Jenova and Sephiroth

FF7Destiny

FF7Destiny

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Once I remember seeing this long explanation that Cloud could of been chasing Jenova all throughout the game. Now I haven't played the game in a way so I might not remember most details, but what I would like to know is whether this is true. I remember fighting her on the ship to Costa Del Sol and you found her arm, and body parts tend to have been left behind. Then of course the 'real' Sephiroth was in the Northern Crater, correct? I think I read that Jenova was capable of using vessels, like the Cetra which drove them mad so maybe she could of controlled Sephiroth?

I'm not sure >.<; Could anyone explain please?
 
They thought they were chasing Sephiroth, but it was really clones of Sephiroth. All of which Sephiroth was controlling, even Jenova.
 
Yeah, it was long being argued whether Cloud and Co. were chasing Jenova using Sephiroth's image, or Sephiroth using Jenova's body shifted in his image. The FFVII Ultimania guide has cleared it up for us. Sephiroth's will overcame Jenova's and thus he gained control of her body, shifted it in his image, trying to get together Meteor.
 
Destiny, Sephiroth controlled Jenova. Ultimania wasn't needed for that. I'm actually not sure what the "debate" was about.

I'll post up the text. I've cut out stuff that doesn't really move the dialogue along. I've bolded the lines that are crucial to pay attention to, and I put notations next to them to explain just what they mean:

Cloud: "Sephiroth!!!"

(They all run forward and confront him. Sephiroth does not turn around.)

“This is the end!”

> “You’re right. This is the end of this body’s usefulness.” –This is the first indication (in this text) that, despite the appearance, the figure is not Sephiroth-

(The camera pans all around as they look for Sephiroth. They see no sign; but now there are two jets of smoke. Suddenly, they hear Sephiroth's voice)

> Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master. –This is blatant acknowledgement that Sephiroth is, in fact, the “master”. So the figure is working under Sephiroth-

(Cloud looks around.)

Cloud: "Our...?"

(The camera pans wildly. There are now three jets.)

> Those who carry Jenova's cells...

Cloud: "Master...!?" Of course... Sephiroth. –This is confirmation of the above implication. Sephiroth is the “master”, meaning all who carry Jenova’s cells are supposed to use this reunion to deliver him the Black Materia-

(Cloud’s heart pounds until he caves in, “Sephiroth” strikes at the team. He draws his sword and the battle begins.)

(Boss battle with Jenova-DEATH)

(Once Jenova-DEATH has been defeated, the entire party meets with Cloud at the land-bridge. A small black mass floats where Jenova stood.) –Suggesting that Jenova was the Sephiroth figure. So the fact that the figure acknowledged Sephiroth as "master" means that Jenova works under Sephiroth-

Cloud: "Jenova's cells..."
"...hmm. So that's what this is all about."
"The Jenova Reunion..."

Tifa: "Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we were after?" –Tifa confirming that the figure wasn’t Sephiroth, pointing back to the fact that it was Jenova. Now, the above states that the J-reunion is in progress, but Jenova confesses that the objective of those who carry the cells must deliver the Black Materia to Sephiroth. This means that it's all carried out in his name-
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I don't know if I did the best job explaining, so let me know if you need anything else, or if you'd just like the script snippet to piece it together yourself. They don't spell it out, but you can certainly deduct it all from the text in that scene. This scene is, of course, just as the party reaches the lower level of the crater, prior to the Nibelheim "illusion".
 
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Well Jenova was in the Shinra building and at the same time Sephiroth was in the Norhtern Cave every one here knows this, so you would assume that given there connection Seph was capable of controlling Jenova to a degree through the life stream and given Sephiroth was her son and Jenova's abilty to control beings with her genetic material it stands to reason that Sephiroth was able to reverse this ability and control the Sephiroth clones and his mother to do his bidding through a kind of wireless internet connection.

So wether by choice or not and considering the facts the Sephiroth Cloud and CO were chasing had to be a doppelganger involving Jenova. But remeber it was Jenova's body parts that were left behind so its not so much a question of Sephiroth controlling her but more of a case of him taking over her physical material(body).

Was lm talking in circles there ?
 
It tends to get confusing lol. I was bit "eh" for while with this myself. My ex explained to me it was basically Sephy the whole time, controlling everything. The whole puppet master thing.
 
SapphireStar said:
It tends to get confusing lol. I was bit "eh" for while with this myself. My ex explained to me it was basically Sephy the whole time, controlling everything. The whole puppet master thing.
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Ah, ha. But wasn't Jenova controlling Sephiroth? So she's the REAL puppetmaster, lol.
 
Okay, let me break it down~ That long post you saw was probably mine. :P

Jenova is a shapeshifting alien that comes to the planet on the back of an asteroid, causing the enormous Northern Crater in the game. As you know, this seriously wounds the planet. In any case, Jenova encounters the Cetra, who have the ability to communicate with nature, or Gaia, as they call it. This is the actual 'soul' of the entire planet itself.

