Inconsistencies

eisprinz

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I liked Last Order considerably better than Advent Children. However, I couldn't stand the fact that it's subtly, but profoundly inconsistent with the game canon.

The biggest inconsistency that would actually have greatly changed the game's plot: Tifa talks to Cloud at the Mako reactor.

It's very important for Tifa to not have known for sure that Cloud had come back to Nibelheim during the incident five years before the game. Sephiroth gains much of his power by manipulating Cloud, which is done through a combination of Jenova-cell control, as well as a good-ol'-fashioned mind-fck.

Sephiroth causes Cloud to question his identity by showing proof that he was never a Soldier and has merely acquired Zack's memories. Tifa cannot refute this evidence because she truly thinks that only Zack had come to Nibelheim.

If Tifa had been able to validate that Cloud had indeed been at Nibelheim five years prior, she would've possibly been able to prevent Sephiroth from persuading Cloud that he was merely a clone. However, as she was unconscious in the game, this dilemma remains a moot point of argument until the climax of Tifa resolving Cloud's - as well as her own - memories of their hometown of Nibelheim.

Thus, in order to preserve the game's validity, Tifa should not have talked to Cloud, or perhaps should have appeared delirious, thus causing her not to remember, or to believe she remembered incorrectly.

The only function of this change: to add sentimentality and more human element to the plot, but also there's the mark of fan service. I like Cloti, but not at the price of a weak plot.

My other annoyance: Sephiroth jumping of his own free will.

In the game, Cloud is impaled, but grabs the sword in his chest, and to the General's surprise, launches Sephiroth into the depths of the Mako reactor. In LO, Cloud does get impaled and also surprisingly overpowers Sephiroth, but instead of Cloud tossing him over the edge, he jumps of his own accord.

While this doesn't affect game canon, it does greatly weaken the impact of the scene. The point of that sequence is to show the strength of Cloud's determination and the fury of his revenge being able to overcome even the Great General Sephiroth. In Last Order, by showing Sephiroth jumping of his own accord, it allows Sephiroth to keep some of his own pride, while weakening Cloud's character.

And the only reason that scenario writers would want Sephiroth to keep some of his dignity is to appease the large amount of Sephiroth fans out there by trying to further his famed "badass-itude". *gag* They are trying to preserve his status amongst fans as a god-like being who is never weak, but ironically this weakens him as a character, by elevating him beyond human empathy.

Last Order, in my opinion, show much more respect to the original video game than Advent Children, but still contains glaring problems regarding fan service.
 
Yeah when I watched it I was annoyed but both those changes especially Tifa talking to Cloud, the only way they can mend this inconsistence is by Tifa possibly having Amnesia after recovering from in Midgar or not truly remembering talking to Cloud because she was hurt so badly.

I didn't like the fact Sephiroth jumped in, it just made Cloud look weak and his characterisation suffered cause of it.
 
I can't really see much of an argument. I did like Lost Order solely because it reenacted one of my favorite chapters from the game. I think that any of the sequels and side stories that spawn from FFVII should be taken with a grain of salt. Even though the actual game is poorly translated, I think it still gives us more insight than any of the sequels can, even with the added clarifications.
 
Yup yup

I can't really see much of an argument. I did like Lost Order solely because it reenacted one of my favorite chapters from the game. I think that any of the sequels and side stories that spawn from FFVII should be taken with a grain of salt. Even though the actual game is poorly translated, I think it still gives us more insight than any of the sequels can, even with the added clarifications.

Yeah, I did like Last Order as a whole (unlike Advent Children), but the two problems I cited significantly weaken continuity between the game and compilation, which is pretty foolish.

It's really just annoying that monetary returns and fan service control the direction of these things, rather than raw creative decisions. This problem, in my opinion is the biggest flaw of Square Enix as of right now (Disney too, but I'll not get into that). I think that the FFVII Compilation, as well as the FFXIII ploy with all the different games (Agito, Versus, etc.), is more driven by profit rather than an actual desire the create an innovative concept which is contrary to the state of the company when FFVII was first created.

Basically, if Square really wants to create an awesome game like FFVII, they need to stop kowtowing to fans and just do what they did in the nineties.
 
lol I went on a big rant somewhere about these inconsistencies but yea, they really bug me. There are a bunch of mistakes in this clip. Some of them you can kind of justify but the majority of them are just flat out wrong. And no matter what anyone says, I'm never going to take the crap that was produced in this film OVER what I saw in the game itself. IE - Sephiroth jumping into the mako stream
 
I guess you can say that the cannon is the game and not any of the spin offs however in my eyes the whole compilation is cannon even though I'd rather some parts weren't and this is what bugs me with the errors.Even though Crisis Core is centered around Zack, I was wondering if they would include the Cloud/Tifa moment and which version would they go for LO or the original game
 
Canon or not...

I guess you can say that the cannon is the game and not any of the spin offs however in my eyes the whole compilation is cannon even though I'd rather some parts weren't and this is what bugs me with the errors.Even though Crisis Core is centered around Zack, I was wondering if they would include the Cloud/Tifa moment and which version would they go for LO or the original game


As irrational as it is, I consider parts of the Compilation to be canon, but not all of it.

