Does god forbid suicide or euthanasia?

[The Master]

But why would a loving god create things like sickness (which would make someone to want to be euthanised) and the like anyway. it's just a bit odd.

Because it APPARENTLY has something to do with sin... It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either...

 

[Will Graham]

Killing another human being in any way, even yourself, I believe is sinful. God doesn't WANT you to suffer, but I believe that the 'suffering' some people feel before they die is a punishment for unforgiven sins. Killing yourself or having someone else kill you is a way to get OUT of this punishment, and THAT'S why it's sinful to me...

So anyone with an incredibly painful terminal illness deserves it? Or only some of them do, but because they have to suffer till they die naturally then everyone has too?

 

[The Master]

So anyone with an incredibly painful terminal illness deserves it? Or only some of them do, but because they have to suffer till they die naturally then everyone has too?

It's complicated when you bring religion into things...
If it were up to me, I wouldn't want said person to suffer. I would help them any way I could.
I don't have all the answers. No one really does.

 

[Will Graham]

You kind of have to bring religion into a debate on religion. I just want you to clarify the previous post you made. Do you believe debilitating sicknesses which some people seek to be euthanised from, are a punishment from God in some cases?

 

[The Master]

You kind of have to bring religion into a debate on religion. I just want you to clarify the previous post you made. Do you believe debilitating sicknesses which some people seek to be euthanised from, are a punishment from God in some cases?

Hmmm.... In SOME cases I do... But not every situation. And I don't know why I think that... I just do. I believe there are things that we can TRY to explain as to 'why' but will never know, like why some good people suffer... There are SO many explanations out there, but we can either believe them, disbelieve them or just not have an opinion on them...
I'm very flexible when it comes to belief, I can adopt certain beliefs relatively easily.

 

[Harlequin]

Why don't you ask all the PhD theologians in the Catholic Church who guide the pursuit of biblical knowledge? These are the same type of people, all the way to the beginnings of Greek philosophy, who came up with everything from the Trinity to Purgatory to everything else that isn't explicitly noted in Scripture. They deduce these things from Scripture.

I'm not commenting on the legitimacy of Theology I'm asking what you know of it, seeing as you rather arrogantly called into question other peoples' knowledge of it. I doubt the theologians in the Catholic Church could answer the question I asked you.

It all has to do with Saint Aquina's position on free will and predestination, and how they coexist. What you do is of your own free will, and yet your choices are nonetheless predetermined.
It is a dualism. God has preeminence over everything. It is just that simple.

With all due respect my faith is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ not on "Saints" and their works. I don't see how your point on dualism contradicts what I've said on accountability. Just because something is predetermined it's not something that you'll not be accountable for which was your argument on suicide.

God allows righteous suicide, just as He allows righteous killing. The primary condition is that the prospects have to serve a greater good. Martyrdom, for example, is righteous suicide. Euthanasia is righteous suicide. The thing with euthanasia, however, is that the soul must be consecrated for the afterlife first. This is the official Church stance.

The official stance of the institutional Catholic Church of course. But I believe God's opinion on it is the only one that matters.

Jesus Christ did not commit suicide he was put to death. He knew the consequences of his righteousness and yet defied the alternative. If a crime has been committed it is murder on the executioners' part not suicide on his. The concept of self sacrifice and suicide are different.

And I find this idea of consecration laughable. How can a fellow fallible human being possibly account for another's soul in such a way? That to me is blasphemy. Playing God by manipulating another person into believing that somehow you have the authority to cleanse them of their sin is morally vile to me. I do not believe anyone can account for another's sin through confession and consecration.

John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

People who commit suicide lapse into a mentality they have no choice or control over. At that dark hour, it's a bit absurd to say they should be put to blame for it. That is sort of the contradiction in saying one has a choice or chance not to kill themselves. It falls under what Saint Aquina calls 'invincible ignorance', which is the predetermined disposition of the person which only God can change. In other words, as I said, it is a fate.

