I just thought of something

Ainuudar

Ainuudar

Drow Death Knight
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Alright well most everyone knows about Cloud and his real deal with SOLDIER. This may give a bit away so I will put it in spoiler tags.
Cloud really wasn't in SOLDIER, he was really just a low guard that had Zack's memories infused into his brain. He didn't know that, so he thought he really was an EX-SOLDIER. Thinking he was one of them, he performed like one of them. You saw him in the beggining, he was performing missions like it was nothing, and he was beyond the skills of most of your teamates. So really, Cloud performed as an EX-SOLDIER even though he really wasn't because he thought he was.
Anyone disagree or have anything to add?
 
I agree but not for the reason you impose. You are suggesting that because he was assuming the identity of someone else that it gave him strength because he thought he always had that strength as an ex-solder. In a way you are right... but what it really gave him was confidence. It's why the scene where Cloud throws Sephiroth into the lifestream is so important. Cloud always had the strength but he never had any confidence. Even as a child he was considered dorky and uncool. When he gained confidence in himself, he saw that he was really able to far surpass anyone else. He just never believed he could until he adopted someone else's personality traits who had a confident and almost egotistical personality.
 
The scene where Tifa and Cloud were at the well and he stated, "I'm going to be the greatest, just like Sephiroth..." or something along those lines, he seems pretty confident though. Going into it he must have seemed alright, then something must have blew his confidence out the door which made him goof up and become just a gunman. Then there was the ordeal where he thought he was Zack, there is his confidence again and he was doing anything like it was nothing. After he learned he was a "failed experiment" he was shocked. When he finnaly did push his memories away and defeated Sephiroth, I think he felt relieved, but the memories of him failing his SOLDIER test always haunted him. In Advent Children, even the bit in Dirge of Cerberus, he just didn't act right. He acted like he did AFTER he learned he was the failed experiment.
 
The game knocks you around like a pinball most of the time... but you do know that he was actually a successful experiment, right? That Hojo implanted Jenova and mako cells into many others as well but most of them had incredibly adverse affects to it, thus becoming the "Sephiroth clones". Hojo thought he failed but he didn't realize that the perfect mesh he'd been looking for did exist in Cloud. It also existed in Zack... but he was shot.

As for his aspirations as a kid, that's true for almost any child. Just because he talked big doesn't mean he actually had any confidence at all. My guess is he wanted that to happen more than anything in the world... but never really believed he could make it happen.
 
Well what I ment was when he was told that he was experimented on, it was too much for him to handle. That he was supposed to be another Sephiroth, that Cloud was never ment to be.

I think you're right about when he was a kid. It is every kids' thought to grow up and be a star. I always told myself I would be the starting center-fielder for the Yankees...haha yea right. I never new Zack had Jenova cells injected into his body. I somewhat rushed through the game because I bet my friend 10 bucks that I could beat it in 4 days. I'm going to replay it after I am done replaying X and Tactics. Was it thought that Zack had Jenova cells planted into him in that scene when Cloud and him are in the test tubes under Shinra Mansion? That is where Cloud got all messed up, is that when they put them into Zack as well? That wouldn't really make sence seeing how they shot him right afterwords, and Zack and Cloud would have had such a different reaction to it. Orrrrr was that scene when they put Zack's memories into Cloud's brain? Gahh I'm so confused.
 
Haha, don't feel bad. It's a confusing game.

Zack and Cloud are both exposed to mako and Jenova cells in the Shinra mansion basement. For Cloud it is the first time he has been exposed to either. For Zack, because all SOLDIERs are exposed to mako, the only new substance in his body is the Jenova cells. That is why Cloud is affected so badly and suffers Mako poisoning but Zack has very little adverse affects to the treatment. It's not too complicated when you remember that Zack is the only true SOLDIER there and was already exposed to mako treatments.
 
Ahh ok I think I have it now. Thanks. It is a shame how Zack died from a couple of bullet shots while Cloud survives Super-Nova from Sephiroth. Jeez just throw a freakin' pheonix down on him or something.
 
Heh yea, plot and all. But all I really have to say to that is this. lol And with that... I'm gonna let someone else come in here and start posting their two cents since we've done enough talking back and forth already. xD
 
Hahahah, thats going on my background. Yes well our talking back and forth got me confused, then cleared it all up again. It was worth it.
 
Yes, I have much to add!

