Defending XIII, not hating any other titles

[ZetinSunn]

I used to have this argument with my flatmate all the time. He was of the more traditional 'VII is the ultimate human endevour and everything else falls foul of this' line of thinking which is quite common. Obviously he hated XIII (though loved the music) but at least played it to the end.

Personally, XIII wasn't awful. It wasn't as good as most of the other FF titles I've played and in a lot of ways its hard to compare them. I didn't like FF8 but I couldn't rank it compared to XIII as they are far too different. Most of the characters in the game I liked. Sazh to me is one of the best written characters in a game in a very long time. and the scenes of him in the fun fair (especially when it gets dark, I don't think suicide is a theme thats been looked at in any other FF title, and people say it isn't dark) and he does seem to play the reluctant hero. Lightning also is a well written character, as is hope. Personally I hated Snow purely because he was a very boring character type that could have been in any game by any company. Vanille just annoyed me and alot of the other characters were fairly forgettable, and the whole of Snow's wierd little teenage gang who seemed perfectly calm and composed all the time, despite essentially being pampered rich kids who lived on a beach resort facing a government sponsored civilian genocide, were unbelievable and also annoying.

XIII also had a host of very good set-pieces. The whole Palum Polum stage was excellently paced and brought everything together nicely. I thought the final boss on the roof of Hope's fathers house, and the build up to it were especially good. Also, The attack on Eden, the arrival on Pulse, the initial attack on the Hanging Edge and the Fal'cie there. Admittedly alot of the game was forgettable as it did quickly simply become a corridor, but at the same time there were certainly some very good highlights that compare with moments in other FF titles.

Story for me was business as usual for Square Enix. Interesting character relationships (Snow and Hope, Lightning and Hope, Vanille and Sahz), a beautifully imagined setting, and being based around a strong central theme of Fate with plenty of twists and turns and very few moments when you would be wondering what/where you were going and why. For me, the story was its strongest point. All backed up by good music.

For me the weakest part of it was there was no build up at the start, would have been nice to play as lightning in Bodhum before everything kicked off. The flash backs could have been used just as cutscenes in the game as they didn't add a great deal, and it would have introduced lightning snow and Serah more effectively, Serah especially, as when she's turned into a crystal, you don't really care. Also for me the battle system and levelling system seemed to have been intended to be more complex and strategic, but for whatever reason were just streamlined until they were both essentially bashing the same button, both could have been improved if the crystalarium was more akin to the sphere grid or another more open system and the battle system was turn based. The same applies for equipment, rather than an item/upgrade just boosting your basic damage/defense stats (I know some did more interesting things but they were essentially useless) perhaps have the equipment make no difference to the damage you can take or deal, but instead base it around the FFX system where some will increase damage by 3% and through the upgrades to 5% and 10%, others will deal elemental damage, increase the rate something staggers, increase XP, or give you protection from status ailments.

In conclusion then, The game had a solid story, great music, some very good characters and excellent set-pieces, however many of the actual nitty-gritty game play elements got in the way for me, the battle system, the linear progression, both through the world (Just 1 or 2 Towns would have done, perhaps a sympathetic village that gets attacked by PSICOM), through weapon upgrades, and through character upgrades. For me these could have been better, but in all in enjoyed the game, have no issues with the 40 quid I spent for it and got 65 hours of enjoyment out of it.

 

[L]

the soundtrack doesn't suck, considering the loss of nobuo uematsu

that is the only bone this game will get from me, and then i will downplay it by saying it's sequel's soundtrack was actually very good, better than this one's

I also kind of want to bash this game, because I hate it, and everyone else is doing it. I like to think that i am better than that

but sometimes I wonder

I do think that it is just ignorant to say that the game has not seen a lot of core value changes compared to a traditional Final Fantasy title though, and leave it at that.

 

[Razberry Knight]

the soundtrack doesn't suck, considering the loss of nobuo uematsu

that is the only bone this game will get from me, and then i will downplay it by saying it's sequel's soundtrack was actually very good, better than this one's

I also kind of want to bash this game, because I hate it, and everyone else is doing it. I like to think that i am better than that

but sometimes I wonder

I do think that it is just ignorant to say that the game has not seen a lot of core value changes compared to a traditional Final Fantasy title though, and leave it at that.

