Missed Potential [FFXII]

Aztec Triogal

Aztec Triogal

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Final Fantasy XII does not rank very high on my "favorite FF" list but I can't help feeling sorry for it. I remember when I played the game how I really enjoyed reading all the monster bio's and other literature that was randomly acquired throughout the game. It showed how deep the game was intended to be... but Square could just never integrate it into the game. As sad as it is, Matsuno (of Tactics and Vagrant Story) had a couple nervous breakdowns and couldn't finish the project (which was already 5 years in development at the time). I truly believe he had a great story in mind but just couldn't piece it all together.

So what do you think? Regardless of whether you hated it, loved it, or stand somewhere in the middle... do you think this game had a lot more plot potential than what was actually in the final product?
 
When I completed the game, I was left with a small "Is that it?" feeling about the plot. But Matsuno's breakdowns does explain why I got that feeling.

So yeah, I completely agree with you. It really is a shame about Matsuno.
 
Without a doubt. In all honesty XII might as well not have been released it was that underachieved. The whole political story idea was brilliant but was poorly presented in the game itself, the characters were poorly presented with absolutely no background or personality, and, you'd think that with the magnitude of what the story could have been like that the characters would be amazing. I got myself hyped up when reading about it thinking that it was going to be an amazing title, but sadly, imvho, SE failed this game big style. And what should have been a 40/40 game was somewhat closer to a 20/40 it was lacking in depth that badly.

So yeah, it had massive potential but SE failed to deliver.
 
Changing lead developer is never good for a project. Matsuno was on the project from 2001 to 2006. Square had released when he stepped down that game production was basically halted in 2003 because Matsuno's panic attacks were so bad. I remember there were articles about how he went to Buddist temples to try and calm himself. He was a wreck. It's really a shame too because if you've ever played Tactics, you know stories are his thing. He creates these really complex, long, and involved plots that are gritty and violent... and just fantastic. And I think you can see his genious shining through at different parts of the game... but the game in its entirety just seemed so broken. :/
 
The story and characters could've been much more, yes. But I still can't bring myself to consider FFXII as this big massive failure as some people make it out to be. The basic premise of the story was compelling and quite refreshing from the more metaphysical stories that had come before it. The game surely could have used more fine-tuning but I consider it quite good by any standards. I haven't played Tactics so I'm not sure how it compares to that, but I think poor FFXII deserves more love. All this negativity is really disheartening. But I can understand why some people would consider the game bad or something. It's just not my case. Though it would've been interesting to see how the game would've turned out if Matsuno had stayed on board.
 
See the first time i played through this game, bearing in mind ive only played through twice, i hated it, it just didnt excite me at all. Reading a review on the game the storyline sounded amazing but after finishing it i was sorta left thinking oh....thats it. I was really quick to slag the game off on the forums, because generally i felt so let down by the game.
However i decided to give the game another go and surprisingly i got really into it, the battle system the storyline, everything. It actually felt like a final fantasy game.
Overall its nowhere near my favourite but its not a bad game by any means.
I heard that this game was rushed as developers were putting more of their time into FFXIII for the Ps3.
I wonder had it been the original battle system would ppl have felt different?????
 
What ruined the game for me was the active time system they pulled it off in kingdom hearts but in final fantasy I want turn-based combat!

also the plot could have gone further
 
The hell happened??

I was extremly hard on this game in all things ie; chraracters, story, fighting style, VAAN what a greiven, yet every now and then i just get the urge to roam around Ivalice and and look up Ashes skirt ......whoops.....did i say that out loud...what I really meant to say was start the game again I remember al the crap I was put through the first time around.

NEVER AGAIN DAMN IT!
 
I didn't really enjoy the game while I was playing it. But after I finished it, I realized that it was a pretty damn good game. I think the reason why I feel this way is because the ideas behind the game were very good, but they weren't executed in the actual game very well. It's a real shame about Matsuno, maybe the game would have been pieced together better if he remained on the project.
 