If they have no choice or control over their actions wouldn't God take that into account?

Either way, I feel that a loving God would not want people to suffer, and if someone feels that they have no way out of a situation and end up taking their own life, as tragic as that is, God would still welcome them into heaven. They were given free will by him apparently. They should be able to do what they need to do in life. I think suicide is a shitty thing but sometimes people just feel like theres no other way and why would a loving god punish people for that? It kinda makes no sense to me.

But why would a loving god create things like sickness (which would make someone to want to be euthanised) and the like anyway. it's just a bit odd.

There are a multitude of reasons one would commit suicide but if we take for example two overwhelming attitudes: one of defiance and one of desperation I believe God accounts for both. I can't tell you what is acceptable and what isn't in God's eyes but if you consider the desperate route as, for example, a person in deep financial trouble who has suffered, is suffering and will continue to suffer desperately in that situation there is more of a leniency in the teachings of God's attitude to humanity in Bible than say... the defiant example of a Wall Street banker who lived lavishly, lost it all and throws himself off a bridge to avoid the ignominy of having to live in financial strife.

I know you probably don't give a crap about any of this and I'm not trying to convince you of it it's just to clarify

Humility is paramount in the Bible. When Jesus washed his disciples' feet he taught a very important lesson in humility. By using suicide as a tool of defiance of his teachings, the Wall Street banker defied his lessons on humility and the sanctity of one's own body as opposed to the material wealth he essentially made an idol of in measuring his worth and purpose by it.

Both of the examples end in suicide and the act is no different in either case, however the following passage to me outlines God's attitude on the reasons for the deeds as opposed to the deeds themselves:

1 Samuel 16:7 - But the Lord said to Samuel, "Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart."

As for the sicknesses I can't give an answer to that. Perhaps it's a part of our test on Earth.

 

[Will Graham]

Hmmm.... In SOME cases I do... But not every situation. And I don't know why I think that... I just do. I believe there are things that we can TRY to explain as to 'why' but will never know, like why some good people suffer... There are SO many explanations out there, but we can either believe them, disbelieve them or just not have an opinion on them...
I'm very flexible when it comes to belief, I can adopt certain beliefs relatively easily.

Then you believe that in some cases it's a divine punishment and in some cases it's not. Your problem is that some people who choose euthanasia are getting out of their punishment. How so? Surely when they die it will be even easier for god to punish them? So those who are simply innocent but suffering and are euthanised will be released from that pain as well. In that case is euthanasia not the best option for everyone suffering from a terminal illness who wishes to die?

 

[The Master]

Then you believe that in some cases it's a divine punishment and in some cases it's not. Your problem is that some people who choose euthanasia are getting out of their punishment. How so? Surely when they die it will be even easier for god to punish them? So those who are simply innocent but suffering and are euthanised will be released from that pain as well. In that case is euthanasia not the best option for everyone suffering from a terminal illness who wishes to die?

I think people should do everything in their power to numb the pain of those suffering, but I don't think it should be done by killing them. That's my opinion. I would be interested to hear your viewpoint on the situation though. Like what you think are appropriate measures. I'm sure I could agree with you on some, if not all, your viewpoints.

 

[Shinra Executive]

I'm not commenting on the legitimacy of Theology I'm asking what you know of it, seeing as you rather arrogantly called into question other peoples' knowledge of it. I doubt the theologians in the Catholic Church could answer the question I asked you.

Theology is simply philosophy specifically within religion.

First, a little history:
During the first centuries, Christianity became most prominent from Rome and eventually all the way to Constantinople. Naturally, Greek philosophy took a strong grasp on religion. That, however, did not come until Christianity was fully legalized, which wasn't until the the beginning of the 4th century. But when it did, it didn't take long for both the East and the West to authorize a complete canon of Scripture, establish Creeds, and fully scrutinize every syllable and connection within the holy books.
The Trinity was one of the earliest things deduced from the newly constructed Bible. From there, dogmas and doctrines continued to be compiled and put into standard belief.