Thats like saying change is good no matter how bad the choice was. The old core values were good... so why take those away and claim it to be "change"

 

[Cardinal Copia]

This game to me is is like a bad dream that you want to pretend never happened. I want to try and find redeeming qualities in it but I can't seem to find any outside of the music. The characters were either boring or quite frankly unbearable as a whole, with the only exceptions being Fang and Sazh. The game was linear with no NPC's, no airship, tha battle system was so noob friendly its ridiculous because virtually all you have to do for 99% of your fights is spam Auto Battle, the crystarium was linear like the game, no exploration of the world you're in, the main villain just seemed......dull and a joke really. Replay value? Non existent. Oh and when the world suddenly "opens up" you have a few paths you can walk down.... WOW talk about a ton of exploration!!!
It's sad that the company that made gems and masterpieces back in the day is now force feeding us XIII, XIII-2, and if you didn't get enough of her already here's some more Lightning in LR!!!! And she gets costumes of both Yuna and Cloud..... Talk about a slap in the face to them 2 characters.

 

[~Ivalice]

I'm a guy that likes some variety, and I believe final fantasy should continue to change up their games. In the end it all comes down to opinions and tastes though. The next few ff games to come will most likely please newer, younger fans to the series then the older. It'd just the way its going to be because square Enix needs to make more money and attract more fans.
Getting back to Xlll, since im more of the younger, newer gamer, I enjoyed the game for the most part. The story was blah to me, but I found it fun at least. I like lightning, fang, and sazh as characters. If people don't like a game, they simply shouldn't play it. Sell it or give it as a gift. But seriously HATE is a strong word for a game that is different...sure it could have been WAY better, but it was not terrible. I gave it 7/10

 

[Zeroxys]

SO much hate for XIII, im still gonna say its a great game. along with XIII-2 and LR is gonna be sweet as well. Like it or not SE will continue to do what they want, you can either choose to adapt & like it, or just sit there and bash on it. Reguardless i dont think SE cares too much about it, theyre gonna do what they want.

 

[Robbiedbee]

I think FFXIII is a good game in general, but a very poor Final Fantasy game.

My biggest issues are with the battle system and Crystarium.

One of the biggest drawing points of the series for me is the system by which my characters develop and grow; some games are better than others. I love how simple or complex you can make Materia, and how its "lore" slots in neatly with the saving the planet storyline. I love how Junctioning has roots all over the game, from cards, refining, drawing. I love the job system in FFV, and how the endless possibilities make each gaming run unique. I feel the Crystarium, although a fairly good concept initially, is a massive hindrance on the overall gaming experience. I haven't played XIII for over 2 years now, so I forget the specifics, but if memory serves, the Crystarium doesn't open up fully and allow you to stretch your legs until well over halfway through the game. As a result, to me, the first half of the game plays like one long tutorial.

Then, most halfway difficult battles follow the routine of buff, debuff, attack. I understand a lot of the Final Fantasy series can become am exercise in button mashing, but in my opinion that only happens when you're over prepared and over levelled. I really didn't like the idea of staggering either, it made a lot of the battles feel like they followed the same trend over and over. Also, I really didn't like how your party were healed after each battle. I have always liked the ideas of forward planning, resource management, and tactical item use for longer dungeons for Final Fantasy games not so long ago. I made a thread on this, which resurfaced quite recently.

Then again, I must give credit where credit is due. The game is beautiful, and I mean, absolutely stunning. I think I like the characters a lot more than those of FFXII; some of them are a little too much like RPG stereotypes, but again, a lot of Final Fantasy games can be guilty of that. I also think there are a couple of elements of XIII which give it the "Final Fantasy feel". It's very hard to explain, and I'm sure others would disagree, but I think FFXII felt so far from the original concepts which characterized the series, and I think FFXIII has made a small babystep back to what gives the series its identity.

 

[Razberry Knight]

I think FFXIII is a good game in general, but a very poor Final Fantasy game.

My biggest issues are with the battle system and Crystarium.

One of the biggest drawing points of the series for me is the system by which my characters develop and grow; some games are better than others. I love how simple or complex you can make Materia, and how its "lore" slots in neatly with the saving the planet storyline. I love how Junctioning has roots all over the game, from cards, refining, drawing. I love the job system in FFV, and how the endless possibilities make each gaming run unique. I feel the Crystarium, although a fairly good concept initially, is a massive hindrance on the overall gaming experience. I haven't played XIII for over 2 years now, so I forget the specifics, but if memory serves, the Crystarium doesn't open up fully and allow you to stretch your legs until well over halfway through the game. As a result, to me, the first half of the game plays like one long tutorial.

