Are battles in XIII significantly more difficult than in previous games?

[Cardinal Copia]

And the mention about being able to cast death on Orphan, you are 100% correct. You can cast death on the final boss to beat it. I used it on the 2nd form as a joke and it actually worked..... That should never happen.

 

[Ultimaja]

I never said the roles were bad. The lack of choice is what's bad, and I don't mind lack of choice in some aspects of a game, but in FFXIII every single aspect of the game is completely outside the players control.

Again - in FFVIII you have junctioning to make your characters stronger than enemies. In FFXIII you only have levels. That is the difference. In FFVIII if you want to you can be far stronger than every enemy in the game if you put in the hours buffing up your characters. In FFXIII you do not have any options like that, the game tells you how your characters are going to level up, and when they are going to level up, and levelling up is the only way for your characters to be stronger than their enemies.

And FFXIII has a paradigm system which requires strategy and makes all the difference, one in which you don't have to enhance by sitting around drawing magic hours on end.

That's really the reality of it. You make it sound like it's so exciting.
Some FF fans suffer from exaggerating memories. Pop in FFs that are allegedly so much better then XIII and they're not going to be as amazing as you remember to an extent that they make XIII look bad.

You still haven't told me what all these 'most' Final Fantasy games that give you little freedom when it comes to levelling are. Could it be because the fact is FFXIII is the first to stop you having choice when it comes to levelling?

I have spoken on this twice, and quite frankly, you continuing to twist the contexts of it is starting to piss me off. I have patience with most things, and this is not one of them.
You are the one who was vague in what you stated.

When you are powerful enough to kill something, that is your own natural cap. XIII simply guides you for a while so that you become familiar with the stats and abilities of the characters.
You don't have a choice to be twenty levels above everything for the first half of the game. How restricting.

 

[Razberry Knight]

compared to previous games where you had either the choice of what job you want to use, or controling other characters, or even customizing your equipment such as magic, FF13 had the most restrictions out of any FF game.

 

[Sheechiibii]

And FFXIII has a paradigm system which requires strategy and makes all the difference, one in which you don't have to enhance by sitting around drawing magic hours on end.

That's really the reality of it. You make it sound like it's so exciting.
Some FF fans suffer from exaggerating memories. Pop in FFs that are allegedly so much better then XIII and they're not going to be as amazing as you remember to an extent that they make XIII look bad.

I'm not and have never been talking about battle strategy. I'm talking about the game not letting you choose when and how to strengthen your team, not allowing you decisions when it comes to how strong you want to be to tackle enemies. Paradigm shifting is in battle strategy, and has nothing to do with being able to control how and when your character gets stronger. Considering I just finished replaying FFIX for something like the 6th time and it's still 1000x better than FFXIII I can tell you that my memory is not so exaggerated thanks

I have spoken on this twice, and quite frankly, you continuing to twist the contexts of it is starting to piss me off. I have patience with most things, and this is not one of them.
You are the one who was vague in what you stated.

When you are powerful enough to kill something, that is your own natural cap. XIII simply guides you for a while so that you become familiar with the stats and abilities of the characters.
You don't have a choice to be twenty levels above everything for the first half of the game. How restricting.

I have twisted no context. These were your exact words "most FFs don't really give you much freedom in leveling up either."

most FFs don't really give you much freedom in leveling up either.

- as of yet you have given one example, FFVIII, which is utter nonsense considering in FFVIII you can make your characters stronger than the final boss without ever leaving the very first area you start the game in, not to mention that there is no restriction on your characters levels at all at any point in the game.

If you're getting 'pissed off' at me questioning your statement, then maybe you shouldn't have made a statement you couldn't back up in the first place.

Also, the cap is there for the entire game. It's actually there until you beat the final boss. So it's not 'the first half of the game'.

 

[Jdeadevil]

So many people in this thread have said things that I agree with. But mainly Sheechiibii's arguments about the freedom of previous game's leveling systems. It's hilarious to know that it is technically possible to grind in the first area until you're superior than the final boss. Not everyone will do that, but it does prove how open the game was, and most of the other games for that matter because they have similar systems.

