Ammendment 26 Voting today

[Rapture]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just slow, but how does this even affect birth control? The bill says that the point of conception is when life starts, right? So if the woman is taking birth control, she can't very well conceive, can she? It shouldn't have any effect on birth control.

"Amendment 26 would effectively outlaw birth control, and this is why. In addition to blocking egg fertilization, most brands of the birth control pill thin the lining of the uterine wall. This thinning means that on the off-chance that an egg is fertilized, it is prevented from attaching to the uterus altogether, and the woman essentially “miscarries.”
This secondary mechanism helps to make the birth control pill 99.9 percent effective, but is also what would call its legality into question should Amendment 26 pass in November." -This is why. My long post above goes into a lot of the problems with this bill. It really isn't just a pro life thing...its encompasses a lot more.

Anyway, I'm pro-life, I believe in contraception only in marriage, and I believe that sex should only be between a married man and woman. I agree that life begins at the point of conception. I do not believe birth control should be done away with, partly because it helps with periods, and partly because I still believe a married couple should be able to have sex without fear of having another child. As far as abortion goes, I believe it should be outlawed and only particularly available in extreme cases. Very, very extreme, such as if the mother is going to die if they don't abort the baby.

I agree. They are taking this bill to a whole new extreme with the concept it seems though.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

just a few things i'd like to pick at regarding that article.

"Apparently, they thought they needed to find a place more religious and more conservative, so they headed down here,"

oh look. someone else mentioning religion.

"(They should) stop the fear-mongering and the tactics that are just talking about outrageous things that we do not believe will happen," Herring said. "This is really about saying, 'What did our forefathers intend when they used the word "person"?' I think very clearly, there is no way that long ago they had any intention of not including the unborn as a person. So in my mind, this is a historic vote, and it provides the people to have a voice in protecting life."

specifically the part about your (americans') forefathers and what they intended when they used the word "person" its ridiculous that this person even bothers to bring that up considering america's history. it has awarded itself a separate race (african-americans) because it took people as slaves. people who, until recently, were considered inferior to the whites...so is that what they intended by "person"? im sure they cared a lot for unborn white children while the unborn black children were just "inferior beasts" that they'd treat like animals. mhm aha, nice argument there herring, when's your next clan meeting?

to say that a fertilised egg is the same as a fully developed, out of the oven bun is insane. i am a person. a fertilised egg is not. i am aware. a fertilised egg is not. i can call you a cunt. a fertilised egg cannot. it has the functionality of pretty much any inanimate object you can think of.

if life begins at conception then maybe when a child is born it should be considered 9 months old (assuming it pops out on the dot) in mississippi, that wonderful state in the bible belt of the good old yoo es of ay.

it really is a shame for those americans who arent batshit insane crazy religious fanatics. they probly just want to live a normal life but they have to deal with all this tripe cause "jesus said".

 

[Stoic Hero]

I'm a Christian and I hate having to deal with batshit insane Christians. It's to the point where I want to just call myself something else. "Follower of Christ" or something. Maybe "Jesus' bro" hahaha.

And, fyi, Jesus didn't say anything about contraception and, well, any of this so all we can do is assume. And you know what happens when you assume.

 

[unadulteratedawesome]

Researcher: Abortions Cost Economy $35 Trillion Since 1970 in Lost Productivity

Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) – A researcher who has spent over a decade examining the economic impact of abortion finds that the approximately 50,5 million abortions in the U.S. since 1970 have cost the American economy $35 trillion. That comes in the form of lost productivity by having fewer workers contributing to society.

http://www.lifenews.com/2008/10/13/nat-4440/

The most amusing part about that asinine argument is that it overlooks the effect legalized abortion has on drastically lowering the crime rate. You can thank the Roe v. Wade for a large part of the precipitous drop in youth crime during the 1990s (and the long term effects of that). Not to mention the complications of an even greater populace in a country that does not have much industrial production. They conveniently ignore the other sides of the practical/fiscal arguments for/against abortion to shakily prop up their own conclusions. Don't use evidence if you aren't going to address all of it.


Also, the amendment was rejected:
Article here.

These people are raving lunatics. I don't need to explain how crazy they are when I can just post this quote:
"We will establish a culture of life," said Dr. Freda Bush, a Yes on 26 spokeswoman. "This is a cultural war from the womb to the tomb and we will be back."