Then, most halfway difficult battles follow the routine of buff, debuff, attack. I understand a lot of the Final Fantasy series can become am exercise in button mashing, but in my opinion that only happens when you're over prepared and over levelled. I really didn't like the idea of staggering either, it made a lot of the battles feel like they followed the same trend over and over. Also, I really didn't like how your party were healed after each battle. I have always liked the ideas of forward planning, resource management, and tactical item use for longer dungeons for Final Fantasy games not so long ago. I made a thread on this, which resurfaced quite recently.

Then again, I must give credit where credit is due. The game is beautiful, and I mean, absolutely stunning. I think I like the characters a lot more than those of FFXII; some of them are a little too much like RPG stereotypes, but again, a lot of Final Fantasy games can be guilty of that. I also think there are a couple of elements of XIII which give it the "Final Fantasy feel". It's very hard to explain, and I'm sure others would disagree, but I think FFXII felt so far from the original concepts which characterized the series, and I think FFXIII has made a small babystep back to what gives the series its identity.

I think FFXII tried to do alot story-wise differently. gameplay wasn't that bad, it just had alot of "options" that weren't welcomed. It still offered turn-base type gameplay. it's story and characters were just not what one would expect.

however, XIII, doesn't give much option. you either love what it offers, or you don't. that's the difficulty with XIII, no option to find enjoyment in other areas.

SO much hate for XIII, im still gonna say its a great game. along with XIII-2 and LR is gonna be sweet as well. Like it or not SE will continue to do what they want, you can either choose to adapt & like it, or just sit there and bash on it. Reguardless i dont think SE cares too much about it, theyre gonna do what they want.

Well, the majority disagrees. Story-wise is the bigger issue AFTER XIII. although XIII had major gaping wholes in the story department, it was the lack of features.

And mentioning what SE wants to do, isn't really a strong opinion as a fan. it's more like "their here, get used to it" sort of speech,

But fans don't have to adapt (in this case, lower our standards). SE is already making FFXIV, and FFXV. two games that blow XIII series out of the park. true innovation within the FF series that we can easily welcome. action-RPGs have been around, so why shouldn't a main FF game have action-based gaming?

I'm a guy that likes some variety, and I believe final fantasy should continue to change up their games. In the end it all comes down to opinions and tastes though. The next few ff games to come will most likely please newer, younger fans to the series then the older. It'd just the way its going to be because square Enix needs to make more money and attract more fans.
Getting back to Xlll, since im more of the younger, newer gamer, I enjoyed the game for the most part. The story was blah to me, but I found it fun at least. I like lightning, fang, and sazh as characters. If people don't like a game, they simply shouldn't play it. Sell it or give it as a gift. But seriously HATE is a strong word for a game that is different...sure it could have been WAY better, but it was not terrible. I gave it 7/10

That's the thing about FF13. it didn't really try to sell toward the next generation of FF fans, or the next generation of gamers. it tried to attract those who barely started off playing games in general. and being new, first impressions usually stick no matter how bad you really see it. (sort of like the live-action super mario bros. movie where every kid liked it, but then years later hated it.). So, you may enjoy more intricate styled games, with more freedom, and greater plot and greater replayability, but still have that warm spot for XIII regardless if it doesn't meet your standards.


HATE is a strong word. and thats why many FF fans have used it against FF13 more than any other FF game. granted, some are overly nuetral and choose ff1 or ff2 and ignoring the fact that those were the ones that started the series and shouldn't be blamed for poor graphics/simple story (ff2) or trying out new (yet failed) ideas (ff2)

 

[Cardinal Copia]

FF XIII looked beautiful but was boring as absolute piss. Garbage story, characters, the combat was basically centered around spamming Auto Battle the whole time, no villain to really even develop a hate for. Which is a very big strike for me.
Wow a game in 2010 had beautiful graphics!!! If that is the only thing you have going for you then you failed. The background doesn't have to be the most breath taking thing you've ever seen in HD. All it has to do is get a point across and have you engaged.
It blows my mind when people are new to the series and call XIII the best game ever, yet won't touch the classics because they're not "up to snuff" graphically. Please. Graphics are the worst reason to love a game. You can't even call yourself a gamer much less call yourself a loving fan of the FF series if all you care about are graphics and how it looks. You want something beautiful? Go look at paintings.
XIII plainly put, is awful.

