Final Fantasy X or XII

[Sheechiibii]

I'm used to having my opinions ignored. Pay it no mind. Haters gonna hate~



I could list dozens of characters that are EXACTLY the same as the cast in Final Fantasy X, and could make direct comparisons to the storyline (or what passes for it) and battle system. FFX IS mediocre and average, because it stays within the confines of the genre. It does nothing new, nothing exciting, and nothing at all that is even remotely original. Does this make it a BAD game? No. Does it make it a game that is unworthy of praise? Yes. How can you praise that which has already been done millions of times over? What makes it worthy of praise?

ORIGINALITY is what is praiseworthy. FFXII strives for originality. Therefore it is praiseworthy. FFX does not attempt to distinguish itself from the masses, and therefore it deserves to be forgotten with the rest of them. Outside of personal preference, looking at FFXII in an objective light, I have yet to see a single real criticism for it. I have yet to see why FFXII is such a bad game. It corrects the mistakes made by the majority of JRPGs - the retarded angsty drama which always controls the direction of the story being the biggest example - and those that it doesn't correct it cannot be criticised for any more than any other game which makes the same mistakes. All I ever hear is "this is boring" or "this is not as good" when in reality it is actually "this is different from your standard Final Fantasy game, and therefore not to my personal taste" and nothing else.

I suppose I find it disheartening that people are so close-minded to the change FFXII represents. FFX was, in every way, a step backwards.

I read your post I did disagree with most of it, but I can see where you're coming from with some of your points. At the end of the day it all depends what you prefer in a game. XII did not have the emotion or character-based storyline, instead it had something that was much more realistic in its origin, it was about the world they were in, not the characters themselves. But even then, it was not the whole world, just a small piece of it. It makes saving the world mean very little when you know it's just a pebble in an ocean. And since the characters were not the main focus, beating the game left a sort of...empty feeling. Nothing emotional or connecting. I would actually say that there are more games like XII than X, because I loved X and have never played another game like it, I have played games like XII.

I don't hate XII, not at all. And I agree that it does get far more hate than it deserves. I've never understood why, I loved the battle system, and though leveling up wasn't as good as X, I still didn't dislike it. I found the game pretty boring compared to the previous games though, and that's just personal opinion. You can't tell someone they were wrong to find a game boring, if that's what the game was like for them then that's just the way it is. And saying that X doesn't warrent praise is just wrong, if many people like a game then it is worthy of the praise it gets, just because some people dislike it doesn't mean it's unworthy.

I agree that XII has more originality in terms of it's battle structure and world map (which was absolutely amazing and certainly beats X) but that's where the originality ends, it's story is not more original than X, neither are its characters. If you can name so many games with the same story was X then go ahead and name them, because I can't think of a single one.

I mean, you say that XII's villain was better because he had a real story to becoming evil, but X was far better with Seymour and his past. He has far more reason to be evil than Vaine, he had a much more tragic past, Vaine was just a selfish moron. And he didn't even inspire hate drom the player, I mean, at least in X I really wanted to kill Seymour, in XII I didn't really care...

Xx..xX

 

[Martel]

But even then, it was not the whole world, just a small piece of it. It makes saving the world mean very little when you know it's just a pebble in an ocean.

It wasn't about SAVING the world, it was about CHANGING it; FFXII was more a story about doing what you realistically could to make life better for the people around you, not saving the entire planet just so you and your lover could live happily ever after. That was, in my opinion, the whole appeal, and one of the reasons I get a little confused: surely FFXII, which lacks the selfish love plot, is a much more selfless, and therefore more appealing, storyline? Ultimately, it IS all just a pebble in the ocean: it's one particular moment in time. Unlike FFX, FFXII acknowledged that.

And since the characters were not the main focus, beating the game left a sort of...empty feeling. Nothing emotional or connecting. I would actually say that there are more games like XII than X, because I loved X and have never played another game like it, I have played games like XII.

I can't agree with that; there was plenty of emotion to be had in FFXII, if you knew where to look. The power struggles that went on were more than sufficiently emotional; perhaps even more so, for Ashe at least genuinely cared about her people, and was powerless to do anything about it. Retarded angsty teenage drama isn't the only source of emotion for JRPGs.

You've never played another game like FFX? Seriously? FFX is a cookie-cutter "save the world" style turn-based JRPG, it's absolutely nothing special at all. Dozens upon dozens of games have exactly the same premise.

I don't hate XII, not at all. And I agree that it does get far more hate than it deserves. I've never understood why, I loved the battle system, and though leveling up wasn't as good as X, I still didn't dislike it. I found the game pretty boring compared to the previous games though, and that's just personal opinion. You can't tell someone they were wrong to find a game boring, if that's what the game was like for them then that's just the way it is. And saying that X doesn't warrent praise is just wrong, if many people like a game then it is worthy of the praise it gets, just because some people dislike it doesn't mean it's unworthy.

