Protestants vs. Catholics

[.Ted]

First of all, I didn't create this topic to flame religion. My goal here is to have everyone understand things about Catholicism, as many people just judge its principles from a first glance. My goal is to also have Protestants -- specifically the ignorant ones that assume whatever theory they come up with is right and everyone else is wrong --at least understand why Catholics do what they do. We may all have different goals, like perhaps yours being to turn me away from Catholicism. By all means, you're welcome to try.

Second, I got the idea from Tmoo's "Atheists vs. Theists vs. Agnostics" topic, as well as one of my own (which was about the extremities of the Old Testament, but strayed deep into the topic of Catholicism).

Third, this topic is mainly for Protestants (Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc.) and Catholics. However, if you are non-Christian but want to weigh in on the issue, feel free to post your thoughts.

Fourth, if there's another topic like this, by all means delete this one.

Fifth, a lot of people go through life without learning why each side is as strong as it is. It's a dangerous thought, but I believe if our faith for one group is strong enough we'll never join the other group (that goes double for Catholics, since we can't join another religion without being excommunicated after First Communion). But I've seen people judge both groups mostly -- if not entirely -- in ignorance. We have to learn why we believe what we believe in, not just assume what the other group does is entirely wrong.

Sixth, and most important. We can all agree -- at least both Protestants and Catholics -- that we are God's children. We don't want to tear each other's heads off. Whether we agree or disagree, there is to be absolutely no flaming here. Don't put someone down just because they have different beliefs than yours. Just because we all believe differently doesn't mean we can't be friends. Whoever you are, we should all respect everyone else's beliefs.

So, to the first poster, this is what you do. Simply post one of your gripes -- concerning either Protestants or Catholics -- and the debate shall emerge from there. An example could include why us Catholics seem to love the Virgin Mary a lot. Another would be that you believe a belief from either group is just asenine.

So, let's get started. We're all brothers and sisters here. Let's try to keep this on debating level. Once again, I ask that there'd be no flaming.

 

[GBJoker]

I'm an atheist, but I'm going to gripe anyways, and hopefully learn something out of it.

I have read a few versions of the bible and debated (argued) religion with various Christians, but...

Is the only difference between P and C Christians that P's didn't want a foreign leader (Pope in Roma, Italia)? I'm assuming there has to be a bit more to it than that...

EDIT: Crap, I remembered a split second after posting... Monty Python was making fun of the fact that P's are allowed to use birth control but C's aren't (Assuming the person practising either one is totally into it), but again... Those two little things couldn't be the only differences. Especially since birth control wasn't really in existence when P split off from C.

 

[CassinoChips]

There is a laundry list of grievances that Protestants have against Catholics. And against each other, for that matter. It's dangerous to lump all Protestant denominations together, since they fight amongst themselves as much as they differ from the Catholic Church. But for the sake of this discussion, we'll avoid that ball of wax for now. A short version of those grievances that I can think of off the top of my head:

-Iconoclasm- The veneration of statues and relics. Catholics for, many Protestants against, following the concept of the destruction of the Golden Calf in the Old Testament.

-Transubstantiation- Does the bread and wine literally become Jesus's body and blood? Catholics, Lutherans, and others say yes, many Protestant groups say it's simply a symbolic gesture.

-Faith by works- Can you win Jesus's/God's favor by performing good deeds on Earth? Catholics say yes, many other denominations argue that the only way into heaven is through the grace of Jesus.

-Original Sin- A heavy concept. Are we saddled with sin from the beginning by the fall of Adam & Eve from Paradise? Catholics say yes, most Protestants groups say we start with a (more or less) clean slate. Which leads to...

-Infant Baptism- Necessary for Catholics because of original sin. Most Protestant denominations wait until later in childhood/life so that it's a conscious choice by the believer.

-Role of Mary- Catholics are infamous for their veneration of the Virgin Mary, believing that she has the ear of Jesus and can speak to him on your behalf. Protestants view her as important, but don't put that much significance on her role in that manner.