Sticking with the old battle system from before wouldn't have made the game something special tbh. It was what made this game stand out more then others. You might not think it's worth 40, but you seem to forget that people who review this think differently to you, so they've probably got enough reason themselves to vote this game 40/40.
 
galaxyflair said:
I was extremly hard on this game in all things ie; chraracters, story, fighting style, VAAN what a greiven, yet every now and then i just get the urge to roam around Ivalice and and look up Ashes skirt ......whoops.....did i say that out loud...what I really meant to say was start the game again I remember al the crap I was put through the first time around.
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What is a greiven?

so they've probably got enough reason themselves to vote this game 40/40.
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I don't think even you could give it 40/40 like Famitsu did JR.
The plot is poor, please no one say it's mature, becayse it's not. Gods give girl special rock to bash baddy with.
However there was potential there, she teams with Vayne and smashes the gods, then kill Vayne, would have imho been good.
Then there are the characters, and I use the word 'characters' very wrongly.
Vaan and Penelo both had the personality of a block of Cheese. Fran was not much better. Basche was a boring old cliche. Ashe, there was potential to make her someone really unlikable, but that we still wanted to suceed. Instead she kept moaning on about Rassler.
Balthier was cliched, return of the prodigal son, but there bits about his character that showed he had a personality at least. Then of course SE ruined it, and it turns out he is completely invincible, who'd have guessed?
The battle system is a subjective matter.
There are, I think, parts of a good game there, but most of it seems to be have been created by Mr Generic.
 
Again as I pointed out in other posts, the story lacked a huge amount of depth.

I remember when FFVII and FFX were both advertised they hyped the game up to be something revolutionary, and guess what.. they hit a home run with both of them.

Now with this game they hyped it up yet again, and I was actually intrigued to see if they would come through on their end. Well based on my opinion and my opinion alone this game seemed quite a bit unfinished in the story line.

Rpgs are made for the story's basically, if you don't have a good story line backing it, then people will tend to rate it terribly. If I wanted straight up amazing game play and a halfass story line I would play a first person shooter or an RTS.

10/10 on combat and FMVS
2/10 on story line

You had balthier advertised and from what I saw I thought he was going to be a blood thirsty pirate, but within the game he was an uptight prick with a pompous attitude.

They made Fran a freakin drone, she sounded all monotone and stuff. No depth whatsoever unless you want to call her "breaking away from her people" a great story.. that's about it for her. I thought and I know this might be typical but I thought she would have a more.. "nature" voice being from where she was from.

Penelo? Every time I hear her name I think of a naive 12 year old girl who plays as a tomboy. That is the biggest turn off ever to a character.

I'll admit Ashe had some cool characteristics but for the most part they bombed on her. She was meant to be the leader of a nation, but you can tell either a man or a masculine female made her. She was as I said before "a young boy in a female body coming to power"

Vaan was another typical main character, but what I liked about him was the focus was not directed to him at all times. He was more of a fall back character, but the story line just didn't revolve around him at all times.
 
May contain spoilers

THe plot does show that there is a deeper story going on under the surface. the whole war between the espers and even the arcadian war itself shows that there is much going on in the storyline... The conflict with balthier and Dr. Cid could have been developed much more deeper. Also vaan and penelos role en the game is kinda like "quick we need too random characters" unlike ashe and basches story.. those two are probably the most developed characters in the game... also the occarian plot twist is hard to follow...

Now this game does have a really good storyline if you can piece it all together between the Mob hunts and the actual game... if they had incorperated the hunts into the game further then it probably would have been a spectacular game...

What im saying is the storylines that a intwined in the game are never really explain thoroughly enough... take the necrol of nabudis for example it explains the destruction of nabudis through the use of nethicite. but it doesnt quiet wrap up the story even after you beat the humbaba mistant and the other big nasties in the necrol.

The game doesnt explain the verra being so sensitive to mist of how fran and balthier met... they just hint about frans story..

But all in all it was a good game and is probably one of my favorites...
 
This game was a big disappointment for it. Before it was released, it looked like the best game ever, but now I feel like it was the biggest letdown I've experienced with video games. The gameplay was alright and the premise was fairly promising, but they just managed to ruin it somehow. The beginning was promising with the awesome intro and nice graphics, but the further I got the more I realised how underdeveloped the story and the characters really were. The most you'll get out of the main party is when they're introduced, and that's pretty much. If the characters ever said something, it was always relevant to the plot, and I think that was a big mistake. In the other installments the characters would discuss things sometimes irrelevant to the plot, but that's just deepened them and made them the memorable personalities they are.

