Jenova's Wings, genetic mutation, bla bla :(

[LeaT]

So uh hi and all that jazz, new member here. I like to think A LOT, and I've currently returned to engross myself into the FFVII franchise again and one thing started to bother me because it is pretty much unresolved - namely Jenova's wings.

First things first. We don't know how Jenova looks like exactly and chances are she's just really some blob of genes seeing Jenova is capable of copying the genetic make-up of anything she wishes to. However, we are capable of surmising a few things based off of those who were injected with her cells, namely that:

1. Jenova is obviously able to physically enhance the strength of current cells by mutating them (more on mutation later)
2. Jenova's hair, or the Cetra Jenova most likely copied before being defeated, is white
3. Jenova had wings (doubtful this is a Cetra trait)

There may be other things I am overlooking but that's the basics anyway. We know that 1. is proven in the lore because only Solider 1st class become injected with Jenova's cells, therefore making them stronger than 2nd and 3d class. Since Sephiroth is the only person who is, so to speak, actually a direct descendant of Jenova and neither Hojo nor Lucrecia had white hair, Jenova's hair was most likely originally white. Also, only Soldier 1st class are capable of having wings, which means this is a trait explicit to Jenova.

Why do the wings bug me? Because both Zack and Cloud were injected with Jenova cells, but none of them are able to recreate this particular trait. Even Lazard who became an Angeal copy was able to recreate the wing(s) (and so did all Genesis copies). Coolness factor aside, what I am curious in is the function of the wings. Seeing that Genesis and Sephiroth got one black wing each both located on the left side whereas Angeal got one white on the right side (although I am aware this is more likely symbolic), this would lead me to believe that Jenova had one black and one white wing (left and right accordingly).

Further, Angeal and Genesis were injected with, how to put it, unstable genes from Jenova being one of the first in line of the Jenova project with Sephiroth, Cloud and Zack the last ones. That the S genes were improved upon would thus indicate a few things, namely that a) the genes are more stable and b) more genetic code from Jenova were successfully carried over without causing unwanted mutations in the host.

So, this is where I have to get into some basic genetics to explain why I think it is odd Zack and Cloud would not have wing(s). From genetics we know that certain genes can be unstable and cause mutations in either the wrong amount or in the wrong combination. This is most likely what happened to Genesis and Angeal. While they were able to copy their own genetic make-up to others which was one of Jenova's basic traits (almost survival-esque, this is what vira do), there is an issue of metaphysics - their consciousness is not carried over. Begs the question whether Jenova was ever an actual sentient being before engaging with other sentient beings. From this it is possible to surmise that the reason Jenova Project G failed was because the human subjects were injected with too many Jenova genes, and most likely in the wrong places.

That Genesis and Angeal became as old as they did before degredation occurred has to do with that these genetic errors can occur randomly, of course related to lifestyle. For instance, a child can have a genetic disposal to more likely get cancer (cell mutations caused by genetic error, we all have them but the body is usually able to dispose of these erraneous cells properly before they grow into the big clusters we call tumors) but might never develop cancer until late in life because this child has such a lifestyle that the chance of developing cancer is drastically reduced. Therefore, we move into the realms of probability where anything and nothing can occur.

Right, so S genes probably did not have this copy behavior of Jenova because it turned out the human body is not capable of handling it, mako showered or not, or because it is strongly linked to Jenova's survival mechanic, i.e. Jenova had to copy herself into other subjects in order to survive just like a virus does, because the host will ultimately decay as Jenova continues to suck the life out of the host (is Jenova actually a virus?). I am guessing it is a combination of the two.

Apparently however, it seems that the S Project included more of Jenova's cells that carried over other properties (hair color, for instance), which would denote the difference in strength even among the 1st class soldiers and why for example Cloud would be able to defeat Sephiroth despite Sephiroth being the prodigy child (another question here about Cloud's actual descendence is raised, seeing he was able to overpower Sephiroth BEFORE he got experimented upon, adrenaline rush or no adrenaline rush. Could Cloud be a Cetra descendant, albeit with a very thin bloodline, without knowing?).

If that is the case, then why would Hojo exclude the wings part of Jenova's genes, since it seems that the close the host resembles Jenova, the stronger the individual (i.e. more Jenova genes inserted into the host's DNA code)?

Also, some other interesting things to consider, namely that the human DNA continues to change after birth. For example, resilience against certain diseases can be carried over to offspring because the resilience occurs at a genetic level (this may seem obvious now, but it wasn't in science until recently). For example, in Africa recent discoveries show that there are a few women completely immune against HIV. This immunity is carried over to their children.