-Plenary Indulgences- At the time, a huge issue. Now, not so much. Basically, the church allowed a person to buy their way out of Purgatory and/or buy forgiveness for sins they may commit in the future. In essence, it was a scam to make the bishops/cardinals/clergy more money.

-Language- At the time, priests and the educated/wealthy were virtually the only portion of the populace that could read Latin. Most Masses were performed in Latin. Many Protestant groups performed their services in the common vernacular.

Really, the Pope was a minor point in the whole discussion. He was simply a figurehead, representative of the Catholic Church as a whole. By bucking his authority, they were discarding the yoke of the Church.

The birth control issue is a bit of a misnomer. What's really in question is why people have sex. The Catholic Church wants people only to have sex for the sake of procreation. Thus, by their logic, birth control is unnecessary, because if you're using birth control, you're not having sex in order to procreate.

 

[GBJoker]

There is a laundry list of grievances that Protestants have against Catholics. And against each other, for that matter. It's dangerous to lump all Protestant denominations together, since they fight amongst themselves as much as they differ from the Catholic Church. But for the sake of this discussion, we'll avoid that ball of wax for now. A short version of those grievances that I can think of off the top of my head:

-Iconoclasm- The veneration of statues and relics. Catholics for, many Protestants against, following the concept of the destruction of the Golden Calf in the Old Testament.

-Transubstantiation- Does the bread and wine literally become Jesus's body and blood? Catholics, Lutherans, and others say yes, many Protestant groups say it's simply a symbolic gesture.

-Faith by works- Can you win Jesus's/God's favor by performing good deeds on Earth? Catholics say yes, many other denominations argue that the only way into heaven is through the grace of Jesus.

-Original Sin- A heavy concept. Are we saddled with sin from the beginning by the fall of Adam & Eve from Paradise? Catholics say yes, most Protestants groups say we start with a (more or less) clean slate. Which leads to...

-Infant Baptism- Necessary for Catholics because of original sin. Most Protestant denominations wait until later in childhood/life so that it's a conscious choice by the believer.

-Role of Mary- Catholics are infamous for their veneration of the Virgin Mary, believing that she has the ear of Jesus and can speak to him on your behalf. Protestants view her as important, but don't put that much significance on her role in that manner.

-Plenary Indulgences- At the time, a huge issue. Now, not so much. Basically, the church allowed a person to buy their way out of Purgatory and/or buy forgiveness for sins they may commit in the future. In essence, it was a scam to make the bishops/cardinals/clergy more money.

Thank you clearing that up for me. I knew it couldn't be the simple two things I threw out there.

-Language- At the time, priests and the educated/wealthy were virtually the only portion of the populace that could read Latin. Most Masses were performed in Latin. Many Protestant groups performed their services in the common vernacular.

But didn't P split off around like... 1600s? I mean, I was under the impression they split off near the end or after medieval times, and that around the same time you had Newton, Galileo, Kepler (give or take several decades for each), and that knowledge was slowly becoming available to all peoples except the insanely poor. Or something. The whole point I'm trying to make is that the bible were being translated to other languages (Such as Greek Orthodox?).

And to remain on topic, my second gripe is both of them, P's to a lesser degree, trying their hardest to keep gay marriage illegal... non-legal... Okay, you can do it, but no one recognizes it. You know what I mean.

 

[CassinoChips]

But didn't P split off around like... 1600s? I mean, I was under the impression they split off near the end or after medieval times, and that around the same time you had Newton, Galileo, Kepler (give or take several decades for each), and that knowledge was slowly becoming available to all peoples except the insanely poor. Or something. The whole point I'm trying to make is that the bible were being translated to other languages (Such as Greek Orthodox?).

Greek Orthodox is arguably older than Catholicism, so we have to remove them from this discussion. But your point is valid, to a certain extent. Martin Luther posted his 95 Theses in 1521. The printing press had been invented only some 40 or 50 years previous to that, so the knowledge was coming but it wasn't yet widespread. That applied to the problem somewhat as well. You could view it as some of the Protestants embracing the new technology, translating the Bible to the vernacular and making it more accessible to the people. The Catholic Church on the other hand, had a different idea. On the surface, they wanted to stick with the traditional Latin Mass. In reality, they wanted to maintain the Church's power over the commoners by keeping the Mass mysterious.