 When Cloud was in Niblehiem, he did not reveal himself for who he was for certain reasons, but that's another story. He kept his identity secret until Sephiroth went mad and destroyed the town. Cloud followed him to the reactor where he saw Tifa attack Sephiroth and get badly injured. Cloud than attacked Sephiroth and stabbed him with Zack’s sword. He than ran back to check on Tifa. Sephiroth walked out and Cloud follows him. Sephiroth stabs him through the shoulder, however Cloud manages to throw him off the edge into the reactor. Cloud then passes out from the wound.

Now, if you've read the letter in Tifa's 'room' than this will all be very clear. Shinra soon showed up after Sephiroth had destroyed the town. Hojo ordered to have all the survivors rounded up for experimentation. This includes Cloud and Zack. Tifa, however, was rescued by her instructor and was saved. Anyways, the 'experiment' involves submerging the subject in Mako, which is very deadly.

You probably know all this, but I'll continue for the sake of those that don't. The Mako--Lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news-- for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind. It becomes nearly impossible to sort out one's own memories from the myriad different others that don't belong. If a person likes their life (Zack) then remembering who they are is not much of a problem. If a person doesn't like their life (Cloud) it's very easy to let go of what you don't want to be. This is how Cloud managed to confuse himself as being Zack. He lost his own identity and so created one for himself as something that he had always wanted to be: a member of SOLDEIR. He used Zack in particular because Zack always told him stories of SOLDEIR life.
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Cloud however was fortunate, so to speak, in this aspect. You see, he had something to become, something to latch onto and a story to back it up. The other Sephiroth 'clones' didn't have this and so completely lost themselves; they lost their identity. Their minds were broken and so Sephiroth could easily control them. I'll get back to this later.

The other part of the experiment is injecting the subject with Jenova cells. Now keep in mind that Shinra wasn't trying to create a 'Sephiroth clone' but actually a clone of an Ancient. This is because the Shinra needed an Ancient to lead them to the Promised Land, which they thought was full of Mako. Shinra injected them with Jenova cells because they thought that Jenova was an Ancient, which couldn't be more wrong. Anyways.... The Jenova cells transform, if you will, the cells around them; a mutation. These mutations can incorporate some of Jenova's powers to a limited extent. One could call Cloud a mutant and that would be correct. The Mako submerging is required to weaken the mind and thus the body's defense. With the defenses down, the cells can move in and 'attack' the normal cells. This is why Zack didn't change whereas Cloud did, because Zack was able to throw off the effects of the Mako and his body responded to the Jenova cells and killed them.

However, this experiment was interrupted, otherwise it would have been successful. Zack managed to break out and free Cloud as well. And as you know, Zack was killed but Cloud was left to die.

Now I'll get back to the part about the controlling the 'clones'. It must be made clear that Sephiroth is half-Jenova, so to speak. He is a half alien. There is a particular trait about this alien that must be brought up. This alien species can control every single cell individually. Ever seen that movie 'The Thing'? Same situation. The alien can control every cell. This also allows it to change shape at will. Since Sephiroth is a 'member' of this alien species, he retains the same trait of being able to control all of his cells. Now, it must also be made clear that Jenova is [/FONT]thoroughly [FONT=&quot]dead. However, Sephiroth can control the cells of his dead 'mother'. That includes the cells inside the 'clones'. So, Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells inside the 'clones' and Cloud to make them do what he wants.
(the 'Sephiroth' you see in the game--it isn't actually THE Sephiroth. It's actually the body of Jenova that Sephiroth shape-changed to look like him. The real Sephiroth is actually diffused within the Lifestream.)

With the clones it would be easy, just control their minds. With Cloud it would be a little trickier. Sephiroth had to manipulate the already messed up memories Cloud has, to make him believe one thing or another. Namely, that he was nothing more than a clone and that he never had a name, etc. As you can imagine this would be a huge blow to Cloud and resulted in him giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth. However, the plunge into the Lifestream allowed Cloud, with Tifa's help, to find a memory of his own that wouldn’t be susceptible to corruption. Basically it was the memory of why Cloud went to join SOLDEIR, but like I said, that's another story. The truth is revealed and Cloud finds himself in the end.

P.S. I have no idea why my font is acting so weird.
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lol Yea, your font is the first thing I was going to mention. First off, that's a very good synopsis of what occurred during the game. A lot of it I already knew and really didn't need to be said for this discussion but it's still good to see someone that knows up from down when it comes to this game. It was a good read.