So uh, I guess I kind of lost my point somewhere in all that. It probably needs some restructuring but I'll let it be for now. So shoot me.

 

[C i d]

Before I say anything, I would like to point out that I haven't actually played crisis core (I only played the original VII), so I am sorry if I make some errors in terms of storyline. But I am interested in Jenova biologically.

In this discussion, I assume the following:
-When Jenova's cells are inserted into the host, it codes for proteins that integrate its genes into the host cells genes. This is how HIV works, more or less, via the action of reverse transcriptase and integrase.
-Jenova's genes may also code for proteins that mutate existing host genes, to produce novel and positive phenotypes (characteristics) such as enhanced strength.

If you want to think universally, since Jenova came from some other planet, it is very probable that she has a completely different genetic code. By the way, the earthly definition for genetic code is the mapping between triplets of nitrogenous bases in messenger RNA and amino acids in a polypeptide. The polypeptide is folded into functional proteins. most proteins become the messenger/worker in showing the characteristics of an organism, e.g. eye colour.

I think you more or less know this. But the problem with comparing extraterrestrial organisms with the one on earth is, they may have totally different nucleotides and amino acids involved in their genetic code. Almost all organisms on earth has the common nitrogenous bases A, C, T and G in our DNA with the 20+ amino acids. In addition, each amino acid is coded by 3 consecutive bases only, not less, not more. Now if you believe in evolution, it is very highly likely that extraterrestrial organisms experience totally different origins of life and processes of natural selection by chance, leading to totally different genetic code compared to others. For instance, what if Jenova has 10 nitrogenous bases, and each amino acid is coded by 7 consecutive bases? (I am assuming Cloud's world has the same genetic code as ours, to simplify things)

Other possible difference: Her DNA bases mutate at a very frequent rate, or the opposite, do not mutate at all.

What I am trying to say is, we have very little information as to why Jenova works this way, and why some individuals infused with her cells do or do not have wings. She may have very complex biological characteristics unknown to us. So one can actually make up many theories as to answer your question about the wings.

Clearing your doubt about the biology of Jenova, she is really something out of this world, so we cant really classify her in our domains (eukarya, bacteria and archaea). Normal cells injected to an organism on earth is likely to be suppressed by the immune system and get destroyed, most likely because it has foreign antigenic surface. An example is blood donation.

Jenova cells are really something, because they can be directly injected, her genes expressed as part of the host AND affect the phenotype of the host. Well unless Hojo added some chemicals that prevent rejection of her cells and encourage the cells to proliferate and infect other cells.

What could have been more logical is that Hojo should have inserted parts of her GENES into the cells of the host organism. This is what we see in current genetic engineering. By doing so, the genes are directly expressed and then replicated into new cells, making a transgene organism. Well unless, as I assumed earlier, the cells function like HIV virus.

But it's not logical either to assume she is a true virus. She is already composed of cells when she reaches earth, implying that she is not an obligate parasite (like viruses). She can also do reverse infection, i.e. gaining the traits of the victims.

it is worth noting that every cell (except gametes) in a single organism contains exactly the SAME genetic material. The DNA composition is identical. Different cells function differently because they are specialised to turn off some genes. That is why some cells can secrete hormones while some cells can't. Assuming Jenova's cells are like this, despite her coming from a different planet, simply inserting her cells into a host organism will lead to the organism having the full set of Jenova's genes, potentially. Whether some genes are turned off or on depends on WHERE Hojo extract the cells from. But the unique thing about Jenova is, her cells are apparently able to transfer her genes to the host's cells' genes. This cause these genes to be expressed. But we don't really know which genes are transferred. I think that it's also part of Jenova's free will, who chooses which traits the host should inherit. Or strictly speaking scientifically, complex interactions between the proteins coded by her genes and the unique proteins coded by the host determine which of her genes are integrated into the host's. So it's probably by chance that some people gain wings. OR the more cells that are inserted, the more likely the host resembles Jenova, the higher the chance of sprouting wings.

It's probably an additive effect, like the case with human height. The more the copy of the genes we have, the taller we can get potentially. So the more Jenova cells (which all contain the same copies of the wings gene) that are inserted, the higher the chance for the wings to sprout.

Then why is it that while some hosts have wings but Jenova herself doesn't? It's probably because, as I said, Jenova is alien. Her genes are epxressed differently using her own cell machinery than ours. While, for example, a particular gene codes for a dysfunctional protein using her own machinery, the same gene codes for proteins that contribute to growth of wings in earthly humans. So it is also possible that some humans have complementary genes that either encourage the growth of these wings, while others don't.

