Heaven, False Sense of Humility?

[CassinoChips]

It's not about punishment. He's not punishing you for disbelieving in him. He's just offered you a choice: Believe in him and join him in heaven, or go your own way. A lot of people choose the latter, which unfortunately leads to hell.

That's pretty much the definition of a punishment. Just because the choice is with a person doesn't change the fact that God is handing out the punishment. That'd be like saying if I get sent to prison for murder, it's not the government that's punishing me because it was my choice to murder person X. No, I'm still being punished for my misdeed. Disbelieving in God leads to the punishment of Hell. God has detailed this punishment. It is God's punishment.

 

[Stoic Hero]

commanding a man to sacrifice his son. that isnt goodness. allowing your own son to be tortured to death. that isnt goodness.

so either god is not good, or our definitions of good differ...somewhat.

That was a test. Notice that, when he was going to carry it out, God sent an angel to stop him from doing it. The test was: was he willing to do anything for God? Even kill his own son? The answer: yes. God never intended for the boy to die.

God could have stopped Christ's death at any time. Christ could have called on thousands of angels to come to his rescue. He didn't, though, because his death served a purpose. His death allows us to be able to enter heaven. Without Christ, we would all go to hell. Christ gave his life for the lives of many. I'd say that's a good and honorable way to die, wouldn't you? To give your life for someone else is one of the greatest gifts you can give.

I'd say your definition of good is different than God's, and that's a problem if God truly is absolute goodness. And who are we to call out God and say that he isn't good? I'm sure he could defend himself from any and every accusation, if he so chose to.

That's pretty much the definition of a punishment. Just because the choice is with a person doesn't change the fact that God is handing out the punishment. That'd be like saying if I get sent to prison for murder, it's not the government that's punishing me because it was my choice to murder person X. No, I'm still being punished for my misdeed. Disbelieving in God leads to the punishment of Hell. God has detailed this punishment. It is God's punishment.

Okay, but the point I was trying to get across is the choice. You always have that choice. It isn't as if God is forcing your hand. Quite the opposite, actually.

 

[Will Graham]

So before Jesus Christ everyone went to hell? So God created millions of people who automatically went to Hell. If God is the creator and endlessly good why did he make demons and the Devil?

 

[CassinoChips]

Multi-quoting and/or editing > double-posting.

Okay, but the point I was trying to get across is the choice. You always have that choice. It isn't as if God is forcing your hand. Quite the opposite, actually.

So it's an ogre's choice then? Because that's not much of a choice, really. You can take the blue pill or the red pill, but if you take the red pill, I will beat the everloving snot out of you for 1000 years. Your choice though.

 

[Donald Trump]

That was a test. Notice that, when he was going to carry it out, God sent an angel to stop him from doing it. The test was: was he willing to do anything for God? Even kill his own son? The answer: yes. God never intended for the boy to die.

God is omnipotent so why would he need to test Job?
It sounds almost as if god is a sadist.

I'd say your definition of good is different than God's, and that's a problem if God truly is absolute goodness. And who are we to call out God and say that he isn't good? I'm sure he could defend himself from any and every accusation, if he so chose to.

Who says that god is absolute goodness? Does god say it? Because if he does, he's biased so we can't take his word on that.
And if god doesn't say it, then who does?

 

[Stoic Hero]

The devil and his demons are fallen angels. They, like us, had a choice. God thought that they were worth creating, even though he knew the outcome. I do not know why he felt that way, but if God thinks something is worth doing, I'm sure it is. Remember: God also knew that Adam and Eve would disobey him, yet he chose to make them anyway. If he had not done so, we would not be alive today.

Yes, before Christ everyone went to a place very similar to purgatory. If you've ever read Dante's Inferno, it's kind of like the first level of hell. It's somewhat of a waiting zone that was designed for believers to go before Christ. When Christ died on the cross, he descended into hell and opened the gate. He invited everyone who believed into heaven with him.

God never abandons those who place their faith in him. He never has.

Sorry, Terrible Terry Tate, I'm speaking with multiple people and it's a little hard to keep track of As far as your comment, I think God gives you a little better forewarning than "Hey man, red pill or blue pill. Your choice." There's a very detailed book called the Bible that lays out exactly what he expects and why he expects it. The Gospel, especially, is important.