 

[tiornys]

the combat was basically centered around spamming Auto Battle the whole time,

If this is the impression you formed, I understand why you were bored, but nevertheless I can't agree with this assertion. FFXIII's combat is centered around the idea of changing into the right roles to handle shifting battle conditions. Auto-battle is a convenience intended for those who wanted to focus on strategic control without the added complexity of tactical control. Experienced gamers should be able to take manual control of their lead character for positive gain.

FFXIII has some of the best combat in the series (and I've been playing FF games since the original NES release). It's a shame you didn't develop enough skill to potentially appreciate it. It might not have compensated for the lack of exploration or overcome your dislike of the story and characters, but at least you could have avoided the grindy boredom that accompanies the easiest-to-use strategies of most any RPG's combat.

 

[Cardinal Copia]

If this is the impression you formed, I understand why you were bored, but nevertheless I can't agree with this assertion. FFXIII's combat is centered around the idea of changing into the right roles to handle shifting battle conditions. Auto-battle is a convenience intended for those who wanted to focus on strategic control without the added complexity of tactical control. Experienced gamers should be able to take manual control of their lead character for positive gain.

FFXIII has some of the best combat in the series (and I've been playing FF games since the original NES release). It's a shame you didn't develop enough skill to potentially appreciate it. It might not have compensated for the lack of exploration or overcome your dislike of the story and characters, but at least you could have avoided the grindy boredom that accompanies the easiest-to-use strategies of most any RPG's combat.

No I'll tell you what the real shame is. You assuming I'm a noob and can't handle battles. Did I ever say anywhere that I didn't know how to fight? How to use paradigms? No I in fact did not. I simply said the auto battle is pretty much all you have to hit when fighting enemies. Which is true. There were a few times that I actually had to keep switching back and forth between paradigms during fights with either regular enemies, or bosses and I had to manually input my actions. Otherwise the computer had it under control by selecting the spells that were best used in that given fight.
So you can take your little assumption of me not knowing what I'm doing and shove it.

 

[Repliica]

I remember putting this game into my PS3 after I had finished up with Uncharted 2. My first thought was that the graphics were utterly terrible compared to what I had been playing. Now I'm not a graphics nazi but the way their fingers were shaped really annoyed me, the graphics weren't good at all only the environments were absolutely stunning. I adored Pulse as I'm sure many others did but that's about it for me when it comes to graphics also they can never go wrong with FMVs, I really feel like Square Enix should just concentrate on making animated films instead of games. If you want to play a visually stunning game I recommend something that actually utilizes the chosen consoles graphics engine to its full potential.

Anywho going into the game itself, I disliked it for the longest time, I stopped playing it for about two months before I picked it back up again and decided to finish it and it ended up not being that bad a game. Any veteran of the Final Fantasy series will usually say otherwise because it's something new and different from the original games. I remember reading a statement that said something along the lines of they wanted to break away from the traditional Final Fantasy and try to appeal to the younger generation. The moment I read that I felt like they needed to make a new game altogether but I feel like because they already have so much history and fans established with the Final Fantasy franchise they opted to try something new with that instead.

Linearity was a problem and what annoys me the most is when people start to say that all games are linear, you head towards a single point. That is true yes but the maps were bigger, you had more to explore, more to see and do (yes Calm Lands and Golden Saucer, I'm looking at you.) It was disappointing and utterly boring to go from point A to B without any trouble or exploration options. The game only opened up when you arrive on Pulse but by then you're pretty much near the end of the game anyway. Quite frankly at that point I just wanted to finish it, I wasn't too interested in the platinum trophy for this game so all the missions etc didn't appeal to me. I did a few before retiring and continuing on with the story.

The battle system was also pretty bland, I do however like the Paradigm system, I felt like it made a few of the boss fights pretty fun and challenging at times but otherwise it was pretty much spam auto battle unless you needed to use Highwind, Army of One etc. And I ESPECIALLY HATED THAT YOU WOULD GAME OVER WHEN YOUR LEADER DIED. Whoever put that into the game needed to be fired right then and there, it was TERRIBLE. I don't know how you could even think that that was a good addition. It really meant that I had to take on role of medic most of the time to ensure that my leader was the first to be healed and not the others.

