Can Cetra Ancients do what Sephiroth does?

[The Witch]

As said in the title, I wanna know if Ancients/Cetra can do what Sephiroth was able to do--come in contact with the living and etc.

I know in AC, Aerith takes some kind of form, talks to children, and even touches the living. But how? Is it the same way as Sephiroth?

Over in THIS thread Dragon Mage tried to explain it. But there's something I'd like to point out.

In AC, Aerith is shown talking to children and even touching others(physically). She obviously is manipulating something. But what?

"He(Sephiroth) was apparently going to use separate entities to be his agents. The woman(Aerith) asked herself if she could do the same." -Case of Lifestream: White

That is the short novel that takes place right before AC. And there we see Aerith thinking about how if it is possibly for her to use something(or someone)as her agents. She then decides against it and solidfies(somehow)her real body.

Sephiroth as we know, had to form Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz to do his dirty work. But Aerith, she just formed out of nowhere one day.

So, how the hell does Aerith come in contact with the living and basically do what Sephiroth can?

 

[Davey Gaga]

I don't think that they do it in the same way. Sephiroth can live on because of his connection to Jenova and the relevant experiments regarding cells and his legacy. It was written somewhere that, in essence, Sephiroth can never truly be defeated until every last Jenova cell has been eradicated. He is not really dead and never can be. You could say that since Cloud also contains some Jenova cells, Sephiroth can never die until Cloud does (as well as every other remnant).

Whereas Sephiroth is still connected with life through the Jenova Project, Aerith is dead. Stone cold dead. She is, however, an ancient -- she shares a special connection with the Planet. The only way that I can justify it is that she uses the lifestream as a means communicating with people. The Planet's very source of energy sounds like a plausible method of accomplishing the unaccomplishable, especially for one so connected to the Planet that she can hear it crying.

 

[The Witch]

I don't think that they do it in the same way. Sephiroth can live on because of his connection to Jenova and the relevant experiments regarding cells and his legacy. It was written somewhere that, in essence, Sephiroth can never truly be defeated until every last Jenova cell has been eradicated. He is not really dead and never can be. You could say that since Cloud also contains some Jenova cells, Sephiroth can never die until Cloud does (as well as every other remnant).

Whereas Sephiroth is still connected with life through the Jenova Project, Aerith is dead. Stone cold dead. She is, however, an ancient -- she shares a special connection with the Planet. The only way that I can justify it is that she uses the lifestream as a means communicating with people. The Planet's very source of energy sounds like a plausible method of accomplishing the unaccomplishable, especially for one so connected to the Planet that she can hear it crying.

That still doesn't explain how Aerith solidfies and comes in physical contact with people.



She has to be accomplishing that SOMEWAY, but how?

 

[Davey Gaga]

I don't think she does. Since she dies, you never see her roam the planet. Cloud only ever sees her in this Rinoa-esque flower patch in AC, and any other time you see her just has a black or white background (probably suggesting "she's there with us" rather than saying she's actually standing on the ground).

 

[The Witch]

I don't think she does. Since she dies, you never see her roam the planet. Cloud only ever sees her in this Rinoa-esque flower patch in AC, and any other time you see her just has a black or white background (probably suggesting "she's there with us" rather than saying she's actually standing on the ground).

That's what I thought too. But Aerith touches Cloud and then talks and touches the living too.

During the Church scene, Aerith is talking to a few kids and touches their hands. And then she boosts Cloud up with the rest of the gang, so what?

So I do think it's more than just spiritual.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

Metaphysical debates aside. If a person has a strong enough emotion or a desire unfulfilled that is strong enough to bond them to the world even after death this can cause "spirits" to come into contact with the living.Thats as far as humans are concerned, as for the Ancients one can only assume its a more controlled ability to be semi corporeal and interact with world.

And dont forget we only see the occurence of her being corporeal in the church. you might say the the place of her spiritual power, a place where Aeris can manifest her physical form for a short time. How can we know the spiritual abilities of a race when you meet one(Aeris/Aerith) and a bastardized version of one(Sephiroth) and very little information is given othe than that in the Lab at The Snow Villiage......The Icicle Inn?

 

[Dionysos]

I always just assumed that what we saw in Advent Children was the spirit of Aerith and nothing more. She was was able to help out from beyond the grave but I don't think we are meant to think that she is physically present. The scene goes white or dreamy when she appears which suggests that she is reaching out to the mind of Cloud, and maybe also to the children who she might have known before her death or just decided to contact anyway as she loves children.