Belle and Sebastian Even though God knows the future, he often allows things to play out because then, they really happened. Think about it. If I say I would die for you, but never do, did I really mean it? We'll never know. But if I actually did step in front of a bullet and die for you, there's no question that I would, indeed, die for you, because I did it. In the same way, there's no question of his unwavering faith to God, since he carried out what God asked him to do. God had to allow that to happen or else there would be no proof.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

so the test of goodness is "lets see if theyll do something very bad and if they're willing to do it for me then they are good".

this is just a case of thou shalt not, unless i say. thats a twisted test and i dont think its something that christians should take pride in. this thing you worship could only be thought up by the cruel, mental, greedy tribesman who wrote the story of the man who would jump off a bridge if he was asked to. where do the other religions fit in? how many heavens are there?

also might i add that the catholic church has denounced purgatory. it does not exist (not that i would have believed in it prior to the good old popey saying so). it would seem youre confused. even with your own "facts"

if god knew adam and eve would disobey him why did he get angry at them? all these strange contradictions. its almost like your holy book is comprised of hundreds of stories written by a load of different people at different times. it just...doesnt make sense

 

[Stoic Hero]

It's not purgatory. I said a place similar to purgatory. Believe me, I'm not confused. The place is called sheol or hades, which means "place of the dead." It's a temporary place for souls waiting to get into heaven. Revelations 20: 11-15 makes a clear distinction between hell and hades.

The test is not "lets see if they'll do bad" the test is "let's see if they have enough faith to do so." The only reason he carried it out is because he knew God would be able to save the boy. He could even raise him from the dead, if he chose. Remember, what seems fair and permanent to you are but a blink of an eye to God. The earth is weak and dying. Heaven will remain forever, and Abraham knew that God could take care of Isaac forever, regardless of circumstances.

I fail to see how it is a contradiction? Just because he knew that it would happen? God hates evil. He absolutely despises it. Of course he's angry when people sin.

 

[CassinoChips]

Sorry, @Terrible Terry Tate, I'm speaking with multiple people and it's a little hard to keep track of

No problem.

As far as your comment, I think God gives you a little better forewarning than "Hey man, red pill or blue pill. Your choice." There's a very detailed book called the Bible that lays out exactly what he expects and why he expects it. The Gospel, especially, is important.

God could throw in all the extra info he wants/you want. What it boils down to is that you don't really have a choice in the matter if you don't want to supposedly burn in Hell for the totality of your supposed afterlife. That's not a choice, that's extortion.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

but hes goodness you said. pure goodness. should he not just turn the other cheek when he's slapped in the face? i think you're just starting to trip over whatever it is youre trying to preach here. youve gone completely off topic to tell us how much we should love god and how its not his fault that theres no evidence for his existence but if we choose to think for ourselves then its our fault we are condemned to hell - a place which in all likelihood does not exist

its time to let other people have their go now!

 

[Stoic Hero]

The Killer Whale What it boils down to is this: You have a set idea as to what "goodness" is. You're unwavering, in that regard. I can never convince you of God's goodness unless you open your mind a bit.

Now, as to the situation we were talking about (Adam and Eve), how could God possibly be good if he looked the other way? He told them upfront "do whatever you want, but don't eat that fruit, or you will surely die." And they ate the fruit. What choice did God have? He told them specifically not to do something and they did it anyway. What kind of "good" parent would he be, to turn the other cheek?

 

[Marquis of Granby]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i understand now. so instead of turning the other cheek - as he preaches we should - he cast them aside. and because of them every human being since is born into sin which they must then beg him to forgive. of course thats much better parenting.

i wont open my mind to that tripe, i see no evidence for any god as i've already said so why would i open my mind to the goodness of something i cannot believe the existence of? its sick and twisted and as they say on the dragons' den. thats why im out!

 

[Stoic Hero]

You're being sarcastic and I'm done discussing this with you.

 

[AerithG]

Nathan Drake

Pat Robinson, like everyone else, can certainly go to Hell. Yes, what he's done is sinful. He stole from people and used the money for his and his wife's personal gain and lavishness. Like it's been stated, all sin is taken into account equally, because even the smallest sin is imperfection. However, God doesn't ask for us to be perfect, but to rather make progression and be saved by God's grace. We can be better people, but if you keep on doing what you're doing without a second thought or a care in the world, then you weren't saved and you're not going to Heaven. Simple as that. In Pat Robinson's case, he was not being Christ like, and yes, like everyone else in the world should, he deserves to go to Hell, but we all have the ability to choose our destination, in the Christian belief.

Starfruit: About the Catholic deal...I'm not really into it, but you never know, you could be right. Like I've said, I don't know exactly what God's plan is for me or anyone else. All I know is that I want to believe in Him, I'm supposed to, I'm supposed to do His good work, and to be a good person, and that's what I plan to do. I act on what I do know about the Word and I think that doing those three things are all I really need to worry about (along with following the commandments).

 

[Shu]

I guess the bottom line is.. why is there a heaven at all then? Did you ever stop to think how flawed an afterlife is? That's the only thing that really distances me from practicing a religion. It doesn't teach true humility, in fact it literally says to stay away from non believers in the bible.

