Abortion - Should the Father Have A Say?

[Lirael]

To mods: I know we already have a thread on abortion itself, but I felt this was slightly different and more specific.

Whilst watching T.V. the other week, I caught a few snippets of an argument on the rights of men during pregnancy. The man was arguing that the father should be present when the woman is discussing her decision to have an abortion. He seemed to believe that the man should be able to oppose the abortion - two parents create a life, two should end it. The decision shouldn't belong to the woman alone.

Although I can understand where he's coming from, I don't really think it's fair to involve the man unless the woman invites him to the meeting. There are few women who won't find the decision to abort distressing and abortion can be an incredibly traumatic experience.

Even though, on the one hand, the man could support the woman in her decision and provide comfort where comfort is needed, if we introduce a law that says the man's wants must be heard and then factored into the decision, some women are going to have children they don't really want.

I don't want to imply that men are manipulative - far from it. However, if a woman loves a man, his wants are going to manipulate her decision. If a woman doesn't want the child but her spouse does, she may feel inclined to go through with the pregnancy to make him happy. She'll go through 9 months of emotional turmoil as her hormones change, she'll have to go through with giving birth (the man can't do it for her), and then she'll have to raise a child for 18+ years.

I know that fathers are half of what makes a child, but the fathers don't have to go through with the changes women do. They don't have to see and feel their body change and they don't have to take weeks off work to raise a child; some women will find taking time off work difficult.

Is it fair risk having women make a decision that's not really theirs?

Who should we protect? The mother, who isn't able to avoid the pregnancy and thus must be physically and emotionally affected, or the father, who may not know about the child at all?

I won't even go into the rights of men who are purposefully manipulative, aggressive and/or cruel. I doubt many people would defend their rights to have a say...

 

[Marquis of Granby]

yes. the father should have a say provided he has the intention of bringing the child up and not just fucking the mother and leaving her to it.

saying that he can manipulate her decision is all good and well but by that same token we should condemn religion. many women no doubt have children they dont really want because of the religious views they hold - because god tells them its wrong to get rid of a child. is that alright?

"and then she'll have to raise the child for 18+ years". nah see thats why theyre called parentS. if the father of the child genuinely wants to be involved in the upbringing then the mother isnt left to it. and those 18+ years are much more stressful than the 9 months of pregnancy im sure. and lets face it. it doesnt end there. youve got them for life.

the reality is that there are so many fathers who want to be involved in their child's life but they are denied the chance because the mother "carried it for 9 months". if a man is just sperm in the eyes of the law how is he supposed to have a proper relationship with his children?

 

[Mermaid]

I am not too sure what to think about this. I am very Pro-Choice... however I do believe it takes two to tango, and while the woman who is pregnant should have every right to go ahead and have an abortion if it is confirmed she can, I do see the father's point of view. Hmm. Quite stuck on this one. :S However the embryo is inside the woman, growing, and as she should have every right to decide what is right for her body I think in the end the woman should have the final say - disagreeing with the father or not.

 

[Davey Gaga]

women are going to have children they don't really want.

And what about the men who don't want children and end up fathers when they don't want to be?

My ex and I had a relatively awkward debate on abortion. She hates abortion, I'm pro-choice. We weren't using condoms but she had the implant...after that conversation, I doubled up.

It takes two to tango. Men are often slagged off for having to step up to the mark as they share in the responsibility for the child. You can't have it both ways, ladies. That child is 50% yours, aye, but it's 50% his, too. You have no right to stop the man having a say in the decision and that's that.

 

[Sexy Beast]

Pending on two things, yes I think the father should have a say.

The first being is the father responsible enough to even take care of the child? If he has a steady income(something that a somewhat comfortable living environment can be). If so, then he should have a say in this matter. And the second being is he ready to give up his partying, social life to be a man, and raise a child. I believe these two things are key if the father wants to have any say in the abortion. However, if none of these are met, then of course the father doesn't have any right.

But also, it's the girl's body, so she has the majority of the say in it, only if the father isn't responsible or ready to man up.

 

[Donald Trump]

The first being is the father responsible enough to even take care of the child? If he has a steady income(something that a somewhat comfortable living environment can be). If so, then he should have a say in this matter.