Does anyone remember that post I made when I said XIII wasn't a complete disaster? Well I played it again, and yes it is a complete disaster. I'm playing through the game for a second time because I got really bored a few weeks ago. I'm at that bit where your party is just Sazh and Vanille and you're at that dump, and the only two enemies you fight are bombs and pulse fal'cie workers. I hate that you have to stagger the fal'cie worker before you attack it with a COM, I hate that they intentionally put them with bombs because they know that 80% of the time they'll explode because the fal'cie workers will stun you and not give you a chance to stop it happening. I hate that you have to spend about a minute casting buffs on Sazh and Vanille, and spend 30% of the fight paradigm shifting to RAV/MED. I hate the stupid long animation they do when they paradigm shift for the first time in battle. I hate the long ATB charge with multiple segments, that force you to do a load of auto-actions where you have to keep cancelling it otherwise.

It frustrates me guys.

 

[Ultimaja]

If you're getting 'pissed off' at me questioning your statement, then maybe you shouldn't have made a statement you couldn't back up in the first place.

The reason I'm pissed off was told in a post that was promptly deleted for reasons I'm sure you can figure out.

Because you have been asking me over and over again to prove something that I thought you said, which I even made clear in a previous post that you obviously have chosen to ignore and keep beating a straw man on my statements.

I don't have much patience for that, I dually noted that to, and that leads me to believe that you are being purposefully aggravating and therefore am not continuing anymore discussion with you on this thread.

 

[C i d]

Let's be peaceful shall we . Otherwise I will have to take further actions.

Please do not reply to this post. PM me if you have any questions or concerns. Any more off topic posts will be deleted.

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

The game is easy. You just press X and L1. It's also easy to figure out which paradigms work and which ones don't.

 

[Sheechiibii]

The reason I'm pissed off was told in a post that was promptly deleted for reasons I'm sure you can figure out.

Because you have been asking me over and over again to prove something that I thought you said, which I even made clear in a previous post that you obviously have chosen to ignore and keep beating a straw man on my statements.

I don't have much patience for that, I dually noted that to, and that leads me to believe that you are being purposefully aggravating and therefore am not continuing anymore discussion with you on this thread.

Well I'm sorry you got upset with me, I didn't intend to offend you. I haven't been asking you to prove that other Final Fantasies have caps, only to give examples of what you stated, which was that 'most' other Final Fantasies have a lack of feedom when it comes to levelling comparable to XIII. I have not been attacking you, straw man or otherwise, I have been asking you to elaborate on your statement. Sorry if that wasn't clear, I thought it was.

 

[Ultimaja]

Well I'm sorry you got upset with me, I didn't intend to offend you. I haven't been asking you to prove that other Final Fantasies have caps, only to give examples of what you stated, which was that 'most' other Final Fantasies have a lack of feedom when it comes to levelling comparable to XIII. I have not been attacking you, straw man or otherwise, I have been asking you to elaborate on your statement. Sorry if that wasn't clear, I thought it was.

I didn't think about 'capping'. I thought you were saying how the characters leveled, not how much they can level.
After all, you did say it in a way that one could think otherwise. And yet you have continued to act as if I've been perpetuating the straw man that you have produced.

And I went with that conclusion because, honestly, I've seen many alleged criticisms with XIII that are basically just nonsensical. So it isn't surprising to me that anyone would make such an argument.
XIII is unreasonably demonized; I like to think I have a good opinion because I've played every FF and in general am an avid gamer particularly along the lines of rpgs in general. I have a refined sense of judgement when it comes to them, and it's honestly just annoying to have that be treated as null and void when it comes to the subject of XIII.

I've played through XIII, and it is not a bad game. Where some complain that the battling and maps are repetitive, I thought that they both rocked. The game is about inching through a grand quest, no shortcuts or punching holes which includes over-leveling (in fact, the OST of the boss music is titled 'desperate struggle'- this is what the makers had in mind).
I see a game that is intended to make the gamer experience the actual exhaustion of the characters.
I'm sorry that so many FF fans don't see the inspiring aspects of XIII.

