Greek letters at the Gold Saucer

[mothcorrupteth]

But I have not really studied the integration of this hypothesis in the game. For it to have any validity it would be necessary to know if this nomenclature was created/used by the Cetra, to begin with.

Yeah, I really can't speculate, myself. For me, Final Fantasy VII's story was done at the end of the first game. I watched Advent Children, but I never liked it, and I haven't played Dirge of Cerberus or Crisis Core or Before Crisis or any of that stuff. So there's a metric crap-ton of lore that I'm not brushed up on.

 

[Molosev]

I’m not sure about the precise percentages if we were to divide it up, but certainly all three of those things together led to the terrible events we’re discussing. The Lifestream should have been a pure force cleansing everything as it helped destroy Meteor, but instead it included those terrible particles of Jenova. I’d say that the actual number of particles of Jenova must have been relatively low otherwise the damage would have been far more severe, but it was still enough to wreak havoc on Midgar and pollute the Planet.

I too am not sure about the percentage But I'm not sure about the destruction of the Meteor either. (see my interpretation of the Meteor event)
I mean there was this white flash and then... We have no report from serious scientists What is sure is that it disapeared.

As for the naming of the disease. As you say, Geo = 'earth' and Stigma = indicator of disease (or 'mark'/'scar'). Geostigma essentially means the ‘scarring of the earth’, relating to the damage to the Planet’s spirit (Lifestream) by Jenova and Sephiroth. In a way, the Planet itself has the disease and it is expressed by the sickness of its inhabitants. That is one possible interpretation.

That's right, the original japanese version translates to "Planet Scar Syndrome" apparently.

But stigma also has another meaning in English, meaning something which might cause shame in the person or affect their reputation. On top of the illness, people with leprosy historically suffered the added stress of being made outcasts and to be called sinners who deserved their illnesses due to their 'immoral natures' and were being punished by God. Likewise, there was (or is still, amongst some people) a stigma surrounding AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases, particularly aimed at homosexual people. It’s not a very healthy thing for those who are sick to then deal with becoming a social outcast, but throughout history people have shunned people with particular illnesses.

It may be possible that Geostigma might carry connotations like this with it too. People do seem to be shunned when they get it by some people. Cloud was ashamed and tried to hide his Geostigma at first. Maybe the stigma surrounding Geostigma was due to people's fear of contagion, or maybe they were afraid that the person must have deserved it somehow (and thus would be unsavoury people).

It is a very relevant meaning, it seems to me. I have read somewhere that Yuffie was once accused of bringing the geostigma to Wutai. So she was kind of stigmatized in a way even if she was not affected by the disease but just coming from Midgar.

As for the naming of the disease. As you say, Geo = 'earth' and Stigma = indicator of disease (or 'mark'/'scar'). Geostigma essentially means the ‘scarring of the earth’, relating to the damage to the Planet’s spirit (Lifestream) by Jenova and Sephiroth. In a way, the Planet itself has the disease and it is expressed by the sickness of its inhabitants. That is one possible interpretation.

But stigma also has another meaning in English, meaning something which might cause shame in the person or affect their reputation. On top of the illness, people with leprosy historically suffered the added stress of being made outcasts and to be called sinners who deserved their illnesses due to their 'immoral natures' and were being punished by God. Likewise, there was (or is still, amongst some people) a stigma surrounding AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases, particularly aimed at homosexual people. It’s not a very healthy thing for those who are sick to then deal with becoming a social outcast, but throughout history people have shunned people with particular illnesses.

It may be possible that Geostigma might carry connotations like this with it too. People do seem to be shunned when they get it by some people. Cloud was ashamed and tried to hide his Geostigma at first. Maybe the stigma surrounding Geostigma was due to people's fear of contagion, or maybe they were afraid that the person must have deserved it somehow (and thus would be unsavoury people).

Plagues tend to hit cities the most (where the concentration of people is greater and trade networks, etc, lead directly to them). It is therefore not surprising that Midgar (by a long way the largest city in FFVII) was hit the hardest anyway. We might add to that the possible belief amongst inhabitants that Midgar deserved its punishment as it was a city of sin.

But on your point about the names of diseases, it truly varies from disease to disease and when the terms were coined. Ebola relates to the Ebola River in the Congo where the disease was discovered. The catch-all term ‘plague’ is (like many words we’re discussing lately) Greek in origin, filtered through Latin and French. It stems from the word plaga (meaning ‘blow’, ‘strike’ or ‘impact’). So when Athens suffered its devastating plague in 430 BC, it was struck with its illness (though loimos was the more common Greek name for a plague, so the etymology for our word plague I'm referring to is based on the feeling of having a plague attack you and your people beyond your control). The Athenian plague hit Athens while it was fighting Sparta during the Peloponnesian War, so naturally there were some citizens who believed that the gods were punishing Athens and favoured Sparta instead.

Epilepsy, similarly, has Greek roots (meaning to be ‘seized upon’) and was in antiquity commonly called the 'sacred disease' as it was once believed that Gods possessed those who suffered from it. This is why we call them seizures. People were believed to be seized by divine beings and forced to shake uncontrollably and foam at the mouth, etc.

So yeah, these particular terms seem to be related to concepts outside of the patient themselves. In this case rather than describing the experience of the patient or the symptoms, these diseases relate to the perceived external source of the illness (the location they are discovered, a verb describing the action the gods must have taken in order to punish people, and so on).

But the names of other diseases will be different and do relate to the internal state of the patient themselves or their visible symptoms (leprosy falls under this category as that relates to peeling, scabby skin - again, Greek origin), rather than their external origins. I’m not an expert on medicine by any means though. I'm just trying my best to answer your question.

I think that Geostigma probably fits in with the external origins category of disease names. The name doesn't appear to describe what is visible on the patient (though a form of mark or scarring is present, it isn't 'earthly' in appearance in my view). Instead the term possibly relates to the origins of the illness as being due to the infected Lifestream (the very life-force of the Planet itself) which can be much like a scar. Or the disease relates to the tainted earth scarring people.

Thank you very much for this thorough analysis . I agree that the external origin probably gave its name to the disease.
I also note that the name gives no indication of Jenova's involvement in the infection. The people that named the disease were probably not aware of this involvement. I think it is Vincent that tells Cloud (and the spectator) that the Sephiroth gene is causing it all, but I do not know from where he gets this information.

Yeah, I really can't speculate, myself. For me, Final Fantasy VII's story was done at the end of the first game. I watched Advent Children, but I never liked it, and I haven't played Dirge of Cerberus or Crisis Core or Before Crisis or any of that stuff. So there's a metric crap-ton of lore that I'm not brushed up on.

I agree that Final Fantasy VII (original) was directed as a complete work. I do not think the prequels and sequels were planned in advance, they are probably the result of success. By cons I think that the game's background story is much broader than what can be seen in the game and this is what allowed consistent developments thereafter (It must have been tweaked on some occasions). I did not play these other games but watched the videos carefully.

To return to the notation of the Eras, to my last hypothesis in particular and certainly in order to make the scenario of the game stick to it. I wonder if the story of the attack on Cetra by Jenova (2000 years ago) and told by Ifalna would not be in fact a tale inspired by the story of what happened on the previous planet(s) at the end of the cycle. You can feel the traces of a cycle at different times of the adventure commencing with the first and last images of the game showing the same Aerith's face enlightened in green. After all, if we consider that the Lifestream feels a need to migrate from planet to planet (Mother (Jenova) == Mother earth/mother nature ?) and that its children have a tendency to want to settle, it seems necessary to invoke a kind of "Chaos" at a given moment in order to make them all enter the ship. At the time of Final Fantasy VII the same kind of event would occur (prophecy), same causes, same consequences. The Northern Crater could be the trace of the arrival of the vessel (Omega).

I wonder what were the last words (before stopping communication) that the planet said to the Cetra who had settled down, perhaps: "Do as you wish. I'm going to starve and probably die but... that's all right ! Farewell my children." And then to herself: "I will always be able to gather you all when the time has come and continue my journney onto the cosmos."

At the end of Dirge of Cerberus I think we can understand that the earthly life is saved by Chaos. I think that it's a very strange ecological message to conclude the entire story.
But we know that Chaos was controlled by/trapped inside Vincent (which shouldn't be), maybe making it unable to fulfill its destiny (the real Chaos never woke up in that cave). Hence probably the need for the Lifestream to use other means. Why not by cynically manipulating weak modern Cetras (Cloud and Co) in order to make them trigger the needed apocalypse.

"Greek letters at the Gold Saucer", that would make a nice title for a noire genre detective story

 

[Dionysos]

I've got another hypotesis much more controversial. An Era (2000 years) could corespond to the duration of a migration (the time that should be spent on each planet).
Of course that would make Cetra the people of Jenova... Omega would then be the vessel for migration, it would have been named after the final destination, perhaps the promised land.
But I have not really studied the integration of this hypothesis in the game. For it to have any validity it would be necessary to know if this nomenclature was created/used by the Cetra, to begin with.

This is something I am unsure of.

The other Weapons were formed by the Planet in response to the attack of Jenova. The Cetra were certainly aware of them, as Ifalna informs Gast of their existence. Shinra was also aware of them as Hojo states he previously didn’t believe the myths when he first encounters them at the North Crater just before Sephiroth summons Meteor. So it seems that both the Cetra and modern humans knew of them (possibly via the Cetran oral history provided by Ifalna, Cetran texts on recovered tablets, or the Cosmo Canyon scholars).

Their nomenclature though? That’s not clear. Some are named after gemstones matching the colour of their appearance (Sapphire, Emerald, Diamond, Ruby, Jade). Others mark maybe their strength levels (Ultimate). Omega is the only one named after a Greek letter. The descriptive names could be scientific names applied by Shinra, or they could be direct translations of simple descriptive names applied to them by the Cetra. Giving some of them gemstone names might be from the mind of an ancient civilisation rather than from scientists, but scientists aren’t beyond that sort of thing and I’m sure the developers never suspected we’d tease these details out. I’m glad we are though!

I would maintain that it is unlikely that the Cetra arrived with Jenova though, as Jenova was certainly their adversary and a newcomer to the Planet relative to the Cetra. Unless Ifalna and the Cosmo Canyon scholars misinterpreted what really happened over the course of two thousand years, which isn’t impossible, but there’s nothing indicating that this is the case in the game.

I too am not sure about the percentage But I'm not sure about the destruction of the Meteor either. (see my interpretation of the Meteor event)
I mean there was this white flash and then... We have no report from serious scientists What is sure is that it disapeared.

I see what you mean in that we don’t see Meteor literally disintegrate. All we see is the Lifestream rise up to meet it and stop it from destroying the Planet, but every source talking about the game discusses the Meteor as being destroyed at that point. It's assumed, but not seen.