So poor people aren't allowed to have children?
I couldn't disagree more, as you are excluding poor people just because they don't earn x amount of dollars. I think that's an utterly repellent idea. I know that you don't actually hate poor people, it just sounds like you do. Also no amount of money can make up for being a shit father. Either all men have a say, or none do.

And what about the men who don't want children and end up fathers when they don't want to be?

It depends what you mean by fathers. They have to see the child at all if they don't want to. Nor is there any guarantee that they'll have to pay child support. I don't think that's a very compelling argument. Men don't have babies living in their stomachs, nor do they have to raise the child if they don't want to, nor does the child suck milk from the man's nipple.

I don't want to imply that men are manipulative - far from it. However, if a woman loves a man, his wants are going to manipulate her decision. If a woman doesn't want the child but her spouse does, she may feel inclined to go through with the pregnancy to make him happy. She'll go through 9 months of emotional turmoil as her hormones change, she'll have to go through with giving birth (the man can't do it for her), and then she'll have to raise a child for 18+ years.

The first part of what you said works both ways. However I think it is unlikely that a woman who loves a man enough to have his child even though she doesn't want to, would abort the foetus thing without telling him about it.

I'm against the idea on the whole.
Mainly because it would never work. I think this would only apply if the potential mother and father had separated, in which case no amount of discussion would change the mind of the women. I also think that if it became a law then it would allow rapists to talk to the women they raped about whether or not she aborts his rape baby. I quite like the term rape baby, but rape foetus might be more accurate, even if that does sound like some awful metal band.
However I think as a matter of common courtesy, the woman involved should tell the man, and he could ask to talk to her, or he could not.

 

[Sexy Beast]

So poor people aren't allowed to have children?
I couldn't disagree more,[ as you are excluding poor people just because they don't earn x amount of dollars. I think that's an utterly repellent idea. I know that you don't actually hate poor people, it just sounds like you do. Also no amount of money can make up for being a shit father. Either all men have a say, or none do.

I wasn't implying that Poor people can't have children because I know they can and do. Hell, most of those said poor parents raise some pretty fantastic kids. I was simply stating that if the parents in this situation are teens, and they really don't have the best support system or even a suitable living environment, then they shouldn't be raising a child especially if they can't take care of themselves.

You never know. You could be making minimum wage(and yes this is pretty much contradicting my previous post), and you can still be the best father in the world, morally. It just matters on whether or not if the man raising the kid wants to have him/her or not.

 

[L]

I think that a father should be able to be free of the responsibility of being a father if they did not want to be a father, but it is ultimately the woman's say in the matter.

So no, as long as the man does not receive the unwanted responsibilities of being a father, I do not feel that they should have a choice.

But if those terms cannot be met, I believe that the father should have a choice in the matter. However, if he doesn't want the child, but she does... It's just going to sit in there until it's born or she has a bad fall.

 

[Bambi]

No. It's not their body. I'm not saying they shouldn't have a say, but ultimately if the woman wants an abortion, how can a man force her to continue with a pregnancy she doesn't want? He has a right to know, but until that baby is born then it's the womans body and ultimately any decision lies with her. Im not condoning women that go behind backs and do it, or use it as some kind of ammunition, or the other side where a woman will get pregnant on purpose etc thats a whole other topic. But ultimately, 50% his or not - it's not his body. Hes not the one being pregnant for 9 months, and then having to give birth.

I think that a father should be able to be free of the responsibility of being a father if they did not want to be a father, but it is ultimately the woman's say in the matter.