 

[Sheechiibii]

I didn't think about 'capping'. I thought you were saying how the characters leveled, not how much they can level.
After all, you did say it in a way that one could think otherwise. And yet you have continued to act as if I've been perpetuating the straw man that you have produced.

And I went with that conclusion because, honestly, I've seen many alleged criticisms with XIII that are basically just nonsensical. So it isn't surprising to me that anyone would make such an argument.
XIII is unreasonably demonized; I like to think I have a good opinion because I've played every FF and in general am an avid gamer particularly along the lines of rpgs in general. I have a refined sense of judgement when it comes to them, and it's honestly just annoying to have that be treated as null and void when it comes to the subject of XIII.

I've played through XIII, and it is not a bad game. Where some complain that the battling and maps are repetitive, I thought that they both rocked. The game is about inching through a grand quest, no shortcuts or punching holes which includes over-leveling (in fact, the OST of the boss music is titled 'desperate struggle'- this is what the makers had in mind).
I see a game that is intended to make the gamer experience the actual exhaustion of the characters.
I'm sorry that so many FF fans don't see the inspiring aspects of XIII.

Well there's clearly been a misunderstanding. I did mention how they levelled as well as when they could level in my first reply to you though. It was never just about how but when as well.

It's good that you enjoyed XIII, I wish I had. I completed it the first time I played it and I even tried playing it again to give it another chance. Sadly there's nothing at all in the game that I enjoyed, not one single aspect of the story, characters or game play. Hurray for personal preferences, but I don't think any preferences, good or bad, can be said to be fair or unfair. The restrictions in how and when you can level your characters is only one small part of everything I didn't like about the game. I wouldn't have cared about the cap if it had been high enough that I'd never reached it, then it wouldn't have bothered me. I did reach it, and I wasn't even trying to be overpowered. I was struggling with a boss fight on my second play though, can't remember which one, and I trained for a while and hit the cap and that was when I just gave up on ever liking the game.

 

[Ultimaja]

Well there's clearly been a misunderstanding. I did mention how they levelled as well as when they could level in my first reply to you though. It was never just about how but when as well.

I had also made mention of Elder Scrolls, where leveling is definitively how you want it, down to stats and perks etc.; I pretty much presumed that is what you were implying in leveling. I was also taking into account ability points and how they effected magic, equipment, and abilities.

I got pissed off because it seemed as though you were sort of playing at me on something I technically might have said without recognizance of the misunderstanding. I'm willing to just drop it; I made a post that wasn't very nice which the mods took down and hemmed me up with because of this now perceived misunderstanding, and really just don't want much to do with it now.

We can just just call it even

It's good that you enjoyed XIII, I wish I had. I completed it the first time I played it and I even tried playing it again to give it another chance. Sadly there's nothing at all in the game that I enjoyed, not one single aspect of the story, characters or game play. Hurray for personal preferences, but I don't think any preferences, good or bad, can be said to be fair or unfair. The restrictions in how and when you can level your characters is only one small part of everything I didn't like about the game. I wouldn't have cared about the cap if it had been high enough that I'd never reached it, then it wouldn't have bothered me. I did reach it, and I wasn't even trying to be overpowered. I was struggling with a boss fight on my second play though, can't remember which one, and I trained for a while and hit the cap and that was when I just gave up on ever liking the game.

I hit the cap a number of times, and I was a little bit peeved, I'll admit.
What drove me to forgive that is pretty much because I had faith that Square Enix wasn't about to just leave me high and dry on the satisfaction of customizing and powering my team how I wanted, and that faith was well placed once you get halfway through and start doing side missions.
Sure, there's a cap there to but that evidently was to ensure that you got along with the rest of the story before you got too carried away with anything else.

And that is something that all FF's have- it's difficult in any FF to complete major side quests until you have finished with the bulk of the game. SE wanted to stay true to that.