The reason for telling all that is because it is important to see how they discerned Scripture, being in a much more relevant time and when people couldn't simply just shoot off a million biased claims.
The Bible is not the only source of information. It did not simply fall out of the sky one day. It was in fact put together by the same people you say are playing God, getting everyone to focus on them. The truth is that they have the best streak at getting it right, and it is misinterpreted that they just want to be in control.

The reason I am theologically inclined is because learn from them. Hear say is often wrong, and that is a major thing with non-Catholics. For example, when the other poster stated that suicide messes up God's plan- that is not something you will hear from a theologian. That is something you will hear from a pastor or a layman.

With all due respect my faith is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ not on "Saints" and their works. I don't see how your point on dualism contradicts what I've said on accountability. Just because something is predetermined it's not something that you'll not be accountable for which was your argument on suicide.

Free will and predestination are extremely important things to be educated on. St. Aquinas has been the standard on the subject since the days he walked with Paul in Corinthians.
Part of what he taught was the teaching of 'invincible ignorance'. As an example, a staunch atheist will remain an atheist until something changes his mind. If nothing comes, then he will always be an atheist. He has no choice in the matter- you cannot force yourself to believe something. This is St. Aquinas notion of predestination., the man's free will cannot sway invincible ignorance.
You can take this logic and put it to many things, including suicide. A person, in the hour they intend to commit suicide, are in a state which their free will has no control over. Suicide is a very bellowing, mind consuming thing. Unless something comes along that will change their mind, they are going to kill their selves.
Because of this, they cannot be held responsible, because they have no preeminence over it. By extension, if a person kills their self, it is God willed. Whether they will go to Heaven or Hell is based entirely on other things, but God wanted them off the Earth.

You should marinate very hard on that before you respond. Also, I feel it adequately responds to the rest of your post.

 

[Yaoi Master Gavin]

I would just like to point out that some verses, in the way we interpret them are wholly and totally wrong by virtue of translation. Leviticus 20:13 via my handy dandy bible: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

To directly translate from Hebrew to English, convert 'mankind' to 'brother.' It's a verse about incest not homosexuality (Source: I have a faithful Jewish man as a roommate).

All I'm saying with this is that the bible can be and is wrong by virtue of mistranslations, additions, subtractions, etc. by whomever was translating it at the time. Think of it like Bing Translate - after so many translations, it begins to lose its true intent. Do keep that in mind when using bible verses as sources, especially from the ones that have 'New' as part of their name - they're the worst offenders.

 

[Tucker]

I'm gonna go ahead and answer the original question, and see what my years of going to a Catholic school show

Suicide is wrong. Killing yourself is wrong, no doubt about it. It's a sin. In many cases it is a mortal sin, and they will go to Hell.

However...not every person who commits suicide goes to Hell. There are a few reasons and circumstances and scenarios as to why.

First, what makes a sin a mortal sin?

1. The sin must be very, very serious and wrong.
2. The person must have full knowledge that what they are doing is wrong.
3. The person must fully commit to it and do it with their own free will.

So how, can someone who does not commit suicide, not go to Hell?

First I'll say that NOBODY knows of someone else's fate, ONLY God does.

So. If someone is under extreme emotional or physical stress, it affects their brain. Many of them do not think that what they are doing is really wrong. If someone kills themselves and are mentally ill, they aren't fully aware of the consequences and circumstances.

God is compassionate and loving. If someone is so extremely hurt that they can see NOTHING but their pain, they aren't stable. They aren't morally stable. Would he send that person to Hell? While I can't say NO OF COURSE NOT, there is more to say No than Yes.

Suicide is wrong. Is it unforgivable? No.
@Shinra Executive

Everything I learned in my faith told me (and people specifically told me) that our fates are most definitely not predetermined. I've been specifically told that from my priest when I had confirmation classes, and from a Brother (religious order) who was my teacher in junior high. Now from reading your latest post, I don't really see how that proves that our lives are predetermined.