That the game is not worthy of praise is MY personal opinion, and you have no more right to tell me I am wrong for thinking that than I do to tell you are wrong for not thinking that way. Besides that, I did not, at any point, tell people they were wrong for their own personal opinions regarding FFX. Kindly do not put words into my mouth.

I agree that XII has more originality in terms of it's battle structure and world map (which was absolutely amazing and certainly beats X) but that's where the originality ends, it's story is not more original than X, neither are its characters. If you can name so many games with the same story was X then go ahead and name them, because I can't think of a single one.

I disagree; FFXII had a far more original cast than FFX, if only because their primary concern were not their petty and pathetic emotions. They had actual goals as individuals, rather than just the standard excuse of tagging along with the protagonist because they felt like it. Individuality and maturity is what makes XII's cast better than X's, which is just your usual line up of stereotypical moody teens and exasperated adults travelling with them to make sure they don't destroy the world instead of save it.

FFVII, VIII, IX and X are practically identical in terms of storyline. World is in jeopardy, boy meets girl, boy falls in love with girl, world in jeopardy becomes a secondary concern and is totally eclipsed by this newfound love, which is poorly handled and mind-numbingly tedious. I don't see how this is a good thing, it makes the story both inconsisent and ridiculous. One might argue that this is the point of a JRPG, but I suppose it all comes down to your personal standards. For me, I'd played through FFX's story too many times before under different names and with a vastly superior cast much of the time to see it as anything other than average. No originality, no differentiation, just yet one more Square Enix JRPG in a long line of them.

I mean, you say that XII's villain was better because he had a real story to becoming evil, but X was far better with Seymour and his past. He has far more reason to be evil than Vaine, he had a much more tragic past, Vaine was just a selfish moron. And he didn't even inspire hate drom the player, I mean, at least in X I really wanted to kill Seymour, in XII I didn't really care...

That Vayne did not inspire hatred is precisely what makes him such a brilliant antagonist: he wasn't inherently evil. As I said, I find the stereotypical good vs. evil polarization boring. Good and evil aren't absolutes; they're perspectives. You could very easily change your perspective to make Vayne the protagonist: he was in a position of power, he took the steps he thought necessary to bring order to the world. He did what he thought was right. He strayed from the path of stereotypical morality, but that was a choice he made, he had reasons, you could see those reasons, and if you thought about it, you could perhaps even agree with him.

He was the antagonist purely because you were fighting against him, and for no other reason. It's far, far more interesting to have an antagonist like that in a game, and it encourages the player to take a more personal investment in the game, to stop and think: the characters you are controlling, are they really doing the right thing? Do you agree with their motives? On the one hand, there is oppression, but there is always oppression. There is now order and stability. You're effectively playing as rebels who are upsetting this stability. Is the cause sufficient to justify this? The story of FFXII unfolds in such a way that it covers both sides of the coin and, whilst you can't change the outcome, it does mean that you have more to think about, other than yet more retarded angsty drama.

In every other FF game, there is an element of certainty, because it's just so painfully obvious that you're supposed to feel nothing for the antagonists other than hatred that they don't bother to do anything with them other than make them do things you'll hate them for. In FFXII, that was still present to a degree, but the reasons behind it were much, much clearer, and presented in such a manner that you could see it in a different light if you bothered to think about it. Not only that, but the goal of the antagonist and the protagonists were the same, they just went about it in different manners. Seymour is very, very shallow indeed when compared to the complexity of Vayne.

 

[HolyDragoon]

I must say this is the best discussion on FFXII I've seen. Tootori really hit the nail on the head a few posts ago, and I don't say that lightly. I usually hold my tongue (fingers?) when I read her posts.

While FFXII may not have the best pacing, the story it portrays is quite a pleasing departure in the series and be coupled with an innovative battle system that is evolution of Final Fantasy XI. However, if I was to fault the systems of XII, it would be for creating an experience quite similar to XI, making it offline, then adding gambits and a license board. Another topic, another day perhaps.

While I do enjoy FFX's story for everything it was, (breaking the world from an endless cycle). I appreciate FFXII for a much more refined story that is not defined by it's characters. If they had shifted the development of the characters ever so slightly (aka lead character as basch/fran/balthier), it would probably have overthrown FF IV as my favourite story.

XII doesn't get the respect it deserves.

 

[Sheechiibii]

That the game is not worthy of praise is MY personal opinion, and you have no more right to tell me I am wrong for thinking that than I do to tell you are wrong for not thinking that way. Besides that, I did not, at any point, tell people they were wrong for their own personal opinions regarding FFX. Kindly do not put words into my mouth.

I disagree; FFXII had a far more original cast than FFX, if only because their primary concern were not their petty and pathetic emotions. They had actual goals as individuals, rather than just the standard excuse of tagging along with the protagonist because they felt like it. Individuality and maturity is what makes XII's cast better than X's, which is just your usual line up of stereotypical moody teens and exasperated adults travelling with them to make sure they don't destroy the world instead of save it.