I think it is an interesting theory that Jenova rode the Lifestream and hopped onto the Meteor and flew off somewhere else, but if she did that then nobody else noticed it. Unless the blinding flash meant it was undetected by anybody.

But there is perhaps room for new interpretations there. We know nothing about the unorthodox meteor-based method of space travel that Jenova uses anyway. Square Enix appears to have drawn from FFV in that respect, as people use meteors to travel between worlds in that game. FFV's meteors contain doors through which the pilot can access the hollowed-out interior of the meteor, then there are magical pads and people can pilot them (though it is unclear how this works exactly). Most FFV players just accept this method of travel without questioning how peculiar it is, and I have always found it curious not only that Jenova uses a similar method in FFVII but also that a meteor is the very thing which the Planet’s Black Materia super-weapon summons...

Thank you very much for this thorough analysis . I agree that the external origin probably gave its name to the disease.
I also note that the name gives no indication of Jenova's involvement in the infection. The people that named the disease were probably not aware of this involvement. I think it is Vincent that tells Cloud (and the spectator) that the Sephiroth gene is causing it all, but I do not know from where he gets this information.

Vincent, being mysterious as always, doesn’t seem to explain where he got this information. He’s supposed have been travelling the world in-between FFVII and Advent Children, gathering information from various sources and keeping his distance from everyone else who was in the original party.

The people most tuned in to the Planet (who are still alive) are the elders at Cosmo Canyon. They are those who are left who retain a deeper knowledge of the Planet, and through them the Cetra can sort of live on. Bugenhagen wasn’t the only elder (I know of at least two others: Elder Hargo and Elder Bughe), so there are others about to offer wisdom.

Maybe they helped inform Vincent… But that’s a gap in the lore at this stage as far as I am aware.

To return to the notation of the Eras, to my last hypothesis in particular and certainly in order to make the scenario of the game stick to it. I wonder if the story of the attack on Cetra by Jenova (2000 years ago) and told by Ifalna would not be in fact a tale inspired by the story of what happened on the previous planet(s) at the end of the cycle. You can feel the traces of a cycle at different times of the adventure commencing with the first and last images of the game showing the same Aerith's face enlightened in green. After all, if we consider that the Lifestream feels a need to migrate from planet to planet (Mother (Jenova) == Mother earth/mother nature ?) and that its children have a tendency to want to settle, it seems necessary to invoke a kind of "Chaos" at a given moment in order to make them all enter the ship. At the time of Final Fantasy VII the same kind of event would occur (prophecy), same causes, same consequences. The Northern Crater could be the trace of the arrival of the vessel (Omega).

It is possible that if the Cetra had extraterrestrial origins in deep antiquity that they suffered similar threats in the past. The cyclical nature of the threats could be connected with some of the Norse themes present in FFVII (including the naming of some of the towns to resemble some of the Nine Worlds of Norse cosmology: Midgar/Midgard and Nibelheim/Niflheim). Ragnarok, the Norse apocalypse, had a cyclical element to it and signalled a rebirth and reset rather than a complete destruction of the world.

But I think the idea of Jenova’s attack on the Cetra happening on another Planet conflicts with Ifalna’s statement about the Knowlespole being where the tragedy occurred. Again, it is possible that she has her details confused, but we don’t have much to go on.

I wonder what were the last words (before stopping communication) that the planet said to the Cetra who had settled down, perhaps: "Do as you wish. I'm going to starve and probably die but... that's all right ! Farewell my children." And then to herself: "I will always be able to gather you all when the time has come and continue my journney onto the cosmos."

I think that the Cetra who stopped migrating and cultivating the Planet and turned towards settling (becoming ‘modern humans’) simply stopped hearing the Planet. They were distracted by their technology and busy lives and lost their touch with nature. I’m not sure if they received a telling off or a warning from the Planet for what they did, but I could be wrong. I think they just stopped listening and one day they forgot how to.

But the Planet did warn the Cetra to get out of the Knowlespole immediately prior to Jenova emerging and attacking them.

At the end of Dirge of Cerberus I think we can understand that the earthly life is saved by Chaos. I think that it's a very strange ecological message to conclude the entire story.
But we know that Chaos was controlled by/trapped inside Vincent (which shouldn't be), maybe making it unable to fulfill its destiny (the real Chaos never woke up in that cave). Hence probably the need for the Lifestream to use other means. Why not by cynically manipulating weak modern Cetras (Cloud and Co) in order to make them trigger the needed apocalypse.

Yeah.
According to the Omega Reports discovered in Dirge of Cerberus, Chaos was described in an ancient Cetra tablet. Lucretia and Grimoire Valentine found a pool of corrupted Lifestream within the cave and speculated that Chaos must eventually be born there.
Chaos was supposed to be the destroyer, killing everything and returning all life to the Lifestream so that Omega could gather everything together blast it off into space.

But, thanks to Protomateria, with Vincent being able to control Chaos a little better rather than fully becoming Chaos, this crisis was averted. However, this is all because Shinra (or Deepground) were attempting to shock the Planet into releasing Omega earlier than it should have been released. They killed a lot of people purely to trick the Planet into thinking the apocalypse was near and that it was time for Omega.
So none of it played out the way it was 'supposed' to according to the roles of Omega and Chaos. The heroes were able to prevent it all, so it becomes sweetly ironic that Chaos (the dark void of death itself) through Vincent actually acts like a guardian angel in the end and prevents the end of the world.


-
I had also drafted a response to a part of your post you may have edited out and I didn't have time to post at the time.
But with regards to the theory regarding the Greek letters for eras when connected with Omega weapon, here are some thoughts:

The future [Ω]-Era being the intended time for the activation of the Omega weapon (which is tasked with gathering the Lifestream into it and launching off into space) would be rather neat.
That makes me think again about who named the Weapons because if Omega Weapon was named such by modern humans because they learned of its function of transporting the Planet’s life force into space to find a new planet, then that might be why they decided on the name ‘Omega’ as it tied into their beliefs that at the end of the [Ω]-Era the cycle might begin anew elsewhere. Or, with the Cetra more likely to know of these things, if this era-system was originally created by the Cetra then maybe 'Omega' was something that they were aware of as being an event scheduled for the [Ω]-Era.

But it is vague in the games. We aren’t really invited to think about precisely how long the Cetra had been roaming the Planet before the invasion of Jenova. We know they have been about for a long time. If the [α]-Era marks their arrival on the Planet (and if they really are extraterrestrial) that’ll go back so far that they pretty much have made themselves at home on the Planet that they have cared for over multiple thousands of years anyway.

If you are correct about the Cetra being outsiders, this could tie in with Square Enix’s otherwise relatively unorthodox remarks that FFX-2’s character Shinra is an ancestor of President Shinra. That said, it might just complicate the timeline further. If FFX-2’s Shinra is indeed amongst the first 'Cetra' to land on FFVII's Planet during the [α]-Era (if this is what we are proposing) then there’s a long, long wait before the eventual emergence of President Shinra with his short-sighted interpretation of the lofty ideals of his ancestor. It makes it less likely that the memory of FFX-2’s Shinra (to say nothing of the name itself) could really have passed down intact.

So that might make the Spirans yet another wave of extraterrestrials landing on FFVII’s Planet at some unspecified time. At this juncture it would make you wonder just what, if anything, could even be native to the Planet.

I have concerns with this though. The Planet knows when the life which enters its Lifestream isn’t native and it treats it as a threat. Hence the presence of Omega and Chaos to nuke everything and start again during moments when the Lifestream has become polluted by alien particles or some other catastrophe. So if the Cetra were themselves aliens, something about them must have made the semi-sentient Planet trust them and allow them to tend to her. Otherwise they would have been rejected or made the Planet ill like Jenova did.

"Greek letters at the Gold Saucer", that would make a nice title for a noire genre detective story

I'd seriously love that.

 

[Molosev]

If these eras are a reliable element and if they really last 2000 years, it is interesting to note that 2000 years separate Jenova's alleged arrival on board a Meteor and her awakening at the time of the game.
Considering this, I think that an interesting theory about the eras could be that they represent the duration of a migration, like :
[α]-Era (1st - alpha) : the start of the migration, the origin planet of the Lifestream or the first planet visited by it in this universe.
[λ]-Era (11th - lambda) : the era that happened on the planet before FF7's, maybe Spira. (migration trip + settlement)
[μ]-Era (12th - mu) : the era that happened on the planet of Final Fantasy VII (migration trip + settlement)
[ν]-Era (13th - nu) : the era that started at the time of the departure to the next planet (departure that maybe failed or not completely failed if we consider that the head (some) of the Lifestream has escaped on the Meteor)
[Ω]-Era (24th - omega) : the last migration, the promised land or the step just before. (the Omega vessel is maybe baptised relatively to the final destination)

I think that the Northern Crater could very likely resemble the place that the previous Omega would have crashed onto. This is the place that concentrates most of the Mako and thus could be seen as the heart of the Lifestream. To me there was no life on this rock (planet) before the arrival of the Lifestream. I don't think that there's a conscious telluric entity that got hurt on impact.

My most recent general hypothesis is that : Jenova is a fictional invention of the Lifestream that was constructed to help it survive/migrate.
To convince you that this hypothesis is true I mainly have to convince you that Ifalna is lying. (very difficult task)

So why would Ifalna lie ?
I think that the Lifestream has very good reasons to be mad at the Cetras (I call modern humans Cetra too). They chose to settle where they should be preparing the next migration by cultivating the land and thus raising the necessary Mako. Worse, they're dilapidating the Mako capital by burning it to make electricity (I also discovered recently that the spirit of dead people is in fact really burned in vehicle engines - see the advert video in the item shop at Shinra tower's 2nd floor). Both these behaviors are an enormous insult to their mother in my opinion and they also really put the hypothetic next migration in danger.

Edit inspired by my last thaugths at the time of the conclusion: Maybe the Lifestream is just really mad at humanity because at some point in the past someone locked "Chaos" willingly (secession), really putting the hypothetic next migration in danger ! If her children desire to settle against her will so much, what a better vengeance that to provide them with commodities such as electricity and transport, powered by the burned spirits of their dead relatives.
What punishment could be more cruel than to make the person (Lucrecia) who has made the migration impossible bear the child who will participate in making it possible again and then die in the process.

Now departure time is nearly there but "Chaos" has been trapped inside Vincent and thus isn't able to gather all life before departure.
Moreover the protomateria that is necessary to summon Omega is unavailbale because it is containing Chaos inside Vincent.
This issue has probably been noticed by the Lifestream before the events of Final fantasy VII (and the recent past).
Hence the need to find other ways to trigger the next migration.

Ifalna is said to be the last Cetra and so to be very close to the Lifestream (able to converse with it in a difficult to explain manner).
So she could be seen as the logical Lifestream's soldier number one along with her daughter Aerith who would continue the task after her.
I assume that the Lifestream is unable to make physical events happen by herself. To do that she basically has to summon creatures and then to manipulate them mentally in order to make them do what she needs.
Aerith kind of mentally talked to Cloud during the Sleeping Forest's dialog. So I guess that this is a skill that belongs to the Cetra/Lifestream entities. A kind of sound/image based difficult to explain way of talking (dream/hallucination).