God knows what we will do. He knows how we will die, and when. In that way, he knows our fate. But our fates are most certainly not predetermined God knows what we will do. He gives us free will to choose. We choose. He already knows what you will choose, but he didn't decide on it. He did not determine our lives. He simply gave us free will, and knows what we will choose. God has a plan for us...we either choose to follow it or stray away.

On your point of...invincible ignorance. If an atheist never learns of anything except atheism, he won't turn to God. However, he never rejected God. He never knew about Him. He never met the church. So is he wrong and evil? Of course not. But remember, we do to Jesus as we do to others. If we are kind and loving to other people, we are doing so to God and aren't bad people. This doesn't relate really to the original point, but if you like you say have nothing come to "change your mind" then you did nothing wrong, and can't be held accountable for it.

I was agreeing with your last paragraph until I read the last part. God most certainly does not will someone to kill themselves. If someone were extremely hurt like bullying or something, and it consumed their mind because they were so hurt and they kill themselves, that wasn't God's will I really fail to see how you come to that conclusion.

I remember reading that you are Roman Catholic...am I wrong? Well I am too, and I have always been taught that our fates are not already laid out for us. Also, the Catholic Church's stance on this is that our lives are not predetermined.

 

[Shinra Executive]

@Shinra Executive

Everything I learned in my faith told me (and people specifically told me) that our fates are most definitely not predetermined. I've been specifically told that from my priest when I had confirmation classes, and from a Brother (religious order) who was my teacher in junior high. Now from reading your latest post, I don't really see how that proves that our lives are predetermined.

God knows what we will do. He knows how we will die, and when. In that way, he knows our fate. But our fates are most certainly not predetermined God knows what we will do. He gives us free will to choose. We choose. He already knows what you will choose, but he didn't decide on it. He did not determine our lives. He simply gave us free will, and knows what we will choose. God has a plan for us...we either choose to follow it or stray away.

On your point of...invincible ignorance. If an atheist never learns of anything except atheism, he won't turn to God. However, he never rejected God. He never knew about Him. He never met the church. So is he wrong and evil? Of course not. But remember, we do to Jesus as we do to others. If we are kind and loving to other people, we are doing so to God and aren't bad people. This doesn't relate really to the original point, but if you like you say have nothing come to "change your mind" then you did nothing wrong, and can't be held accountable for it.

I was agreeing with your last paragraph until I read the last part. God most certainly does not will someone to kill themselves. If someone were extremely hurt like bullying or something, and it consumed their mind because they were so hurt and they kill themselves, that wasn't God's will

I really fail to see how you come to that conclusion.

God willed those who transgressed against certain things in the Old Law to die. He willed entire cities to be destroyed, as well as genocide. He even flooded the Earth. We can sit here all day and ignore these things., talk about how Jesus saves and whatnot- but that's just ignoring the fact that God is still the Abrahamic God.
A lot of people labor under delusions when they look at Christianity. They think that because Jesus died on the cross, God all of a sudden isn't doing His business., that He's rather just saving and not being God.

That is not true at all. In fact, God has preeminence over government, as noted in Romans, and if you look closely, you will see that government resembles the old Law in big ways.
The death penalty (eye for eye), abortion (fetuses considered property), Nazi Germany (genocide)..
People don't want to look at the facts, they want to labor under what they want to believe. God is preeminent. He has to be, or else He cannot possibly be God. It is a metaphysical fact.

It is a general notion that people do not deserve to live- the New Covenant is not justice, it is grace. So when a person kills their self, they are simply enacting that justice. The way to understand is by acknowledging the fact that when a person commits suicide, it is hardly a choice. They are in the hands of God at that hour. It is disturbingly arrogant for someone to say otherwise.

I remember reading that you are Roman Catholic...am I wrong? Well I am too, and I have always been taught that our fates are not already laid out for us. Also, the Catholic Church's stance on this is that our lives are not predetermined.