Unfortunately, even if most people can agree on how insane this proposal and these people are, they still can't get it through their heads that their subjective morals infringe on individual liberty and have no place in law.

 

[Davey Gaga]

Thank God this fell through - it'd set a precedent for other areas of the world to get away with stupid ideas like this one.

We're all pretty evolved beyond using sex as a means solely of reproduction and no one, man or woman, should be persecuted for enjoying themselves. Preventing birth control is even more ridiculous - you could say abstinence is also a form of stopping life. Contraceptive pills only deal with hormones that release eggs in to the fallopian tubes at certain stages in a cycle; no lives are involved.

I get the whole "it's murder after a certain time" argument but life certainly does not begin at conception. Sperm and egg come together to make a life - sure. You could also say one haploid cell fuses with another to form a diploid cell. Yeast do the same thing but we still abuse yeast 'til we're blue in the face. I don't get why terminating a couple of cells is any different to using yeast cells in experiments.

To be honest, if you're a pro-lifer and you're not a vegan/against using other organisms for your own benefit, then you're shooting yourself in the foot. The only argument that you have is that humans are more complex organisms but then you're arrogant and undermining the value of the other organisms you seem to want to stand up for.

Bit of a waffly reply but my point is the people of Mississppi did the right thing and made an informed decision.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

Hahaha. My abortion views are pretty much an enigma when it comes outright. I can see both points of views. I am mainly Pro life as it is.

The money needs to come from somewhere... and this is not the only place. For national health care to work we all need to make some changes.

1 thing... for lower healthcare... Americans need to stop smoking... that would make a world of difference, and the tobacco companys need to make them less unhealthy (and we all know they can)... America has the most deadly smokes among most countries due to the chemicals and additives we add... that other countries don't. Furthermore if we quit buying the extremely overpriced packs of smokes perhaps we could afford more healthy items... and wouldnt need to worry about dying as easily.

The bottom line is that Americans are lazy compared to almost all countries. We invite fast food and unhealthy eating habits into our lives and live most of our freetime with entertainment. On average Americans die younger than almost any other country, while having one of the best enviorments. Self control is a problem.

So this is it people. We don't want to quit smoking, we don't want to eat healthy, we don't want to excersise... so you cannot be surprised when our government makes efforts to reduce health care costs in other ways that seem unfair.

They cannot ban cheesburgers, or force us to work out... pretty much they are struggling to offer quality healthcare to a country that is in no way attempting to earn it or make a change for it... what else can they do?

Humankind was fine without abortion or birthcontrol for almost all of our exsistance, yet we will still rant and rave about this either way... and it will just be another thing we won't change for the greater good. BECAUSE... just like cheesburgers, and television, and video games, we also like sex.

We take a lot for granted do we not? Maybe we are doomed for failure unless we change ^^

 

[Shu]

Yes, this was rejected thankfully. Though let me offer some follow up to this. This was a backwater way of trying to get some foot in the door for Abortion. While I agree Abortion would be something incredibly impossible to outlaw, due to the Federal laws, I don't see how people in their right mind could of voted yes unless they were completely ignorant to it.

Praise Jesus my left testicle. This has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, this has to do with some inbred opinion that the moment someone conceives, and the lady perhaps takes a morning after pill, then of course she is considered a murderer. That or she uses ill regard for cultivating a natural life while the baby is in her womb. Aka, the state could in prison people if they choose to do extra curricular activity that causes a miscarry with accidental regard.

People should be ashamed overall for even considering this bill viable. It's not draconian, due to you could flat out kill your child back when for acting out. I don't really understand where all this Political Correctness / Religion is coming into play. When has Abortion EVER been illegal, and when has religion EVER said anything about abortion being wrong in the first place. The definition people seem to see fit to debate is.. When is a person a person.

We all know killing in cold blood is illegal, except oddly in war. Though come on.. outlawing a form of contraception as well as invitro in order to make women second guess themselves yet again. Shame shame shame, small minded people.

 

[unadulteratedawesome]

The money needs to come from somewhere... and this is not the only place. For national health care to work we all need to make some changes.