The same is also true with Zack, who is seen standing in the doorway of the church in one of the last scenes as Aerith walks off towards him. He's a spirit of some kind then as well. I don't think anybody but Cloud could see them in those scenes (aside from the children perhaps) which suggests that they weren't physically present.

Aerith however perhaps has a lot of power in the afterlife, as she was able to gather the power of the lifestream and all of those in it to defeat meteor, so perhaps she is able to use the dead to help Cloud and his party do other things also.

As for the Cetra and Sephiroth they are different entirely. Sephiroth was not created with the cells of an ancient, instead he has that of an alien. Jenova was thought to be an ancient when they first found her body but then they realised that she was not of this earth. Sephiroth can manipulate those containing the cells of Jenova, and also Jenova herself who he could make transform into his own image. So as long as Jenova cells exist there is something that Sephiroth can manipulate. He doesn't control the lifestream like Aerith, but would much rather infect it with Jenova cells which he can control. He's the opposite to Aerith and is manipulating alien cells and trying to invade the planet's native lifestream.

The Cetra however had links to the lifestream and were well connected to the will of the earth. Aerith being descended from these people also is connected to the sounds of the planet and this is likely how she was, in death, able to direct the lifestream, and also perhaps how she was able to appear every now and then as a ghost.

 

[The Witch]

But she doesn't just appear as a "ghost" she literally appears, takes Cloud's hand like the rest of his friends do and boosts him up. Then she is seen talking to those few children and takes something--she's obviously not a ghost. Otherwise she wouldn't be able to physically touch anyone.

Sephiroth gets to solidify and physically touch Cloud--that, we have explinations for.

Aerith's obviously solidifying and taking her original form by herself(something Sephiroth couldn't do), but...how?

Nothing explains how Aerith is able to physically touch people and talk to them. The side novels tells us that Aerith knows she can, but doesn't say how.

Think about it, both Sephiroth and Aerith have strong wills--if Sephiroth's will is enough for him to keep coming back, what if Aerith's will is enough to keep her around? The girl did manipulate the lifestream and use it at her will. Remember at the end of Final Fantasy VII? Holy was fighting meteor and BOTH were tearing up Midgar? Lifestream was led by Aerith and she was basically physically holding back meteor. In fact, materia, which originates from the lifestream can potentially physically cure or damage a person. Not to mention summon materia, which can create a physical being for as long as the summoner is concentrating.(Bahamut Sin from AC being a great example)

Now take Aerith, a person that can control the rawest of this power AT WILL. I would think producing a physical body for herself at least for a moment would be very possible.

Would that explain how she does it?

 

[Dionysos]

That would depend upon this series' definition of a ghost and the boundaries and rules that a ghost has. The rules haven't been made clear, but if we were to take the two chess ghosts from the Gold Saucer in the original game as evidence then ghosts can touch objects too. Not sure if I'd rely on that for evidence though as they were essentially attractions and I'm not sure if they were meant to be real or not.

Personally I think that Aerith helping Cloud by giving him a boost at the end of the Bahamut Sin sequence was just symbolic, or if something more it was that she was giving him an energy boost from beyond the grave. If she did take a physical form at that point then it was only for a few seconds before she faded away, but I think that if anyone else was to view Cloud at that point they would not see Aerith but would just see him flying through the air. I believe that she was meant to be present then, but not in her body, but perhaps her energy was which was enough to propel Cloud the full distance towards Bahamut Sin.

As for the interaction with the children I cannot remember it much, but I know that it happens. Perhaps it is just because she wanted to speak to them too and allowed them to see her, rather than her being present in a real physical and more permanent form.

 

[The Witch]

That's a good answer. So, are you saying Aerith can only take physical form or touch the living when it's Cloud?

 

[Dionysos]

Perhaps. The connection with Cloud is special in that she continually speaks to him and appears in visions (physical manifestations or not) to him throughout Advent Children. Other people can feel her presence too (Marlene, and I think Tifa makes a comment about it too) and then there is the purifying holy rain that cures to geostigma which she sends out.

