Fantasy Realm of Tolerance...

[HighwindPilot]

Sooo, a couple topics recently have got me thinking about this question. Just what or how much are these FF characters supposed to be able to endure?

I used to think of things like getting shot with bullets or hacked a few times as an obvious gameplay-only factor (like with most games), but I'm not so sure...

Examples:
-
In VII, I recall Barret getting shot a few times by Dene following the fight, and he just kind of took it.

AC opened up with Cloud getting capped in the face by one of whatever-their-names are, and he only loses his goggles. A lot of people thought this silly, but now I wonder if not?

Crisis Core had Angeal

Spoiler

taking a Fira to the face by Genesis (even if it was a training simulation, Genesis still gets cut by Sephiroth later in that fight)

Also in Crisis Core, the ending

Spoiler

had Zack getting canned by Soldiers, but it took relentless barrages before he dropped.

In VIII, there's the opening scene between Seifer and Squall. When they cut each other, they were left with gashes, but should that have been worse if they were "normal"?

Also in VIII, I seem to recall a few battles of the Garden

Spoiler

War, in which someone would get hacked at or shot a few times and remain standing.

-

Most of the other later installments, sans XII, didn't really mess with fights in cut scenes or fmvs, but I could be missing some examples.

So, are the thresholds of our battling FF characters supposed to actually extend beyond that of the average joe? Is that another factor of their "extraordinary" statures? I'm sure it fluctuates between games, but I'm wondering in general.

 

[Martel]

Now, this is an interesting point. It seems to be based more on convenience and the situation more than anything else, I think. Being hurt by a normal soldier isn't very dramatic, and its kind of pathetic. But getting hacked to pieces by a boss is not only dramatic, its expected. Bosses are supposed to be more powerful (at least initially) than main characters; something for them to overcome. Getting hurt in the process is all part of the development...at least, that might be how it works.

Most Final Fantasy characters seem to have Batfink complexes or something. "Your *insert weapon of mass destruction here* cannot harm me! My wings are like a shield of steel!". However, once you get around that with something out of the ordinary, they're just as mortal as the next average joe. I suppose it WOULD be kind of boring if you ploughed through the game absolutely immortal...after all, only villains are allowed to pose as Gods, and then only for a little while.

 

[Linnaete]

Most Final Fantasy characters seem to have Batfink complexes or something. "Your *insert weapon of mass destruction here* cannot harm me! My wings are like a shield of steel!".

I love that reference to Batfink as a way to explain your point. Batfink is awesome

These are fantasy fictional characters. I suppose anything could go for them. You can even pretend they have the Protect or Shell spells in effect to give them extra protection.

You always see the characters nearly completely unharmed after boss battles even if you're a teenage girl facing a Scion God. That in itself is bizarre because it makes them look almost omnipotent. However as Lymle said, it is done purely out of convenience. They need to move the plot along- the boss is just there to remind the player that it is a game.

 

[HighwindPilot]

Now, this is an interesting point. It seems to be based more on convenience and the situation more than anything else, I think.

For starters, excellent post.

The convenience thing was a reoccuring thought that came to mind while posting this topic. It seems like they would make it fluctuate depending on their intentions. Furthermore, it would also be considered that in this "realm", the power of all weapons is made equal *or* there's some fluctuation involved. Hence, Wakka fighting monsters with a Blitzball, sword-wielding Balamb soldiers fighting gun-wielding Galbadian soldiers, any "monk/fighter" of any FF, or even larger instances like Angeal and Zack respectively withstanding things like Fira and bullets while a mere hack of Sephiroth's sword gives a cut to Genesis that's worth their concern.

Most Final Fantasy characters seem to have Batfink complexes or something. "Your *insert weapon of mass destruction here* cannot harm me! My wings are like a shield of steel!". However, once you get around that with something out of the ordinary, they're just as mortal as the next average joe.

This is actually a good in-game, logical explanation for the fluctuation. Perhaps a character's accessories, equipment, and so forth are stripped, they are as vulnerable as any?

I suppose it WOULD be kind of boring if you ploughed through the game absolutely immortal...after all, only villains are allowed to pose as Gods, and then only for a little while.

