Magic and Sorceresses

[eisprinz]

How do you guys think magic and sorcery works in the world of FFVIII?

The consensus seems to say that sorceresses are able to use magic innately, but regular humans can only use magic when they have Drawn it from a monster or draw point. However, there seems to be some kind of threshold, as Rinoa and Edea still use only spells they have Drawn until they reach a Limit Break. Does this indicate that a sorceress must be endangered or injured in order to access her powers? What about Ultimecia's time compression abilities?

 

[Zanmato]

Well...I don't know if they must be injured to access their powers but I recall that Edea uses some sort of magic blast for her normal attack command(eventhough it is affected by strenght). And I belive sorceresses have special magic abilities that can't be drawn...such as Ultimecia's Hell's Judgement and that spell where she crashes 4 planets into your party.

 

[Bambi]

Yeah, I think so too, I think the only reason Rinoa uses a weapon is because she has only just got her powers and has always used the weapon.
I would have liked to have learnt more about Hyne in the story, that might have given abit more insight as to a sorceress' abilities

 

[eisprinz]

Yep, this is pretty much a big fanwank thread, as I don't recall there being a real heavy explanation in the game.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

I wouldn't say so. Remember, by the time Edea joins your party, her powers have already been passed down unknowingly to Rinoa. Naturally, she would also have lost her ability to use Magic naturally and would need to Junction Guardian Forces in order to cast any spells just like everyone else. We saw her raise a protective shield to stop Irvine's bullet during the assassination attempt, not to mention her primary method of attacking in both battles against her is Magic. All in all, the developers seemed to want us to know that sorceresses can use Magic without first Drawing it from a monster. As for Rinoa...remember, when we get to use her on Disc Three, she's only been conscious as a sorceress for...what, thirty minutes? I'm willing to bet that a sorceress's magical capabilities are developed over time, so naturally, Rinoa wouldn't be able to use hers right away.

 

[cooky560]

this may seem dumb, but being as she was just a normal person in the past, like when she ran the orphanage as shown in the flashback when you visit trabia garden on disk 2, that Edea's power to cast infinte spells came from her being possesed by Ultimeca?

 

[eisprinz]

I wouldn't say so. Remember, by the time Edea joins your party, her powers have already been passed down unknowingly to Rinoa. Naturally, she would also have lost her ability to use Magic naturally and would need to Junction Guardian Forces in order to cast any spells just like everyone else. We saw her raise a protective shield to stop Irvine's bullet during the assassination attempt, not to mention her primary method of attacking in both battles against her is Magic. All in all, the developers seemed to want us to know that sorceresses can use Magic without first Drawing it from a monster. As for Rinoa...remember, when we get to use her on Disc Three, she's only been conscious as a sorceress for...what, thirty minutes? I'm willing to bet that a sorceress's magical capabilities are developed over time, so naturally, Rinoa wouldn't be able to use hers right away.

But notice that she does have a non-Drawn magical limit break (which is the same spell she used to injure Squall at the end of Disc 1).

Also, about Rinoa and her use of magic... one of all Final Fantasy's biggest triumphs/plotholes (depending on how you want to look at it) is the ambiguous flow of time. The events of the story can often only be recorded in relation to one another and a true chronology is hard to piece together considering sidequests and whatnot. Therefore, it can't be said how long Rinoa has her powers throughout Disc 3 until the end of the game.

 

[Ultima36]

I agree that Rinoa won't ba able to use her sorceress powers of using magic (not drawn from enemies). Howeve,r she does get a new limit break, Angel Wing, which enables her to use magic randomly, even if it is not stocked. Obviously, the spells she then casts during her limit break are not taken from her stock. Because of the limit break, it would make sense that sorceresses may only be able to use their powers in times of desperation, and so it could be argued that Ultimecia's greed for power led to her using her magic without drawing it. However, liek i said before, it might just take time to develop the powers, so I guess there is some ambiguity in this.

If you wish to learn more about Hyne, then there is a small explanation of it under the Help or Tutorial menu (or something like that) somewhere on the main menu. It also gives info on the history of Esthar and some background info on places and nations.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

That would actually be a plausible theory, except that it's stated very clearly that sorceresses are capable of using Magic naturally. Not to mention sorceresses are feared for their allegedly great and terrible power in the FFVIII Universe. If a sorceress could only use Magic under very specific circumstances, then she really isn't anything to be feared, if you ask me. Besides, Edea stopped Irvine's bullet with a magical shield. What's more, she cast that spell much faster than a normal human could even react. In fact, over the course of the game, Edea shows that she's more than capable of using magic. A few examples include paralyzing Quistis, phasing through the floor, and the icicle she used to impale Squall. Yet, at the same time, nobody ever makes any mention of Edea having a Guardian Force Junctioned to her. The only explaination we're given is "She is a sorceress, so therefor she can use magic."