Character wise, I actually grew to love everyone. Not one character got on my nerves and Vanille (who initially did get on my nerves) grew to be this pretty amazing character. I feel like those who hate her generally fall into the same pool as the Aerith haters. They don't tend to see the deeper side to the happy character. Vanille was burdened with remembering EVERYTHING. From being Ragnarok and destroying homes, families and lives to living with the guilt of what she had done to Sazh's son. Something like that would weigh heavily on any character yet Vanille tried her best to stay as positive as she could to try and turn a blind eye to all she had done. Eventually she breaks down, the burden she carried alone is now shared and she's no longer troubled, strengthened by Fang who supports her no matter what. It's beautiful. The only problem I do have with the characters is how quickly they develop. Lightning probably being the one that bugs me the most. She changes far too quickly, I mean maybe it's because she regrets so much, not having stood by Serah's side when she needed her most but it still felt far too hasty for my liking.

And lastly the story. Ahh, the story. Now I feel like this was a great story, it was pretty rocky to begin with mainly because all the characters are just thrown together so quickly and it feels like a mess but eventually it grows to be something that's really awesome. Sure it's not as amazing as the older Final Fantasy games but it did its part and reminded me of the ideals behind Gurren Lagann. The most iconic scene for me being when they're looking up at Sanctum, the positioning between them makes sure to state that it's certainly bigger than you are. Defying fate is always something I'll be a fan of when it comes to story telling and I certainly think that this did it fairly well granted there were quite a few loop holes.

Soooo put simply, if you disconnect this game from Final Fantasy and just look at it as a game without history, it really isn't that bad but when you compare it to the older games.. well, it certainly doesn't stand up to the classics.

 

[Cardinal Copia]

And I ESPECIALLY HATED THAT YOU WOULD GAME OVER WHEN YOUR LEADER DIED.

Omg this to the max. This right here was one of my biggest pet peeves with FF XIII. I remember getting my 1st game over like that and I was puzzled. That made me rage quite a few times.

 

[Razberry Knight]

If this is the impression you formed, I understand why you were bored, but nevertheless I can't agree with this assertion. FFXIII's combat is centered around the idea of changing into the right roles to handle shifting battle conditions. Auto-battle is a convenience intended for those who wanted to focus on strategic control without the added complexity of tactical control. Experienced gamers should be able to take manual control of their lead character for positive gain.

FFXIII has some of the best combat in the series (and I've been playing FF games since the original NES release). It's a shame you didn't develop enough skill to potentially appreciate it. It might not have compensated for the lack of exploration or overcome your dislike of the story and characters, but at least you could have avoided the grindy boredom that accompanies the easiest-to-use strategies of most any RPG's combat.

actually, most FFs used "tactic" over strategy. and thats what this game was all about, a bvery basic strategy between paradigms. there was no unlocking new optional attacks, so there was no customization or optimization of attacks. all it was was R and X buttons. hardly ever did you need to use a different attack.

 

[Repliica]

Omg this to the max. This right here was one of my biggest pet peeves with FF XIII. I remember getting my 1st game over like that and I was puzzled. That made me rage quite a few times.

This is probably the one reason why I yelled at Vanille so much, she was so frustrating as a healer and it annoyed me because I had to always take on the role of healer when it came to boss battles. She would always heal too slowly and just as heal comes my way I end up dying. UGH, if I didn't want to play healer then I'd have to play it extremely safe and have my allies go into healer early on.

 

[tiornys]

No I'll tell you what the real shame is. You assuming I'm a noob and can't handle battles. Did I ever say anywhere that I didn't know how to fight? How to use paradigms? No I in fact did not. I simply said the auto battle is pretty much all you have to hit when fighting enemies. Which is true. There were a few times that I actually had to keep switching back and forth between paradigms during fights with either regular enemies, or bosses and I had to manually input my actions. Otherwise the computer had it under control by selecting the spells that were best used in that given fight.
So you can take your little assumption of me not knowing what I'm doing and shove it.

I didn't assume you were a noob; in fact, I assumed you were an experienced FF player (I mean, your handle is from FFIX and you sound like a veteran). I didn't assume you didn't know how to handle FFXIII's battles; rather, I assumed that you overlooked a significant amount of the strategy available within FFXIII (very common among experienced FF players as a result of that experience). I deduced, from your comments about Auto-battle, that you had minimal experience with manual command entry. From that deduction, I made assumptions about your understanding of various strategies in FFXIII which tended to reinforce my earlier impressions. Since many strategies are vastly improved by manual command entry and others are downright impossible to execute without it, given minimal use of manual entry it is highly unlikely that you would have much experience with such strategies. Without knowledge of those strategies, you cannot match an expert's understanding of FFXIII's combat.