Well, the way I thought of it is that both the good forces and the opposition were both extraordinary in strength and tolerance, which would make both sides above average and the playing field equal. And perhaps "levels" presented in the games do reflect where characters stand in comparison to others, so that (as mentioned above), some bosses could hack you up while lowly soldiers won't harm you much.

VII has kind of implied that at times, especially with Soldier. VI, VIII, and IX all have as well.

 

[Apparent Amarant]

Now, this is an interesting point. It seems to be based more on convenience and the situation more than anything else, I think. Being hurt by a normal soldier isn't very dramatic, and its kind of pathetic. But getting hacked to pieces by a boss is not only dramatic, its expected. Bosses are supposed to be more powerful (at least initially) than main characters; something for them to overcome. Getting hurt in the process is all part of the development...at least, that might be how it works.
.

I agree with a lot of this. Except

Spoiler

Zack is the only one who gets killed by regular Soldiers and takes what looks like the entire Shin-ra army to stop him. He's dragging his sword at this point(in the end battle if you remember and can barely hold it to swing it.

I actually think they did a really good job making the believable and it was more believable then the reactor scene. This is just my opinion though.

I think that for the most part it comes down to convenience as well because it seems that at times certain characters can take more punishments then they can at other times when strength gain or whatever should make it seem otherwise. Sometimes characters take a crazy amount of punishment and live through it and sometimes they die. It's just whichever makes the story better. Square has never been really great at making everything make sense.

Spoiler

believe Genesis being cut was simply to show that he wasn't quite as strong as Sephiroth, and would lose a toe to toe battle. Which is understandable being that Sephiroth was the first of the three and the most experienced since they had become what they were. I think the scene was also Genesis's inability to accept the fact he wasn't as strong. Which had he lived, and if there is another spin-off, I hope they use/would have used it as his main motivation for gaining even more strength

I could be wrong though but that's what I always took from the scene.

I believe there isn't a single FF character that's playable or a boss whose threshold didn't extent passed the point of the average joe. I would say "yes" this is intentional. They are all somewhat superhuman compared to real life people. They are fantasy games and not meant to be realistic. The main characters are essentially super heroes.

 

[Martel]

The convenience thing was a reoccuring thought that came to mind while posting this topic. It seems like they would make it fluctuate depending on their intentions. Furthermore, it would also be considered that in this "realm", the power of all weapons is made equal *or* there's some fluctuation involved. Hence, Wakka fighting monsters with a Blitzball, sword-wielding Balamb soldiers fighting gun-wielding Galbadian soldiers, any "monk/fighter" of any FF, or even larger instances like Angeal and Zack respectively withstanding things like Fira and bullets while a mere hack of Sephiroth's sword gives a cut to Genesis that's worth their concern.

I think a lot of it depends on level and storyline. Taking your examples, monsters and soldiers and the like are common; you can find them anywhere. Making them particularly powerful would make the game extremely hard, and it wouldn't make all too much sense. People like Sephiroth are unique, and they're central to the storyline. A weak antagonist isn't a very good antagonist. Not to mention these unique characters often have a great deal more experience to justify their battle prowess...and they're usually quite a high level, as well.

This is actually a good in-game, logical explanation for the fluctuation. Perhaps a character's accessories, equipment, and so forth are stripped, they are as vulnerable as any?

Since the equipment makes characters stronger, I'd say that was probable - after all, say you unequip all your materia and accessories in Crisis Core and try and take on Minerva. You'll get absolutely trashed in a matter of seconds. Do it in boss battles and the same thing is probably going to happen, unless you're extremely overlevelled.

However, on the flip side, it depends on the equipment...put a heavy suit of armour on and you'll be protected in theory, but unless you're seriously muscled - which the majority of FF characters are not - they'll get ripped to pieces by monsters. Same with the giant swords - there is absolutely no way Cloud could swing a sword as big as his efficiently with the muscles he has unless it was made of something stupidly light...

Well, the way I thought of it is that both the good forces and the opposition were both extraordinary in strength and tolerance, which would make both sides above average and the playing field equal. And perhaps "levels" presented in the games do reflect where characters stand in comparison to others, so that (as mentioned above), some bosses could hack you up while lowly soldiers won't harm you much.