"Jenova" that is said to have corrupted the lifestream would be able to use this skill (speak to the Cetra) but the Lifesteam that gave birth to these human entites wouldn't? Let's say that the Cetra aren't able to hear what the Lifestream would try to tell them (that she hates them all probably or that she considers them in a love less way). She wouldn't need to tell them anything since "Jenova" is doing it for her.
Jenova is obviously involved in all the manipulations that tend to allow the completion of the migration:
- Increase in the number of death (return to Lifestream)
- Implementation of an operational transport solution (Meteor or Omega)

The tellings by Ifalna and Aerith tremendously participated in building the wrong steps (Cloud and Co/Shinra's reflexions/decisions/agendas) that would lead the entire party to trigger the final events in my opinion.
On the tapes from Icicle Inn it's Ifalna that gives the name "Jenova" to Gast (and so to everyone that see the tape).

Ifalna : Yes, Professor.
The one the Professor mistook for a Cetra... was named Jenova. That is the 'crisis from the sky'.

This is not a name created by the scientist, otherwise she would probably have said "the one that the professor named Jenova". This observation could indicate that these videos are anterior to the Jenova project or that they are a part of the Jenova Project (manipulation).
Edit : In the japanese version, Ifalna clearly states that it's Gast who named this entity Jenova.
But how would she know the thing's name ? Oral history you might say. But I don't think that the hypothetic Ancients were already experts in genetic engineering, yet many players have associated Jenova's name with the gene term (or is it just me aka the mystified puppet). Did Ifalna invented this name intentionally to scramble the tracks? Is this the Lifestream master's real name ?

What are the reasons for Jenova to destroy the planet ? None it seems.
Yet the influence and actions of "Jenova" are felt by some players as the just punishment that humans deserve.
Why the Lifestream wouldn't have inflicted this punishment itself ? Well, maybe it did.

In the end I must admit that I have no direct proof that Ifalna is lying. But I think that the context that I presented here can help make this hypothesis credible.

You may notice that I did not mention a lot about Sephiroth in this post. Yet I have not forgotten him. For me he's also a Lifestream soldier although not willingly. This role of psychopath that he interprets in a masterful and grandiloquent way greatly participated in the mystification, in my opinion. He probably practiced this theatrical ability at "school" with his former friend Genesis (VR training program at Shinra).

To go further, I have a doubt now that Shinra inc, Soldier and Deepground are not actually creations inspired by the will of the Lifestream...
A really nasty punishment for an ancient secession as well as a powerful way of gathering a massive amount of Mako in the biggest fuel pump of the planet, just below Meteor and Omega's launch pads.

Is oil the inert residue of Lifestream ?

 

[Dionysos]

I think that the most interesting proposition about the eras would be :
[α]-Era (1st - alpha) : the start of the migration, the origin planet of the Lifestream or the first planet visited by it in this universe.
[λ]-Era (11th - lambda) : the era that happened on the planet before FF7's, maybe Spira. (migration trip + settlement)
[μ]-Era (12th - mu) : the era that happened on the planet of Final Fantasy VII (migration trip + settlement)
[ν]-Era (13th - nu) : the era that started at the time of the departure to the next planet (departure that maybe failed or not completely failed if we consider that the head (some) of the Lifestream has escaped on the Meteor)
[Ω]-Era (24th - omega) : the last migration, the promised land or the step just before. (the Omega vessel is maybe baptised relatively to the final destination)

I think it has been implied that the [λ]-Era was the period when the Cetra thrived before the arrival of Jenova, but these events as we have stated are all vague and not precise (requiring people to attempt to fill the gaps as they see fit). All anyone has ever said is the very approximate ‘2,000 years ago’ which could be greater or lesser than the exact 2,000 years. So it is possible that Jenova landed in the earliest parts of the [μ]-Era if by 2,000 years ago we mean 'roughly' and actually less than that.

I think that the Northern Crater could very likely resemble the place that the previous Omega would have crashed onto. This is the place that concentrates most of the Mako and thus could be seen as the heart of the Lifestream. To me there was no life on this rock (planet) before the arrival of the Lifestream. I don't think that there's a conscious telluric entity that got hurt on impact.

This assumes that the Lifestream didn’t form natively on the planet. I can imagine that there was no life at all on the Planet before the Lifestream came into being (whether it formed from the inner workings of the Planet itself, or appeared from space).

We don’t really know how it came into being, if it appeared on a meteor itself or formed out of cosmic dust or anything.
But I quite like that. It's a lot like how we don’t fully understand how life started on our own planet.

My most recent general hypothesis is that : Jenova is a fictional invention of the Lifestream that was constructed to help it survive/migrate.
To convince you that this hypothesis is true I mainly have to convince you that Ifalna is lying. (very difficult task)

I don’t think I can agree with the idea of Jenova being an invention of the Lifestream (their objectives, as much as we can ascertain any objectives for these entities, appear to be at odds with each other). But if this is true that idea doesn’t even need to rely on Ifalna telling a lie. It could be that Ifalna herself has been misled or misinterpreted the Cetran oral history and in good faith she could have misrepresented it to Gast by mistake.

So why would Ifalna lie ?
I think that the Lifestream has very good reasons to be mad at the Cetras (I call modern humans Cetra too). They chose to settle where they should be preparing the next migration by cultivating the land and thus raising the necessary Mako. Worse, they're dilapidating the Mako capital by burning it to make electricity (I also discovered recently that the spirit of dead people is in fact really burned in vehicle engines - see the advert video in the item shop at Shinra tower's 2nd floor). Both these behaviors are an enormous insult to their mother in my opinion and they also really put the hypothetic next migration in danger.

You are right to emphasise how modern humans are the same species as the Cetra, but the thing which distinguishes them is their way of life.
The Cetra, when behaving as Cetra were migratory humans who lived in balance with the Planet. The only Cetran archaeological remains that we are aware of (the ‘Forgotten Capital’ and the ‘Temple of the Ancients’) appear to be largely religious or public in function. These are pilgrimage sites rather than cities like the modern humans would create.

Unless the Planet was punishing all Cetra for the transgressions of those who did splinter and start to form civilisations (a bit like the Biblical God flooding the planet and starting anew with Noah's family), but if it was something like this then that backfired for the Planet since it was the harmonious migrating Cetra which ended up becoming endangered while modern humans thrived for the next two thousand years at the Planet's expense.

About the advertisement in the Shinra tower... I’ve just searched for it. In all of my years playing the game I’ve never noticed that car advertisement! That’s pretty long and detailed too. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

As for use of Mako, I agree with all of this as reasons why the Planet would be unhappy with modern humans (and why AVALANCHE and the Cosmo Canyon elders are also unhappy with modern human way of life), but I wouldn’t have connected that with the ancient migratory Cetra. The Planet would have preferred the Cetra to continue on their less destructive path instead of the path Shinra and modern humans have been embarking upon.

I think the split is significant. Maybe this aspect of the theory rests on an idea that the Planet can't detect the difference between good Cetra who would abide by the rules of nature, or those of the modern sort like Shinra who would slowly kill the Planet for profit. The Planet might just feel the pain of humans attacking it, so with that maybe it would punish everybody. Though it seemed to detect that the ancient Cetra were good for the Planet in the past (at least in Ifalna's statements which in the theory explored here might not be trustworthy).

Edit inspired by my last thaugths at the time of the conclusion: Maybe the Lifestream is just really mad at humanity because at some point in the past someone locked "Chaos" willingly (secession), really putting the hypothetic next migration in danger ! If her children desire to settle against her will so much, what a better vengeance that to provide them with commodities such as electricity and transport, powered by the burned spirits of their dead relatives.
What punishment could be more cruel than to make the person (Lucrecia) who has made the migration impossible bear the child who will participate in making it possible again and then die in the process.

I think you might be right that the Planet has a very peculiar relationship with its inhabitants. It is willing to destroy a lot of lives for the sake of what it considers to be the greater good in order to preserve the concept of life itself and ultimately survive itself.

I’m not sure how much the Lifestream / Planet feels, but I can suspect it wouldn’t be taking well to the fact that its defence mechanisms have been thwarted at every opportunity by humans. Not only has Chaos been co-opted, but the Weapons have all been defeated.

If the Planet, as you propose, actually created Jenova and orchestrated the rise of Sephiroth as a new means to bring about a cataclysm to return life to the Lifestream and then blast off elsewhere and start anew, that’s a fascinating interpretation. That’s very much suggesting that Jenova was an inside job.

I don’t believe this is intended at all within the official lore and it could be amongst the greatest tinfoil hat conspiracies of the whole Final Fantasy franchise, but there are undoubtedly many mysteries in the story with regards to the use of Black Materia (why the Cetra would even keep such a super-weapon as this), the (reported) arrival of Jenova also using a meteor, and also the disturbing fact that whenever people have experienced the force of the Planet it has always been a struggle for survival (Weapons, Black Materia, the waves of tainted Lifestream which caused Geostigma, etc).

Ifalna is said to be the last Cetra and so to be very close to the Lifestream (able to converse with it in a difficult to explain manner).
So she could be seen as the logical Lifestream's soldier number one along with her daughter Aerith who would continue the task after her.
I assume that the Lifestream is unable to make physical events happen by herself. To do that she basically has to summon creatures and then to manipulate them mentally in order to make them do what she needs.
Aerith kind of mentally talked to Cloud during the Sleeping Forest's dialog. So I guess that this is a skill that belongs to the Cetra/Lifestream entities. A kind of sound/image based difficult to explain way of talking (dream/hallucination).

I would say that Ifalna and Aerith were soldiers of the Lifestream in a way, just not Jenova’s (officially). Aerith was the Lifestream's best hope of survival.

"Jenova" that is said to have corrupted the lifestream would be able to use this skill (speak to the Cetra) but the Lifesteam that gave birth to these human entites wouldn't? Let's say that the Cetra aren't able to hear what the Lifestream would try to tell them (that she hates them all probably or that she considers them in a love less way). She wouldn't need to tell them anything since "Jenova" is doing it for her.
Jenova is obviously involved in all the manipulations that tend to allow the completion of the migration:
- Increase in the number of death (return to Lifestream)
- Implementation of an operational transport solution (Meteor or Omega)

The tellings by Ifalna and Aerith tremendously participated in building the wrong steps (Cloud and Co/Shinra's reflexions/decisions/agendas) that would lead the entire party to trigger the final events in my opinion.