Whatever Jenova's intentions were, we'll never know. There's lot of conjecture on that which I won't get into. What happened is that Jenova began to wage war on the Cetra, and very nearly won, which tells you something of its power. In the end, however, the Cetra manage to kill Jenova and dumped its body in a chasm. However, the Cetra population had been decimated to the point where it would never recover. Thus, the death of the Cetra.

Note that Jenova is dead. When things die, they generally don't come back. Ever.

2,000 years later, Shinra company finds this body and they think it is the body of an Ancient -- or a Cetra -- and they try to create a Cetra to lead them to the Promised Land which is supposed to be full of Mako. The belief was that -- though the Cetra are (nearly) extinct -- the ability to communicate with Gaia is specific to their 'species', physically embedded in their genetic code. This isn't really true, but that isn't the point. The results were that several 'clones' and Sephiroth was made as a result of these experiments.

Now, there is an important property of Jenova that you must know. In order to shape-shift, Jenova has complete control over every single cell of its body. Each cell is, in a way, aware and can respond to commands. However, when Jenova was killed, the cells went dormant and did not change shape. (If these cells can survive a vaccuum, then they won't die from mere lack of movement.) All that is needed to make the body of Jenova move is 2 things. 1) there must be some sort of energy in the body and 2) there has to be a mind behind that energy that can issue commands to the cells and tell them to move. Keep this in mind when I come back to it later.

Now, whereas the other 'clones' simply had dead Jenova cells injected into them, Sephiroth differed in that the cells were actually spliced into his DNA while he was in the womb. The nature of the Jenova cells is such that they could react a little when in a life-energy filled environment, and thus caused several debilitating side-effects to the SOLDIERS that were experimented on.

So lets fast-forward to Nibleheim. There, Sephiroth discovers experiments on humans in an attempt to create... something. He puts two-and-two together and he realizes that he has the whole history of what a 'created experiment' is. This is when he flips out.

Afterward, Sephiroth discovered legends about Jenova, but only scraps, and he interpreted them very badly. Remember, he thought he was an Ancient! We all know that Jenova is an alien, who tried to slaughter the Ancients! A vast difference. Sephiroth was on a mission to get revenge, supposedly because the 'traitors' (as he called Cloud) that rose up and made permanent establishments severed the treasured connection with the planet. In truth, his mission is to get revenge on those who created him for their personal gain. Sephiroth's story is sad in the fact that he was never accorded the affection and attention every soul desires. His was not the creation of love but the he was the creation of profit.

He is an animal, bred to lead Shinra to their 'Promised Land' so they can set up more Mako reactors to get rich. Sephiroth knew this. This is why he was so vehement when he swore Shinra would never find the Promised Land. It wasn't because he wanted to protect it--it's because he wanted to spite Shinra. He was operating entirely for his own goals.

Of course, that is the true reason, but he says differently, to cast himself in a righteous, noble light. It takes a bit of investigating to find the real reason, though. (I'll repeat it again, because this is the tricky part.) He has found an enemy for him to hate (the ones who opposed the 'Cetra' and which he accuses Cloud and the rest of humanity to be a part of) and goes on a mission to turn himself into a god of sorts so he can destroy them. It's important to remember that Sephiroth believes himself to be a Cetra himself and that Jenova is a Cetra as well! This is not true. That is where most of the confusion comes from.

In any case, he decides he's going to get revenge and starts with Cloud's hometown. Needless to say, that was a bad idea. Cloud, who is just a grunt at this point, confronts Sephiroth on a catwalk above the exposed Mako in the very bowels of the reactor. This is the famous scene where Sephiroth spears Cloud on his ridiculously long sword and Cloud tosses him over the side into the burning Mako.

At this point, Sephiroth is physically dead. Nothing can survive a dip in boiling energy. The body isn't destroyed, but Sephiroth himself is actually DEAD. However, through sheer force of will, his soul does NOT merge with the Lifestream as it is supposed to. There is a very malevolent mind wandering throughout the Lifestream and he's looking for a way to get back to the real world.

This is where Jenova comes back in. Its body is still sitting in Shinra headquarters. Now, remember what I said about the cells of Jenova's body? That the needed energy and control in order to move? Think of the cells as computers; they all have a basic programming they will run but will do nothing unless told to. In this way, it was easy for Sephiroth to simply recharge the battery and enter commands. Since Sephiroth's very soul/consciousness/whathaveyou is sitting the the Lifestream, it wasn't hard for him to do.

However, it must have taken him 7 years to achieve this because it is 7 years until Jenova suddenly appears to 'come to life' and destroy everything in the Shinra building. This is the part of the game just after the characters get caught by Shinra and this is what causes all of the cell doors to open for no apparent reason.