Some people seem to call the game's storyline mature, but all I see is wasted potential. There isn't much politics, if it was politics at all. If something important happened, it happened miles and miles away from where the main party was. I felt like I was never even involved with the plot, because all I did was just roam endless areas and kill monsters while the NPCs move on with the storyline.

There are so many bad things about this game that it's hard to even admit it to be a FF game. One of the worst installments in the series definitely. It lacks the atmosphere that defines the series.
 
I have made a mistake in closing this thread. It shall be reopened.

Blastoise~
 
In addition, let's try and stick to the main topic at hand, please.

Regardless of whether you hated it, loved it, or stand somewhere in the middle... do you think this game had a lot more plot potential than what was actually in the final product?
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Thank you.
 
The game had it's problems. Holes in the story, lack of developement with the characters, they are the main issues. Pretty much everything else is good.

I won't go into the battle system because we could debate that until the cows come home.

If this game was a stand-a-alone without the "Final Fantasy" name on it, I think people would look at it differently, it is a great game to play, plenty of free roaming, plenty of side quests. But with it being a FF game, the expectation is set higher and people are looking for a great storyline with memorable characters, which 12 did lack.

I think people can be a bit harsh on it and get way too nit picky with things like the battle system, summoning and quickenings. There's no doubt there is missed potential in this, but I still have to give the game credit, for what it was, it was a good game.
 
I played almost alll the FFs and 12 was lacking in parts. I mean when you go from FF10 for the ps2 and then go to FF12......it seems more like a slight down grade. Mostly the story and vaan was the thing that bugged me.
 
If this game was a stand-a-alone without the "Final Fantasy" name on it, I think people would look at it differently, it is a great game to play, plenty of free roaming, plenty of side quests. But with it being a FF game, the expectation is set higher and people are looking for a great storyline with memorable characters, which 12 did lack.
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I think, with FF games, the expectations aren't necessarily higher per se, but there is an expectation of familiarity which FFXII did lack. As different each FF is from another, most of theme share familiar thematics. For example, many FFs refer to the gaia hypothesis, main characters who lack self awareness, crystals etc. Mainly, with the main series, the stories require very fantastical environments in order to work. The characters take on realistic traits, but for the most part the core plotlines offer a certain amount of escapism.

FFXII misses many the familiar traits that seperate a "Final Fantasy" from a typical "Fantasy" game, though it does retain a few. Yes, alot of the aesthetic traditions remain (Cid, moogles, chocobos etc.) but the central plot is much more down-to-earth than the high fantasy epics of the previous FF. Not to say FFXII wasn't a grand story, it was just so in a different way. To state it simply: previous FFs required a fantasy environment in order to execute a fantasy-based plot; FFXII was a political plot placed in a fantasy realm.

Now, I have to say I was not caught up in all the hype surrounding FFXII prior to its release, thus I can't say it was a letdown for me because I didn't really expect anything. I bought it a month or two after its release, when I saw the pretty special edition on the shelf (I had no idea it was released yet). When I played it, I was actually pleasently surprised. It diverged greatly from previous FFs, but not in what I thought was a bad way, and I simple adored the new battle system. I posted this based on when I first came online after playing, as I primarily found that many people disliked it based on this new divergence of Final Fantasy.

Now, I don't know if it was here or elsewhere, but I do remember someone saying that FFXII would fit better in the FFT series. This maybe true, as FFXII has much more similar to FFT, a branch series seperate from main series. FFT, while an amazing game, would sit quite awkwardly in the main series much like FFXII seems to be right bow. The main problem with the comparison between the two are these: The FFT are SRPGs, thus it can't really be placed in the series; and that the FFT plot is admittedly far superior to FFXII's.