Only with Cloud and those children does she seem to appear though (and perhaps she only appears to them as Cloud is also present I think) so I think she must only appear to those she chooses to and for a purpose. Rather than adapting a physical form that she maintains and keeps on the planet, she is still dead but appears every now and then to give Cloud courage and energy, which she has the power to do so both as a person and perhaps by maniuplating the lifestream if she wishes.

She appears, I think, only to select people and that other people that might be present would not see her. I don't think anyone noticed her or Zack at the doorway of the church at the end of the film, for example, and the white light that accompanies Aerith (and acts to focus Cloud on Aerith's presence) suggests that she is still dead and that only Cloud and a few others of her choice can ever see her.

 

[The Witch]

She appears, I think, only to select people and that other people that might be present would not see her. I don't think anyone noticed her or Zack at the doorway of the church at the end of the film, for example, and the white light that accompanies Aerith (and acts to focus Cloud on Aerith's presence) suggests that she is still dead and that only Cloud and a few others of her choice can ever see her.

Yea, that's what I think too. But how Aerith appears and takes form, I guess we'll never know.

 

[Dragon Mage]

As said in the title, I wanna know if Ancients/Cetra can do what Sephiroth was able to do--come in contact with the living and etc.

I know in AC, Aerith takes some kind of form, talks to children, and even touches the living. But how? Is it the same way as Sephiroth?

Over in THIS thread Dragon Mage tried to explain it. But there's something I'd like to point out.

In AC, Aerith is shown talking to children and even touching others(physically). She obviously is manipulating something. But what?

"He(Sephiroth) was apparently going to use separate entities to be his agents. The woman(Aerith) asked herself if she could do the same." -Case of Lifestream: White

That is the short novel that takes place right before AC. And there we see Aerith thinking about how if it is possibly for her to use something(or someone)as her agents. She then decides against it and solidfies(somehow)her real body.

Sephiroth as we know, had to form Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz to do his dirty work. But Aerith, she just formed out of nowhere one day.

So, how the hell does Aerith come in contact with the living and basically do what Sephiroth can?

OH, I didn't know you meant it in THAT way. I thought you meant a Cetra trying to manipulate the living world for a specific, malevolent purpose.

In this context, yes, I think it would likely be possible for Aerith to interact with the living/material world. How, why, we'll probably never know. Most likely, she manages it in the way we'd consider ghosts do. The most wide-held theory for this is that a ghost/spirit/poltergeist/whathaveyou, will draw energy from the surrounding environment in order to physically manifest in some way. (The drawing away of energy from the nearby surroundings results in the famous 'cold spots'.) Since Aerith is technically sitting in a giant pool of energy, this wouldn't be hard for her to do.

Now, consider how interactions between two things work. When you grab a cup, you're not actually touching the cup -- the electrons of your hand are interacting with the electrons of the cup. (Yes, I know, deep physics stuff, I'm a nerd.) So technically, all you're feeling is your electrons pushing back at you as they repel away from the cup's electrons.

So, with this in mind, all Aerith need do is whip up some energy, organize some electrons (likely from the air and using a magnetic field of some sort) and then it would, for all intents and purposes, appear to be her physically manifesting even though she's dead.

However, your mileage may vary with this theory, but it is the most practical one and most likely. Of course, we ARE operating in a fantasy setting, so remember to suspend disbelief.

I seriously doubt that it has anything to do with a 'personal connection' with Cloud or any other character -- Nomura was speaking sentimentally when he said that 'Aerith will live on with Cloud' basically meaning that because someone remembers and holds dear the memory of a departed person, that person will live on in memory (and also in the afterlife thing, but that was kinda hand-waved). Aerith could easily choose to appear to anyone she wanted, but it would have to be some reason for her to do so. The scene in AC where Cloudster is going to the Forgotten City -- that was all Dead People Telepathy collect calling. There's nothing stopping her from doing this same kind of 'call' with Tifa or Red or Barret if she liked -- but none of them were suicidal. :-\ For example, Marlene and Denzel speak of having met her in some fashion, and more than once.

So! All things considered, Aerith could interact with the physical world without having to rely on any ambiguous 'connections' -- there's not enough evidence that I see in the compilation to indicate that Cloud gets any special treatment in this consideration. If anything, the special treatment is on Aerith alone, since she's got the awesome ancient JuJu powers to make this all happen!

 

[The Witch]

Okay, thanks for the reply. So, do you believe Aerith can physically manifest to a solid form that could touch and feel from the living world?