Now, note that the body of Jenova is gone from the tank it was held in -- and yet, survivors scattered around the place say that it was Sephiroth who killed everyone and it is Sephiroth's sword found sticking from the back of the Shinra president. That is because, after 7 years of 'recharging' the cells of Jenova, Sephiroth finally took control of the alien shapshifter body and made it shapeshift to look like him.

This is very important. Sephiroth's body forever remains at the Norther Crater, where it was washed up by the flow of Lifestream trying to heal the crater-wound. The Sephiroth you see throughout the game is actually a part of Jenova's body that has simply been morphed to look like Sephiroth. This is a huge factor that makes people confused and is important to understand.

Anyways. So all the times you see Sephiroth appear and a Jenova battle comes immediately afterward, that body you see is actually a small piece of Jenova. He drops a random piece of Jenova for you to fight and then zooms away. The Sephiroth that came out of nowhere and stabbed Aerith? That was actually a part of Jenova's body.

NOW, it is also important to remember that, when you get to the temple of the Ancients, and you touch the pool for a 'story' to be told to you by the planet and a ghostly image of Sephiroth arrives -- THAT is the real soul of Sephiroth. Since the 'story' is being told in the Lifestream, and since his soul is in the Lifestream, that was Sephiroth actually talking to the characters in the Lifestream.



So, in conclusion, there is no 'vessel' in the game. When Sephiroth says that 'this is the end of this body's usefullness' as provided in the scripts above, he means that the puppet that is Jenova's dead body is no longer needed to manipulate the material world.

All of this was done, if you recall, so that Sephiroth may get the Black Materia and use it to create a wound so great in the planet that all of the Lifestream would be in one place at one time, likely killing the planet in the process. Sephiroth intended to use that concentrated power to become a being so powerful as to be godlike and thus create a haven where there are no 'humans' that he STILL BELIEVES killed the Cetra. His warped view of the world is quite disturbing, but there you have it.

So, Jenova is NOT controlling anyone -- if anything, ITS body is being controlled by SEPHIROTH. Not the other way around. Jenova is dead, but it is a very versatile tool that Sephiroth used to manipulate things in the real world so he could get the other tool -- the Black Materia -- to further his goals. And he came damn close to accomplishing them, too.

So! Any further questions?

P.S. Now all my free time is gone after typing this. I better get some rep or cookies for this.
 
Holy worth-reading-wall-of-text, batman!

Holy worth-reading-wall-of-text, batman!

Dragon Mage, is all that info only from FFVII and not other compilation? Because I am VERY picky about which info to believe. And if you got all that info from just the original FFVII, than I believe it, man.

So, Jenova is NOT controlling anyone -- if anything, ITS body is being controlled by SEPHIROTH.
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Damn, that some freaky shit, man.

EDIT: And since you seem to know a lot about this stuff. Do you think Cetra/Ancients can do the same as Sephiroths done? Why and how??
 
LOL, Yep, that's all from FFVII. Seeing as I've only played DoC (which doesn't really add much content to the history of the actual game) and AC is really just going off the basic rules of the game and so doesn't add anything new, yes, I got that all from the game.

All you really need is an understanding of how the rules of the setting work, and then things begin to piece together. It's all there for you to see, it just isn't there in a way easily understandable. ;)

And since you seem to know a lot about this stuff. Do you think Cetra/Ancients can do the same as Sephiroths done? Why and how??
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The Cetra/Ancients could not do what Sephiroth has done for a few simple reasons. The first being, there is no more Jenova to go around. Only that one alien body has that 'recharge and reprogram' capability in the cells, and as we saw in AC, all of the remaining cells of Jenova have been utterly destroyed -- which is the only way to really be rid of it. So even if the Cetra/Ancients in the Lifestream wanted to manipulate the material world, they couldn't.

Also, it takes a mind and will of incredible strength to not merge within the Lifestream. Sephiroth is one of those very few and very rare persons capable of it. Aerith may be one of those as well, but I think that is unlikely since she has it 'in' with the way the Lifestream works, if you know what I mean. Last Cetra gets special treatment. ;)

As we saw in the Temple of the Ancients, as the Cetra souls that were left behind and conscious to maintain the temple, they lost the ability to speak for being alone so long. Finding the soul of one Cetra that hasn't melded into the Lifestream and still has the capability to act and manipulate is nigh impossible since all Cetra considered themselves of being 'one with the planet' and eventually returning to the planet was a goal.

And fourth, no Cetra would feel the need to manipulate the material world. If Aerith and her mother are any example, or Red and the Cosmo Canyon Elders are, then the Cetra were very contemplative and peaceful people. And seeing as how the planet alone seems quite capable of taking action itself when it comes to protection (seeing as how it made the Weapons) there would be no real reason for the Cetra to step out and take direct action on the events of the material world.

That all make sense?
 
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