VII has kind of implied that at times, especially with Soldier. VI, VIII, and IX all have as well.

Ah, I've never thought of the forces of good and evil as equal - in games, it seems to be more of a sliding scale from evil to good in my opinion. Its how the storyline works. After all, if the forces of good and evil were balanced, surely when the hero starts out he could just go straight out and face the main villain, regardless of the unequal battle experience? Evil is always the stronger force to begin with, otherwise there wouldn't be a problem for the hero to overcome. The hero wouldn't be able to actually overcome the villain either if they were equal in strength.

Dissidia portrays the forces of good and evil as equal overall, but even in Dissidia evil gets the upper hand initially before good asserts its dominance. I think the forces are equal more in the regard of the long-term, overall picture: neither force will triumph entirely over the other, but smaller, inconsequential victories and power imbalances are to be expected.

I agree with you about levels - the higher your level, the more powerful you are, so it makes perfect sense that the level would reflect battle prowess.

I agree with a lot of this. Except

Spoiler

Zack is the only one who gets killed by regular Soldiers and takes what looks like the entire Shin-ra army to stop him. He's dragging his sword at this point(in the end battle if you remember and can barely hold it to swing it.

I actually think they did a really good job making the believable and it was more believable then the reactor scene. This is just my opinion though.

Good point. Although I think the key point as to why that whole scene worked the way it did is that

Spoiler

it took an entire army to stop him. Zack isn't a God after all, and the whole "strength in numbers" thing applies regardless of how powerful you are. It also added to the dramatic effect of the whole scene: as you've noted, it was believable, and it was quite a sad ending in my opinion. Zack survives fighting Sephiroth, Angeal and Genesis, only to be overwhelmed by strength of numbers. Its an ironic and powerful scene. For Zack to cut down an entire army of soldiers would have been unrealistic. Granted, he did the same thing at the beginning of the game, but those were holograms, and there weren't nearly so many of them. Not to mention it was the beginning of the game, and the whole convenience thing applies. So, in that case, I'd say it was an acceptable exception to the rule, given the absence of a villain and the need to set the scene for FFVII. Crisis Core is the only prequel to an FF game and, thinking about it, it made much more sense (and much more of an impact) for Zack to be killed by normal soldiers than by Genesis or Angeal. It tied up all the loose ends nicely.

Its been said a couple of times now that these are fantasy characters, and that anything could apply to them. I agree to an extent - the realistic setting for the games is just so that the player can relate to the story and the characters, and the insane stunts are to keep the player interested - after all, a fantasy game true to real-life would be nowhere near as exciting. The injuries and whatnot are for the purpose of character development and, by extension, story progression, because in RPGs at least that kind of development is important. However, I think there ARE limits to what the protagonists at least can do - the earlier example provided by Apparent Amaranth is a good one.

...its fun trying to figure out just how this stuff works, though~

 

[Jimmy]

I believe it's just a matter of battle power translated into level ups, as you level up you gain HP and all of your stats increase making you more powerful to weaker opponents, like the Shin'Ra troops, however when someone faces a guy like Sephiroth whose battle power surpasses anything and anyone it's only natural a single strike might finish someone with a lower power level.

That's why if you go and fight regular Shin'Ra Troops in Midgar when you have powered up to high levels it's only natural that you could go around slicing them up one by one without effort and you could probably destroy an entire army too.

Power leveling makes sense in Final Fantasy...

 

[Apparent Amarant]

I believe it's just a matter of battle power translated into level ups, as you level up you gain HP and all of your stats increase making you more powerful to weaker opponents, like the Shin'Ra troops, however when someone faces a guy like Sephiroth whose battle power surpasses anything and anyone it's only natural a single strike might finish someone with a lower power level.

That's why if you go and fight regular Shin'Ra Troops in Midgar when you have powered up to high levels it's only natural that you could go around slicing them up one by one without effort and you could probably destroy an entire army too.

Power leveling makes sense in Final Fantasy...