I agree with that, you shouldnt be forced to provide for a child that you openly stated you didnt want. But then on the other hand, how hard is it just to use a condom - if you're gunna put your trust in a girl that says she's on the pill, then more fool you (probably more if you havent been seeing her long, or she has 3 kids to 3 different dads or summat). Ah I dont know its a dodgy subject. You cant expect to shirk your responsibilities because you both decided to have a shag and something went wrong or you didnt think it would happen. Just like you cant force a woman to keep a child, you cant force her to get rid either, as a man, its the risk you take and if you really dont want to face up to your responsibilities then take extra care with your contraception, or just dont have sex at all

So no, Ive xchanged my mind. Unless its like some exteme circumstance, where shes like, syphoning your sperm, or not taking her pill deliberately or poking pin holes in condoms (which I suppose youd then have to prove...) then you have to face up to the consequences

 

[Davey Gaga]

No. It's not their body. I'm not saying they shouldn't have a say, but ultimately if the woman wants an abortion, how can a man force her to continue with a pregnancy she doesn't want? He has a right to know, but until that baby is born then it's the womans body and ultimately any decision lies with her. Im not condoning women that go behind backs and do it, or use it as some kind of ammunition, or the other side where a woman will get pregnant on purpose etc thats a whole other topic. But ultimately, 50% his or not - it's not his body. Hes not the one being pregnant for 9 months, and then having to give birth.

Looking at it from the other side, what about the lifetime commitment after the birth? This argument looks at men forcing women to continue with pregnancies but where's the protection for men who DON'T want the woman to go through with the pregnancy? Why should they be forced to become fathers just because the woman is pregnant for the first 9 months?

I'm not saying it's the man's decision. I'm saying it's as much his at is is hers.

I agree with that, you shouldnt be forced to provide for a child that you openly stated you didnt want. But then on the other hand, how hard is it just to use a condom - if you're gunna put your trust in a girl that says she's on the pill, then more fool you (probably more if you havent been seeing her long, or she has 3 kids to 3 different dads or summat). Ah I dont know its a dodgy subject. You cant expect to shirk your responsibilities because you both decided to have a shag and something went wrong or you didnt think it would happen. Just like you cant force a woman to keep a child, you cant force her to get rid either, as a man, its the risk you take and if you really dont want to face up to your responsibilities then take extra care with your contraception, or just dont have sex at all

Aren't you normally very, very pro-choice on the matter? This sounds like an anti-abortion argument.

 

[Bambi]

Nah, I'l always be pro choice all im saying is whatever the final decision is, lies with the woman regardless of how the man feels about it, it's just not his body, and unless you can genetically engineer a man to carry a child, ultimately, that decision rests with the woman in question, i dont care if its 50% his, those rights just dont apply until/if that child is born. It wouldn't exist without him or her, but additionally it wouldnt survive without just her from the point of conception

Im not saying it's fair, but I would not allow no one to tell me what I can and can not do with my body. But then, I just wouldn't put myself in that position in the first place, if I'm getting pregnant it's because we both want a child, so it's not like I will ever be in that situation anyway

Anyway, I bet there are a lot of women out there that have gone through with a pregnancy when they havent really wanted to because of some man putting pressure on, and likewise I bet there are alot of women that have had abortions

The man is entitled to a say and an opionion, but there is no way he should be allowed to legally force a woman into carrying on with a pregnancy she doesnt want

edit* the man should always have a right to know and the right to discuss what he wants to happen - im in no way disputing that, and Id never go behind someones back or be cruel enough to say fuck you im getting rid. It'd be an ideal world where 2 people could sit down and rationally discuss what was gunna happen next

 

[Harlequin]

...I don't really think so. It's the woman's body, if he wanted kids maybe he should have found a woman prepared to have them for him, just like a woman has to find a man to stick around for the family.

 

[Amabdaan]

In my perfect world, if either the woman or the man want's to go ahead with the abortion, it should be done. I think the decision of bringing a baby into the world, is such a huge commitment and responsibility that both parents should be willing to raise this child.
If the woman wants an abortion, it should be that way, because a child without the love from a mom, will miss out and it will have consequenses imo.
If a man dosent want the child, tht wish should be respected...why not ?
If I were in the situation, tht my gf was pregnant and I just coulden't see a baby fitting into my/our life now, it would be so wrong to deny me the right to say, I don't want this child. If she still wants a baby, well then get the abortion, let me go and then she can have a baby with someone else. I would hate the fact (and the girl) if she wanted the baby even though she knew I did'nt. Yes I could leave but in the back of my mind I would know tht I have a child...thats just not fair because I will look like the bad guy!