Possibly. Jenova and Sephiroth's actions did lead to an instance which forced the Planet to activate its defences (and one could presume that Omega was getting fidgety with anticipation), but when the defences and Holy failed then Lifestream itself got involved. If it wanted to migrate at that moment then the Planet should have let Meteor strike it, wipe out all life, and then gather the Lifestream into Omega and blast off. Instead it prolonged it and preserved life on the Planet (albeit corrupted, with the wash of tainted Lifestream).

The very existence of Ifalna and Aerith did lead Shinra into some of the wicked decisions which ultimately led to the chain of events that we see in the game. I see this more as a tragic sequence of consequences rather than them being a willing part of a sinister plan by the Planet working through Jenova.

On the tapes from Icicle Inn it's Ifalna that gives the name "Jenova" to Gast (and so to everyone that see the tape).

This is not a name created by the scientist, otherwise she would probably have said "the one that the professor named Jenova". This observation could indicate that these videos are anterior to the Jenova project or that they are a part of the Jenova Project (manipulation).
But how would she know the thing's name ? Oral history you might say. But I don't think that the hypothetic Ancients were already experts in genetic engineering, yet many players have associated Jenova's name with the gene term (or is it just me aka the mystified puppet). Did Ifalna invented this name intentionally to scramble the tracks? Is this the Lifestream master's real name ?

Jenova is a portmanteau of Jehovah (God) + Nova in terms of the game’s development, but its similarity to genome could also be a factor with the weird science aspect of its role in the plot (gene splicing, etc). But in terms of the FFVII world’s internal logic, I’m not sure why the ancient Cetra would have given the being the name of Jenova. Maybe since the entity took human form to manipulate them, the creature gave its own name. I think like any name in the Final Fantasy franchise these names are for us, the player, rather than truly being names which make a lot of sense or have any sort of etymological root within the native fictional languages of this world.

We know nothing about the Cetran language though, so maybe 'Jenova' meant something to them.

It is also curious that Jenova really transcends gender. In Ifalna’s retelling she uses male pronouns in some translations. Yet the body in the tank is female (a naked female with an eyeball on its nipple, etc) and Sephiroth considers Jenova his mother. The reason for this is possibly a translation issue, or maybe it is because as a shape-shifter Jenova was neither male nor female but could be anything it wanted to be.

What are the reasons for Jenova to destroy the planet ? None it seems.
Yet the influence and actions of "Jenova" are felt by some players as the just punishment that humans deserve.
Why the Lifestream wouldn't have inflicted this punishment itself ? Well, maybe it did.

We don’t know Jenova’s objectives, if she even had any and wasn't just acting on instinct. Her only direct words to the party are where she trolls Cloud and calls him a puppet. This and her ability to shapeshift suggests that she's capable of being very sinister at the very least.

In Advent Children Sephiroth mentions planning to ride the Planet on the cosmos like his mother before him, so maybe she was just a dark force moving and destroying planet to planet. A migrator who has no permanent home but works like a parasite before killing its host and moving on.

I can concede that this is similar to the Cetra way of life in terms of the migration, but Jenova's lifestyle appears to be disharmonious and destructive. At least that is what we have been led by the lore of the game to believe.

I think the horror aspect of Jenova is so powerful in FFVII precisely because her intentions are never stated or fully understood.

In the end I must admit that I have no direct proof that Ifalna is lying. But I think that the context that I presented here can help make this hypothesis credible.

I’d say that we don’t know enough about her to say whether she was lying or not. All we know about her is what we see in Gast’s tapes and also the flashback of Elmyra (Aerith’s adoptive mother) at the train station, and scanty references in Ultimanias etc which don’t give us much more to work with.

You may notice that I did not mention a lot about Sephiroth in this post. Yet I have not forgotten him. For me he's also a Lifestream soldier although not willingly. This role of psychopath that he interprets in a masterful and grandiloquent way greatly participated in the mystification, in my opinion. He probably practiced this theatrical ability at "school" with his former friend Genesis (VR training program at Shinra).

Are you suggesting that Sephiroth’s turn to insanity was an act? Like he was a sleeper agent of sorts? Or one that was activated upon reading particular key words?

To go further, I have a doubt now that Shinra inc, Soldier and Deepground are not actually creations inspired by the will of the Lifestream...
A really nasty punishment for an ancient secession as well as a powerful way of gathering a massive amount of Mako in the biggest fuel pump of the planet, just below Meteor and Omega's launch pads.

Is oil the inert residue of Lifestream ?

This is an interesting point about oil.. One wonders how oil and coal and other fossil fuels can even exist in a world with a Lifestream, since matter decays and becomes one with the Lifestream. Also, the Fossil Village wouldn’t make much sense. That said, maybe not. I'll have to read up on it again.
Maybe it is purely the spirit energy which joins the Lifestream and the physical remains (in certain conditions where they can be preserved) become fossils and fossil fuels over time. That's probably the right of it, so oil is probably part of the dead matter which couldn't join the Lifestream as only spirit energy can pass into that.
Therefore all souls enter the Lifestream, but only in much rarer cases and in the right environmental conditions can parts of the bodies of the deceased be preserved as fossils (as is true on our planet).

 

[Molosev]

"An inside job" that feels like the right expression !

I don’t think I can agree with the idea of Jenova being an invention of the Lifestream (their objectives, as much as we can ascertain any objectives for these entities, appear to be at odds with each other). But if this is true that idea doesn’t even need to rely on Ifalna telling a lie. It could be that Ifalna herself has been misled or misinterpreted the Cetran oral history and in good faith she could have misrepresented it to Gast by mistake.

I agree that she could have been misled in some way. But I think the theory would be much stronger if it was admitted that Ifalna was lying. I must emphasize this point because otherwise I will always be opposed (legitimately) the words of (beloved) Ifalna, used as a way of cutting short to the simple consideration of the theory. This has happened a few times.
If we consider that the Jenova Project is a manipulation (an inside job), I do not see how the Lifestream could have done otherwise than to diffuse false information in key times/places, in order to have a maximum of control over the course of events. You can't just rely on providence.
The possibility that the Icicle Inn tapes predate the Jenova project could greatly support the hypothesis of a lie/manipulation in my opinion. We have no proof that Aerith is already born as we watch these tapes, we never see her due to a mysterious camera failure....

About the advertisement in the Shinra tower... I’ve just searched for it. In all of my years playing the game I’ve never noticed that car advertisement! That’s pretty long and detailed too. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

This is a horrific promotional video. I think I wouldn't have bought one of these cars... Wait... I've got a car

As for use of Mako, I agree with all of this as reasons why the Planet would be unhappy with modern humans (and why AVALANCHE and the Cosmo Canyon elders are also unhappy with modern human way of life), but I wouldn’t have connected that with the ancient migratory Cetra. The Planet would have preferred the Cetra to continue on their less destructive path instead of the path Shinra and modern humans have been embarking upon.

I think that we can take for granted that the Lifestream was deeply unhappy with ancient Cetra secessionists. Gast apparently learned from his researches that they used the resources of the planet (Mako ?) to feed their new sendentary way of life. It's Sephiroth that tells it to Cloud (the player) in the famous basement scene.
Apparently the Lifestream was not able to stop the Cetra from changing their way of life. Perhaps the Al Bhed sensibility within the pool of Lifestream has grown so much that it has become impossible to contain. She may have been forced to face this dangerous trend and worked to make the most out of it (lovelessly). Hence maybe the idea to promote ShinRa/Midgar as a way of centralizing the harm. Making the use of Mako more efficent and thus reducing the leak. We can see that there's still plenty of Lifestream, well enough to "destroy" the Meteor.

Possibly. Jenova and Sephiroth's actions did lead to an instance which forced the Planet to activate its defences (and one could presume that Omega was getting fidgety with anticipation), but when the defences and Holy failed then Lifestream itself got involved. If it wanted to migrate at that moment then the Planet should have let Meteor strike it, wipe out all life, and then gather the Lifestream into Omega and blast off. Instead it prolonged it and preserved life on the Planet (albeit corrupted, with the wash of tainted Lifestream).

That's an interesting point that you make.
I maybe have an answer. Vincent hid in a coffin for quite long before the events of Final Fantasy VII. Moreover we know how hard it was for Deepground to find Vincent and to take the Protomateria out of him (later in Dirge of Cerberus). The Protomateria seems to be a prerequisite to the summoning of Omega, otherwise Deepground would have been content with a drastic increase in the number of deaths.
I think that it would have been sucidal to let Meteor strike the planet without a totally complete operational escape solution.
That is if the Meteor invocation's real purpose is to strike a planet at full speed which is how I see a proper meteor attack. But this is not the behavior that I could observe, Meteor kind of hovered on Midgar for quite a long period of time. I don't know what kind of harm it could have done to the planet by starting a second run from a few hundred meters high (you might argue that this is a fantasy universe).

I think you're right to point out that the Black Materia as well as the Temple of Ancients really are strange/enigmatic (do not make sense ?) if we consider them as a weapon of self-destruction created by the kind planet.

I noticed that there is a resemblance in the way the Lifestream rejoins Meteor in Final Fantasy VII ending and the way the Lifestream should have rejoined Omega Dirge of Cerberus - Omega briefing

I'm not sure if life got prolonged this much. This is not what the scene where Nanaki watches the ruins of Midgar from his promontory (500 years later) evokes to me. We hear children laugh but we do not see them, a bit like ghost laughings.

We know nothing about the Cetran language though, so maybe 'Jenova' meant something to them.

To try to understand the link between Final Fantasy VII and X. God in X is called Yevon (which resembles Yahweh). In VII we've got a Jenova (which quite resembles Jehovah). Now Yahweh and Jehovah are the names of the same god in one of our own planet's ancient culture. Aerith seems to be the guardian of a church with an ornament on her pediment that looks like a four-branch candelabrum. (You can see the same "candelabrum" on the pediment of a ruined church beside the one still standing). Maybe the god is the same.

I think the horror aspect of Jenova is so powerful in FFVII precisely because her intentions are never stated or fully understood.

That's right ! But the horror potential of the game would be exponentially greater if Jenova was in fact the Lifestream, in my opinion.

Are you suggesting that Sephiroth’s turn to insanity was an act? Like he was a sleeper agent of sorts? Or one that was activated upon reading particular key words?

Yes, I think that he could have been bred to react the way he did when he read about the Jenova Project (gone mad).
I also think that Zack could have been bred and VR trained in order to construct a state of conscience/knowledge (mission memories, values, goals) that would then be implanted into Cloud (extract 1 - extract 2). Which would make Cloud the perfect puppet for the mission. An amnesiac "hero" who would embrace his dreams (hallucinations) and have honor.
At the end of Crisis Core Zack dies and asks Cloud to bear his legacy. He wanted to live a mercenary life in Midgar and this is exactly what Cloud ends up doing at the start of FF7. Perfect relay, the final phase of the plan can begin.

I really don't know FFX well and -X2 even less. But on a video showing the ending of -X2 I have the feeling that a migration could be about to begin (in a much more controlled/serene way).

