A Nation Divided?

[AddleBoy]

According to a few different articles I've read online, several thousands of people in states across the US are signing petitions with the goal of seceding from the Union.

http://gawker.com/5959719/we-the-pe...s-seeking-permission-to-secede-from-the-union

What do you guys think of this? Do you think this is a good idea? If this were to ever happen, how do you think these states would survive? Honestly, I doubt that the government would ever agree to let any state secede even if they had enough signatures in their petitions.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

Well let me tell you something Addle...

The idea of the seceding from the Union post-Civil War isn't really new, besides the usual culprits, which is the Neo-Confederate Movement and the Texan Separatist Movement, we also have, among others, Alaska, Hawaii, the Lakota Indians (North and South Dakota, Nebraska, Wyoming and Montana), Puerto Rico, Vermont and Cascadia (Oregon, Washington and British Columbia, Canada) and that's just those that are still active, among others. Within the past two yeats there has also been a New Afrika movement (Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina), a Communist Minnesota, an Independent New York City, New York State, a pan-Indian Nation in Oklahoma, South Carolina, a Mexican-American State in the American Southwest (Arizona and New Mexico) et.al.

The basis is, all these movements are pipe dreams. For one, American secessionism is illegal, and although 1 in 4 Americans believe that states or even regions have the right to separate from the United States, it's essentially going to be an uphill battle no matter how it works out.

Besides, you're more likely to find more successful secessionist movements abroad than in America, if what they say about the various European nations are concerned.

 

[Shu]

I could go on a rant that it's probably a bunch of bible pushers, or racists. Though honestly.. I don't have much of an opinion because I didn't vote. To me it's no longer about one man or woman running an entire country.

I am not for what America stands for today. True I am safe, and there are a bunch of men and women fighting to keep my liberties.. though this is what I have to say about that:

I would rather trade most of it for honesty. I would rather not have to think that one day my kids will have to look over their back and question their actions on the internet because some indicative cunt is spying on what they surf. I wish American Idol was ripped from the air. I wish all reality television was trashed. It's not reality television if put planned acting in the show. I wish that shows such as Wipeout or anything where they show balding men, fat women, noisy women, and annoying men run through obstacles and be laughed at by 1million+ people on the air.

I wish the news was uncensored and unbiased. I wish slightly funded people could have a chance in the election, instead of who the major banks backed. Obama is a face, Romney is a face. They are all drones, and this election had nothing to do with actual give a damns.

Our government will try, no matter what, to make a buck off you. Even if it's because of refusing to put on your seat belt. How many licenses and taxes are there in America? Do you know that kids in most states now have to have licenses to sell lemonades on corners? Do you know that blowing up a home made bomb in your back yard is illegal now? That could be as much as a couple of fireworks tied together. Pretty soon there will be licenses to have animals. (aside from exotic).

America is now wired into the entertainment industry more than ever. Remember when the most scary movie back in the day, was about an alien or zombies? Now what.. torture films? Borderline smut films? It's weird.. you can be as violent and as awful as can be.. but you can't be anti government.. or your shit doesn't get aired.

 

[Linnaete]

WAAAAAAAH, fuck that Muslim, atheist, Nazi, fascist, communist, socialist Barack Hussein Obama, who isn't even American and is just some random guy from Kenya wanting to destroy this great country and turn it into a Muslim gay atheist paradise where no one will need to work because the government will just hand out money and free stuff to everyone like big houses and cars. OBAMA ISN'T AMERICAN AND NEITHER ARE THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM. NONE OF THEM ARE AMERICAN!!

Therefore, let's do the most American thing possible to save ourselves by...seceding from the United States...of America. Oh. Yeah, funny that. I bet you that the vast lot of those signatures are from people who see themselves as proud Americans as well. As a foreign observer, I am very amused.