What does this even have to do with abortion? I assume you're referencing the research linked earlier? That's all potential economic loss. It assumes that each of those aborted potential-people would go on to averagely succeed and contribute to the economy. I've mentioned this before in this thread and others, but a large contributor, perhaps the contributor, to the precipitous 90s decline in crime was because of a evaporating youth crime surge that would have occurred if the unwanted children were born into the conditions they would have had to grow up in. The research's estimation is based on average GDP, but abortions are not commonly performed by people who are mentally and fiscally prepared to raise a child. It's applying an average to a demographic that falls far beneath the average and restrains rather than contributes to economic growth.

The bottom line is that Americans are lazy compared to almost all countries.

Actually, according to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, the US is above the international average in annual work hours, and beats out the vast majority of 1st world Europe (which is under the international average) except for Greece and Italy.

Now if you're making that statement based on sweeping generalizations of the national character of Americans rather than, y'know, objective data, then that's another entirely different ignorant matter.

On average Americans die younger than almost any other country, while having one of the best enviorments. Self control is a problem.

This is flawed in multiple ways. There's multiple factors leading to overall health. We're #36 in average life expectancy while also being #37 in healthcare (or thereabouts, depending on source). So our healthcare kinda sucks. Health is also contributed to by diet, which is why many modernizing nations are having troubles with it as more modern, less-healthy food is introduced. America's traditional cultural foods are not healthy, and neither is our modern food. Compare Japan, where their traditional and modern food are both very healthy - it's a cultural thing. Another factor is violent death, and though we have rather high violent crime for a 1st world nation, we're way better off than places like Afghanistan or Somalia, and that's reflected.

So the influences on our poor national health are tied closer to cultural, legislative, and economic concerns rather than something individual and subject to sweeping, ignorant generalization, like "self control". Besides, health is a lot more than your physical weight - if that was the case, then developed Europe would be just as poor off as us.

Humankind was fine without abortion or birthcontrol for almost all of our exsistance...

Wow, wrong again. You're so wrong about this that it's hard to describe all of the ways, and I'm only human, but I'll attempt to keep it brief.

We have evidence of abortion since 1550 BCE in Egypt, and a ton of documentation and reasoning about it from classical Greece. Even Hippocrates gave medical recommendations for abortions, Aristotle placed a timetable on when it was morally acceptable to do so, and the Hippocratic oath only forbids a specific form of abortion being performed which was known to be harmful to women. Even in the medieval Islamic world, physicians helped women achieve abortions. Not to mention all of this is male-centric via documentation - historically and traditionally, one of a mid-wife's many duties was to help perform abortions. This idea of banning abortion is really only from the 19th century and onwards. It's rooted in social perception rather than logic.

Likewise, birth control dates back to 1850 BCE with various forms of spermicides. We've used abortion and birth control in various forms throughout the entirety of human history to limit the birth of unwanted children. I don't see how anyone can morally or even practically recommend the birth of children to families that are not ready for them - and before someone mentions adoption, as always, swamping adoption services and putting people through the entire intensive birthing process isn't right by any stretch of the imagination either. It's simply not your place or right to choose for someone else or judge them.

If you're referring to prehistory when we were still primitive hunter-gatherers - that's because we needed to not abort or limit births. Living conditions were harsh enough that you needed every child you could get to make it to adulthood because many of them died from practically everything. And even then there's evidence of infanticide and other forms of population control. Nowadays, that's not a concern.

tl;dr - It's hard to explain all the ways you're wrong, but I did it anyway.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

What does this even have to do with abortion?

Just another thing they cut costs on in the grand scheme of things man (guess you would have to read the whole thread.)

Actually, according to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, the US is above the international average in annual work hours, and beats out the vast majority of 1st world Europe (which is under the international average) except for Greece and Italy.

Actually work hours have nothing to do with being unhealthy and lazy and overweight. Sure maybe we work more... but what do we do AFTER work? What do we eat AFTER work? How come we are MORE overweight. How come our lifespans in general are shorter? I am not saying everyone has bad habits, just that they much more noticably surround you in America. Lazy can also go heand in hand with the large percentage of unemployment rates (which already exclude illegal immagrants because we can't track them), welfare abuse, ect ect. Hell as a matter of opinion you could even attribute many abortions to people who just don't want the responsibility of raising a child.

Now if you're making that statement based on sweeping generalizations of the national character of Americans rather than, y'know, objective data, then that's another entirely different ignorant matter.