I only have a few questions or comments about that entire thing. First off, why did you say he was struck in the shoulder with the masamune? To me it looked like Cloud was impaled in the gut. It doesn't make much of a difference but I really couldn't tell from the angle it was shown... so I'm wondering why you were so specific.

Also, I was under the impression that when Cloud escaped from the Shinra Mansion with Zack, took on the persona of Zack when he was kneeling over Zack's dead body at the edge of Midgar. That he adopted the memories of Zack because he was someone whom Cloud envied and he was too confused from the mako poisoning to decipher his own past from that of Zack's.

The only two points I can come up with that negate your very logical and interesting theory are that if Cloud would have taken memories at random from the lifestream, he would have the memories of many more people than just Zack. And also, Cloud only was able to mesh certain aspects of Zacks life into his own. In other words, only things that he knew about Zack (member of SOLDIER) or were told to him by Zack (mercenary aspirations) were things that he incorporated into himself. He did not incorporate Zack's memories about his parents or anything like that lest he would have remembered them when he traveled to Gonzaga.

EDIT: Gongaga or Gonzaga? One's a USA university... the other is a fictional town that once was home to a large mako reactor that went ka-splodie
 
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Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it and I worked very hard on it. I have another essay explaining what Jenova is and it's role in the game.

To answer your questions;

I said he was struck in the shoulder because that's what it looked like to me. It's kinda hard, with all the polygon shapes, and the collision is a little off, but it appeared to me he was stabbed high in the chest and slightly to the left. I was specific because some people wonder why he didn't die from the attack; the answer is, it simply wasn't a fatal blow or vulnerable spot.
Also, I was under the impression that when Cloud escaped from the Shinra Mansion with Zack, took on the persona of Zack when he was kneeling over Zack's dead body at the edge of Midgar. That he adopted the memories of Zack because he was someone whom Cloud envied and he was too confused from the mako poisoning to decipher his own past from that of Zack's.
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On this I completely agree. However, there is much debate over how he mixed up identities and so I avoided the subject entirely to prevent any debating. That post is supposed to give answers, not make more questions.
The only two points I can come up with that negate your very logical and interesting theory are that if Cloud would have taken memories at random from the lifestream, he would have the memories of many more people than just Zack. And also, Cloud only was able to mesh certain aspects of Zacks life into his own. In other words, only things that he knew about Zack (member of SOLDIER) or were told to him by Zack (mercenary aspirations) were things that he incorporated into himself. He did not incorporate Zack's memories about his parents or anything like that lest he would have remembered them when he traveled to Gonzaga.

EDIT: Gongaga or Gonzaga? One's a USA university... the other is a fictional town that once was home to a large mako reactor that went ka-splodie
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Yes, that is what I said/meant in not so many words. "[FONT=&quot]This is how Cloud managed to confuse himself as being Zack. He lost his own identity and so created one for himself as something that he had always wanted to be: a member of SOLDEIR. He used Zack in particular because Zack always told him stories of SOLDEIR life."

Basically, when Cloud lost his identity, he made one that he had always wanted. He used Zack's stories and Zack himself to make this new identity for himself. He did this because this was where he drew all his knowledge about being in SOLDIER from. Essentially, he took applied these stories to himself as well as the persona of the only SOLDIER he knew. Not only that, but Zack was the kind of person Cloud had always wanted to be: Confident, successful, well-liked.

So, when you put that all together, Zack was the epitome of what Cloud had always wanted to be. So, in short, Cloud took on Zack's identity almost entirely.

And I didn't say he took Zack's memories. Just that he emulated Zack himself. The memories in the Lifestream flooded his mind, making him unable to tell who he was. Those were the only memories he ever absorbed.

I hope this answers all your questions!! Feel free to ask more!

P.S. and it's Gongaga btw. :D
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Dragon Mage said:
[FONT=&quot]And I didn't say he took Zack's memories. Just that he emulated Zack himself. The memories in the Lifestream flooded his mind, making him unable to tell who he was. Those were the only memories he ever absorbed. [/FONT]
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Alright I'm still a little confused on this. I remember when Cloud and Tifa were in the lifestream trying to sort out Cloud's life. But you're saying when Cloud was in the lifestream, THATS when he adopted all of Zack's memories? Cloud thought he was Zack a long time before that.
 