They'll be fucked anyway, even if they somehow do succeed. I'd like to see how long a...I dunno, a completely non-tax utopia with values that are pretty much lifted from the early 20th century, a virtually theocratic government and no federal aid at all in the event of I dunno, another big natural disaster? - will last for. And the rest of America will probably lose out a bit too. Isn't there a thriving oil industry in Louisiana anyway, and that important Mississippi mouth?

And here I am thinking that an independent Scotland sounds a bit unfeasible.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

You see there's the thing, secession is never feasible. While it is a good alternative for those people (using minorities) who believe that the government is doing jack-all, (which Greece doesn't apply since it's generally homogeneously Greek) it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the best thing.

To be honest, I don't believe secession will ever be done peacefully (or as close to it as it was back in 1991) if you want to divide a nation, you're going to have to fight for it, not with words, but by shooting enough people.

 

[Shaissa]

I read this early in the morning, and really I wonder how many that sign the petition are 100% willing to go as far as to declare there independence and willing to fight for it from the U.S. military?

I mean do I like plans that this president put into place? No but I'm not going say that he isn't doing what he feels is best for everyone. I mean we are all going disagree about things and we have the right to say we don't like it, go against it, everything. So I wish those that say they are going to secede from the union the best of luck. Cali if Ron Paul runs any of these governments that are going to succeed I will move with you

 

[Master Cat]

What is America coming to? ~.~ Recounting the vote? What, do they want to hold another election to see if Romney wins next time? Who knows. It's possible I guess, since probably more Republicans than ever would vote to ensure that would happen.

When I saw this petition, I had to laugh. xD A petition to "strip the citizenship from everyone who signed a petition to secede and exhile them." Already at 5.5k+ signatures. Not such a bad idea imo. If you wanna be ballsy enough to sign to secede from the U.S., you should get your citizenship taken away. You clearly don't want it, and you probably don't deserve it. Not so sure about deporting them though. That seems pretty harsh. xD;

Honestly, I just don't like the idea of people randomly signing these petitions for the heck of it. While the White House may not take these things so seriously (even though there's "power in numbers" I suppose), people have to consider the consequences of their actions in the event that it is taken seriously.

Also, I don't understand why people from other states are being allowed to sign petitions for other states to secede. ...Excuse me? I don't agree with NY seceding from the "U.S. Government" (that's how the NY petition is worded anyhow) because I don't really see the benefit of that at this point. If tons of New Yorkers wanna sign it and stand up for their "rights," so be it.

But why the heck are people from FL and other states giving their "OK" on this? Uhh, you have your own state to worry about. Even if these are people who used to live in NY, I don't consider a non-New Yorker's vote to be valid in this matter. Of course, there's no realistically efficient way of verifying the locations of these petitioners anyhow. What, checking their IP addresses? There's already thousands of signatures at this point. I doubt they'd create some sort of computer algorithm to verify that information for each and every petition... -.-;

 

[Master Cat]

This is the Declaration of Independence and it gives every American-citizen (even you) the birth right to be able to practice their freedom to overthrow a tyrant government and institute a new one, so long as THE PEOPLE agree to it. It is not, and never will be so long as we are a FREE country, an act of tyranny. THEREFORE, it is not an act that is punishable by deportation or stripping you of your citizenship. These people signing those petitions are practicing the very same thing that our founding fathers practiced when they were building this country. If you want to deport and strip the citizenship of U.S. civilians over this, then you're basically saying that the founding fathers should have been deported and stripped of citizenship when they did the VERY SAME THING to England... making you the anti-American, meaning you would be a Loyalist to England... meaning UNAMERICAN.

Now, that said, I am not in support of their reasons for doing this solely because I don't know WHAT their reasons are. If they want to secede just to institute the same policies as the Liberals/Republicans in current government, I think they're just being bitter over Romney losing. HOWEVER, if they honestly want to secede because they feel that the status quo isn't acceptable for the people any longer, then I support their right to do this.

But do not call them un-American for only practicing the very same thing that the founding fathers did when they were seceding from England. If they didn't do that, this whole country could belong to France or England right about now.