In any case, there have only been two instances where a sorceress has needed to draw Magic to cast it; Rinoa and Edea when she joins your party. However, what most people seem to forget is that Edea was no longer a sorceress when she actually joins up with you. As I said, her powers had already been passed down to Rinoa at the end of Disc 2. As for her, that could easily be attributed to the fact that she can't control her powers yet. Again, she'd only been a sorceress for a couple of days at most. I doubt Magic is easy to master, especially when you're not enhanced by a GF. This is evidenced by the new Limit Break she gets, which lets her cast Magic she doesn't have in stock- randomly. Perhaps Square made it random to show that Rinoa doesn't know how to control her Sorceress Magic yet?

Plus, every other time we've seen a sorceress in battle- Adel, Edea, and Ultimecia- they've all shown themselves to be more than capable of casting Magic even when their situation is less than desperate. Considering Square stated numerous times within the game itself that sorceresses can use Magic without Junctioning a GF, I think it's fairly obvious that they can do just that.

 

[eisprinz]

In any case, there have only been two instances where a sorceress has needed to draw Magic to cast it; Rinoa and Edea when she joins your party. However, what most people seem to forget is that Edea was no longer a sorceress when she actually joins up with you. As I said, her powers had already been passed down to Rinoa at the end of Disc 2.

It's slightly ambiguous where Edea transfers her powers, however. It could have occurred at the end of Disc 2, but could also have occurred while the group was traveling the Salt Flats or in Esthar. Also, during her time with the group, Edea does use undrawn magic in the form of her normal attack as well as her limit break.

One possibility which fits with your idea is that Edea has already passed her powers to Rinoa at the end of Disc 2, but retains some residually. Thus, she needs to draw most of her magic, but is able to attack and limit break with undrawn magic.

Another possibility is that Edea does not pass her powers to Rinoa until just before the Lunar Base. The problem with this theory is that Edea still shows undrawn powers after Rinoa is sent up.

Yet another possibility: Edea as herself, and Rinoa as herself are generally weak sorceresses because they didn't have time or never needed to practice their powers. Sorceresses only get strong powers by exercising magic skills; this explains Edea's reduction in magical power, as she only exhibits her super heightened capabilities when possessed by Ultimecia (who certainly has been honing her skills).

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Yeah, that last theory sounds about right. Edea never struck me as someone who would try to develop her own destructive powers, at least not of her own free will. Being possessed by Ultimecia must have given her some sort of boost in her magical capabilities. Not to mention the fact that, as far as I know, Edea didn't spend much time NOT possessed by Ultimecia. That is to say, I think she was possessed shortly after acquiring her powers, but it's been a while since I've played through FFVIII, so I can't be sure. If that is true, though, then it makes sense that she wouldn't have had access to the full extent of her powers because she had literally no time to hone her skills.

There is one hole in that theory, though, and it has to do with Rinoa. Remember the cutscene they showed us I believe a little ways into Disc 3? It took place immediately after the battle with Edea, and showed Rinoa possessed by Ultimecia. She revitalized a fallen Seifer and enlisted him as her knight, I believe. Now, as far as we know, Ultimecia can only possess sorceresses. What's more, Rinoa was shown in a similar state to her zombified mindset when in space. So we can pretty much be certain that Rinoa did, in fact, receive her powers right after Edea was defeated at the hands of Squall and Co.

However, we never really learn the specifics of sorceress magic. Perhaps a sorceress does retain a little bit of her magical powers after passing them down, which would explain Edea's basic attack and Limit Break. It doesn't sound like that much of a stretch, really.

 

[JiD]

If you look at all the sorceresses in the game that have powers I believe except for Adel they have a GF junctioned even Ultemica has the ultimate GF. Adel might be explained by being attached to Rinoa and absorbing her powers though. It would seem that sorceresses are just people with a heightened sense of magic as in they can recall the spells better, or maybe can fuse with the GF's better allowing them to tap into that power allowing them to use magic available only to the GF by drawing through the GF. Just a thought.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Actually, Ultimecia, Adel, and Edea were all without GF's. Ultimecia was only Junctioned to Griever during the third phase of the battle. Before that, Griever didn't even exist; she was actually the one who created him. Coincidentially, she created Griever with her incredibly powerful magic by pulling him from Squall's mind. So, basically, Griever didn't exist until after you defeat Ultimecia's human form. And, since she uses magic during that battle, we can safely assume that Ultimecia can cast her spells without having a GF. Junctioning Griever only increased her power. That doesn't mean she didn't have it to begin with.

As for Adel...I feel I must point out that Rinoa is not a Guardian Force. If memory serves, Adel was simply feeding off of her life force so that she could completely wake up.

 

[JiD]

I don't know if I remember her saying she was junctioning a GF or anything like that in the battle, or anything about her pulling Griever from squalls mind, but it has been awhile since I played the game. As for the Adel one I agreed that it was a hole in my thought process but it could be filled with the fact the sorceresses gained powers through the GF they had not necessarily still had. I sorta saw it as a process like I believe it was ff6 where once you junctioned them you could learn there powers than once you take them off after you have learned them you still have the power.

Thats why I mentioned Rinoa and Adel attached to one another she was taking in what she had learned to use it by going through her life force. They talk in the game about how they are losing their memories from the GF's even though Rinoa claimed she hadn't been using them as long as the other members of the party she was uneffected. Like I said the first time as well it was just a thought, nothing more.