Predetermination and free will are two sides of the same coin. The only people who pin one against the other are Protestants- the apostolic churches are pretty settled on the traditional concept. As I said, St. Aquinas is the standard here. There are different beliefs, such as Calvinist predestination which the Church does not agree with, but she certainly does not deny the inevitable fact that it exist on some level- specifically how Aquinas explained it. In fact, Calvin used Aquinas as a heavy reference- you will see many similarities despite the different conclusions.

 

[Tucker]

God the Abraham God...sounds terrible, no doubt. Technically it wasn't genocide though. Those people weren't killed just because they were from a certain place. They were killed because they denied God. However in a way, yes, the Abraham God was different. In the Old Testament, people didn't go to Heaven or Hell when they died. There was no salvation. The only things they knew were of this Earth. God dealt his punishment to people who rejected him on Earth. There wasn't punishment in the afterlife. Then Jesus came and brought salvation. Yay! With that he said many times that the kingdom we seek isn't on Earth, but in a different world. Heaven. That's why Jesus taught about loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek, because they will get what they deserve in the afterlife.

Are you saying that the Holocaust was caused by God?

And I think the opposite. If someone were thinking of committing suicide, I don't think they'd be in the hands of God. What brought them to do so? Evil...like hate, despair, sadness. They are acting out of another evil. And people who commit suicide feel alienated, even from God himself.

God made us to live. And to live long. We need to keep our bodies healthy, so we can live. We must by physically and spiritually strong, and we are meant to spread the Gospel. Life is very important. We can't just throw it away.

 

[Shinra Executive]

God the Abraham God...sounds terrible, no doubt. Technically it wasn't genocide though. Those people weren't killed just because they were from a certain place. They were killed because they denied God. However in a way, yes, the Abraham God was different. In the Old Testament, people didn't go to Heaven or Hell when they died. There was no salvation. The only things they knew were of this Earth. God dealt his punishment to people who rejected him on Earth. There wasn't punishment in the afterlife. Then Jesus came and brought salvation. Yay! With that he said many times that the kingdom we seek isn't on Earth, but in a different world. Heaven. That's why Jesus taught about loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek, because they will get what they deserve in the afterlife.

Are you saying that the Holocaust was caused by God?

And I think the opposite. If someone were thinking of committing suicide, I don't think they'd be in the hands of God. What brought them to do so? Evil...like hate, despair, sadness. They are acting out of another evil. And people who commit suicide feel alienated, even from God himself.

God made us to live. And to live long. We need to keep our bodies healthy, so we can live. We must by physically and spiritually strong, and we are meant to spread the Gospel. Life is very important. We can't just throw it away.

The Old Testament God and the New Testament God are the same God. The Trinity is three different beings, not one being morphing into other beings. The Father works the Old Law, and the Son works the New Covenant. But since they are both singularly God, denying the Son is denying the Father.

If a person were to commit suicide by the intent of simply wanting a shortcut into Heaven, then what you say could be applied. However, most people who commit suicide just want to be done with their misery.

It is impossible to drown yourself without being tied down to where you can't resurface. In the same way, it is impossible for a person to carry out a suicide unless they are tied down to fate.
A person in the moment of their suicide cannot escape it, because they are trapped. Something has to come along to rescue them. Now, should something good happen in one's life, is it not appropriate to thank God? And if so, why? Is it not because God has brought grace to your life?
In the same way, the saving grace which prevents one from suicide is God's work. But it works both ways- if the suicide is carried out, it was God's will by the lack of saving grace.
Case in point, those who commit suicide were whisked away by God. What happens next for them is something between the person and God.

 

[Tucker]

I know they are the same God...however the Son and the Father are different. And yes, the trinity is 3 beings together that become 1. 1 God. I know

I agree with what you said...if someone is going to commit suicide their mind won't change unless something changes it. That doesn't mean it was your fate to commit suicide. It means that that's just what happened. And maybe if you turned to God, it wouldn't have. Most who commit suicide didn't turn to God.