I thought I was a christian around the age of 8. My friend brought up a good point to me. He said.. you know what's messed up? We go to the same church, but my grandmother is muslim, and even though she's the most kind person you've ever met, she'll never go to heaven.

I stepped back and said.. I guess not.

God makes exceptions? No. John 3:16 says otherwise. I can cherry pick quite a bit of the bible due to I have read the damn thing, I had to go to youth group, I had to know all the damn books of the bible like the back of my hand in my early youth. For what though?

So I can believe that once I die I will one day see my friends/family in heaven, due to they were non believers?

You know when I told my paps at the age of 18 that I wasn't a christian, he's been sending me Bible versus via email sense. I'm 27 now. He takes me to a church, where I sit there and dissect the pastor 15 different ways, due to how he tries to turn his testimony into something with the versus he reads. It's called cherry picking. You can't twist a verse into 2 different meanings.. that makes it fallible.

Hey the bible has some good books, like psalms/proverbs.. It'll teach someone some decent stuff, but a lot of that is philosophy. If you want to have someone pick apart your religion, you start throwing exclusions to people. If you don't believe in my son, you will go to hell. Hell.. that's an interesting place to think about. I thank the Christian/Jewish God for coming up with that concept. It has brought about some pretty interesting movies due to it. I mean who doesn't like the Devil's advocate.

Heaven and Hell though? Heaven.. why? I don't have to fear death, even if I don't believe the place. Why? Due to when my life over.. my body will rest, and my brain will finally stop thinking. I won't be there to enjoy it though. I'll go back to the earth.

Heaven.. does nothing for me. It puts a nice place in the sky. It puts all these literal pictures in folks heads.. like floating clouds.. or being able to fly and crap. Heaven will always be a "reward" or at least something that Christians will work towards. Why? Why not do something for your fellow man, and not read something that was translated from Latin.. The bible could of been made for stories, but I highly doubt they were made to be literals. Son of god.. Lazarus raising from the dead.. Jesus hanging out with prostitutes and 12 merry men.. Walking on water.. Burning bushes.. Water into wine.. miracles? It makes folks like Tim Tebow pray for a touch down.

Have you ever heard of a Christian who does not pray or choose not to congregate with his fellow man? It would be interesting to know.

The reason I attacked the Catholic church and the priests, well it's primarily due to if some did it, it is possible others did too. I mean no offense, you either castrate yourself by taking the vow of celibacy.. or get your jollies off somewhere.. and these sick dudes took alter boys as their meat puppets. Sick.

That's why I try to live every day.. fuller then the other. I never know when someone will tap on my shoulder take me out of this game. I'll be dead one day. So for now, I share the love with my fellow man.

 

[Donald Trump]

I share the love with my fellow man.

That's what some of the Catholic priests do.

In Pat Robinson's case, he was not being Christ like, and yes, like everyone else in the world should, he deserves to go to Hell, but we all have the ability to choose our destination, in the Christian belief.

The problem is that despite all of Pat's sins, he still has a greater chance of going to heaven than I do. God can't care much about humanity if he is condemning the vast majority of it to eternal suffering just because they believe in a different god, or because they're rational.

@Belle and Sebastian Even though God knows the future, he often allows things to play out because then, they really happened. Think about it. If I say I would die for you, but never do, did I really mean it? We'll never know. But if I actually did step in front of a bullet and die for you, there's no question that I would, indeed, die for you, because I did it. In the same way, there's no question of his unwavering faith to God, since he carried out what God asked him to do. God had to allow that to happen or else there would be no proof.

I find the idea that god requires proof ever so slightly ironic.
However God is omnipotent, he does not need proof because he knows everything. The only point would be to prove to Job that Job will do anything and everything God asks. That's a humiliation, he is showing to Job that Job has no freewill.

And what about God's favourite bunch of guys the Jews? His chosen people, before Jesus, God's chosen people well to Hell. Do Jews still go to Hell since they refuse to acknowledge that Jesus is the son of god. If they aren't, why not? If they are, then how can they be God's favourite dudes?

 

[Will Graham]

Ig God is omniscient then he is creating people that re definitely going to hell, and he lets this happen just to prove that he is omniscient? That makes absolutely no sense

To go with what someone mentioned about even having a heaven, why does he have heaven and Earth? If we were made just to glorify him, why does he need to send us to Earth to do that, why is heaven our reward to return to?

Dante's inferno was written by Dante in the 14th century, it has no bearing on the bible, so why on Earth would you pay attention to it?

Satan and Lucifer are not the same entity, you know that I assume. So why did God create the Devil in the first place? A being of pure evil always going against god

You say the bad things humans do are human nature, so why did he give us a plan with so many natural disasters? Also, why did God put the snake in the Garden of Eden? It's ridiculous that he expected them not to fail, in fact he would have known they'd fail as he is omniscient. Yet he still had to let it happen, so it'd really happen?