 

[Sheechiibii]

I had also made mention of Elder Scrolls, where leveling is definitively how you want it, down to stats and perks etc.; I pretty much presumed that is what you were implying in leveling. I was also taking into account ability points and how they effected magic, equipment, and abilities.

I got pissed off because it seemed as though you were sort of playing at me on something I technically might have said without recognizance of the misunderstanding. I'm willing to just drop it; I made a post that wasn't very nice which the mods took down and hemmed me up with because of this now perceived misunderstanding, and really just don't want much to do with it now.

We can just just call it even



I hit the cap a number of times, and I was a little bit peeved, I'll admit.
What drove me to forgive that is pretty much because I had faith that Square Enix wasn't about to just leave me high and dry on the satisfaction of customizing and powering my team how I wanted, and that faith was well placed once you get halfway through and start doing side missions.
Sure, there's a cap there to but that evidently was to ensure that you got along with the rest of the story before you got too carried away with anything else.

And that is something that all FF's have- it's difficult in any FF to complete major side quests until you have finished with the bulk of the game. SE wanted to stay true to that.

Yes we'll just call it even I think sometimes on forums it can be easy to make misunderstandings when everything's written down so impersonally.

I would have been willing to forgive certain things in XIII if there'd been other aspects that made up for it, but for me that just didn't happen. Like in XII, I was willing to forgive my disappointment with the characters development and story because I loved so much else about it. Sadly in XIII there isn't anything for me to like, let alone love, so I have no reason to forgive certain things.

I do feel that XIII let the player down when it came to customize and powering the team how you want. Every character is set up for certain roles and changing those roles is pretty much impossible. By the time you even get the option for all the roles for every character it would take an awful lot of work to switch them up and build them into a different type of character. I wouldn't find that so bad, if you had options within those roles, but you don't, you have only one path you can take, only one set of abilities you can learn.

Even when it came to weapons, without following a guide there was no way to know that a really crappy weapon could turn into a total powerhouse, by the point you got more weapons, you'd be better to just stick with what you had, because managing to build up all the weapons to see which ends up the best would be incredibly time consuming and nearly impossible.

My issue with the cap being present for the entire game is that it means you cannot complete the game before the final boss. I don't believe they did it to stay true to Final Fantasy, in that respect leaving the sidequests until you reached chapter 11-13 was enough. Capping you until you've completed the game was their way of forcing you to use post-game play, something no other Final Fantasy has done. Again, it's not something I would have disliked the game for if the game had redeeming qualities to it, but for me it's just a huge list of things I dislike.

 

[King Sean]

I didn't feel like they were until you were given free reign in the later part of the game. It's like the game rips off your training wheels and says "Okay, time to die beyotch."

I just used all the new terrain and monsters to grind and it went back to being as difficult as I thought normal. Just make sure to battle as much as you think is needed and don't give up when some monsters kill you cheaply.

 

[tiornys]

Also btw, in XIII the strength of your characters is based on only two things: your level and your equipment. In FFVIII (where enemies level up with you) your strength is determined by your level, your equipment and also your junctions. So you can still make your characters stronger than the enemies if you want to grind. In XIII you can't. You have no choice at all.

It's interesting that you mention equipment here, and yet no one has mentioned the fact that you can, in fact, increase your strength well beyond the Crystarium cap by leveling up your equipment (and you have plenty of choices on how to go about doing that).

I also don't think that removing the crystarium caps would make the game better. I actually think it would make things worse. Crystarium costs scale rapidly compared to the CP given by the enemies in any given area; if the caps didn't exist, it would take hours to make any significant progress into the stages beyond the current caps. This would in turn cause people to complain about the amount of grinding the game was "forcing" them to do, never understanding that the problems were not in their stats/level, but rather in the outmoded strategies they were clinging to (I mean, you already see this in chapters 11-13).

Incidentally, are you aware that all other enemies can be defeated prior to defeating the final bosses and unlocking the last stage of the Crystarium? The only thing you have to play postgame for is to fill out that final stage if you care about the trophy.