Do you think there's a limit to how long or when she can manifest?

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

Why is Aeris/Aerlith considered an "Ancient" anyway.I'm replaying the game and of course Reno and the Turks are after her and I have fogotten why exactly.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Dance In The Dark:

She could make herself manifest in a physical form.... but only in the way I described. By bending light, electrons, and energy. Could she actually feel anything through this barely-substantial avatar? Hard to say. Maybe she could if she wanted, maybe it just couldn't happen -- at that point, the speculation gets pretty thick.

But can she take the cells from a body, reorganize them to resemble herself, and control it like a Sims? No, I'm quite certain she couldn't do that. She might make a semi-solid avatar in a similar fashion -- like how the Remnants were spun from nothing more than pieces of Sephiroth, Jenova cells, and lots of corrupted Lifestream -- but really, why would she need it? And whose body would she desecrate in order to obtain the cells to build such an avatar? Would these normal human cells even be able to hold together like the Remnants had? Remember, Jenova cells (and by extent, Sephiroths) don't work like normal humans' do. All considering, there's probably no chance she could make a "body" for herself in the material world.

As for how long and when she can manifest, I suppose that depends. Maybe there's no limit to how long she can manifest -- there's certainly nothing that suggests there's a limit. As for when, it strikes me that Aerith -- being of a wise race already -- would know better than to tamper too much with the living; that world is for the living after all, and not the dead. So only when things are really dire, do I think she would intervene.


EDIT:

Why is Aeris/Aerlith considered an "Ancient" anyway.I'm replaying the game and of course Reno and the Turks are after her and I have fogotten why exactly.

Aerith's mother is one of the last surviving members of the Cetra (Or "Ancients" as they're called.) I get the impression that they're not so much a different race (like superhumans or something) but are perfectly normal humans with especially increased ESP -- this grants them the ability to communicate with the souls of living things, including the planet itself. Once they died out, however, the ability to 'hear' the planet was nearly lost. But we know that the planet can speak to whomever it wants, if it wants (i.e. it spoke to Cloud in the reactor during disc 1). The Cetra were so sensitive, they could actually hear the planet without the planet directly wanting to communicate with them. At least, that's the most likely theory. :-\

 

[The Witch]

She could make herself manifest in a physical form.... but only in the way I described. By bending light, electrons, and energy. Could she actually feel anything through this barely-substantial avatar? Hard to say. Maybe she could if she wanted, maybe it just couldn't happen -- at that point, the speculation gets pretty thick.

It's not just her bending the light or something, though. She physically TOUCHES people, like when she grabs Cloud's hand, or speaks to people, or has the wind blow her hair. She's obviously just as phyiscal as any living human, the only difference--she's not alive.

As for how long and when she can manifest, I suppose that depends. Maybe there's no limit to how long she can manifest -- there's certainly nothing that suggests there's a limit. As for when, it strikes me that Aerith -- being of a wise race already -- would know better than to tamper too much with the living; that world is for the living after all, and not the dead. So only when things are really dire, do I think she would intervene.

I agree about that

 

[Harlequin]

It's not just her bending the light or something, though. She physically TOUCHES people, like when she grabs Cloud's hand, or speaks to people, or has the wind blow her hair. She's obviously just as phyiscal as any living human, the only difference--she's not alive.

She isn't alive in the conventional sense no, but in the literal sense I'd say she certainly is. After all, the FFWiki states that the Lifestream is tangible beneath the surface of the world. If that's the case then why couldn't an inhabitant of the lifestream be tangible too?

 

[The Witch]

She isn't alive in the conventional sense no, but in the literal sense I'd say she certainly is. After all, the FFWiki states that the Lifestream is tangible beneath the surface of the world. If that's the case then why couldn't an inhabitant of the lifestream be tangible too?

Is that for real? It says the Lifestream is tangible? I didn't know that Tom. It makes sense that if the lifestream is tangible that she would be too. Wow, thanks for the help, :3

 

[Harlequin]

Wait I might have lied let me do my research...

EDIT:

Yeah these processes would make the lifestream tangible:


The Lifestream, also known as Spirit Energy, is an ethereal substance called Mako that flows in streams just beneath the surface of the Planet.

Mako (魔晄, Makō, lit. "magic light") is the liquid form of the Planet's Lifestream in Final Fantasy VII,