Though FFXII did have a flawed plot (unlike FFT, which is near perfect IMO), I think it gets some unfair criticism. It is flawed in the sense that it gets very little explanation, which I find a little unfair because I find quite a few titles from the main series suffer from this (*coughff7ff8cough*).

Ok, the bulk of my post is mainly coming into the game's defense, but there were definitely aspects I found particularly aggrivating. Particularly, I found characterization just... nonexistant. Vaan/Penelo/Fran were pretty unimportant to the plot, and the rest were stereotypes that lacked dynamic (the exception being Balthier). I do like the "base" characters, but they never really react to the story. They just sorta float along.

This kind of puts FFXII in a very awkward position in the FF list of titles - it lacks the intense characterization and familiarity of the previous of the main series, not making up for it in the intricate plot embellishment as FFT does. It kinda sits in a strange, undecided inbetween.

Anyways, I think I sorta lost the point of what I was trying to say in this long ramble. In the game's current state, it wouldn't really make a difference if Basch, Penelo, Balthier etc. was the main controllable through the towns as they're all just as "bland" as eachother. Had they followed through on the original conception of the game, instead of flip flopping to and fro as it seems they had done through the development, it probably would have retained better consistency. Generally, continuous drastic changes during the main development process isn't good for any type of large, collaborative project like a video game. Especially for such a big title.
 
I was also very critical of FFXII when I played though it - it joined FFX and FFX-2 as the only FFs I couldn't be bothered to complete. Looking back, however, I can't see it in such a critical light anymore.

I found that a lot of complaints I had could be also applied to other FFs - FFs that I wouldn't really be that critical of. I think I'd always taken certain things for granted in the series and certain failings had slipped under my radar. For example, FFXII gets a lot of complaints about how the characters are poorly developed. Well, to be honest, that happens in a lot of FF games. To take a game very close to my heart, not many of the characters in FFVII were that developed, to be honest. They basically had their "hometown scene" and that was it. Barret is summarised by being (a) a Mr T homage and (b) the brief sidestory that occurs in Corel (takes about 4 minutes) and then later in the prison (takes about, what, 15 minutes?). The same goes for all the characters apart from Cloud - they have their basic character-type and then their hometown adds a bit more character to them. It's still pretty thin.

I think that it's not so much that FFXII lacked character development but more that it lacked little humorous touches. What FFVII and FFIX lacked in character development, they more than made up for with charm and humour. FFXII, like FFVIII, almost entirely lacked humour and so the characters, with their typically straightforward personalities, felt rather flat. As I just mentioned FFVIII, I may as well say that I think that FFVIII has even worse character development than XII. Think about it - what does Quistis actually say after her insecure speech at the ball right at the start of the game? "I don't know if I should be a teacher" - end character development and, indeed, any dialogue of note. Selphie's character is basically conveyed in two parts; 1. When you first meet her and she tumbled down the hill/low cliff and 2. when she sees what's become of her Garden. Those two things combined make up about 4 minutes of actual character-based scenes, max.

FFIX featured characters that were summed up totally by their little quote that appeared in promotional material. There was nothing more to them than that. However, the game just oozed charm and personality. It was full of charmismatic little touches and had a really nice fairy tale feel to it. That made up for the incredibly basic characters and, what's more, actually made them seem more complex than they actually were. I think that if FFXII just stopped even a few times and just had the characters chat about meaningless things - the sorts of things that real people actually talk about - it would have added greatly to the characters. Off the top of my head, Vaan only speaks to Ashe a couple of times in the whole game and it's usually quite perfunctory dialogue. Then again, how many times does Red XIII talk to Cloud, or Vincent talk to Barret, etc? Hopefully you see what I mean about most FFs featuring a similar level of character interaction and development but making up for it with charm and humour. Yeah Balther was a bit too obviously "the cool witty guy" but then Vincent and Sephiroth are a bit too obivously the brooding bishonens and Squall is too obviously aimed at your average angsty 17 year old.

On a totally separate note, one thing that marred FFXII for me, and it wasn't really its fault at all, was that I'd previously played FFXI a hell of a lot. As such, the areas of FFXII seemed really small and unconvincing and many of the elements that would have seemed original just felt like toned-down FFXI things - even the battle system itself.
 
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