 

[Dionysos]

I agree that she could have been misled in some way. But I think the theory would be much stronger if it was admitted that Ifalna was lying. I must emphasize this point because otherwise I will always be opposed (legitimately) the words of (beloved) Ifalna, used as a way of cutting short to the simple consideration of the theory. This has happened a few times.
If we consider that the Jenova Project is a manipulation (an inside job), I do not see how the Lifestream could have done otherwise than to diffuse false information in key times/places, in order to have a maximum of control over the course of events. You can't just rely on providence.
The possibility that the Icicle Inn tapes predate the Jenova project could greatly support the hypothesis of a lie/manipulation in my opinion. We have no proof that Aerith is already born as we watch these tapes, we never see her due to a mysterious camera failure....

I think there is much we don’t know and much that we don’t see in these tapes. We’re only shown very select snippets. This is essentially everything which wasn’t wiped from Gast’s files which conveniently (to the player) reveals just enough information to fill in major gaps in the plot.

But the tapes do suggest that Aerith is already born as Gast and Ifalna talk about her and are concerned for her well-being. We never see her (I suspect because Square Enix didn’t want to have to design a baby model for Aerith) but she is made present despite her absence by being talked about as if she is just out of shot.

Also the tapes are titled as such:

Hojo arrives on the scene and takes Ifalna and Aerith after shooting Dr. Gast, so Aerith is definitely already born by now.

Also, Sephiroth idolises Gast and it is implied that he knew him in life when he was child, which suggests that this must have taken place after the Jenova Project was well underway.

Looking into their ages during FFVII would confirm this: Aerith is 22 and Sephiroth is 27.

I think that we can take for granted that the Lifestream was deeply unhappy with ancient Cetra secessionists. Gast apparently learned from his researches that they used the resources of the planet (Mako ?) to feed their new sendentary way of life. It's Sephiroth that tells it to Cloud (the player) in the famous basement scene.
Apparently the Lifestream was not able to stop the Cetra from changing their way of life. Perhaps the Al Bhed sensibility within the pool of Lifestream has grown so much that it has become impossible to contain. She may have been forced to face this dangerous trend and worked to make the most out of it (lovelessly). Hence maybe the idea to promote ShinRa/Midgar as a way of centralizing the harm. Making the use of Mako more efficent and thus reducing the leak. We can see that there's still plenty of Lifestream, well enough to "destroy" the Meteor.

I guess this rests on a translation of ‘Planet’ for them settling the ‘Planet’ and then moving on.

I can’t find a version of the Japanese script which is friendly for English readers to scroll through in order to check particular Japanese words. I’ll keep looking, but I’m curious to see if the word used really is ‘Planet’ in Japanese or if the word is ‘Earth’. It is a minor distinction for an English translation, but the true nature of the word is critical here when we examine this more deeply. If the former (Planet as in the sphere of the world itself), then the cosmic interpretation of the Cetra being inter-galactic travellers stands as the intended interpretation of Sephiroth's words. If the latter (earth), then the meaning could have been that they settled the ‘earth’ or the ‘land’ before moving on. This is a terrestrial interpretation giving a completely different meaning and shows how the particular word is very, very important. I’d be curious to see what the Japanese word was.

But if ‘Planet’ is the correct translation (as it has been translated in the official localisations), there may be room for this theory on this point.

As for the resources, I’m not sure if Sephiroth means Mako or other resources of the planet, but the effect is the same regardless. Non-migratory Cetra (aka ‘modern humans’) took from the Planet but did not give back in equal measure. A bit like real humans of our times.

I maybe have an answer. Vincent hid in a coffin for quite long before the events of Final Fantasy VII. Moreover we know how hard it was for Deepground to find Vincent and to take the Protomateria out of him (later in Dirge of Cerberus). The Protomateria seems to be a prerequisite to the summoning of Omega, otherwise Deepground would have been content with a drastic increase in the number of deaths.
I think that it would have been sucidal to let Meteor strike the planet without a totally complete operational escape solution.
That is if the Meteor invocation's real purpose is to strike a planet at full speed which is how I see a proper meteor attack. But this is not the behavior that I could observe, Meteor kind of hovered on Midgar for quite a long period of time. I don't know what kind of harm it could have done to the planet by starting a second run from a few hundred meters high (you might argue that this is a fantasy universe).

I think we’re meant to imagine that Holy (and eventually the Lifestream) were holding Meteor back and stalling it, but you’re right. It is peculiar and doesn’t explain how long it took meteor to strike the Planet in the first place.

When Meteor is summoned it isn’t too far away from the Planet, yet days, weeks, maybe even months pass before it enters the atmosphere. People look up with fear at the Meteor in the sky and it seems very much stationary. Space is big and it can seem to take distant objects a long time to get anywhere even though they are in reality hurtling at unimaginable speeds, but the meteor didn’t appear to be far away when summoned anyway, so this is curious.

Then again, this Meteor wasn’t a natural meteor. It was a magic spell summoned by the black materia.
The fact that it can be summoned using materia which itself presumably formed from the Planet is fascinating to me, so in a way at least that aspect of the story was an ‘inside job’. The Planet seems to be a repeat self-harmer.

So perhaps the Meteor spell was designed to be slow so that the Protomateria and Omega have time to activate in case Holy doesn't work, so that all life can be sent to the Lifestream and then launched into space. (That's if we don't just believe that Square Enix didn't give any thought to the speed of Meteor since the idea of Omega and the Protomateria were all imagined further down the line during the Compilation and weren't part of the original plan of the game.)

I think you're right to point out that the Black Materia as well as the Temple of Ancients really are strange/enigmatic (do not make sense ?) if we consider them as a weapon of self-destruction created by the kind planet.

I noticed that there is a resemblance in the way the Lifestream rejoins Meteor in Final Fantasy VII ending and the way the Lifestream should have rejoined Omega Dirge of Cerberus - Omega briefing

You’re right. It does appear to be the same behaviour.

Perhaps Aerith was able to channel the Lifestream in this way precisely because it was already capable of behaving in this fashion due to Omega.

I'm not sure if life got prolonged this much. This is not what the scene where Nanaki watches the ruins of Midgar from his promontory (500 years later) evokes to me. We hear children laugh but we do not see them, a bit like ghost laughings.

This is an eerie end for sure. I always took it to imply that humanity didn’t last for very long. Advent Children and other Compilation entries (including the On the Way to a Smile collection) show that humans were clinging on, but in a state of decline. Post-FFVII is very, very depressing!

It is a post-apocalyptic world for sure.

To try to understand the link between Final Fantasy VII and X. God in X is called Yevon (which resembles Yahweh). In VII we've got a Jenova (which quite resembles Jehovah). Now Yahweh and Jehovah are the names of the same god in one of our own planet's ancient culture. Aerith seems to be the guardian of a church with an ornament on her pediment that looks like a four-branch candelabrum. (You can see the same "candelabrum" on the pediment of a ruined church beside the one still standing). Maybe the god is the same.

Yevon is represented by the symbol Ahriman which is the Zoroastrian evil / chaotic deity.
But the Yevon religion as a whole definitely appears to be a criticism of the darker sides of Catholicism and its dogma (amongst other organised religions, but Catholicism quite prominently).

This reminds me of the Aerith and her Faith debate we once had here. We looked at the Christian symbolism of Aerith at length during this discussion (though there was some disagreements on whether it should be taken literally or metaphorically/allegorical, much like some real life religious debates!) and some of the things you point out here were examined there.

I think any attempt to connect Yevon and Jenova would depend on the order of the timeline (amongst other things). If we accept the idea that Spirans came to the FFVII Planet (which is something many fans find difficult) we then need to determine whether they arrived a) as the first Cetra and humans on the Planet, b) sometime later but before Jenova, c) with Jenova, or d) after Jenova and the decline of the Cetra.

If c) is correct (which would be needed for the Yevon idea), then we need to work a few other things out before we consider Yevon being Jenova or a basis for Jenova.

Firstly, by X-2 Yevon is out of favour and no longer dominates Spira. It still has its adherents, but they are mostly reformed. The entity of Yu Yevon itself is destroyed. If the Spirans who travelled to the FFVII Planet were Yevon-extremists bringing their deity with them then that doesn’t explain why Shinra (the FFX-2 character) would be with them, or how Yevon is restored to physical life in a different form.

Secondly, Jenova doesn’t fit the behaviour or appearance of Yevon a great deal. Jenova’s tactics or MO have changed considerably. Although the manipulation of the truth loosely fits with Jenova, Jenova is a shapeshifter who pretends to be human/Cetra and spreads a plague. She doesn't summon a whale as a suit of armour or enact any imperialist ambitions to rule the world through dogma or anything like that.

That's right ! But the horror potential of the game would be exponentially greater if Jenova was in fact the Lifestream, in my opinion.

It would indeed be very creepy if the Planet itself was the enemy and manipulated the lifeforms living on it which it regards as parasites.
I don't think this is the overall intention at all, but I think there are certainly aspects of the Planet's systems which follow these lines. As we've already examined, it does seem to have a lot of defence mechanisms which protect the Planet but harm the lifeforms which live on it (Weapons, Black Materia, for certain, and Jenova too if we entertain your theory).

Yes, I think that he could have been bred to react the way he did when he read about the Jenova Project (gone mad).
I also think that Zack could have been bred and VR trained in order to construct a state of conscience/knowledge (mission memories, values, goals) that would then be implanted into Cloud (extract 1 - extract 2). Which would make Cloud the perfect puppet for the mission. An amnesiac "hero" who would embrace his dreams (hallucinations) and have honor.
At the end of Crisis Core Zack dies and asks Cloud to bear his legacy. He wanted to live a mercenary life in Midgar and this is exactly what Cloud ends up doing at the start of FF7. Perfect relay, the final phase of the plan can begin.

I have no trouble considering the idea that Shinra brainwashed Zack and other Soldiers without them realising it. Whether Jenova and this antagonistic interpretation of the Planet worked through Shinra depends on the acceptance of the theory.
I think it is a great theory and a novel way of interpreting the plot (so I'm trying to help you with ironing out any creases in the idea). We'll not get an acceptance of it as canon but it is a good and rather sinister alternative way of examining the game.

I really don't know FFX well and -X2 even less. But on a video showing the ending of -X2 I have the feeling that a migration could be about to begin (in a much more controlled/serene way).

They’re speaking metaphorically about ‘ships’ in that scene relating it to the uncertain future of Spira.

But at some point, if we trust what Square Enix said about FFX-2's Shinra, some Spirans must have travelled the cosmos sometime after this scene.

 

[Molosev]

I think there is much we don’t know and much that we don’t see in these tapes. We’re only shown very select snippets. This is essentially everything which wasn’t wiped from Gast’s files which conveniently (to the player) reveals just enough information to fill in major gaps in the plot.