FFVII, VIII, IX and X are practically identical in terms of storyline. World is in jeopardy, boy meets girl, boy falls in love with girl, world in jeopardy becomes a secondary concern and is totally eclipsed by this newfound love, which is poorly handled and mind-numbingly tedious. I don't see how this is a good thing, it makes the story both inconsisent and ridiculous. One might argue that this is the point of a JRPG, but I suppose it all comes down to your personal standards. For me, I'd played through FFX's story too many times before under different names and with a vastly superior cast much of the time to see it as anything other than average. No originality, no differentiation, just yet one more Square Enix JRPG in a long line of them.


That Vayne did not inspire hatred is precisely what makes him such a brilliant antagonist: he wasn't inherently evil. As I said, I find the stereotypical good vs. evil polarization boring. Good and evil aren't absolutes; they're perspectives. You could very easily change your perspective to make Vayne the protagonist: he was in a position of power, he took the steps he thought necessary to bring order to the world. He did what he thought was right. He strayed from the path of stereotypical morality, but that was a choice he made, he had reasons, you could see those reasons, and if you thought about it, you could perhaps even agree with him.

He was the antagonist purely because you were fighting against him, and for no other reason. It's far, far more interesting to have an antagonist like that in a game, and it encourages the player to take a more personal investment in the game, to stop and think: the characters you are controlling, are they really doing the right thing? Do you agree with their motives? On the one hand, there is oppression, but there is always oppression. There is now order and stability. You're effectively playing as rebels who are upsetting this stability. Is the cause sufficient to justify this? The story of FFXII unfolds in such a way that it covers both sides of the coin and, whilst you can't change the outcome, it does mean that you have more to think about, other than yet more retarded angsty drama.

In every other FF game, there is an element of certainty, because it's just so painfully obvious that you're supposed to feel nothing for the antagonists other than hatred that they don't bother to do anything with them other than make them do things you'll hate them for. In FFXII, that was still present to a degree, but the reasons behind it were much, much clearer, and presented in such a manner that you could see it in a different light if you bothered to think about it. Not only that, but the goal of the antagonist and the protagonists were the same, they just went about it in different manners. Seymour is very, very shallow indeed when compared to the complexity of Vayne.

X was nothing like "saving the entire planet just so you and your lover could live hapilly ever after" they saved the world to stop the cycle of death and destruction that Sin brought and if you remember, the ending does not allow for them to live happily ever after, in fact it's a tragic end, not a happy fairytale. They save the world, but there is a price to pay.

Having to look for emotion in obscure places is not what I want from a game, I like a story where I can connect with the characters and their resolve. In XII I couldn't do that and from what I've seen not a lot of others could either. It just wasn't a game that invested emotionally which did make it less appealing to the people who want this in a game.

I am not putting words into your mouth. "Does it make it a game unworthy of praise? Yes." These are your words, you spoke them like fact when they are your opinion. Praise is not something you can judge alone, if many people like it and praise it, then how can you say - as fact - that it is unworthy?

Yes, some of the cast were original. I've never seen a character as flat and dull as Vaan, whose only personality trait is wanting to be a sky pirate. Penelo was a classic happy-go-lucky girl the type you see in lots of games. Basche was the strong warrior type and Ashe was just a normal protagonist, determinbed to do right by her people with not much else to her character. They're original because there is nothing in them.

If anything the only game you describe here "World is in jeopardy, boy meets girl, boy falls in love with girl, world in jeopardy becomes a secondary concern and is totally eclipsed by this newfound love" is VIII.

VII was not a love story, it was about struggling with who you are as a person, coming to terms with your reality and somehow getting caught up in a bigger picture when really all you wanted to do was find your place in the world.

IX was a classic princess falls for thief story. The focus of the story was, again, on coming to terms with who you are. Garnet had to struggle with the truth that her mother had gone off the rails, she had to deal with becoming queen and finding out she was not born a princess. Zidane had to battle with being an alien essentually. Love was a very small part of IX. It didn't even come to really exist until much later in the game.

X's story is about the world of Spira and the Summoners and the corruption of the Temples and the teachings. The story of the Faith, the summoning, Zanarkand, is a pretty large part of the story. Finding out all the twists and turns of the people of Spira, the Guado and the Al Bhed, and how the world has become dependant on a rutial of sacrifice. Then it also focuses on Yuna's story, yes she falls for Tidus, but that's not until at leats half way through and it does not derail the plot whatsoever. She is still determined to finish her pilgramage and she still does it with the strength of character she had at the begining. Then there's Tidus, fighting to fit in a world he doesn't know, finding out one thing after another about who he is, about his father, about this twisted world he is stuck in and finally, about the fate that will befall him if he chooses to save this world that's not even his. The love story changes nothing except to make the end that much more bittersweet.

XII's story is original because instead of dealing with personal battles and the characters themselves all you deal with is essentually gaining control of your empire. It's got nothing to it in comparison to the games pas, so in a way you're right about it being original. But original is not always a good thing, especially not when it makes a game boring for so many people.