In VII yes because the villains don't level up with you like in CC or in VIII. The soldiers you fight at the end of CC have way higher attack power and HP then the ones you fight early. Even then though

Spoiler

it takes an entire army to beat someone who is severely injured and can barely hold their weapon. someone who hasnt even been 1st class for as long as anyone esle

The fact they change the basics like wether villains level or not and the battle gameplay from game to game makes me think strength is relative. For instance Squall doesn't leap 200 feet in the air by jumping on peoples hands like Cloud in AC but I dont think he is mean to be weaker. It's just the FFVIII realms has different limitations. So I always imagine abilities would change slightly depending on what realm they were in.

 

[LittleMissDismissed]

They have no set limit, Square keeps on crossing the line between overpowered anime retards and RPG. I love the RPG parts of the game, but when I see the main character jump 500ft into the air and slice through buildings you get disappointed with in-game play. The more Square progresses the more overpowered the characters get in cut-scenes, honestly by FF15 I think we'll be having characters with the resistance of the guys in DBZ in and out of cut-scenes. I have no fear for the characters lives as of late, they just don't seem to be killable...It kind of takes away the suspense

 

[HighwindPilot]

Ah, I've never thought of the forces of good and evil as equal - in games, it seems to be more of a sliding scale from evil to good in my opinion. Its how the storyline works. After all, if the forces of good and evil were balanced, surely when the hero starts out he could just go straight out and face the main villain, regardless of the unequal battle experience? Evil is always the stronger force to begin with, otherwise there wouldn't be a problem for the hero to overcome. The hero wouldn't be able to actually overcome the villain either if they were equal in strength.

Sorry, I should've explained that better. What I meant by "equal" is that the heroes and the opposition are on the same playing field throughout. Before, you mentioned the idea of trotting around, invincible, trashing everyone in your path. What I was saying was that, even if our heroes and heroines are as extraordinary as we suggest, this "invincibility" wouldn't be the case because the opposition is extraordinary as well. Thus, they're equal in that they're both above the average, and you wouldn't be trolling around slaying a bunch of inferior opponents.

Furthermore, I think Jimmy's right about the relevancy and meaning of levels and such. They actually do seem to make sense in FF. It would seem to make sense that you can hack a low level monster or soldier down in an instance, while certain bosses, in turn, can almost finish you in one blow.

I guess it's just that I always used to think that the characters withstanding bullet shots, elemental attacks, and hacks was all just a gameplay aspect, and that they'd actually be blocking these things if it were an actual FMV in the story or something. But now all these things suggest otherwise, and it would seem that they actually do have extraordinary tolerance for things.

 

[King Sean]

Sooo, a couple topics recently have got me thinking about this question. Just what or how much are these FF characters supposed to be able to endure?

I used to think of things like getting shot with bullets or hacked a few times as an obvious gameplay-only factor (like with most games), but I'm not so sure...

Examples:
-
In VII, I recall Barret getting shot a few times by Dene following the fight, and he just kind of took it.

AC opened up with Cloud getting capped in the face by one of whatever-their-names are, and he only loses his goggles. A lot of people thought this silly, but now I wonder if not?

Crisis Core had Angeal

Spoiler

taking a Fira to the face by Genesis (even if it was a training simulation, Genesis still gets cut by Sephiroth later in that fight)

Also in Crisis Core, the ending

Spoiler

had Zack getting canned by Soldiers, but it took relentless barrages before he dropped.

In VIII, there's the opening scene between Seifer and Squall. When they cut each other, they were left with gashes, but should that have been worse if they were "normal"?

Also in VIII, I seem to recall a few battles of the Garden

Spoiler

War, in which someone would get hacked at or shot a few times and remain standing.

-

Most of the other later installments, sans XII, didn't really mess with fights in cut scenes or fmvs, but I could be missing some examples.

So, are the thresholds of our battling FF characters supposed to actually extend beyond that of the average joe? Is that another factor of their "extraordinary" statures? I'm sure it fluctuates between games, but I'm wondering in general.

I am guessing what's in bold is what is true.

I am guessing that some of the FF characters are supposed to be stronger than real life humans. They have an endurance that is waay beyond that of a normal human. The series is called Final Fantasy to show that the things that happen in the games are a fantasy. They could not happen in real life. The things are exaggerated by different levels in the many different games.