But the tapes do suggest that Aerith is already born as Gast and Ifalna talk about her and are concerned for her well-being. We never see her (I suspect because Square Enix didn’t want to have to design a baby model for Aerith) but she is made present despite her absence by being talked about as if she is just out of shot.

Also the tapes are titled as such:

Hojo arrives on the scene and takes Ifalna and Aerith after shooting Dr. Gast, so Aerith is definitely already born by now.

Also, Sephiroth idolises Gast and it is implied that he knew him in life when he was child, which suggests that this must have taken place after the Jenova Project was well underway.

Looking into their ages during FFVII would confirm this: Aerith is 22 and Sephiroth is 27.

That's right, there's a great chance that Aerith is already born at the time of these videos although we have no visual proof of it.

I wrote earlier that I didn't believe Gast invented/gave the name Jenova, basing my conviction on the english version of the text (Ifalna: "The one the Professor mistook for a Cetra ... was named Jenova.") which could possibly mean that the name existed before. But the japanese version says something more like "The one you mistook for a Cetra... and that you baptized Jenova". So there's no doubt on this point. I still think that these videos (and the Jenova project as a whole) could be mounted from scratch in order to manipulate Cloud / the player - trigger the next migration.

I guess this rests on a translation of ‘Planet’ for them settling the ‘Planet’ and then moving on.

I can’t find a version of the Japanese script which is friendly for English readers to scroll through in order to check particular Japanese words. I’ll keep looking, but I’m curious to see if the word used really is ‘Planet’ in Japanese or if the word is ‘Earth’. It is a minor distinction for an English translation, but the true nature of the word is critical here when we examine this more deeply. If the former (Planet as in the sphere of the world itself), then the cosmic interpretation of the Cetra being inter-galactic travellers stands as the intended interpretation of Sephiroth's words. If the latter (earth), then the meaning could have been that they settled the ‘earth’ or the ‘land’ before moving on. This is a terrestrial interpretation giving a completely different meaning and shows how the particular word is very, very important. I’d be curious to see what the Japanese word was.

But if ‘Planet’ is the correct translation (as it has been translated in the official localisations), there may be room for this theory on this point.

As for the resources, I’m not sure if Sephiroth means Mako or other resources of the planet, but the effect is the same regardless. Non-migratory Cetra (aka ‘modern humans’) took from the Planet but did not give back in equal measure. A bit like real humans of our times.

Here's the Japanese text of Sephiroth's line that was translated as "They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on..." (speaking about Cetra... Ancient) :
" 旅をして、星を開き、そしてまた旅…… "
A quick google translate gives "Travel, open the stars, and travel again".
This particular character "星" seems to be what translates to "star".

The "star" character appears in one of Aerith's sentences (Shinra tower cells):
" セトラの民、星より生まれ 星と語り、星を開く " which was translated to "The Cetra were born from the Planet, speak with the Planet and unlock the Planet."
A quick google translate gives "Cetra's people are born from stars, talk to the stars, and open the stars".

From what I can get through Google :
The word planet would translate to 惑星 (confusion + star)
The word earth would translate to 地球 (Earth + ball) or simply 地 (Earth)
The word land would translate to 土地 (soil + Earth)

Since the "star" kanji only appears in the kanji series which translates to planet (source google). Maybe it's more about a planet than an earth.
Could this recent tweet from Nojima be of some help here ?...

In the 2015 FF7 Remake trailer (english audio), one of the first sentences says "the memory of the star that threatened all" (obviously evoquing the meteor). The coresponding japanese subtitle line that is built in the video shows the same 星kanji. So maybe a star (or what has been translated to planet in the OG) refers to any sort of celestial body...
I also wonder to what extent this particular sentence "The memory of the star that threatened all burns eternal in our hearts." would not refer to some atomic bombing.

As we came to the conclusion (on another thread) that when someone talks about the planet, they are actually talking about the Lifestream (well maybe without realizing it), it might be interesting to replace the word Planet with Lifestream in these sentences and try to see what this experience can bring us ! What could unlocking the lifestream mean ? Allowing it to leave?

This reminds me of the Aerith and her Faith debate we once had here. We looked at the Christian symbolism of Aerith at length during this discussion (though there was some disagreements on whether it should be taken literally or metaphorically/allegorical, much like some real life religious debates!) and some of the things you point out here were examined there.

I finally read this entire discussion, it was looooooong but very interesting, especially your interventions (that were interesting !
I particularly liked how you brought Jenova into the equation, but I was surprised at the little reaction it caused. Especially since it could possibly have been developed as an argument in favor of Aerith's supposed Christian faith.

I think any attempt to connect Yevon and Jenova would depend on the order of the timeline (amongst other things). If we accept the idea that Spirans came to the FFVII Planet (which is something many fans find difficult) we then need to determine whether they arrived a) as the first Cetra and humans on the Planet, b) sometime later but before Jenova, c) with Jenova, or d) after Jenova and the decline of the Cetra.

If c) is correct (which would be needed for the Yevon idea), then we need to work a few other things out before we consider Yevon being Jenova or a basis for Jenova.

I think they could have arrived as the first Cetra and humans on the planet AND with Jenova (well with the Lifestream).

Assuming that Mako is the term used to represent Lifestream/Spiritual energy in the fuel state and knowing that Shinra(kid) found a way to transform the flow from the farplane into usable energy(*),

(*) Nojima interview (source)
―Is there a connection, for example, with Shinra’s name, which of course reminds one of FFVII? The “last mission” line and Rin’s “I am not alone in my thinking” line from “Detective Rin” have strong implications.
Nojima: “As a matter of fact, yes. Shinra quits the Gullwings, receives enormous financial assistance from Rin and uses Vegnagun to extract mako energy from the Farplane. However, he can’t complete the system to utilize the energy in a single generation, and the Shin-Ra Company is built on another planet in the future once travel to distant planets is possible, and stuff like that … Those things happen about 1000 years after this story, though.”

it could be interesting to read again the words from Elder Hargo at Cosmo Canyon :

"...The Promised Land. So you want to know...? There is no one place called the Promised Land. That's what I believe. No no, it does exist. Hmmm...... you can say that too. In other words, it doesn't exist for us, but it did for the Ancients. The Promised Land is the resting place of the Ancients. The life of the Ancients is one continuous journey. A journey to grow trees and plants, produce animals, and to raise Mako energy. Their harsh journeys continued throughout their lives... The place they returned to after their long journey... Their burial land is the Promised Land. Huh? Supreme Happiness? I believe that, for the Ancients, it was the moment that they were able to return to their Planet. At that moment they were released from their fate, and gained their supreme happiness... At least that's what I believe. I really don't know whether or not it's the truth now. "

And especially this sentence :
"The life of the Ancients is one continuous journey. A journey to grow trees and plants, produce animals, and to raise Mako energy."

We could possibly understand that one of the tasks of the Cetra is to participate in the extraction of fuel from the Lifestream, the same kind of activity that Shinra(kid) had started to develop on Spira. But what could be the positive interest of raising fuel from their beloved Lifestream for a devout Cetra ? Maybe this is what they started to do straight on arrival but against the will of the Lifestream. Maybe that is what they are supposed to do and that the amount of Mako produced should be used (in part) as fuel for Omega.

Nothing tells us that the Spirans who travelled to "Gaia" used the technology developed by the descendants of Shinra (kid) to do so. Maybe it was the traditional (hypothetic) migration system (chaos + omega) that naturally took care of it.

If c) is correct (which would be needed for the Yevon idea), then we need to work a few other things out before we consider Yevon being Jenova or a basis for Jenova.

Firstly, by X-2 Yevon is out of favour and no longer dominates Spira. It still has its adherents, but they are mostly reformed. The entity of Yu Yevon itself is destroyed. If the Spirans who travelled to the FFVII Planet were Yevon-extremists bringing their deity with them then that doesn’t explain why Shinra (the FFX-2 character) would be with them, or how Yevon is restored to physical life in a different form.

Secondly, Jenova doesn’t fit the behaviour or appearance of Yevon a great deal. Jenova’s tactics or MO have changed considerably. Although the manipulation of the truth loosely fits with Jenova, Jenova is a shapeshifter who pretends to be human/Cetra and spreads a plague. She doesn't summon a whale as a suit of armour or enact any imperialist ambitions to rule the world through dogma or anything like that.

I think that the consciousness of the Lifestream was forced to adapt to the evolution of its children. The latter experience during their "living" existence and when they die these experiences/memories are kept in the pool. So that newborns start on updated (potentially dangerous) bases. This behavior could explain why the guiding conscience would be obliged to find new ways (improvise/show a different face) to guide the global project (migration) in the direction it wishes. Through the Yevon cult, the "Sin project", through the Jenova project.

Perhaps the rigorist dogma guided by the faith in Yevon was a way of curbing the phenomenon of sedentarization/raise of technology that certain spirans (Al bheds) sought to develop. Perhaps at some point the next migration process was considered secure and it was no longer necessary to keep this ideological shackle. (I have little knowledge of the ffX "compilation", I went relatively far on X but I did not finish it...)

Perhaps the "Al Bhed" sensitivity had become too important within the pool of Lifestream (arrived on Gaia) so much that the guiding conscience had to resort to new creative means (Shinra dictatorship, Jenova project) in an attempt to control the situation.

I have no trouble considering the idea that Shinra brainwashed Zack and other Soldiers without them realising it. Whether Jenova and this antagonistic interpretation of the Planet worked through Shinra depends on the acceptance of the theory.
I think it is a great theory and a novel way of interpreting the plot (so I'm trying to help you with ironing out any creases in the idea). We'll not get an acceptance of it as canon but it is a good and rather sinister alternative way of examining the game.

I appreciate the compliment !

I really have to thank you for the interest you have in my hypotheses because it allows me to orient my research and to push the reflection further.
I/we seem to be able to build something relatively coherent

I don't think I have a natural talent for storytelling, I never wrote anything. The interesting/intriguing axes that I developed came quite naturally from the moment I had a reason to doubt Aerith's intentions (first hypotheses that followed the viewing of the movie Parking). All these ideas articulated rather well, like finding their connections by themselves, even if yeah... I have to pretend certain characters do lie and that a global manipulation is at work lol.

But overall I have the strong feeling that the developers have sought to distil subtil clues that tend to connect mother Jenova and "mother Earth/Aerith".
The fact that Sephiroth comes to the conclusion (after studying an entire library) that his mother is the "queen" of the Cetra (protective people of the planet). Aerith who is the guardian of a religious building which could be reminiscent of a place of worship dedicated to Jehova. The idea that at the end of OG Aerith seems happy of what happened with the Meteor (although we know there was casualties among "innocent" Midgar citizens). Some allusions in Advent children (Rude and his sign, Kadaj and the Jenova box filled with Lifestream, Aerith surprised that everyone is calling her mother now, the decomposing Omega vessel/wings at the end of Dirge of Cerberus ) ...