You can't assume that then God wants the person to kill their self. God does test people, and God does work in mysterious ways. There's a person about to commit suicide. Maybe if they prayed, God would have swayed their mind. Maybe if they thought about it more, they'd change their mind. Maybe if they just did one thing, that was God's way of helping them. But then that person commits suicide. It wasn't God's plan.

That's like saying if a person is murdered, and God did nothing to save them, that it was their fate to die and God intended it all along. That's completely not true.

Also you didn't answer my question...Do you believe it was God's plan for the Holocaust to happen?

What is fate? Fate is when your future is set in stone, and you can't change it. And we know, that's the opposite of free will. So in that way fate is not real. If you mean it as God knows our "fate" or, how we will die, then that is real. Meaning fate as "how you die". But we have control over that. God already knows it, but we have control over that.

 

[Shinra Executive]

I know they are the same God...however the Son and the Father are different. And yes, the trinity is 3 beings together that become 1. 1 God. I know

I agree with what you said...if someone is going to commit suicide their mind won't change unless something changes it. That doesn't mean it was your fate to commit suicide. It means that that's just what happened. And maybe if you turned to God, it wouldn't have. Most who commit suicide didn't turn to God.

You can't assume that then God wants the person to kill their self. God does test people, and God does work in mysterious ways. There's a person about to commit suicide. Maybe if they prayed, God would have swayed their mind. Maybe if they thought about it more, they'd change their mind. Maybe if they just did one thing, that was God's way of helping them. But then that person commits suicide. It wasn't God's plan.

That's like saying if a person is murdered, and God did nothing to save them, that it was their fate to die and God intended it all along. That's completely not true.

A lot of people tend to contradict what fate is when they speak about it, especially when it comes to theology. It is s very common thing- it took me a while to discipline my theology even after I had it packed down.
It is really easy to misconstrue it in debate., fate is a very slippery concept.

The thing is, fate is not something you choose., it's not something that you alter or change. It may seem like one can, but just because one's life reaches an end contrary to what one thought or planned, or the exact opposite thereof, doesn't mean their fate ever changed. Quite simply, that end was their fate.
That was the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread. Someone brought up that if a person commits suicide, they are denying God's plan for them. That is inherently contradictory.

Also you didn't answer my question...Do you believe it was God's plan for the Holocaust to happen?

Yes. Everything that happens in government is God's will. Paul comes right out and says it in Romans. You see a lot of God's preeminence in the world beyond the scope of Christianity. However, outside that scope is God being God- there is not so much grace. You have the Holocaust, which is Mosaic justice. It is rare to see Mosaic Law in such gravity. Such a thing hasn't happened since biblical times, you see. It's as unfortunate as it is ironic that it was the Jews.

But then there are other things as well. a lot of people may see such beliefs as antisemitism and whatnot, because people don't ever hear the totality of what it means. The Revolutionary War, for example, was God's way of providing an outlet for the corruption that had been going on in Europe for centuries. The fall of Rome and the odd protection of the Roman Church is pretty self-evident to Paul's teaching as well.
You'll see it everywhere in history and current events, you just have to think really hard and carefully about it. As I mentioned earlier, you also see it in law.

What is fate? Fate is when your future is set in stone, and you can't change it. And we know, that's the opposite of free will. So in that way fate is not real. If you mean it as God knows our "fate" or, how we will die, then that is real. Meaning fate as "how you die". But we have control over that. God already knows it, but we have control over that.

Perhaps it's time for a more thorough explanation.

God exists at all stages of time. This is what comes with omniscience- it's not just all places physically, but in time as well. In Revelations, He says "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end". In other words, God is timeless, and so He is not subject to the movement of time. He is here now, and He is there yesterday, and He is there tomorrow all at once.

He is in all stages of time putting all things together. However, you are subject to time. Rather then putting in all motions at once, you have to make them one at a time. That is your free will at work. Your predestination, however, is being sowed by God.