Heaven is based on your relationship with God. I believe God doesn't want people who do good works. Anyone can do good works, for a reward or for a safety net or otherwise. I think God wants people who do good works because it's the right thing to do. Because you don't walk by your fellow man without helping. Those are the people that go to heaven. Am I one of them? Not yet. At least, not quite. I'm definitely seeing progress, and I think that's what being a Christian is truly about. Progression. Not perfection.

no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:16-20

 

[coffeecup]

I don't know about scapegoat. But I see that heaven, hell, the greatness of God, etc… are just outdated attempts at justifying ethical conduct. So instead of a scapegoat, I think it would be more accurate to term it as a justification and rationale towards defining "right" conduct. (Now there are other reasons pointing to the origin of the ideas of "god" or "heaven" but I'm going to just sideline those points for this post.)

You've got to remember that the fine-tuned method of philosophy or logic was in a very premature (or nonexistent) stage in the past. Nowadays there's deontological ethics, utilitarianism, and all other forms of ethical philosophy that go far and in between. And the arguments have progressively become more and more complex. But the similarity between this and religion is that they all aim at the same thing: defining ethical (or moral) conduct.

So heaven isn't really a scapegoat imo, it's just an attempt to justify good behavior at a premature stage in ethical philosophy. This goes along with heaven, the fear/grace of God, and whatever else that someone may term as a reward or safety net. Since in the past it was difficult to rationalize why certain conduct was good, the Bible gives us a nice and easy way to justify why certain conduct is "good" or "bad" (to put it bluntly, because God says so).

It also gives us a very easy answer to the purpose for life. But that discussion isn't really relevant to the OPs thread .

 

[Shu]

God is absolute goodness. There is no evil in him at all. The book of Job delves into this. Job was losing everything and his wife told him to "curse God and die." But Job responded "If we expect good from God, why should we not expect evil?" And later in the book, God spoke with Job. He let him know that, sometimes, evil things may happen to you that seem way beyond your control. But he has a plan, and those that believe will eventually be happy and righteous and everything secret will be revealed to them. God himself does not cause or send evil.

I would love to see this apply to you though. If it doesn't work out, people will always say.. "God works in mysterious ways" and pull out the one of many versus to back it. In additional, say a terminal disease.. like cancer. Whether someone dies or lives.. they still say, God had plans for them. So each person is a beautiful and unique snowflake, and has the ability to go to Heaven though, IF! they choose christ as their savior and let him forgive their sins.

Furthermore, God created all things, did he not? That means, Luscifer was in fact of his image as well. If he knew all things, he knew that he created evil. So in all rationality God = Lucifer.

By giving Lucifer a name, that was beside the point. By saying he was pure evil, that was beside the point, because guess what. So was God then. So God in turn created Hell.

If everything was created by him. The only reason for Hell in the first place was to put the fear of god in men, and to let folks know there was consequences for doing bad. (old testament)

Then in the new testament.. it misconstrued things even more. By putting Jesus there, it was like.. you can now do all bad things, yet if you believe in him, you can get away with murder. Hence the division among Jews and Christians. Old testament vs New. Who is right and who is wrong?

Man (adam) was in his image in Genesis but Jesus was his incarnate in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. What's the point of putting a man on earth as his son, if everything was known. Jesus mentioned many times that he knew of his death before he was even crucified.

Conclusively let me get back to my original point. Heaven was only put there to reward those who were devout. If you didn't believe in Heaven, you go to Hell?

Let me put this into perspective. Today's day in age, there are a lot more atheists and agnostics, that don't even mention the bible or a god to their children. Does that mean due to the original sin that they are born with, that they will never see the light of Heaven? If their child doesn't even know what a god is, does that make them damned from the womb?

I'm not condemning Christianity as a whole, because there are some good values, just like the Qur'an if followed properly, but I think the only person that should be responsible for your faith is you. I shouldn't have to hear about it like it was something bad I didn't follow even though I was brought up with it.

 

[Will Graham]

No one is condemning you to hell except yourself. You've been offered a choice. You can't get into heaven by doing good works. I can't stress this enough. It's not about good works. It never was. None of us would get in. You can't expect God to give you a pass just because you do some good. The whole point is loving God. If you reject his love, you've no one to blame but yourself. He's offered it to you. He's not being cruel by sending you to hell. Hell is a place without God, which is what you really want, right?

Well according to the bible

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24

And that is not up to you to interpret

"no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:16-20

This is the way it is laid down in the bible, and nothing you say will change that as

"the Scripture cannot be broken" John 10:35 b