 

[Dionysos]

Here's the Japanese text of Sephiroth's line that was translated as "They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on..." (speaking about Cetra... Ancient) :
" 旅をして、星を開き、そしてまた旅…… "
A quick google translate gives "Travel, open the stars, and travel again".
This particular character "星" seems to be what translates to "star".

The "star" character appears in one of Aerith's sentences (Shinra tower cells):
" セトラの民、星より生まれ 星と語り、星を開く " which was translated to "The Cetra were born from the Planet, speak with the Planet and unlock the Planet."
A quick google translate gives "Cetra's people are born from stars, talk to the stars, and open the stars".

From what I can get through Google :
The word planet would translate to 惑星 (confusion + star)
The word earth would translate to 地球 (Earth + ball) or simply 地 (Earth)
The word land would translate to 土地 (soil + Earth)

Since the "star" kanji only appears in the kanji series which translates to planet (source google). Maybe it's more about a planet than an earth.
Could this recent tweet from Nojima be of some help here ?...

In the 2015 FF7 Remake trailer (english audio), one of the first sentences says "the memory of the star that threatened all" (obviously evoquing the meteor). The coresponding japanese subtitle line that is built in the video shows the same 星kanji. So maybe a star (or what has been translated to planet in the OG) refers to any sort of celestial body...

Thanks for looking into this. Yeah, that does make sense.

In the English translation of FFXIV planets are consistently referred to as ‘stars’ so I suspect this is due to the Japanese word for planet also meaning star. By this they’ve simply used one word to describe any celestial body, regardless of its particular form or individual definition.

It would seem that FFVII would have us consider ‘Planet’ in a cosmic sense rather than an ‘earthly’ sense. This makes sense given that space travel is a dominant theme in the game (not just Jenova but also Cosmo Canyon and Cid Highwind’s rocket program), so it is good that we can get some clarification on that.

As we came to the conclusion (on another thread) that when someone talks about the planet, they are actually talking about the Lifestream (well maybe without realizing it), it might be interesting to replace the word Planet with Lifestream in these sentences and try to see what this experience can bring us ! What could unlocking the lifestream mean ? Allowing it to leave?

That or unlocking the potential of the Lifestream/Planet. Maybe it was up to the Cetra to help channel the flow of the Lifestream into particular areas to direct life into them. Maybe they had to act out a ritual in order to ‘unlock’ the Lifestream and bring it closer to the surface to allow for plants to grow or something.

That’s my attempt at envisioning the canon, but with your interpretation of switching the words coupled with your theory, yeah. Possibly it could relate to the migration theory.

I finally read this entire discussion, it was looooooong but very interesting, especially your interventions (that were interesting !
I particularly liked how you brought Jenova into the equation, but I was surprised at the little reaction it caused. Especially since it could possibly have been developed as an argument in favor of Aerith's supposed Christian faith.

That thread was interesting times.
I haven't read through it in a while but if I remember rightly it was a very fast moving thread so some of the finer points did sometimes get overlooked. It's not going anywhere though, and the discussion is still relevant today so who knows if it'll get picked up on again.

Assuming that Mako is the term used to represent Lifestream/Spiritual energy in the fuel state and knowing that Shinra(kid) found a way to transform the flow from the farplane into usable energy(*),

(*) Nojima interview (source)
―Is there a connection, for example, with Shinra’s name, which of course reminds one of FFVII? The “last mission” line and Rin’s “I am not alone in my thinking” line from “Detective Rin” have strong implications.
Nojima: “As a matter of fact, yes. Shinra quits the Gullwings, receives enormous financial assistance from Rin and uses Vegnagun to extract mako energy from the Farplane. However, he can’t complete the system to utilize the energy in a single generation, and the Shin-Ra Company is built on another planet in the future once travel to distant planets is possible, and stuff like that … Those things happen about 1000 years after this story, though.”

I personally consider Nojima's statements to be an improvised retcon due to the resurgence of interest in FFVII because of the Compilation at the time. They wanted desperately to connect FFX’s universe with FFVII and so they found a way through the character Shinra. I think on many points it doesn't quite connect neatly, but it does at least enable us to think about the idea of past migrations and cosmic travel in antiquity which some of the text in the game might support (as above).


*

I’ve recently noticed other Greek letters in FFVII. I was looking into the appearance of the Mako reactors in the original game and found that there are some Greek letters above the cores.

At Mako Reactor 1 I can’t actually read the word but it looks like (μ) forms a part of it.

I can't read what follows as it is too blurry but what I see is this:

(μ)[-???] 1998
​

Maybe it could be one of the dates provided in timelines in Ultimanias? I had assumed until now that this dating system was invented for the Ultimanias to make it easier for people to track the chronology in the Compilation, but if this is a date like this then it might have been considered in the original game itself.

If true, this might mark a date. Maybe the date the reactor was built. I'm not sure. The year seems a bit late so it could always commemorate some extensive repair work.

Or it could be random entirely.

But at Mako Reactor 5 I can read ‘σμκινσ’.

Not that that σμκινσ really means anything as that isn’t a word… Transliterated into English that would be ‘smkins’ so I’m not sure what we can extract from that. I looked into it and apparently the filename for Sector 5’s Reactor is ‘smkin’ so it appears to relate to that in some way… But why label these maps ‘smkin’ in the first place?

The Greek letters at the Gold Saucer made more sense as they could spell out a word in English at least.

Unless they mean ‘smoking’ or it is to be a short form of ‘sector Mako inside' but that is clumsy and a bit of a stretch.

Finally, I also notice that the letter π appears on the elevator in Reactor 1 glowing in pink.

 

[Molosev]

Hi Dio !

We've pointed out a number of musical references recently regarding FFVII.

Some days ago someone on TheLifestream.net posted references to number 27 that he found here and there in the game (North Corel Reactor and Junon Airport ). Then another member replied that 27 is Sephiroth's age at the time of the game.

I looked for number 27 references on the internet. The most interesting one pointed to the 27 Club, basically a list of musicians that died at age 27.
As Sephiroth is kind of seen as a Rockstar in the game (I can't remember if it is said explicitly in the game or if it is a fan construction...), I thought that maybe he was meant to be made a new member of this club (in the developers mind).

Numbers, dates, reactors, music, all of this recalled me your last post here, that I didn't replied to yet.

Here's a quote of the "27 Club" page (wikipedia):
"Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison all died at the age of 27 between 1969 and 1971. At the time, the coincidence gave rise to some comment, but it was not until Kurt Cobain's 1994 death, at age 27, that the idea of a "27 Club" began to catch on in public perception."

4 initial names and the fifth that rounds a new myth brings us to Reactor number 5

I don't remember if there's a reactor labelled 1994, but reactor 5 is labelled 1997 "smkins".
Trying to search "sm" and "kins" references on the Nirvana wikipedia page brought me to "Smashing Pumpkins".

sm - ashing pump - kins

It seems like the activity of Smashing Pumpkins came to a halt in 1997 due to some member leaving the band (before a come back in 2005).

1994 is the year that gave birth to the Final Fantasy VII project's first steps.

Could it be that the Reactors are basically tombs or mausoleum for Rockstars/Bands ?
I thought that the numbers and findings were interesting enough so that I should share it with you.

I feel that I come with new fancy theories too often, I should probably need a Cure

Please tell me what you think about it !

 

[Dionysos]

Hi Dio !

We've pointed out a number of musical references recently regarding FFVII.

Some days ago someone on TheLifestream.net posted references to number 27 that he found here and there in the game (North Corel Reactor and Junon Airport ). Then another member replied that 27 is Sephiroth's age at the time of the game.

I looked for number 27 references on the internet. The most interesting one pointed to the 27 Club, basically a list of musicians that died at age 27.
As Sephiroth is kind of seen as a Rockstar in the game (I can't remember if it is said explicitly in the game or if it is a fan construction...), I thought that maybe he was meant to be made a new member of this club (in the developers mind).

Numbers, dates, reactors, music, all of this recalled me your last post here, that I didn't replied to yet.

Here's a quote of the "27 Club" page (wikipedia):
"Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison all died at the age of 27 between 1969 and 1971. At the time, the coincidence gave rise to some comment, but it was not until Kurt Cobain's 1994 death, at age 27, that the idea of a "27 Club" began to catch on in public perception."

4 initial names and the fifth that rounds a new myth brings us to Reactor number 5

I don't remember if there's a reactor labelled 1994, but reactor 5 is labelled 1997 "smkins".
Trying to search "sm" and "kins" references on the Nirvana wikipedia page brought me to "Smashing Pumpkins".

sm - ashing pump - kins

It seems like the activity of Smashing Pumpkins came to a halt in 1997 due to some member leaving the band (before a come back in 2005).

1994 is the year that gave birth to the Final Fantasy VII project's first steps.

Could it be that the Reactors are basically tombs or mausoleum for Rockstars/Bands ?
I thought that the numbers and findings were interesting enough so that I should share it with you.

I feel that I come with new fancy theories too often, I should probably need a Cure

Please tell me what you think about it !

I hadn’t noticed the recurrence of 27 before, but you are right!

Sephiroth was considered a hero and was idolised by many. So yeah, this is certainly comparable to a rockstar. From that point of view it fits that he’d be like a Club 27 member in FFVII’s universe. Since the Nibelheim incident was promptly buried by Shinra, many regular people wouldn’t have known that he’d turned bad. Even if they did, his turn towards evil could be seen as part of the tragedy of his untimely demise.

The appearances of these numbers at the Corel Reactor and Junon airport are probably a coincidence and there might be nothing to directly connect them to Sephiroth, but it is a nice thought. If not this, I’m curious to know what else 27 could represent and why Square Enix have landed on this number twice. It's not simply reusing the resources as the number 7 is of a different style in each image. They've consciously (and fairly prominently) added the number to both scenes, it seems.

Figuratively, the idea of the Reactors being a mausoleum or tomb of rockstars or Sephiroth is fascinating. The Nibelheim Reactor could be, of a sorts, since it is here where Sephiroth ‘died’ and entered the Lifestream directly.

In general, the Mako reactors do have a relationship with the dead since there is literally a stream of Underworld inside them. In a sense, Sephiroth plunges into the Underworld at the age of 27 when he is defeated during the Nibelheim incident. That particular reactor becomes a sort of morbid memorial to the whole disaster.

But in another way the Shinra-built Reactors aren’t so much the tombs of the dead, but the tomb raiders of the dead. Shinra have drilled down to get to the Lifestream and are pumping out soul-stuff to be converted into energy.

As for the rockstar idea, the creators of FFVII are certainly clued into the world of Western rock music (and by this I don’t just mean Nobuo Uematsu’s well-known love of rock music). There’s Loveless, originally a reference to My Bloody Valentine’s album which FFVII turned into their own epic poem / play with significance in the FFVII mythos.