And to remain on topic, my second gripe is both of them, P's to a lesser degree, trying their hardest to keep gay marriage illegal... non-legal... Okay, you can do it, but no one recognizes it. You know what I mean.

I have that same gripe. I give the Episcopalians all the credit in the world for allowing openly gay clergy to serve. The Catholics ... well ... as I've said, they have a tendency not to be the most forward-thinking of institutions. I haven't known the Catholic Church to fight against gay marriage as combatively as some other denominations, but they are certainly not for it. Unfortunately.

 

[GBJoker]

Greek Orthodox is arguably older than Catholicism, so we have to remove them from this discussion. But your point is valid, to a certain extent. Martin Luther posted his 95 Theses in 1521. The printing press had been invented only some 40 or 50 years previous to that, so the knowledge was coming but it wasn't yet widespread. That applied to the problem somewhat as well. You could view it as some of the Protestants embracing the new technology, translating the Bible to the vernacular and making it more accessible to the people. The Catholic Church on the other hand, had a different idea. On the surface, they wanted to stick with the traditional Latin Mass. In reality, they wanted to maintain the Church's power over the commoners by keeping the Mass mysterious.

Psh, expected. Stinkin' Catholics... Wanting to control us and... stuff.

I have that same gripe. I give the Episcopalians all the credit in the world for allowing openly gay clergy to serve. The Catholics ... well ... as I've said, they have a tendency not to be the most forward-thinking of institutions. I haven't known the Catholic Church to fight against gay marriage as combatively as some other denominations, but they are certainly not for it. Unfortunately.

It's just a downright hell for us gays and bi's...

Oddly enough, all of my atheist friends stopped talking to me after coming out, but all my religious friends are still my friends and I talk to them regularly, etc.

 

[Pokeslob]

I am a non-denominational christian for one.
but I am in love with Catholic artwork, and the amount of respect they have. and the church I go to is part of the Vineyard Church Movement. And I get really deep there in discussion and worship.

so there is a plus side to both, but here is whats going down...

the word "denomination" is a longer word for separation.
Jesus said to "Love each other as I love you" and it is also stated, may not have been by Jesus but still in the Bible, that we as christians should never divide.

So I believe that we as christians should put so much emphasis on what denomination you are a part of, wether Catholic, Baptist, or whatever.
We should just be pulled together as followers of christ, and just be harmonious in our love of God.

and for that matter our love for other people. some TV preachers are filled with so much hate for sinners that they forget that we ourselves are also sinners. going back to Jesus, the number one commandment from Jesus is "Love each other as I love you"
The word Christian literally means "Christ like" so we need to take this commandment very seriously!
when we preach to others, or even when we are just being with others we need to see everyone the same way God sees them
so all racists, discriminators, hateful radical religious types, etc. just need to look and understand that we are all humans, creations of God

so away with labels, races, whatever

 

[The Illusive Man]

Personally I have no problem with Protestants, and I'm an Irish Roman Catholic (albeit non-practicing) but I really dislike the Zealous believers that exist on both sides that were responsible for the War between RI and NI and the atrocities that were commited during it.

Sometimes I feel relgion is nothing more than an excuse to some people to fight over and because of that I am non-practising. I can never forget seeing the massacre of the school children in the streets of Belfast on the news, or the loyalist's hand grenading innocent bystanders at a funeral procession, It does force the bitter reality into my mind, that some people just use anything as an excuse to kill other people, and that thought always sickens me.

 

[.Ted]

Indeed, it's really sad to see people doing evil things "in the name of Jesus Christ". Another reason people distance themselves from religion.

But let's keep in mind, not all Christians are like that. There are some good examples on both sides just as much as there are bad ones. It's pretty rare to see a selfless person nowadays, but I know they're out there. It's all I can say about that, anyway, so carry on.

 

[eye of the divine]

With regards to protistants and cathoilcs I know its two very differant ways of practicing your faith but I just don't understand why people get into arguments when it in essance it all goes to the same place.