If that makes me "anti-American" in any way, then I really don't care. I'm not the most patriotic person around, and I've criticized American culture on numerous occasions for being downright ridiculous at times. With that said, I also don't agree with how the government handles certain issues. It can be quite helpful and beneficial to some people, and then screw over others just as easily. The only reason I voted 4 years ago and this year is because I feel that it is my civic responsibility to do so, and I enjoy supporting particular candidates for one reason or another. That's how I practice my "freedom of speech."

Now, would it be considered unconstitutional to strip people's citizenship away if they want to secede from the U.S.? I'm not so sure about that. Technically? Perhaps. However, these people aren't necessarily asking for a new U.S. government through these petitions - they're asking to disassociate themselves with the U.S. and create a new government/nation/whatever-the-heck-they-wanna-call-it. If anything, stripping them of their citizenship would only ease that transition, no? o.O

So, in my personal opinion, it would be just fine to strip them of citizenship. I don't see it as "punishment." (It's more like approval if you ask me.) It just seems like a logical sequence when one wishes to withdraw from something. Get rid of the label. Break the connection. They're practically asking for it. And if they wanted to become citizens again for whatever reason, perhaps they could have the opportunity to do that someday.

If these petitions said, "We the people peacefully request a new form of government for the U.S." then that would be an entirely different matter. But no, they're asking to secede from the U.S., and according to my limited knowledge of politics - because I'm honestly not fond of politics in any sense - it means that they want to withdraw from the U.S.

It's one thing to complain about America (the way that I do sometimes) and say, "Oh, I don't like the U.S. I wish I lived somewhere else with a different style of government." It's another thing to consciously and willing sign a petition saying that you want to withdraw from the U.S. as a country, a nation, a government, etc. Very different. More serious. I'm just saying that this shouldn't be taken lightly and that I hope the people signing realize the consequences (if there are any). It's not merely "freedom of speech" in my book.

But then again, who cares about "my book," right? I'm not a political pundit or political science buff. I can't drop knowledge on people since I've never been interested in delving into the world of politics, or even history and government for that matter. I'm just speaking from my perspective on the matter, and no matter how "anti-American" it may seem, I'm still expressing my right to freedom of speech. Those petitioners are different because they're expressing their rights in the process of denouncing and withdrawing from America (the nation that technically gave them that freedom and right).

 

[Linnaete]

There are gay, muslim, atheist republicans, you know that right?

No, Cali. I genuinely thought that the Republican party was 100% WASPs as stereotyped. You have just shattered my bubble and you've opened my eyes.

I am well aware of the fact that any party anywhere can have minorities, even a small handful. I'm not really sure what you read in my post there that insinuates that I didn't know that. I was painting a satirical reflection of some of the meltdowns I've seen towards Obama's re-election where every adjective under the sun that ostensibly sounds "un-American" to those Republicans who were being apocalyptic and detached from reality (obviously, not all of them!), were hurled at Obama. I am sure there are significant numbers of Republicans who are still level-headed and sane, but the problem for them are the many others in the GOP that are pretty much believing that Obama is the Anti-Christ and that this is the worst era in American history.

And I have to feel sorry for those gay, Muslim, atheist Republicans then. They're basically in a party that has lately driven out most of its more moderate, Rockefeller types in favour of rabble that no other first world country in the world would dare to elect. I've seen the primaries. Being in the same party as someone like Michele Bachmann and Rick Santorum is downright frightening.

Besides that, despite Obama manipulating the gay vote by saying to MTV that he "supports" gay marriage (therefore misleading them into thinking he meant he'd legalize gay marriage), he said after he won the election that he would leave it up to the states to decide if gay marriage is passed... Basically, he lied and gave a big "F you" to the gays. He solely used them for their vote in order to win the election.

Which election? The one that's just happened? Aren't you jumping the gun here? It could still well happen, depending on the inevitable state of opposition from the Republican-dominated House of Representatives obviously.