Seymour was no more inherently evil than Vayne. And his back story was much easier to empathise with. Even Sin is not entirely evil. None of the Final Fantasy games have villains who are entirely evil. What makes a difference though is that you still grow to hate them because of their actions, regardless whether you understand why they are the way they are. Vayne does not inspire hatred because the game doesn't give you anything to hate.

If anything making the antagonist not a real antagonist discourages personal investment. If a game gives you a character and shows you their personality and their dreams and their back story and then has the villain kill them, it makes you angry and it makes you want to defeat the villain. Or if it shows a villain destroy an entire town and kill many people, it makes you want to defeat them. You know their back story and you know why they are like that, but without them actually doig bad things there's no reason to want to kill them. If a game gives you characters you have no reason to care about, a villain who does essentually nothing wrong and a world where whatever you do nothing is really changed, why would it make you want to win? It doesn't, it makes you not care.

Xx..xX

 

[SLTE]

I'll agree with what was originally the majority (looks debatable now) and go with X. I liked XII a great deal more than some of my friends - the battle system was a breath of fresh air, and the size of the world pulled me in - but it's too damn long. I was so bored of it by the end.

X, though? Perfect length. The story was well-paced, and there were just enough emotional connections to make you really care about the characters. I could see the big plot twist coming a mile away, but I still enjoyed it because the players involved were emotionally satisfying.

Which is another of saying that I found XII's characters drab and uninteresting, I suppose. Take it as you wish.

I also place some blame on XII for beginning a trend of overly-florid language in many of the series' installments as a whole. XII wasn't tooooooo bad, I guess, but it seems like every medieval-based game since then - particularly the remakes - sound like opaque Shakespearean knockoffs. I can't stand the script for the FFT remake, it drives me crazy compared to the original.

I think I went off track there. Anyway. X good, XII not as good but still good.

 

[Squid]

I think FFX has a better story, but FFXII's gameplay is way more fun and exciting. I recently tried to replay X and nearly died of boredom, it's so meh and the characters... oh my god I want to punch Tidus in his stupid face, also the voice actors suck arse.

People say FFXII has bad characters but I actually don't think that is the case, the only character you could really say that about is Vaan, the rest I find to be quite enjoyable. I find FFX's characters to be worse.

I say go FFXII.

 

[Martel]

X was nothing like "saving the entire planet just so you and your lover could live hapilly ever after" they saved the world to stop the cycle of death and destruction that Sin brought and if you remember, the ending does not allow for them to live happily ever after, in fact it's a tragic end, not a happy fairytale. They save the world, but there is a price to pay.

You do realise you just described the "save the world, live happily ever after" scenario, right?
The ending is presented very much in that happily ever after style, even if it doesn't end with the two main characters having that sappy crappy happy couple's ending FF prides itself on. It didn't seem particularly tragic to me.

Having to look for emotion in obscure places is not what I want from a game, I like a story where I can connect with the characters and their resolve. In XII I couldn't do that and from what I've seen not a lot of others could either. It just wasn't a game that invested emotionally which did make it less appealing to the people who want this in a game.

Well, if you don't like looking for emotion in obscure places, obviously you're not going to like FFXII, which is a more practical and mature game. Emotions in FFXII are secondary. That doesn't mean it's a bad or inferior style of storytelling, just not to your personal preference.

I am not putting words into your mouth. "Does it make it a game unworthy of praise? Yes." These are your words, you spoke them like fact when they are your opinion. Praise is not something you can judge alone, if many people like it and praise it, then how can you say - as fact - that it is unworthy?

Yes, you bloody well are. I'm not going to add "in my opinion" at the end of every sentence for your convenience. If you interpret my opinion in that way, this is not my problem, and I am telling you now that you are mistaken in assuming I was saying my opinion is fact, for I was saying nothing of the sort. You are mistaken. I have very a direct way of speaking, and I am not about to change that, for you or anyone else. I have not said that my opinion is fact at any stage. End of story.

Also, I can judge as I see fit, the same as anyone else. If I choose to believe that all the praise sent FFX's way is unwarranted, that is my business. I have already explained why I see it as unworthy of praise, so I'm not going to repeat myself. Nor am I going to dignify any more "you're saying your opinion is fact" accusations with a response. I'm not going to argue a pointless line of conversation with you. You've thrown the accusation at me, I have explained my way of speaking and thinking. Kindly let it lie; I've had this discussion elsewhere far too many times before.

Yes, some of the cast were original. I've never seen a character as flat and dull as Vaan, whose only personality trait is wanting to be a sky pirate. Penelo was a classic happy-go-lucky girl the type you see in lots of games. Basche was the strong warrior type and Ashe was just a normal protagonist, determinbed to do right by her people with not much else to her character. They're original because there is nothing in them.

Vaan was no worse than Tidus, your stereotypical happy-go-lucky shemale who ultimately had the character depth of a thimble. Vaan was very difficult to like, but I don't think you can blame the game for that: he was there at fan demand. You want to moan about that, blame the fanbase for making the game worse than what it would have been if Basch had been the main character, as they had intended. Penelo was hardly as happy-go-lucky as Rikku was, although I will admit that she is the closest thing that the game had that thoroughly annoying archetype, either.