That said, I am still making assumptions, even though they aren't the assumptions you accused me of making. Perhaps I am wrong. Would you care to explain the reasoning behind your assertion that the combat centers around spamming Auto-battle? Would you agree with my assertion that manual command entry is generally superior to Auto-battle?

actually, most FFs used "tactic" over strategy. and thats what this game was all about, a bvery basic strategy between paradigms. there was no unlocking new optional attacks, so there was no customization or optimization of attacks. all it was was R and X buttons. hardly ever did you need to use a different attack.

Unpacking this statement, I see several assertions. First, that FF games are generally more about tactics than strategy. Second, that FFXIII only has strategies, and furthermore that those strategies are very basic. Third, that FFXIII is lacking in optional attacks and customization. Fourth, that attacks cannot be optimized in FFXIII. And finally, that FFXIII can be defeated using only the R and X buttons, with the implication that this is different from previous FF titles.

On the first point, I agree that most FF games gave you more tactical control than FFXIII does, but I don't agree that this means you weren't using strategy or that strategy was somehow less important in those games.

On the second point, I agree that you have very little tactical influence if you rely on Auto-battle, since that reduces your tactical scope to "what target is next". However, manual command entry gives you full tactical control over your party leader, and--given that the party leader's actions exert a predictable influence over the actions of your AI characters--it also gives you partial tactical control over your AI characters. I fully disagree that FFXIII's paradigm system only supports basic strategies.

On the third point, you are absolutely correct.

On the fourth point, I don't agree at all. To name a few counter examples: Adamantoise farming is largely based around Highwind optimization. Long Gui farming is based around Death optimization. The best strategies against the chapter 11 end boss involve the optimization of Sazh's Blitz attack.

On the final point, I agree that FFXIII can be defeated using nothing more than Auto-battle and paradigm shifts (since the "R" button merely shows you enemy info, I'm guessing you meant the "L" button for shifting--if not, I don't know if I can agree). How is this different from using nothing more than Attack, Cure, and the occasional magical attack (against physical-resistant enemies) in previous FF titles? Every FF game can be beaten by mostly using the X button with occasional other input; I didn't play those other FF titles that way, I didn't play FFXIII that way, and I don't see why that should be the default for evaluating FFXIII when it's not the default for evaluating the other titles.

edit: oh, and while I didn't hate the "party leader dies = game over" thing, I didn't like it either, and it's definitely a flaw in the combat system.

 

[Cardinal Copia]

I didn't assume you were a noob; in fact, I assumed you were an experienced FF player (I mean, your handle is from FFIX and you sound like a veteran). I didn't assume you didn't know how to handle FFXIII's battles; rather, I assumed that you overlooked a significant amount of the strategy available within FFXIII (very common among experienced FF players as a result of that experience). I deduced, from your comments about Auto-battle, that you had minimal experience with manual command entry. From that deduction, I made assumptions about your understanding of various strategies in FFXIII which tended to reinforce my earlier impressions. Since many strategies are vastly improved by manual command entry and others are downright impossible to execute without it, given minimal use of manual entry it is highly unlikely that you would have much experience with such strategies. Without knowledge of those strategies, you cannot match an expert's understanding of FFXIII's combat.

That said, I am still making assumptions, even though they aren't the assumptions you accused me of making. Perhaps I am wrong. Would you care to explain the reasoning behind your assertion that the combat centers around spamming Auto-battle? Would you agree with my assertion that manual command entry is generally superior to Auto-battle?

With the Auto Battle feature you don't have to do anything. You just sit there and the computer will use spells that are effective. For about 98% of the game I could stay in Relentless Assault and just Auto Battle fights and beat them under the time expected of me. Sure its optional and you don't have to do that, but why should I take the time to find spells and skills when the computer will just do it for me?
I'm not saying I never Paradigm shifted during boss fights or just normal fights. There were times like with the Long Gui and Vorcingetorix where you had to switch fast, and you had to have the perfect setups.
The fighting was centered around spamming Auto Battle and mashing either 'X' or 'A'. Unless you're fighting a difficult boss or a difficult enemy there was virtually no need to input your spells or even switch Paradigms because you know the computer has this under control.