I don't consider the Sephiroth clones to be canon, because I perceived them as pure fan service (a dirty and fast reason to cause conflict and eye-candy fight scenes, as well as a deus ex machina conveyance for a Sephiroth cameo).

Neither do I consider the survival of Rufus nor Tseng to be canon, simply because they really don't have to survive. I can't see why Square-Enix did what they did - in any case, it was lame.

I do consider Denzel and Geostigma to be canon, as well the general recounted events of "On the Way to a Smile" to be canon, as they actually are more cohesive and respectful to the game (since they seemed to be created to bridge the gaps between the game and AC, this was necessary).

I haven't played nor learned much about BC, CC, nor DC, and frankly probably won't as I'm afraid to see the fandom get butchered any further.
 
But with Dirge of Cerberus which is considered cannon, it plays on from all the compliation.I like the Loz/Kada/Yazoo villainy so I consider that cannon, while I hate deep-ground and genesis but they are considered cannon especially with Crisis Core coming out. So I just have to accept the fact that Genesis may be part of a sequel from DoC and FFVII.
 
Canon

But with Dirge of Cerberus which is considered cannon, it plays on from all the compliation.I like the Loz/Kada/Yazoo villainy so I consider that cannon, while I hate deep-ground and genesis but they are considered cannon especially with Crisis Core coming out. So I just have to accept the fact that Genesis may be part of a sequel from DoC and FFVII.

Well, all of the Compilation is pretty much canon in the official sense, no matter how I feel.

What I mean is that I'm not accepting certain parts as my own view of what fits with the original game canon or not, in terms of the tone, general thematic elements, consistency within the game-verse, etc.

So yes, Kadaj, etc. are canon, but I don't think they would have existed based on Square's original creativity - they are only borne out of the need for fan service. Therefore, they don't count in my personal view of canon.
 
The one that really annoyed me was Sephiroth jumping into the Mako reactor instead of Cloud throwing him in. I always thought that by showing Cloud throw Sephiroth in showed that he was always stronger than Sephiroth and made the one on one fight at the end of the game more believable.

I think Square was just catering to the Sephiroth fanboys by trying to make him more badass. *rollseyes*
 
They aren't inconsistencies. They're retcons. That's how it officially happened now. The same bigwigs of FF7 oversaw LO and said all the changes were intentional. You may not like the changes, but they stand.
 
Yes I agree they are changes. You can call it a change if it is different from the "original" story. Yes the changes do stand as you have pointed out. SE did make them intentionally and because they made them they are official CHANGES. capish?
 
Well, maybe I'm wrong, but rather than calling them changes, I remember seeing an interview stating that the inconsistencies were considered "interpretations" of the original plot.

Which is kind of a lame way to make either option stand on its own.

But if they've officially marked these as alterations to the "official canon", then that's pretty lame.
 
That's just stupid though. They can't go back and change plot points in a prequel. It kind of cheapens the original story and it still comes across as an inconsistancy. They were obviously whoring out on Sephiroth's popularity when they decided that he jumped in rather than have Cloud throw him in.

And not everyone is going to watch Last Order so I would expect that the orginal game would be what's cannon.
 
That's just stupid though. They can't go back and change plot points in a prequel. It kind of cheapens the original story and it still comes across as an inconsistancy. They were obviously whoring out on Sephiroth's popularity when they decided that he jumped in rather than have Cloud throw him in.

And not everyone is going to watch Last Order so I would expect that the orginal game would be what's cannon.


That's exactly how I feel.

Imagine what would happen if, rather than a video game, this were a series of novels. They would be attacked by critics all over the place.

Just because they are the creators doesn't mean that you can suddenly make a changed to a work that's already reached the public.

What would you think if JK Rowling suddenly said, "Oh, you know what, I think it would've been better if Harry died in Order of the Phoenix."

I doubt your response would be to take that as a fact and disregard the last two books just because she's the creator.
 
Don't get me wrong - I really liked Last Order in general. But it just really bugs me that Square is making retcons and a lot of people just want to accept it.

I can't say I can change what SE wants to put out... but I'm gonna put in my two cents if they're gonna make retcons on the basis that it can edge in more profits.
 
How could you even like Last Order at all? It's not representative of ANY of the characters, not just the few mistakes they made. It's sole purpose was to clear up a cutscene that most players missed when they played through FFVII. It failed to do that job. Having Zack jump around and use limit breaks only pissed me off. It wasn't inspired. It wasn't informative. Hell it wasn't even accurate yet alone entertaining. It was crap.
 
Well, graphically it was a success. And while it totally botches the story, it's not to the point that it's unrecognizable - for the majority it does follow the game.

But I agree that the changes were way too drastic to just brush off (obviously).

I think that it might have been in part a sort of trailer for Crisis Core - starting to get people to care about Zack.
 
I think more people should play the reactor scene again because if you do, you will realize how stupid cloud is.

Unless of course you think attacking the best warrior on the planet without a weapon is smart.
 
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