The characters are original because there is more to them than their petty and pathetic emotions, the same set of emotions you see in EVERY Final Fantasy character. They actually THINK about the world around them. I'm afraid I don't see a lack of emotion as anything other than a positive; emotion destroys JRPG storylines when it is focused on too much, and FF always does just that: any story it has goes right out the window. I find it boring. Others might not. Whatever floats your boat, I suppose.

Ultimately I suppose it comes down to your interpretation. I found more in XII than I did in X, for the reasons I have listed.

If anything the only game you describe here "World is in jeopardy, boy meets girl, boy falls in love with girl, world in jeopardy becomes a secondary concern and is totally eclipsed by this newfound love" is VIII.

VII was not a love story, it was about struggling with who you are as a person, coming to terms with your reality and somehow getting caught up in a bigger picture when really all you wanted to do was find your place in the world.

IX was a classic princess falls for thief story. The focus of the story was, again, on coming to terms with who you are. Garnet had to struggle with the truth that her mother had gone off the rails, she had to deal with becoming queen and finding out she was not born a princess. Zidane had to battle with being an alien essentually. Love was a very small part of IX. It didn't even come to really exist until much later in the game.

X's story is about the world of Spira and the Summoners and the corruption of the Temples and the teachings. The story of the Faith, the summoning, Zanarkand, is a pretty large part of the story. Finding out all the twists and turns of the people of Spira, the Guado and the Al Bhed, and how the world has become dependant on a rutial of sacrifice. Then it also focuses on Yuna's story, yes she falls for Tidus, but that's not until at leats half way through and it does not derail the plot whatsoever. She is still determined to finish her pilgramage and she still does it with the strength of character she had at the begining. Then there's Tidus, fighting to fit in a world he doesn't know, finding out one thing after another about who he is, about his father, about this twisted world he is stuck in and finally, about the fate that will befall him if he chooses to save this world that's not even his. The love story changes nothing except to make the end that much more bittersweet.

XII's story is original because instead of dealing with personal battles and the characters themselves all you deal with is essentually gaining control of your empire. It's got nothing to it in comparison to the games pas, so in a way you're right about it being original. But original is not always a good thing, especially not when it makes a game boring for so many people.

I disagree with your interpretations of the stories; you give them far more credit than they are actually due. I see them all as ultimately the same, because there are identifiable patterns in the FF games that make them all extremely samey and predictable...at least until XII came along, with its radically different approach to the story and cast. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point, because I suspect we will get absolutely nowhere very quickly.

Although I will concede that originality is not always a good thing...but only for personal preference. Objectively, originality is always a good thing, especially in the industry today, where we get nothing but the same game over and over from certain developers and series I could name...I would include FF amongst those series, but FF isn't as bad as others, I will admit. FFXII clearly wasn't for everyone, and its originality was a definite factor. That can make it bad for individuals, but it doesn't make it a bad game.

Seymour was no more inherently evil than Vayne. And his back story was much easier to empathise with. Even Sin is not entirely evil. None of the Final Fantasy games have villains who are entirely evil. What makes a difference though is that you still grow to hate them because of their actions, regardless whether you understand why they are the way they are. Vayne does not inspire hatred because the game doesn't give you anything to hate.

If anything making the antagonist not a real antagonist discourages personal investment. If a game gives you a character and shows you their personality and their dreams and their back story and then has the villain kill them, it makes you angry and it makes you want to defeat the villain. Or if it shows a villain destroy an entire town and kill many people, it makes you want to defeat them. You know their back story and you know why they are like that, but without them actually doig bad things there's no reason to want to kill them. If a game gives you characters you have no reason to care about, a villain who does essentually nothing wrong and a world where whatever you do nothing is really changed, why would it make you want to win? It doesn't, it makes you not care.

There is the key thing - empathy. It all comes down to personal preference. I don't like characters I can empathise with; that makes them predictable. It's a double-edged sword. I would argue that not being able to empathise with a character makes them more interesting, because it makes them more unpredictable, and being bored in a game because I know exactly how it's going to turn out is not my idea of fun. The game gives you plenty to hate, if you know where to look, and on a grander scale, since we're dealing with kingdoms and governments, not individual people. You have already admitted that you don't like looking for things like that so, again, it's personal preference. I prefer a little more subtlty in my games than what FFX provided.

Empathising with a character, particularly a villain, makes them a boring villain. I don't want to empathise with characters' emotions which I find to be hindrances to the story, I want to be able to understand their thinking. I want more depth than just "he's evil, he must die!" which is what every villain in Final Fantasy except Vayne boils down to. It's a bit difficult to understand the thinking of a giant whale hell bent on destruction, or a character inside it who has had barely any character development whatsoever. Seymour is all too easy to empathise with, because he has a nihilistic messiah complex. Been there, done that, lacked the money to purchase a t-shirt.