 

[tiornys]

With the Auto Battle feature you don't have to do anything. You just sit there and the computer will use spells that are effective. For about 98% of the game I could stay in Relentless Assault and just Auto Battle fights and beat them under the time expected of me. Sure its optional and you don't have to do that, but why should I take the time to find spells and skills when the computer will just do it for me?
I'm not saying I never Paradigm shifted during boss fights or just normal fights. There were times like with the Long Gui and Vorcingetorix where you had to switch fast, and you had to have the perfect setups.
The fighting was centered around spamming Auto Battle and mashing either 'X' or 'A'. Unless you're fighting a difficult boss or a difficult enemy there was virtually no need to input your spells or even switch Paradigms because you know the computer has this under control.

I have difficulty believing that Relentless Assault will handle 98% of the battles without some sort of healing, but I can buy RA + Diversity getting through most of the main story's wandering encounters. You definitely need a more comprehensive approach for bosses and certain enemies unless you indulge in a lot of grinding. Given that, what it sounds like you're saying is "this functions, why do more?" Well, why do more than the minimum in any RPG? Because there's a satisfaction in crushing battles as opposed to merely defeating them. Because practicing better strategies against easier fights will help you utilize them when they matter. Because it's possible to take on high-level challenges early and thus gain various rewards when they have more impact. And most of all, because it's fun to get better at things. Do you approach every game with the mindset of only doing what the game forces you to do?

And I also reiterate: how is this different from using nothing more than Attack, Cure, and the occasional magical attack (against physical-resistant enemies) in previous FF titles? Every FF game can be beaten by mostly using the X button with occasional other input; I don't play those other FF titles that way, I don't play FFXIII that way, and I don't see why that should be the default for evaluating FFXIII when it's not the default for evaluating the other titles.

 

[Razberry Knight]

I didn't assume you were a noob; in fact, I assumed you were an experienced FF player (I mean, your handle is from FFIX and you sound like a veteran). I didn't assume you didn't know how to handle FFXIII's battles; rather, I assumed that you overlooked a significant amount of the strategy available within FFXIII (very common among experienced FF players as a result of that experience). I deduced, from your comments about Auto-battle, that you had minimal experience with manual command entry. From that deduction, I made assumptions about your understanding of various strategies in FFXIII which tended to reinforce my earlier impressions. Since many strategies are vastly improved by manual command entry and others are downright impossible to execute without it, given minimal use of manual entry it is highly unlikely that you would have much experience with such strategies. Without knowledge of those strategies, you cannot match an expert's understanding of FFXIII's combat.

That said, I am still making assumptions, even though they aren't the assumptions you accused me of making. Perhaps I am wrong. Would you care to explain the reasoning behind your assertion that the combat centers around spamming Auto-battle? Would you agree with my assertion that manual command entry is generally superior to Auto-battle?


Unpacking this statement, I see several assertions. First, that FF games are generally more about tactics than strategy. Second, that FFXIII only has strategies, and furthermore that those strategies are very basic. Third, that FFXIII is lacking in optional attacks and customization. Fourth, that attacks cannot be optimized in FFXIII. And finally, that FFXIII can be defeated using only the R and X buttons, with the implication that this is different from previous FF titles.

On the first point, I agree that most FF games gave you more tactical control than FFXIII does, but I don't agree that this means you weren't using strategy or that strategy was somehow less important in those games.

On the second point, I agree that you have very little tactical influence if you rely on Auto-battle, since that reduces your tactical scope to "what target is next". However, manual command entry gives you full tactical control over your party leader, and--given that the party leader's actions exert a predictable influence over the actions of your AI characters--it also gives you partial tactical control over your AI characters. I fully disagree that FFXIII's paradigm system only supports basic strategies.

On the third point, you are absolutely correct.

On the fourth point, I don't agree at all. To name a few counter examples: Adamantoise farming is largely based around Highwind optimization. Long Gui farming is based around Death optimization. The best strategies against the chapter 11 end boss involve the optimization of Sazh's Blitz attack.