I must admit for me personally find it very difficult to follow an institution that although at the time thought they were doing the right thing but in reality they killed millions of people, for me its compleatly off putting.

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against people who follow their faith and for those that are I think its an amazing thing but I can't ignore the damage its caused over the centuries.

 

[CassinoChips]

Just a wee point here, but I think that's only true in America. Over here in Europe, the vast majority of Protestant denominations (that I've come across anyway) believe in original sin, and therefore practise infant baptism.

That's probably true. We tend to get the more Baptist-style denominations over here, as opposed to the Calvinist/Lutherans that (I believe) are more predominant across the pond.

 

[FinalHeart]

My biggest gripe has always been, and always will be, the tension between Protestants and Catholics. Their religions are so GODDAMN similar, yet they fight so much that they essentially split Ireland in half. It's like they enjoy killing each other over insignificant details.

In the big picture, they're pretty much the same damn religion. Yet they fight among themselves.

 

[Rydia]

I was raised in a Catholic family in a predominately Catholic town. It was settled mainly by german and Irish immigrants. (So there is also a lot of drinking There were a few Protestants that I knew growing up. I personally never saw any tension between Protestants and Catholics where I lived. I do know that it exists out there. I went to school and was friends with a few protestants and I was surprised when I found out that the two groups hated each other D:. (This was when I was young.) Maybe I just live in a very strange place.

I also went to catholic school and we did have protestant students attending. My high school never allowed any "Catholic superiority" because there were non catholic students at the school. There were a few Jewish students at the school and the school hung up decorations for them during their holidays along with the the christian decorations.

The school also offered world religion classes and religion that focused on other relgions if anyone wanted to learn about them. It as very proactive in promoting tolerance towards other religions. Religion classes were required every semester, but one teacher said at the very begining that if we didn't like religion or were not religious, then to take the class as a history or literature class, academic only.

But hatred between the two is stupid and out dated. Christians and Protestants do have very simular beliefs. I think one of the major differences is that the Catholics honor the virgin Mary. And they have statues which is seen to be sacreligious by some faiths. But even if there were major differences, that is still no reason for any hatred.

Oh yeah, and there is the birth control issue, but most Catholics I know ignore that and figure that the rule will be changed when the older generation of leaders die.

Probably the strangest question I've ever been asked is if my family was in the mafia XD

I think most of it comes from the older generation. When my mother was younger, she was told that it was a sin to look inside of a protestant church. So... she and her friends one day looked inside one and felt like hard core bad girls... Any younger people that feel this way are probaby from very traditional fundamentalist families.

 

[.Ted]

Time to punch in my input. After all, guess who started this topic?

It wasn't until I met my uncle and aunt at 10 years of age when I started learning about Catholicism. Their efforts, well, were not good enough, so I quit sunday school when I was given the chance.

Didn't care much about Christianity in general until the week before I turned 17, which is when I started reading the New Testament. Lo and behold, my faith in Christianity finally awakens.

It wasn't until about a year later that I started reading a book (in Spanish) about the differences between Catholics and other Christian sects (namely Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses). Former Catholics would tell you that their faith in Christ truly awakened when they left the Catholic Church. Well, mine truly awoke when I found out more about Catholicism.

I was amazed, and I'm a guy who severely criticized the ways of the Catholic people. Personally, I don't approve of the birth control issue. But since I'm still a virgin anyway (which I find as a good thing), I can't really speak about this issue without angering others.

I have my gripes about Catholics still, but none are a big deal. My biggest gripe on the Protestants, namely Jehovah witnesses, is how some believe that they are right no matter how wrong they really are. And also how some isolate a verse from the Bible when it would make more sense to read the chapter.

It's like this. I send you all a letter. First words you see? "I''ll sue you all!" But you read the whole thing, and in reality it says "Oh did you see that episode of the Simpsons when there was a drawing of Homer that said 'I'll sue you all'?" See what I'm trying to say?

Other than that, Protestants don't bother me. While I do not approve of some things, at least they believe in the same God. For now, that's good enough for me.