 

[Sheechiibii]

@tootoria: lets just agree to disagree. It all comes down to personal taste. I didn't dislike XII, I just prefer X. They're quite different games in terms of story, gameplay, characters, and it just depends what you like really. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, it was not meant. I probably wasn't the best person to try and debate with you about it, since I do like XII, but I didn't want your long post to go unresponded

Xx..xX

 

[Platinum_Lies]

You do realise you just described the "save the world, live happily ever after" scenario, right?
The ending is presented very much in that happily ever after style, even if it doesn't end with the two main characters having that sappy crappy happy couple's ending FF prides itself on. It didn't seem particularly tragic to me.

Spoiler

Hmmmm... considering FFX doesn't end completely happy within its own narrative and even FFX-2 has the chance that it still doesn't end up as you say, someone wasn't obviously paying attention. For many it was the bittersweet nature of FFX's ending that has made FFX the classic game and one of the most beloved Final Fantasy games there is.

Well, if you don't like looking for emotion in obscure places, obviously you're not going to like FFXII, which is a more practical and mature game. Emotions in FFXII are secondary. That doesn't mean it's a bad or inferior style of storytelling, just not to your personal preference.

Nothing wrong with the preference line but... FFXII is not more mature than Final Fantasy X. Different style and focus, sure but that doesn't make it any more mature. Why do supporters of FFXII use this line so much?

Vaan was no worse than Tidus, your stereotypical happy-go-lucky shemale who ultimately had the character depth of a thimble. Vaan was very difficult to like, but I don't think you can blame the game for that: he was there at fan demand. You want to moan about that, blame the fanbase for making the game worse than what it would have been if Basch had been the main character, as they had intended. Penelo was hardly as happy-go-lucky as Rikku was, although I will admit that she is the closest thing that the game had that thoroughly annoying archetype, either.

Your bias is showing... sorry but calling Tidus a happy go lucky shemale pretty much invalidates your argument since you completely drop rational discussion to try and come up with a rather immature one liner.

The characters are original because there is more to them than their petty and pathetic emotions, the same set of emotions you see in EVERY Final Fantasy character. They actually THINK about the world around them. I'm afraid I don't see a lack of emotion as anything other than a positive; emotion destroys JRPG storylines when it is focused on too much, and FF always does just that: any story it has goes right out the window. I find it boring. Others might not. Whatever floats your boat, I suppose.

Yeah.... um, Ashe is motivated by rage and revenge over losing her husband and kingdom. Vaan is motivated by rage and revenge over losing his brother (then changes his mind far too quickly and almost immediately believes in Baasch who he believed to be the killer for years might I add). Penelo is motivated by... I'm guessing love for Vaan. But there is almost nothing to her. Baash is motivated by loyalty and honour... okay I think we get the point. There is nothing special about FFXII's character motivations at all that make them as special and unique in the Final Fantasy world as you are trying to claim.

I disagree with your interpretations of the stories; you give them far more credit than they are actually due. I see them all as ultimately the same, because there are identifiable patterns in the FF games that make them all extremely samey and predictable...at least until XII came along, with its radically different approach to the story and cast. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point, because I suspect we will get absolutely nowhere very quickly.

Although I will concede that originality is not always a good thing...but only for personal preference. Objectively, originality is always a good thing, especially in the industry today, where we get nothing but the same game over and over from certain developers and series I could name...I would include FF amongst those series, but FF isn't as bad as others, I will admit. FFXII clearly wasn't for everyone, and its originality was a definite factor. That can make it bad for individuals, but it doesn't make it a bad game.

Aside from being a poorly told story filled with failed plotlines and massive plotholes... how exactly was FFXII any less predictable? And how the hell is it original? It practically screams Star Wars half the game! Empire versus Rebellion with a disgraced knight protecting a usurped princess... not very original at all. In fact it pretty much follows the standard pattern of many Final Fantasy and RPG games period...

There is the key thing - empathy. It all comes down to personal preference. I don't like characters I can empathise with; that makes them predictable. It's a double-edged sword. I would argue that not being able to empathise with a character makes them more interesting, because it makes them more unpredictable, and being bored in a game because I know exactly how it's going to turn out is not my idea of fun. The game gives you plenty to hate, if you know where to look, and on a grander scale, since we're dealing with kingdoms and governments, not individual people. You have already admitted that you don't like looking for things like that so, again, it's personal preference. I prefer a little more subtlty in my games than what FFX provided.

Empathising with a character, particularly a villain, makes them a boring villain. I don't want to empathise with characters' emotions which I find to be hindrances to the story, I want to be able to understand their thinking. I want more depth than just "he's evil, he must die!" which is what every villain in Final Fantasy except Vayne boils down to. It's a bit difficult to understand the thinking of a giant whale hell bent on destruction, or a character inside it who has had barely any character development whatsoever. Seymour is all too easy to empathise with, because he has a nihilistic messiah complex. Been there, done that, lacked the money to purchase a t-shirt.

FFXII isn't subtle... really wish people would stop trying to act like it is intellectually superior to other FF games or games in general when it isn't.