On the final point, I agree that FFXIII can be defeated using nothing more than Auto-battle and paradigm shifts (since the "R" button merely shows you enemy info, I'm guessing you meant the "L" button for shifting--if not, I don't know if I can agree). How is this different from using nothing more than Attack, Cure, and the occasional magical attack (against physical-resistant enemies) in previous FF titles? Every FF game can be beaten by mostly using the X button with occasional other input; I didn't play those other FF titles that way, I didn't play FFXIII that way, and I don't see why that should be the default for evaluating FFXIII when it's not the default for evaluating the other titles.

edit: oh, and while I didn't hate the "party leader dies = game over" thing, I didn't like it either, and it's definitely a flaw in the combat system.

their is a HUGE difference between previous FFs and the current FFXIII. yes, you must press X (the action button) to execute an attack, that is what is important in RPGs. However, it takes more than just pressing X, you have to choose your attacks carefully. So directional buttons is also important. Any attack will do and mostly any attack will cause the enemy to stagger. THE HP bars are also incredribly thin, so even if you see the maximum attack, you wont be able to tell which attack did the most damage.

In previous FFs you had full control of your party. So you have to master each character well. Not only that but the monsters would vary, you would have to figure out the best attacks first aswell. So each and every time you level grind while going through the story would have a slightly different pace. Not only that but used the ATB to its fullest by giving you the mass of ammount of options. But with XIII, you can easily press X to any command knowing the difference would be very little and wait for the ATB bar to fill, and 90% of the time, you'lll be waiting, as for full-party control you don't wait as much because your choosing all 4-5 characters in real time, so most of the time you're deciding and choosing (all in fast-paced) one of your party members will be attacking.


the biggest issue about FFXIII is how extremely limiting it is for you to control your party (which is set up to be unnecessary anyways). The strategy isn't controlled completely by strategy using tactics, you just use strategy PERIOD, the very little tactic you use is only meant for how many stars you get after the battle. the game is set up only by strategies. So no full control, no quick-time thinking. And controlling the leader does very little, all three might aswell be AI.

The problem is, whether you're using autobattle or not, it will still feel like you're using auto-battle. The only difference is not manually switching paradigms and not manually controlling one character.

 

[Cardinal Copia]

I have difficulty believing that Relentless Assault will handle 98% of the battles without some sort of healing, but I can buy RA + Diversity getting through most of the main story's wandering encounters. You definitely need a more comprehensive approach for bosses and certain enemies unless you indulge in a lot of grinding. Given that, what it sounds like you're saying is "this functions, why do more?" Well, why do more than the minimum in any RPG? Because there's a satisfaction in crushing battles as opposed to merely defeating them. Because practicing better strategies against easier fights will help you utilize them when they matter. Because it's possible to take on high-level challenges early and thus gain various rewards when they have more impact. And most of all, because it's fun to get better at things. Do you approach every game with the mindset of only doing what the game forces you to do?

And I also reiterate: how is this different from using nothing more than Attack, Cure, and the occasional magical attack (against physical-resistant enemies) in previous FF titles? Every FF game can be beaten by mostly using the X button with occasional other input; I don't play those other FF titles that way, I don't play FFXIII that way, and I don't see why that should be the default for evaluating FFXIII when it's not the default for evaluating the other titles.

It's actually alot different than the Attack, Cure, and the occasional magic attack scenario you speak of. Why? You the player have full control of your entire party. You determine what happens in the battle. You don't control 1 person and hope that the other 2 dip shits take care of their end as well. YOU have to do everything. There is not Auto Battle option to use.
Seriously what are people going to gravitate towards? The Auto Battle feature? Or the skills/spells feature? Sure there's some that will manually do all of their stuff. But I can guarantee alot more will just play it out with Auto Battle. Again, why dedicate time to do more when the computer will do it for you? And not just do it for you, but do it to where you win a very good majority of your fights easily. I can easily run through 98% of the game with Relentless Assault. This game isn't that fucking hard......

Do I develop strategies in other RPG's and take time fighting? Do I actually "do more" in combat and "do more than the bare minimum?" Yes I do. Why? Because I prefer the classic turned combat style than this garbage system we have now. If future games went to FF X's battle system I would seriously be so fucking happy. That IMO is the best battle system we've been blessed with.

Plainly put. I hate the combat system in this game. There is your simple answer to your question. THAT is why I don't bother with anything. And me thinking the missions were going to be hard I gave them a try. And once again I was disappointed. I 5 starred 65 missions in 1 try, Vorcingetorix taking me 2. I'd say thats pretty fucking good and I'm entirely satisfied with that.