 

[Free Flyer]

I think the man should of course have a say. While the mother may want to terminate the pregnancy, that man may want a baby more than anything. It shouldn't be up to her to take that away without his consent. While I believe that, yes, a woman should be in charge of her own life, she shouldn't be allowed to take charge of the father's. She shouldn't be allowed to abort the pregnancy if the father doesn't agree. Whether she likes it or not, they need to come to some sort of compromise. It could be adoption, or the mother giving up rights, but either way it should be fair. As stated before, it takes two to tango, so it should take two to quit.

 

[Six]

Of course the man should have a say. Say you're in a healthy relationship, I don't think anyone would just disregard their opinion, and slam the "It's my body!" stamp on it. Just because they want to have their say and fill you in on their opinion it doesn't mean they're trying to force the pregnancy on to you, or to manipulate your mind, they probably are just as concerned for YOU as you are about yourself and the baby.

Sure, they might want you to change your mind, but I'm sure most men are aware that, after all, it IS inside of the woman, so yes, she should have the final say, I definitely agree. I also think that if you communicate about this before hand, before you actually have children, you can respect and deal with each other's opinion and decisions a lot better, rather then being in an already stressful situation trying to talk some, what seems 'sense' to you, in to the others head.

Sure, you might not come to an agreement, but if it's something you think you won't be able to deal with, don't go in to the relationship period, because you can't change an opinion this big just because you disagree.

All in all, both should have a fair say, and that point should be respected on both sides, but yeah, I do think it's up to the woman in the end, because it is inside of us after all. =/ I really don't agree with what someone said about the "woman" having to raise the kid +18 years, have you not seen dads do this? Single dads?

Do you know how worried some dads are about their little girls? Or boys? Yeah... I grew up with just my mom, but I've seen lots of "Couple" parents, both work their asses off to raise the kid together.

I think both should have a say, but that in the end the woman should have the final decision, with the man's choices considered. I also believe the guys have a right to know, like Kelly said.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

Of course, the perfect remedy for all of this is to just not have sex unless you're ready to have children since...ye know, that's what sex exists for. Despite what everyone seems to think, while sex happens to be "fun" to do, it's purpose isn't for fun. It's for producing offspring.

thats an unfortunate side effect of it (unless you're looking to have kids then its very fortunate) but sex is fun, and that is a common purpose for it. to say that its solely for reproducing wouldnt explain why two males or two females would want to engage in sexual relations with each other, or why we stimulate our genitals for pleasure (masturbation).

that is A remedy, its not THE remedy, because sex is fun, it should be explored. theres no reason for it to be taboo (unless your religious beliefs tell you it should be). another remedy would be to be extra careful with contraception, or in some cases literally just to use it. because you get daft folk who dont use any sort of contraception and then they wonder why the keeping getting stds or why they keep getting pregnant.

i also think its not as black and white as you've made it out to be. pregnancy can be innocent, a couple just out to enjoy themselves and the condom splits, or she forgets to take her pill etc. its not always as straight forward as SHES A FUCKING HUSSY.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

It might be common but that doesn't justify it.

Because our bodies make us "crave" it to entice us into having sex. It's your body's natural way into making you want sex so you have to produce.

It's like the pretty light on the top of the Angler-fishes' head that they use to lure their prey with. It's primal trickery so we're forced to reproduce.

Sex is "fun" to us because if it wasn't would we(during our primal stages when we weren't civilized and thinking intelligently) really have sex in the first place? No. So evolution gave us that urge to want it because it "felt good" so we would have a reason to have sex in the first place--therefor allowing us to continue on with our species. As I already pointed out, before we evolved into intelligent beings, we would have no reason for taking part in sex unless it was "fun" or "felt good". Why? Because being less intelligent than we are now, we wouldn't know to put two and two together and realize it had to be done for the survival of our species.