And really, did you play the other FF games at all, especially FFX?

Spoiler

Sin was a vessel and armour that is actually a former guardian that is slowly being driven insane... hence all the destruction. It was a side effect and not the actual goal. Which was part of the appeal of FFX, the primary "villain" wasn't seeking destruction at all. In fact Yevon didn't care at all about what was happening and the former guardian is forced to watch as it loses control.

There is something both emotionally and intellectually that such a villain operates from. You are acting as if being able to empathise with a character automatically erases any intellectual basis for their actions. Simply not true.

And for all this talk about FFXII being superior in these terms... Vayne is the perfect example of a bad villain and character overall.

Spoiler

He is essentially the same power hungry individual seen a thousand times except with the supposed stated goals of freeing humanity... except that when the people opposing him actually succeed in his supposed ultimate goals he really doesn't give a damn.

Intellectually FFXII completely failed to create a sound foundation for the villain to operate from. You can make assumptions that Vayne is simply another run of the mill power mad villain but there is just not much to really go off of in FFXII. There was a lack of coherency in what he said and how he acted and sadly... he was not on screen enough to make any reasonably founded deductions based on such inconsistency.

...

And as evidenced by a few areas here it is clear I would recommend FFX over FFXII. IN MY OPINION: story, characters, music, and even gameplay were all just vastly superior in FFX. FFXII was a distinct example of how NOT to make a Final Fantasy game.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

I'll spare you the long post and say that X plays like a Final Fantasy, XII plays like a wannabe MMO. If you want that, by all means play it. I didn't enjoy the battle system at all, the story isn't nearly as bad as people would have you believe. X's is better I think because you can actually sympathize with the characters, which I did not so much with XII.

Obviously both have their devout fans, and then there's the third group that really thinks you should just go replay FF7.

I would say the biggest choice you have to make is what sort of battle system you want. The stories are both typical Final Fantasy. Neither is original.

So do you want a wannabe MMO, or a turn based battle system? If the first XII, the second X. Simple.

 

[Tifa]

Since 99% of the posts in this thread will probably advocate FFX over FFXII, I'm going to go ahead and suggest FFXII instead and give it a fighting chance. They are two very different games, and you either fall into one camp, or the other. I have seen very few people who profess to equally liking both entries.

If you don't mind some tight linearity with gameplay heavily driven by the plot with a few puzzles and a (dull) minigame, by all means go for FFX. The battle system it offers is perhaps the most comprehensive version of turn-based battling there is. If however, you want a world that is significantly larger and more alive, with greater opportunities for exploration, an array of bustling cities and locales and a more up-to-date JRPG combat system with no random encounters, FFXII would be your best bet.

When it comes to story, a lot of people will prefer FFX because of its emotive story and stronger cast. If you fancy something fresh and different, without as much melodrama, FFXII offers a more mature style to storytelling with sophisticated dialogue that is well-written. The downside is would be an arguably weaker cast of characters and the story not being as ubiquitously dominating. Like I said though, FFXII offers a very different experience to FFX, especially to a core audience that is very used to the style of storytelling that previous Final Fantasies have offered.

To give FFXII a fighting chance, you should try it out first, THEN FFX. If I were to grasp at straws and guess, I would suggest that FFXII wouldn't be as poorly remembered by people had they have played it before FFX. So whenever they play FFXII, they would inevitably compare it to the previous game, and lament at all the missing things, like romance, tearful moments and the like.

I'd be one of those that likes both ^^ That being said, I do back up this post and recommend XII over X for the simple fact that it was gutsy enough to try something different. The gambit system is basically the same as the menu > magic > bolt 2 set up, except that you have more control over when and how your characters will do that. ^^

 

[Lord_Jaroh]

If you like XIII, play X. If you like a game that requires you to have the semblance of intelligence and maturity, play FFXII.

Sorry, I didn't find the characters, world or story interesting at all in FFX, and the gameplay was a resounding meh. At least most earlier FF's had exploration and such, FFX didn't even really have that. Far too linear for my taste.

FFXII in contrast is my second favourite Final Fantasy. It ranks up there with the character and development of FFIV and FFVI, and provides you an interesting world to explore, with many things to do within it. Are there things wrong with it? Sure, there's plenty of things I could see improved, but overall, the experience is well worth it.

 

[Nikkolas]

All the people saying "FFX plays like/feels like a Final Fantasy" must have played a different franchise than me.

Regardless of the game's quality, FFX is not at all like its predecessors. Despite being made by Japanese guys, FF has invoked pretty common Western fantasy elements like medieval European designs. FFX on the other hand was up to its eyeballs in Eastern beliefs and imagery.

When I played FFXII the first thing that struck me was how much it actually felt like an FF game compared to X. The dialogue, the way things looked, it was all a wonderful return to form.

But moving on, FFX vs. XII. I think they both have good parts.