The Compilation novel The Kids Are Alright: A Turks Side Story is filled with references to The Who. The Kids Are Alright (the title of the novel) is a reference to the track with the same name on the album My Generation. Part One of the novel is titled See Me, Feel Me (the title of a track on the album Tommy) and Part Two is titled Who Are You? (the name of a track on an album with the same name). Even the protagonist Evan Townshend appears to be a tribute to The Who band member Pete Townshend (I've not seen it confirmed anywhere, but with the rest considered it does seem highly likely). The novel’s author Kazushige Nojima (who also worked as scenario writer on FFVII and the FFVII Remake) must be quite a big fan of The Who.

Rock music does appear to be a recurring element of the FFVII universe.


-

About Greek letters, I found this in the Remake:

Spoiler: FFVII Remake - light spoiler

So they openly use the calendar system with the Greek letters which we discussed in this thread in the world in the Remake. Looks like they've put a lot of effort into making everything fit neatly into place.

 

[Molosev]

Figuratively, the idea of the Reactors being a mausoleum or tomb of rockstars or Sephiroth is fascinating. The Nibelheim Reactor could be, of a sorts, since it is here where Sephiroth ‘died’ and entered the Lifestream directly.

It could be interesting to think that the spirit of Sephiroth was buried in reactor n°1 and that by destroying it AVALANCHE released it

There's this line that's told to Cloud before he sets the bomb and that I always found strange:

Watch out!
This isn't just a reactor!!

And there's this other line that is read by Sephiroth in the Shinra Mansions's library:

"X year, X month, X day.
Jenova Project approved.
The use of Mako reactor 1 approved for use..."

So there surely is something special about this reactor. It is linked to Jenova apparently and Sephiroth is Jenova's child.
I have the feeling that nothing related to Jenova would have happened if Avalanche didn't have destroy Reactor 1.

This vaguely could make an interesting echo with the charges that are brought against Tifa when she falls in the Lifestream (Mideel).

Tifa

Huh...... what......? Who......?
Who is it......? I can't hear......

Suddenly she turns around.

Wait a minute......! I don't know anything about that!
No! It's not me......! I'd never do anything like that!!

She puts her hands to her head.

No! Stop it......!! Stay back!

She starts running.

Somebody...... help! Please!!

Maybe Tifa is the one that brought the idea of destroying this particular reactor (on purpose ?).
I always wondered what these accusations were about...

 

[Dionysos]

It could be interesting to think that the spirit of Sephiroth was buried in reactor n°1 and that by destroying it AVALANCHE released it

There's this line that's told to Cloud before he sets the bomb and that I always found strange:
"Watch out!
This isn't just a reactor!!"

That is interesting.

My impression of the "This isn't just a reactor!" lines would be that it was intended to mean ‘This is really people’s lives we are messing with, etc’. It isn't just a reactor because the people rely on it, and also this is technically 'soul stuff'. This is one of the message Cloud hears or feels in his head, so it might be him reminding himself subconsciously about the nature of Mako. He might have forgotten / pretends not to care in his present but in his subconscious he knows more.

But you are right as well. The same subconscious part of Cloud which is voicing concerns to Cloud here may be reliving some of his experiences at Nibelheim where the reactor was also used for terrible experiments, and also might remember that Sephiroth plunged into the exposed Mako at a reactor.

Deep down Cloud knows that Avalanche needs to be careful about setting explosives near Mako. Sephiroth’s soul, as far as Cloud's subconscious might be aware, could also be swimming around in the Lifestream amongst the dead (though in reality his phyiscal body was crystalised in the North Crater).

And there's this other line that is read by Sephiroth in the Shinra Mansions's library:
"X year, X month, X day.
Jenova Project approved.
The use of Mako reactor 1 approved for use..."

So there surely is something special about this reactor. It is linked to Jenova apparently and Sephiroth is Jenova's child.

I have the feeling that nothing related to Jenova would have happened if Avalanche didn't have destroy Reactor 1.

The timing of this is fascinating.

I wonder though whether this refers to the first Mako reactor in Midgar, or the first Mako reactor in general. The Mako reactors at Corel, Nibelheim, Junon, etc, are all implied to be older than the ones we actually see in Midgar.

In a sense, this is true. If Avalanche hadn’t planned the bombing mission then Barret wouldn’t have employed Cloud and most of the events of FFVII as we know them would not have happened. Maybe Sephiroth's plans could still be carried out in the end, but maybe he would have had to have altered them significantly. The Jenova breakout might have been more difficult. The handover of the Black Materia would have gone down differently since Cloud and Aerith might have remained strangers.

This vaguely could make an interesting echo with the charges that are brought against Tifa when she falls in the Lifestream (Mideel).

Maybe Tifa is the one that brought the idea of destroying this particular reactor (on purpose ?).
I always wondered what these accusations were about...

I think it is left up to the player to imagine what Tifa saw when the screen is black during those scenes. Maybe she saw the lives affected by the bombing of reactor 1. Though Tifa is absent during that mission, it is Tifa who put Cloud's name forward and convinced Barret to hire him for Avalanche. So it could be that.

Or it could be Reactor 5.

Or it could be moments from her youth with Cloud and the other kids. Or something entirely different.

I think that might be left up to us.

 

[Molosev]

My impression of the "This isn't just a reactor!" lines would be that it was intended to mean ‘This is really people’s lives we are messing with, etc’. It isn't just a reactor because the people rely on it, and also this is technically 'soul stuff'. This is one of the message Cloud hears or feels in his head, so it might be him reminding himself subconsciously about the nature of Mako. He might have forgotten / pretends not to care in his present but in his subconscious he knows more.

It could well be Cloud's consciousness but if your impression is right (This is really people’s lives we are messing with) maybe the line would suit the Lifestream itself more. The Lifestream is said to have been able to talk to the Cetras.

I wonder though whether this refers to the first Mako reactor in Midgar, or the first Mako reactor in general. The Mako reactors at Corel, Nibelheim, Junon, etc, are all implied to be older than the ones we actually see in Midgar.

This is what someone on a french forum answered to me and that feels a very legitimate assumption, that "Reactor 1" refers to the first reactor ever built. This guy told me that he knows from the Compilation Nibelheim is the first reactor that was built but he did not pointed to a precise quote.

However I find the fact that the date was hidden (X) adds an extra dose of mystery to these informations. The Midgar reactors have clear date labels, which makes me think that the doubt, the confusion that result from the possibility of these different assumptions was intentional.
Moreover I would find strange that Shinra developed their Mako technology thanks to Jenova, which is what the "fascinating timing" could lead to think.

A question came to my mind but is probably completely wrong: "Are reactors really used to produce electricity ?"
We know now that in the past these people used other means (coal, oil) to get a result.
From what we can see in the Shinra tower's advertisement, Mako is burned in naturally aspirated engines, at least the combustion process is very similar to our own oil engines. So we would have a new revolutionnary energy source that would be used the same way as the old one...
I wonder what we could get by burning uranium ore in this kind of engine, because as we pointed out earlier Mako reactors seem to refer to Nuclear power as well.

I've just started to play Remake.

Spoiler

As the game opens, we can see a little girl looking directly at a Mako reactor. I have the impression that what comes out of the chimney looks more like an expulsion (release) of vibrant Lifestream than ashes.

Would reactors not rather be machines to filter the Lifestream ?
The kind of job that would go pretty well for the master of hell and his subordinates I think. (plus this could easily link to "Parking")
At some point, if the Cetras started to harbor impure thoughts (sedentarization), maybe the Lifestream needed to set up filters in order to try to stay pure.

Speaking of ashes, about Smashing Pumpkins, have you noticed that between "sm" and "kins", we can read "ashing pump" ?

I think it is left up to the player to imagine what Tifa saw when the screen is black during those scenes. Maybe she saw the lives affected by the bombing of reactor 1. Though Tifa is absent during that mission, it is Tifa who put Cloud's name forward and convinced Barret to hire him for Avalanche. So it could be that.

Yes we can't be sure, besides I need to use these "accusations" against Tifa in another theory maybe a little more successful.

 

[Dionysos]

It could well be Cloud's consciousness but if your impression is right (This is really people’s lives we are messing with) maybe the line would suit the Lifestream itself more. The Lifestream is said to have been able to talk to the Cetras.

On that point I guess it depends again on whether there is a distinction between the Lifestream and the Planet. Whether the semi-consciousness/will of the Planet is the Lifestream, or if the Lifestream is only one aspect which could be separate from the Planet. And then it depends on whether the Cetra were correct in their belief that they were conversing with the Planet (the compilations does appear to want us to believe that they were correct as it repeats this point many times).

A question came to my mind but is probably completely wrong: "Are reactors really used to produce electricity ?"
We know now that in the past these people used other means (coal, oil) to get a result.
From what we can see in the Shinra tower's advertisement, Mako is burned in naturally aspirated engines, at least the combustion process is very similar to our own oil engines. So we would have a new revolutionnary energy source that would be used the same way as the old one...
I wonder what we could get by burning uranium ore in this kind of engine, because as we pointed out earlier Mako reactors seem to refer to Nuclear power as well.

I've just started to play Remake.

Spoiler

As the game opens, we can see a little girl looking directly at a Mako reactor. I have the impression that what comes out of the chimney looks more like an expulsion (release) of vibrant Lifestream than ashes.

Would reactors not rather be machines to filter the Lifestream ?
The kind of job that would go pretty well for the master of hell and his subordinates I think. (plus this could easily link to "Parking")
At some point, if the Cetras started to harbor impure thoughts (sedentarization), maybe the Lifestream needed to set up filters in order to try to stay pure.

Yeah rather than being burned or anything, the Lifestream instead appears to be pumped and processed. It does produce electricity (the very name of the company Shinra Electric Power Company stresses that they are committed to providing cheaper, affordable electricity) but I don't believe that the full particulars of the procedure are elaborated on. Some of it produces electricity (we see mako fuel cells on a variety of objects and vehicles in the Remake), other mako also gets compressed into materia.

The electricity angle is how President Shinra made his money, and it is the vision for a grander tomorrow which attracts people to live in Midgar and other Shinra-owned towns. He had other ambitions too (which we know about) but it was the electricity and making living conditions better (in theory - the people in the slums might disagree) which enables Shinra to keep people believing that Shinra has their best interests in mind. In the Remake we see a lot of propaganda along these lines - from posters to news reports, and many people really do believe it.

Mako isn’t the only energy resource available to them, as you point out. After all, Barret was initially involved with coal before Corel Town's reactor was built and in a post-Meteor world in the Compilation Barret is investigating oil as an alternative energy source. Mako probably is cleaner (in privileged areas) than oil/coal in terms of more visible air pollution and so would appear to be better, except for the fact that it is the lifeforce of the Planet and its use is killing the land.

Speaking of ashes, about Smashing Pumpkins, have you noticed that between "sm" and "kins", we can read "ashing pump" ?

Ha ha ha. Oh wow. That’s freaky.