Well I didnt see your links and objective data to prove me wrong. Sometimes I see you in these threads and I wonder if your only intention or goal is to picks fights. I mean excuse me if I am wrong but you often come off as all knowing superior being superman with your offensive debates.

This is flawed in multiple ways. There's multiple factors leading to overall health. We're #36 in average life expectancy while also being #37 in healthcare (or thereabouts, depending on source). So our healthcare kinda sucks. Health is also contributed to by diet, which is why many modernizing nations are having troubles with it as more modern, less-healthy food is introduced. America's traditional cultural foods are not healthy, and neither is our modern food. Compare Japan, where their traditional and modern food are both very healthy - it's a cultural thing. Another factor is violent death, and though we have rather high violent crime for a 1st world nation, we're way better off than places like Afghanistan or Somalia, and that's reflected.

Links and data please. Because I have found several links (retaining to JUST health, and not including your violent deaths and other variables). This one here depicts us as #22. This is just talking about health. Apparently the average lifespan is about "66" years (thats just plain shitty), and that is not including accidents or murder or w/e. The bottem line is that health care wouldnt be a such crisis issue if we also didnt have one of the largest cancer and diebeties ratios. We can point fingers and blame the government all we want but there comes a time when we should take a closer look at ourselves as well.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_hea_yea-health-life-expectancy-healthy-years

So the influences on our poor national health are tied closer to cultural, legislative, and economic concerns rather than something individual and subject to sweeping, ignorant generalization, like "self control". Besides, health is a lot more than your physical weight - if that was the case, then developed Europe would be just as poor off as us.

Yeah I disagree with that 100%. I still say put the cheeseburger down. Dont know why you keep using the words "ignorant generalization" when its pretty obvious that we are an obiese nation. After being to four other countries and comparing with my eyes... I realize this is not some generalization at all. It in your face obvious. Self control = healthier country.

Wow, wrong again. You're so wrong about this that it's hard to describe all of the ways, and I'm only human, but I'll attempt to keep it brief.

We have evidence of abortion since 1550 BCE in Egypt, and a ton of documentation and reasoning about it from classical Greece. Even Hippocrates gave medical recommendations for abortions, Aristotle placed a timetable on when it was morally acceptable to do so, and the Hippocratic oath only forbids a specific form of abortion being performed which was known to be harmful to women. Even in the medieval Islamic world, physicians helped women achieve abortions. Not to mention all of this is male-centric via documentation - historically and traditionally, one of a mid-wife's many duties was to help perform abortions. This idea of banning abortion is really only from the 19th century and onwards. It's rooted in social perception rather than logic.

Likewise, birth control dates back to 1850 BCE with various forms of spermicides. We've used abortion and birth control in various forms throughout the entirety of human history to limit the birth of unwanted children. I don't see how anyone can morally or even practically recommend the birth of children to families that are not ready for them - and before someone mentions adoption, as always, swamping adoption services and putting people through the entire intensive birthing process isn't right by any stretch of the imagination either. It's simply not your place or right to choose for someone else or judge them.

If you're referring to prehistory when we were still primitive hunter-gatherers - that's because we needed to not abort or limit births. Living conditions were harsh enough that you needed every child you could get to make it to adulthood because many of them died from practically everything. And even then there's evidence of infanticide and other forms of population control. Nowadays, that's not a concern.

tl;dr - It's hard to explain all the ways you're wrong, but I did it anyway.

I will not debate any of this because


A: You did not post any links or evidance on your debating point. (poor actions for a person who seems to take this as seriously and confidently as yourself).


And B: You sound like an ass with all of this "your wrong" your wrong" nonsense. I am more than happy to be proven wrong in a debate thread (and could care less). However there is a difference between saying "your wrong your wrong", and saying "I disagree, or actually". The difference is that one is rude and one is not. In order to be wrong you must first prove I am in the first place. So if you intend on debating the point then please provide your information.


Wether abortion has been around or not... it has NEVER EVER been as popular/abused as it is today. Im sure people back then were not fucking like mad and saying "oh its ok, I'll just get an abortion because its EASY. We have turned a "rariety" of history into a common act of throw away disgrace (imo).


Agree to disagree, because I disagree with abortion in general. So there is no point further debating the "right" of it with me. (If you intended on it)