No, he didn't absorb Zack's memories at all. I'm talking about when he was in the Mako at the reactor; that's when the Lifestream memories flooded his mind.

But he never absorbed Zack's memories. He just acted like Zack.
 
Ahh alright. The lifestream kinda reminds me of the Gaurdian Forces in Final Fantasy VIII. The lifestream has all these memories that end up in your mind, and you forget all your own memories. The GFs plant themselves in your brain and make you forget your past as well.
 
Cloud didn't absorb any memories, nor was he "infused" with them. In every scene where Cloud plays the role that we learn is actually Zack, the REAL Cloud is always there. In the truck, when Sephiroth and Zack are talking, Cloud is the nervous Soldier who keeps looking around. He's there in Nibelhiem, too.

Cloud merely projected himself onto Zack, because Zack was everything he wished he was.

Another contention I'm having here...wasn't Cloud in SOLDIER anyway? I understand that he wasn't SOLDIER 1st Class, as he boasts early in the game, but I was sure he was in SOLDIER anyway. There is a marked difference between 1st Class and the rest, am I right?
 
You know, I'm confused as well. I don't know if he was in SOLDIER or not...I do know he never made it in SOLDIER 1st class. But I've always thought he was just a mere Elite Guard...is that part of SOLDIER...? =/

Now, about this whole Zack's memory thing...if Cloud merely projected himself onto Zack, why did it seem like he had no idea that what he's been saying to everyone is actually Zack's possible memories/traits/persona?

I mean, did he have any inkling that he was almost lying to everyone...? Or did Zack's persona just took over Cloud's overall character and he had no idea that that was the case anymore?

I remember that Tifa confronted him about being in Nibelheim with Sephiroth and he said that yes, he was...but was he actually remembering it as "Zack's persona" or the real him? Sorry, I'm still at a loss here. >.<
 
It's a whole psycological mess that he was put through. Cloud was in a really weak state both physically and mentally when he and Zack escaped Nibelheim. Zack basically told Cloud his version of what happened. Now because Cloud was in such a weak state, many of the stories Zack had told him stayed with him, and he began to imagine that he had done all that Zack had done; that he had lived Zack's life. This type of thing sort of combined both Zack's personality with his own.

So Basically to sum it up. whenever Cloud thought back , he was actually remembering Zack's stories from Zack's point of view.
 
Cloud didn't absorb any memories, nor was he "infused" with them. In every scene where Cloud plays the role that we learn is actually Zack, the REAL Cloud is always there. In the truck, when Sephiroth and Zack are talking, Cloud is the nervous Soldier who keeps looking around. He's there in Nibelhiem, too.

Cloud merely projected himself onto Zack, because Zack was everything he wished he was.

Another contention I'm having here...wasn't Cloud in SOLDIER anyway? I understand that he wasn't SOLDIER 1st Class, as he boasts early in the game, but I was sure he was in SOLDIER anyway. There is a marked difference between 1st Class and the rest, am I right?
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Yes, he did absorb memories from the Mako. That's what Mako poisoning is: when someone is so fuddled by all the memories in their mind they don't know who they are or where they are--they are utterly lost. However, I don't see how your statement that he didn't absorb memories relates to him being present at Niblehiem...

Cloud was not in SOLDIER. NEVER. He tried, but failed, and was swept into the washout group; namely the little weak men they give guns. This crushed Cloud and he wasn't too fond of life at that time. Zack was in 1st class; Cloud was in a lower class and yes there is a difference.

When Cloud lost his identity from the memories flooding his mind, he created a whole new life for himself, a life that he always wanted. He had stories (which Zack told him) to back this 'new life' up, so it worked. He is the only Mako poisoning survivor to do this. When he did this, he completely forgot anything that contradicted his dream life, if you will. This means, him not being in 1st class, him and Zack being attacked (remember, he didn't know Zack at the beginning of the game) and the like. He acted like Zack because Zack was the only SOLDIER that Cloud had contact with; thus Zack was his impression of what a SOLDIER acts like/ should be. So that's why he acts like Zack.

I hope this helps.
 
Yeah, that all makes pretty good sense. Cloud was the (low ranking) soldier who went around with Zack, hence that scene from the movie (and the game) where their sitting on the back of the truck and zack says: "So what are you gona do once you get back to midgar?"
 
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