But since God created the universe with His omnipotent knowledge, and yet exists at all stages of time, you are faced with the fact that we are not in a state of post-creation, but actually in creation itself. It only seems otherwise because we exist in time where yesterday and tomorrow differentiate from each other. Therefore, even your free choices are predestined by God because God is literally creating circumstances for your choices, sowing it all up.

Henceforth, predestination and free will co-exist. Your actions are sowed into God's will toward the end that God wants.


It is a whole lot to take in, but predestination and free will are subjects you should study for yourself. They are extremely important because they envelope all of biblical theology. You could take just about any subject in religious debate and make it about predestination vs free will.

 

[Shu]

A lot of people tend to contradict what fate is when they speak about it, especially when it comes to theology. It is s very common thing- it took me a while to discipline my theology even after I had it packed down.
It is really easy to misconstrue it in debate., fate is a very slippery concept.

The thing is, fate is not something you choose., it's not something that you alter or change. It may seem like one can, but just because one's life reaches an end contrary to what one thought or planned, or the exact opposite thereof, doesn't mean their fate ever changed. Quite simply, that end was their fate.
That was the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread. Someone brought up that if a person commits suicide, they are denying God's plan for them. That is inherently contradictory.



Yes. Everything that happens in government is God's will. Paul comes right out and says it in Romans. You see a lot of God's preeminence in the world beyond the scope of Christianity. However, outside that scope is God being God- there is not so much grace. You have the Holocaust, which is Mosaic justice. It is rare to see Mosaic Law in such gravity. Such a thing hasn't happened since biblical times, you see. It's as unfortunate as it is ironic that it was the Jews.

But then there are other things as well. a lot of people may see such beliefs as antisemitism and whatnot, because people don't ever hear the totality of what it means. The Revolutionary War, for example, was God's way of providing an outlet for the corruption that had been going on in Europe for centuries. The fall of Rome and the odd protection of the Roman Church is pretty self-evident to Paul's teaching as well.
You'll see it everywhere in history and current events, you just have to think really hard and carefully about it. As I mentioned earlier, you also see it in law.



Perhaps it's time for a more thorough explanation.

God exists at all stages of time. This is what comes with omniscience- it's not just all places physically, but in time as well. In Revelations, He says "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end". In other words, God is timeless, and so He is not subject to the movement of time. He is here now, and He is there yesterday, and He is there tomorrow all at once.

He is in all stages of time putting all things together. However, you are subject to time. Rather then putting in all motions at once, you have to make them one at a time. That is your free will at work. Your predestination, however, is being sowed by God.

But since God created the universe with His omnipotent knowledge, and yet exists at all stages of time, you are faced with the fact that we are not in a state of post-creation, but actually in creation itself. It only seems otherwise because we exist in time where yesterday and tomorrow differentiate from each other. Therefore, even your free choices are predestined by God because God is literally creating circumstances for your choices, sowing it all up.

Henceforth, predestination and free will co-exist. Your actions are sowed into God's will toward the end that God wants.


It is a whole lot to take in, but predestination and free will are subjects you should study for yourself. They are extremely important because they envelope all of biblical theology. You could take just about any subject in religious debate and make it about predestination vs free will.

Now I am not saying put your convictions on the table, but I will point out the obvious here. You mentioned contradictions, which is good, if you are a christian and have not read your bible, then you my friend are not a christian. Someone who stands behind the word of god through and through, scares me more than someone who claims to be a christian, due to doing kind acts and believing in the flying spaghetti monster. Why? Because standing behind that many contradictions and still claiming it all true, is like.. Me saying.. well suicides should happen because it allows people to persevere. WHAT?! Suicides are a part of life granted, but they are probably the worst thing that can happen for a parent or a loved one. Not everything has reason, hence why the predestination thing takes a back seat here.

I have never met a christian, quite yet, who thought suicide and/or euthanasia was considered okay due to predestination. That's like saying, well.. still born babies and children who have cancer and suffer till death are predestined. Well if so, your god is quite a bit of an ass hole. This life isn't a movie. When terrible things happen, like those in the movie, you can't predict how you can act. If someone commits suicide it echoes. It leaves a deadening sound and feeling and ripples outwards. It leaves no reason as to why most of the time, other than the cop out line "oh he had depression, it makes sense how." No it doesn't.