Does anyone remember that post I made when I said XIII wasn't a complete disaster? Well I played it again, and yes it is a complete disaster. I'm playing through the game for a second time because I got really bored a few weeks ago. I'm at that bit where your party is just Sazh and Vanille and you're at that dump, and the only two enemies you fight are bombs and pulse fal'cie workers. I hate that you have to stagger the fal'cie worker before you attack it with a COM, I hate that they intentionally put them with bombs because they know that 80% of the time they'll explode because the fal'cie workers will stun you and not give you a chance to stop it happening. I hate that you have to spend about a minute casting buffs on Sazh and Vanille, and spend 30% of the fight paradigm shifting to RAV/MED. I hate the stupid long animation they do when they paradigm shift for the first time in battle. I hate the long ATB charge with multiple segments, that force you to do a load of auto-actions where you have to keep cancelling it otherwise.

It frustrates me guys.

I hear you on the long paradigm shift--that thing is annoying. I don't agree regarding multiple ATB segments; I understand where you're coming from but I like the efficiency you get from chaining multiple abilities together. All the rest of your complaints are factually untrue. You do not have to stagger the Pulsework Soldiers. Bombs will not be exploding anywhere near 80% of the time if you're using aggressive strategies against them. If you're spending a minute on buffs, you're spending about 60 seconds longer on buffing than most fights in that section call for--and you certainly shouldn't be casting buffs when there are Bombs on the battlefield. RAV/MED is a questionable paradigm that doesn't deserve a spot in your deck.

Are you using Vanille's debuffs at all? COM/SAB into COM/RAV will easily destroy a single Bomb even if you get disrupted by a Solider.

That section of the game was my least favorite on my first playthrough when I didn't understand combat very well. From my second playthrough on--i.e., since I figured out that buffs are great and debuffs are amazing--I've greatly enjoyed all of the Sazh/Vanille sections.

 

[Ultimaja]

Equipment in VIII and X were a joke.

Why aren't you hating on them as well?
Mind false criticism.

 

[Sheechiibii]

Equipment in VIII and X were a joke.

Why aren't you hating on them as well?
Mind false criticism.

It's not false criticism just because other games have been bad in that department as well. Like I said, if the game had redeemable qualities I'd be happy to forgive some of the things I didn't like. Sadly the game has no redeeming qualities for me, and everything in it is something I don't like. I'm willing to forgive things like the weapons in FFVIII because I loved so much else about the game play and story, I'm willing to forgive the storyline in XII because I loved so much about the world and the game play. There is no reason for me to forgive anything in FFXIII because I found it all terrible.

@tiornys: I'd rather have the freedom to choose. It's as simple as that. The restriction killed the fun for me and just made the game frustrating. The Crystarium was only one part of the complete restriction this game forced onto the players. The weapons system was just as restricted, yes you could level up your weapons but at what length of time and for what point considering you have no idea which weapons are the best and which are the worst once they are levelled. You'd need to level them all up to even know what's best. Or do what most people did and stick with the very first one you got.

 

[tiornys]

You could definitely get an idea of where the upgrades were going by seeing how much stat gain you got on each level. I wouldn't take much observation to figure out that stat gains are linear per level for all weapons and accessories. I agree the upgrade system would have greatly benefited from more transparency, but it's not true that you had to fully level everything to get an idea of which weapons were better.

 

[Razberry Knight]

as much as i hate this game, i agree on tyornis that you didn't really need to know what equipment was best. also this is a hassle with other games aswell. Still the bigger gripes on the game is poor presentation. battles when you start off and when you get advanced look exactly the same. sure different moves, but the progress doesn't seem to look all that different.

 

[Sheechiibii]

as much as i hate this game, i agree on tyornis that you didn't really need to know what equipment was best. also this is a hassle with other games aswell. Still the bigger gripes on the game is poor presentation. battles when you start off and when you get advanced look exactly the same. sure different moves, but the progress doesn't seem to look all that different.

As I've said, it's not that it was a huge deal, it's just that it was one more thing on the never-ending list of things I disliked about the game. I wouldn't gripe about it if there was anything redeeming in the game, but sadly for me there was not. The weapons system annoyed me like pretty much everything else did.