Besides, I'm not too surprised. I've typically seen Obama as the type of person who isn't immediately keen on the thought of gay marriage due to his religion and values, but rather the sort of person who doesn't believe that the federal government should be able to deny the right to do so. He isn't the most progressive person out there, but on social issues, he's a damn sight better than what the GOP would have offered.

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new Government."

That's fine and dandy for them, though I question that bit on government being "destructive". I suppose maybe if the Obama administration in the second term breaks from its cage, destroys Congress or fills it entirely with Democrats, establishes a dictatorship, appoints Obama as President for life, behaves like Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe, and turns its nuclear weapons or military on neighbours.

On a related thought, I'd have surely thought that the idea of "taking back" the government by force would be an idea they're happy to go first with, rather than talk about secession. I guess that 47% lot is beyond saving, huh?

But do not call them un-American for only practicing the very same thing that the founding fathers did when they were seceding from England. If they didn't do that, this whole country could belong to France or England right about now.

The founding fathers wanted to secede from a British Empire under a batty King George III that had been for quite some time genuinely rough-handed and tyrannical like most other imperial powers of its ilk. And yes, I say that as a Brit. Though sometimes I do entertain the idea of what America would be like if Britain still held on to it. I'm picturing something like Canada, that well-known hellhole.

The difference here is that I presume just because a bunch of people hate the terrible idea of four more years of that Anti-Christ Obama and all those terrible things that strangely didn't happen in his first term will now suddenly happen, it's a good idea to do the equivalent of making a scene during a game and storming out of the ballpark. The right to secede from something you don't like may be the epitome of being American to you, but I can't help but the see the mentality of: "fuck this. America's doomed thanks to those left-wing, jobless, GIMME-THE-GODDAMN-FREE-HANDOUTS bottom-feeders. We're out of here. America's dead." or something being utterly unpatriotic.

That being said, if they want to do so, then fine. I did say before that they'll probably struggle and that sooner or later the consequential reality will start to prickle them like needles. But as long as that theocracy will be there to put them all in a nice, cosy bubble, detached even further from the plane of reality, I suppose it shouldn't be too bad for them.

 

[Ness]

The idea of secession in the modern era is absurd.

1) It won't work because we already tried it and fought a war over it. In the aftermath of the Civil War, the federal government was able to consolidate its power so that the states would never have the power to secede again. The Civil War was fought because the question of "state vs. national" was evenly matched and the states that supported "state" decided to make a break for it and make their own country. The national government was certainly not being oppressive at this point, the Confederacy just wanted to keep doing things their way.

2) The statistics that the media produces are misleading. They keep saying things like "omg every state wants to secede" but the movements in each state are miniscule. Texas produced the most signatures on a petition with around 120,000 signatures. Unfortunately for them, Texas has over 25 million citizens, which makes this represent about 0.5% of the population. This is hardly a mandate.

3) The modern secessionists bother me most because they are just being whiny about the outcome of the election. You would not see these movements if the election results had been different. It is immature to basically say "I'm not happy so I am leaving". There are some lovely borders to the north and south, as well as magical flying tubes that can take you to any other country that you wish. Perhaps if people weren't so whiny and more active, the actual problems in this country would start getting solved.

 

[Davey Gaga]

This is the political equivalent of picking up your ball in the middle of a football game and going home. Thank Christ the better half of the country made the decision to vote Obama; clearly, the other half (who already have one strike for voting Romney) are unstable!

 

[Shinra Executive]

According to a few different articles I've read online, several thousands of people in states across the US are signing petitions with the goal of seceding from the Union.

http://gawker.com/5959719/we-the-pe...s-seeking-permission-to-secede-from-the-union

What do you guys think of this? Do you think this is a good idea? If this were to ever happen, how do you think these states would survive? Honestly, I doubt that the government would ever agree to let any state secede even if they had enough signatures in their petitions.

They would just get annexed if they did, yes. The thing about getting annexed is that there is no debate- you're just deemed part of the country and that's it
It happened when Texas fancied itself as it's own country. They had their own currency and president n shit- then boom- part of America.