Example, cats and dogs only mate when one of them are in heat. When they're in heat they're bodies crave it. If sex existed for fun as much as it did for producing, my female and male dog would by on each other all the time. But they're not. Instead, they mate when the girls in heat. It's the bodies way into tricking us into producing offspring. Make it fun and we have a reason to do it.
​

its primal yes, but thats not all it is. humans invented purpose, so it is what we say it is. and one of the purposes for sex and masturbation alike is to give us pleasure. masturbation for women can often be more pleasurable than sex and it doesnt lead to reproduction.

and male cats will fuck anything. they literally dont mind which hole theyre sticking it in. even if its another male cat's arsehole - and yes they do it. and guess what. bumsex doesnt produce babies, cali. and i should add that there are plenty of species of animals that have barbed cocks and such i doubt thats very enjoyable for the receiver. look at lions for instance, i dont make a habbit of watching animals mate, but their lovemaking doesnt seem too loving to me. they will fight, then the female will be pinned down before literally being forced into the doggy position as you might call it. i dunno about you but that doesnt look to pleasurable to me, lion king lies to us
​

All religious reasons aside... what about making it taboo in order to not destroy the developed life now established within the host? Surely, you don't need religion to hold the miracle of life in high regards? After all, morality exists without religion.

please dont try to patronise me by emphasisng sentences in the way you think i should read them. i dont believe that human life is anymore sacred than any other animal, and plenty of baby animals die before they have a chance. thats part of life. it should not be taboo or a guilty pleasure. we should be allowed to enjoy sex because it is fun, we should be allowed to do it for the purpose of having fun because that is A purpose of it - we have made it that way.

That's true. But contraception can fail though. The only guaranteed way to avoid pregnancy is to not have sex.

the only sure way to avoid drowning is to avoid all liquids. you cant choke if you dont swallow anything. you cant trip over if you dont walk. our lives are full of little risks that we might not even recognise, but we cant live without taking risks and we shouldnt NOT have fun just because sometimes it leads to bad things. life would be fairly boring if we did that.

just to confirm i have no beef with abortion. i completely agree with it, whether it be in the case of a rape victim, or just an utter slapper who cant keep her legs shut. that person has to live with the emotional consequences of taking such an action. yes it means one less life on our humble wee planet but its a dog eat dog world, and if annie wants to fuck around and have abortions thats up to her. if mike and jeanie find theyre preggers by accident and they're not ready for a child, thats fine by me. its just one less person to clutter heaven or hell or where ever it is theyre meant to go.

It is black and white, people just like to spill other paints.

thats a simple world you live in there, dorothy. one day you'll wake up to the reality of full colour. its very exciting.

 

[moogling]

A man should not have a say in whether or not a woman has to carry her baby to term. This is getting way too involved in issues that the couple should be working out themselves. We're trying to make men and women completely equal and it just doesn't work that way. The woman is the one who has to dedicate her life to the baby starting from conception to 9 months on. Not to mention the permanent emotional and physical changes her body will go through.

I doubt a newly pregnant woman in a good relationship with someone, where he wanted to support her and the baby, would want to abort anyway.

Yes a woman being able to manipulate a man into getting her pregnant and then suing him into paying child support for 18 years is unfair but let's be honest, more often than not is it the man just being a deadbeat and not wanting anything to do with the kid.

I'm against the idea on the whole.
Mainly because it would never work. I think this would only apply if the potential mother and father had separated, in which case no amount of discussion would change the mind of the women. I also think that if it became a law then it would allow rapists to talk to the women they raped about whether or not she aborts his rape baby.

This

It's the woman's body, if he wanted kids maybe he should have found a woman prepared to have them for him, just like a woman has to find a man to stick around for the family.

and this

 

[Stoic Hero]

I think that you'll find that most women will say "it's the woman's choice alone" and most men will say "the father should have a say."

Speaking from a personal perspective, if I knocked a girl up and she wanted to have an abortion, HELL YES I would want a say. I'll take care of the kid myself, whatever, just don't kill it.

 

[Squid]

The man should have a say if:
He and the future mother are married,
He and the future mother are in a loving relationship of any kind,
He plans on having any input into the child's life.

The man should not have a say if:
He is a filthy rapist.
He has no intention of being in the child's life and is a deadbeat.

The dude made the kid too, yeah the chick has to carry it about but the guy should have some say, I'm not saying that he gets to decide the final outcome, I guess that will always be up to the woman but his views and opinion should definitely be considered.

The woman is a bitch if she just aborts it without consulting the man first. (Unless ofc it is a rape baby)