Let me back it up and put things into perspective. When war wasn't chemical and filled with gun powder.. and it was more about territorial nationality.. there was a lot of suicide. It was about honor though. Seppuku or Harakiri is what they called it. It was a social norm back then, due to it didn't give another man (samurai mostly) the right to end your life, but gave you the chance to do it with honor. It's beautiful in my opinion. Now suicide has such a negative stigma, due to how much emotional trama is built up around it. If a person wants to kill him or herself, let them. No matter if it's on their death bed or not, I think it should be a reserved right, and shouldn't be divinely judged.

Though let's take euthanasia now. If someone is suffering, and no matter what they are going to die, I think it's quite alright. If they can't even move and have no ability to have value of their life, I believe it's humane to allow them to choose. It's selfish to allow someone to suffer longer, because of your love for them. I have witnessed in my own family with my aunt, and she cried out in agony till the very end, due to my uncle.

When a religious person says.. "oh well they are going to hell" it crushes me. First one.. assuming that there is a hell, and two, that no matter how he treated people and or acted, that because he killed himself, he now goes to hell. Sick world we live in.

 

[Shinra Executive]

Suicides are a part of life granted, but they are probably the worst thing that can happen for a parent or a loved one.

Correction: The causes for suicide are the worst things that can happen. It's particularly why they committed suicide. If a parent or loved one is struck by it, it should be for the things which caused it. People who commit suicide do so for the same general reasons. But instead of anyone trying to fix the reasons for which people commit suicide for, they go and sob over the death of the person, and talk about how suicide is wrong.

Everyone on this thread has said suicide is wrong, and yet they either promote or are indifferent of a society that produces theses things. No accountability, you see, and yet every other post on here has mentioned something along the lines of accountability.

I have never met a christian, quite yet, who thought suicide and/or euthanasia was considered okay due to predestination.

I never said suicide was okay, I said that suicide is due to predestination. This will be the third time someone has beat a straw man on my standing.

That's like saying, well.. still born babies and children who have cancer and suffer till death are predestined. Well if so, your god is quite a bit of an ass hole.

Has it ever occurred to you that these things happen for a reason? Just because you do not know the reason doesn't mean there isn't one. If everything was grand, then you'd have no quarrel with things happens for a reason. When times are tough or bad things happen, all of a sudden things don't happen for a reason. It is inherently fallacious logic, driven by emotion.
Stillborns make parents more appreciative of their next child, and that child becomes a great person as a result. Chances are, they are not going to be up in the category of suicidal people.
Do you see the connection there?

 

[greenyxi]

I think...and I wouldn't normally post in religious threads...that suicide is ok so long as the person is absolutely having a nightmare of a life. If you are certain to die, euthanasia is a very plausable option, considering there's no downside as such. It IS selfish, if the person has a family. It IS wasting a life, if the person is only mentally unstable. But it's completely up to the person, and it isn't up to anyone to judge the "victim of society".

Suicide is not a bad thing to be judged by anyone, nor is it a good thing to be applauded. It's just...that person's very viable option to stop what must be a very miserable life.

Back to euthanasia (what a badly layed out post lol). I honestly don't see the negative impact of someone having the option. Sure, the person who does it could be persuaded into death over a longer life, in a very soap drama fashion, but so long as investigations are taken into each case of euthanasia...surely it would be found out the majority of the time? This will take up police resources, but they aren't exactly up to much else, at least in my area. The police sure do love their pizzas/doughnuts at work .

Hope this made an ounce of sense :$

 

[Ultimaja]

Here are the points about suicide given in the Catechism of the Church:

• "Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of."
• "Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God."
• "If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal."
• "Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law."
  
• "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide."
• "We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives."

*euthanasia

*this I find particularly interesting