Cid, Vayne and Venat

[ubergoat]

Now we are getting somewhere.

You didn't counter my argument yet

Is it really bad of Vayne to hasten the conflict? Archadia has much to gain if it can eliminate its major rival in the region, Rozaria. Vayne made sure Archadia entered the war with a distinct advantage, the Bahamut. But because of the death of Vayne and the destruction of the Bahamut at the hands of the party, the war was cut short before it was ever able to begin. Vayne took a risk in going to war with Rozaria,, a risk that could have either payed huge dividends or could have been a disastrous, but those are risks that are taken when waging war.

Missed my point again, if he slowed down the process of war there are more chances for war to be stopped. For example if it took an extra hundred years for Archadia and Rozaria to go to war then in those hundred years Archadia and/or Rozaria could develop a more peaceful attitude and maybe never go to war, one of them could collapse as all empires do and that would result in the war not happening, maybe Rozaria becomes a Monarchy and then further down the road one of the royal family marries one of the Archadian royal family and thus joins the empires peacefully. My point is you never know if the war can be averted so the longer you can last without going to war the more chance there is of it never happening. By forcing the process to go faster Vayne reduces and eventually eliminates that chance.

I still do not count a few comments made by a few soldiers as proof that the Dalmascans were treated like dirt, considering the fact all the other soldier and imperial npcs in Dalmasca will act civilly to the party, one, if you remember, even hires the party to kill a dangerous Wyvern which he fears may endanger the citizens of Dalmasca.

I'll just restate, the Dalmascans were living in the sewers long before the imminent threat of war with Rozaria began. That is dirt, if you go look at the people working at Nabudis that isn't exactly good working conditions. When I talk about soldiers treating Dalmascans badly it isn't just one or two, its pretty much all of them. The only one I can think of that doesnt treat them badly or imply something negative towards the Dalmascans is that one that posted the bill for the Wyvern. Even the one that you end up helping in the Nabreus Medal quest treats you like crap.

As we are talking about Vayne, Cid, and Venat I must remind you that none of them were responsible for the death of the King. It was the Basch’s brother, working for the Empire but not Vayne or Cid, who assassinated the king. Vayne took over Dalmasca some time after the war, so attributing transgressions made by the empire alone to Vayne is illogical.

Sorry I think you must have missed something, if you go back and watch that scene again Reks does catch a snatch of Vayne talking to the subdued Basch, if it was not him who was it that ordered Gabranth to do what he did? Other than Vayne, Larsa commanded him and would definetly not order something like that. Leaving only Vayne, I don't think I need to say any more on this point.

Dalmasca was on its way to becoming a Archadian territory, much like land that Basch was from, Landis, which was conquered when Basch was young. The Republic of Landis had come to the point in which its citizens were full-fledged Archadians, to the point in which citizens of Landis could become Judges (Gabranth).

So because it is common-place that makes it right? The romans persecuting christians at the start of the religion was common-place but I don't think that was right. Now you say that Dalmascan's have as much of a chance of becoming a judge as any other Archadian. Well I ask you then, how much of a chance does a Bangaa? If you'll notice there arent many non-humes around in the rest of Archadia (except for some moogles but even about half of those were being sold as slaves) the reason being racism at the time was very common. I'll update this post later on with quotes on that if you want, I just can't do that now with the Calgary Flames game on (we're going to win btw).

A conquered territory loses its sovereignty to those who conquered them The Empire wanted the power over Dalmasca rather that it going to some local monarch, so of course Ashe would only be a puppet ruler. The offer was not meant to give back any major powers back to Ashe, it was just an ultimatum: "Either join us or be destroyed", it was only aimed at ending a conflict before more lives had to be wasted (resistence are rarely successful).

I don't see how this proves that anyone on the Archadian side was doing anything good or noble.

I think you misunderstand who was succeeding and who was failing throughout most of Final Fantasy XII, it was Archadia. The Resistance’s first attempt to retake Dalmasca was a complete failure, their forces were defeated and they had to make rout through the sewers and their leader, Ashe, along with her allies, were captured. For the rest of the game, up until the last hour of the game, the resistance leaders are on the run while the resistance itself is trying to rebuild its forces.
Archadia, on the other hand has Dalmasca under its thumb, and aside from the Resistance’s early debacle, Dalmasca remains quiet. Even during the final battle the resistance is almost completely wiped out by the Bahamut. Seeing that the invasion was a success, the occupation was going smoothly (until Larsa decides to make peace), and that Dalmasca was a strategic staging point in the war in with Rozaria, the only blunder Archadia made was leaving the resistance around as long as it did.

Resistances never have a good starting, they take time to build up and gather their forces, the few years that have passed is not enough time to gauge truly how successful they were going to turn out. Without the aid of the Bahamut at the end it would not have been as one sided as it turned out to be. Given a few more years even if Ashe was still captured and killed or whatever the resistance would have continued getting stronger until the bad treatment stopped or they got what they wanted.

Tiny nations like Dalmasca will always be at the mercy (and appetite) of big Empires like Archadia and Rozaria. An Empire can never stop growing, it must constantly consume smaller nations to sustain itself in order to avoid being consumed by other Empires. In war more weapons and methods to kill people will always be developed, and their will ultimately be great losses of life. But those who refuse to develop fall to those who do.

You are talking about the way the world at the time works, but again just because that is the current trend does not make it right by any means. Wrong is wrong is wrong regardless of what has happened before.

An organization is responsible for the behavior of its members, maybe not each and every grunt, but at least its major leaders. If the Resistance cannot control Reddas, then the are no better than the Empire in regard to Judge Bergen (he attacked mt Bur Omscienc).

And so even if the resistance is responsible for what Reddas did, that does not stop what Vayne and co. are doing. Right now we are talking about Vayne, wether the resistance, Reddas or anyone else on that side of the conflict is also a villain or not doesn't affect the discussion we are having right now.

 

[ubergoat]

Another angle on Vayne that hasn't been covered yet is his murder of his brothers. Now I gather that there was some reason for them to die (similar to why Vayne was ordered to die by the senate I believe). But I could argue again that Vayne doing that instead of exiling them or throwing them out of the royal family (some more peaceful alternative) makes him more evil. On its own the act doesnt make a person evil but I guess it does add to the other stuff he has done. What say you all?