FFX was a quest to SAVE THE WORLD like we have seen tme and time again. In that respect its linearity makes sense. (although you could choose to play blitzball at almost any time which didn't make sense)

But FFXII isn't about saving the world. It's a much more confined and personal journey. People might say FFXII is like Star Wars but it's only the most superficial level. Ashe and company are not the righteous rebels fighting the pure evil empire. They are the remnants of a dinky little kingdom that was swallowed up by a more powerful nation. You know, like has happened throughout human history.

With the fate of the world NOT hanging in the balance, you can feel free to explore. Oh god yes - no wods can express how great this is. I can spend hours just running from place to place in ivalice. It's all so rich, beautiful and alive that, more than any FF game in history, I was immersed to the point I felt like I was on an adventure.

Now FFXII's significantly more cerebral plot does have its hang-ups. I'll be the first one to jump on the party hate bandwagon. Fran in particular deserves my ire but even my favorite character in the party is pretty forgettable.

No, I played and loved FFXII because of The Empire. Vayne was shallow but Dr. Cid, Larsa, Gabranth, they were all extremely interesting and well-developed.

Larsa should have been a playable character dammit. Hell just make him the main character.

I will give FFXII points for Vaan as compared to Tidus though. When Vaan acts dumb people at least call him out on it. (see his asking Fran how old she is)
Whereas Tidus...well, he actaully sniffed Auron one time. he literaly bent over and started taking giant whiffs of him.

At this point the acceptable reaction for anyone there would ahve been to beat the living hell out of Tidus. Maybe break a limb, fracture his skull, God knows brain damage wouldn't even show with him.

But no, Tidus gets away with acting like the world's biggest spaz.

I also dislike the lack of dungeons in FFX. It's really just going from area to area. The only dungeon-like place is Via Purifico and the optional Omega Ruins.

At the end of the day I'm not sure which game I like more. They both have their ups and downs.

 

[kratoscar2008]

If you like a good history go get FFX, if you like a classic FF battle System go get X, if you like a different battle system go get XII, if you like political debates go get XII.

If you like a good RPG go get Both, your choice.

 

[OmniWrench 8000]

If you like a good history go get FFX, if you like a classic FF battle System go get X, if you like a different battle system go get XII, if you like political debates go get XII.

If you like a good RPG go get Both, your choice.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

So yeah, I agree with everything krotoscar said.

XII is also more free roam and very massive in land size, and not to mention a lot more detailed. But the battle system is very different. Basically all you have to do is run up to your enemies and let the Gambit system make all the attacks magic for you, which is not all that fun imo.

I personally prefer X, which it's literally turn-based, sort of like a mix between the first three FF games and the ATB system used from 4 to 9. At least that's what it appears to me.

And also FF X (and X-2) are the last to be produced by Hironobu Sakaguchi, he really didn't have involvement with FF XII, only mentioned as a Special Thanks in the credits. That's more trivia, but since he had a lot more involvement with X than XII, I think X turned out better because of him.

Overall, my vote goes to X, anyday.

 

[seddy-0]

i agree. FFX is the way to go.. better story in my opinion and its characters draws you in so much more than XII. they really put a lot of thought into how to play X out. XII does have a ton more side quests though and i like the battle system being able to avoid stronger monsters. but overall i am gonna say X so that's my vote

 

[kratoscar2008]

Took the words right out of my mouth.

So yeah, I agree with everything krotoscar said.

XII is also more free roam and very massive in land size, and not to mention a lot more detailed. But the battle system is very different. Basically all you have to do is run up to your enemies and let the Gambit system make all the attacks magic for you, which is not all that fun imo.

I personally prefer X, which it's literally turn-based, sort of like a mix between the first three FF games and the ATB system used from 4 to 9. At least that's what it appears to me.

And also FF X (and X-2) are the last to be produced by Hironobu Sakaguchi, he really didn't have involvement with FF XII, only mentioned as a Special Thanks in the credits. That's more trivia, but since he had a lot more involvement with X than XII, I think X turned out better because of him.

Overall, my vote goes to X, anyday.

I too prefer X in fact i got the International one and i will give it a go

Is good t know that you are playing FFV, that one is in my top 3 favorite Final fantasies .

Is a shame Sakaguchi left SQUARE when he is the reason they are what they are today and since he left the FF franchise began dying (12 being the exception).

 

[chrisburr]

This is an easy call for me, Id say X

X, it was one of my favorites, one of the best leveling systems of all time, a great cast of characters, large world of customization, ability to name Tidus and the Summons. It was really long too.

XII is good but not great, I consider it the weakest one of the series, cant change names, plus Vayne is the worst and most bland villain.

 

[Yatsumiko]

Final Fantasy X if you want a storyline, well thought out gameplay, and good time.

Final Fantasy XII if you want to free roam anywhere at any time (you can somewhat do this with X too, though), and enjoy politics. Also, little character development.

Both games are fun, but I would personally choose X.

 

[Hliðskjálf]

Go with 12

Mod edit: Kharnij
Hi, for future reference, refrain from posting one-liners like this, as it may be considered as spam. Try to elaborate your post a little. Thanks! =)