But if you think about it, the creators of the game are probably simply not specialised in biology. We, the fans, are taking this discussion too far, since the basis of discussion is not well supported/logical in the first place OR Jenova is assumed to have an unearthly biology that can't be explained OR since it's a fantasy game, some real magic is involved.

I am not sure if I have answered your question though.

 

[LeaT]

Well, I don't think I ultimately wanted an answer knowing very well it is very theoretical water and we fans can of course merely speculate in a way that makes sense to us. I just don't like things that don't make sense.

You are right though that I was too quick to assume that Jenova's DNA may resemble that seen on earth. Likewise, I assume that the Planet/Gaia/Whatever is structured in the same way as Earth, for the simple reason that it is obviously modelled after Earth (otherwise there would most likely be no humans).

However, I think the really big problem with it comes to Jenova is that we can't tell what cells are genuinely Jenova's and what cells are merely cells meant to mimic Jenova's cells by having Jenova inserted certain acids to change the cells' DNA. Like I said, I think it is a very high possibility the Jenova we see within the game (and movies) is Jenova resembling that of a Cetra and therefore also possess the DNA somewhat of a Cetra (while still somehow possessing the DNA of Jenova), seeing the Cetra was the last race Jenova encountered before bealing sealed away. We know that when Jenova creates copies of herself or copies herself to become like someone else, the copies retain all of the abilities of the original, albeit in a weaker form. I don't want to spoil you about Crisis Core so just notice I am warning you here that this will be a spoiler:

When it is shown that Lazard is an Angeal copy, he still tells Zack that he cannot fight like a 1st class SOLDIER, therefore indicating that while he can copy Angeal's abilities (like the white wing), he does not possess Angeal's strength. This is most likely explainable by the fact that while Lazard became an Angeal copy, he was never showered in mako like Angeal was, although, again, one would surmise that if mako affects the cellular structure, it means mako must also tamper with the DNA of those cells somehow. Eyes don't start to randomly grow green unless the eye cells have become genetically changed to do so, and if mako alters the DNA level of cells, then those properties should also be carried over to the copies.

I should add that I haven't actually played Crisis Core because I don't own a PSP, but there are some friendly people on Youtube who uploaded all the cutscenes so you get a pretty good idea of how the game plays out without actually having to play it (sometimes I almost prefer it that way!). Another possible explanation that I did raise myself is that Hojo for some reason did not think wings were a necessary addition and simply removed the DNA that would turn on this kind of biological growth, in lack for better words. I do think it is a weak one though, since Hojo's ultimate goal was to recreate superhumans.

And yes, I completely agree with you that the addition of wings was most likely added by Tetsuya because it was a cool idea conceptually, regardless if it made biologically sense. I've am also active on the Bleach forums at MangaShare and you notice these problems all the time with Kubo Tite developing the concepts of his characters before he develops the concepts of the world that would in reality control the conceptual development of the character. For example, all shinigami have two release states, but because Ichigo's zanpakuto was conceptualized before the concept of release states, he therefore only got one release. I suspect it is something similar with those characters infused with Jenova's cells as their raison d'être are ultimately to be cool for the players.

I still think how Jenova functions biologically is an interesting topic, though. Something else I think is interesting to consider is that I don't quite grasp the difference in directly inserting Jenova's DNA into the DNA of a fetus and inserting Jenova's DNA into a grown human seeing that Jenova already, so to speak, has the ability to insert her cells and change the DNA structures of cells of her hosts. Wouldn't this ultimately kind of achieve the same result?

 

[C i d]

Well the exact mechanism of her cells are unknown an I was just assuming a possible one. But keeping in mind that theory, an embryo is composed of a few cells only. It would have been so much easier for jenova's cells to infect every cell of the host. These cells that contain the jenova genes and new mutations undergo division to produce new identical cells that have the same mutations. When the organism mature, every cell will contain the jenova genes. Meanwhile, a fully grown organism is composed of trillions of cells. We do not know the extent to which jenova cells can infect these cells directly. So the impact may be less significant.

But a possible problem with inserting the cells into the embryo is, the embryonic cells are usually pluripotent stem cells. Through cell specialization, the jenova genes in newly formed cells may be shut off.

 

[soldier first class]

The only answer I can give is that Cloud and Zack have adapted to the Jenova cells so well that they don't get any physical effects from it. Sephiroth had Jenova cells woven in with his own DNA while he was still inside of his mother Lucrecia. Why some have one black and Angeal has one white one is probably symbolic to say the least. But the story and details such as this keeps FFVII alive and keeps people guessing so...the world may never truly know.