Hojo. Somethin' Just Ain't Addin' Up

[The Witch]

Stop it I'm so confused! Does that mean Sephiroth was forced to forget certain parts of his past, too? *is still confused*

 

[Saints&Storms]

Maybe Sephiroth was mind fucking Cloud, I mean he is a bad guy, but that seems like a shitty rebuttal for the confusing sonuvabitch.

Still leaves a great many questions left unanswered I think.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Saying you brought something to life, and saying you created them are not the same thing, Hojo literally says he "Brought him to life" :dave:

Hojo's ego, again. Hojo, however, should not be taken as a reliable source of information. This was the man who wanted to crossbreed a humanoid and a felinoid by physical means, after all.
He's also prone to exaggerate statements like 'reborn', 'born anew' and the like, even when the situation doesn't call for it.

Zack was experimented on, but where do you add up he was made into a Clone? Beside from the retcon'd games, lets follow on the original, yeah?

Everyone captured at Nibelheim was made into a Clone. He was the other failure. You can read about Cloud and Zack if you revisit the ShinRa manor basement on the third disc. That's no Retcon. He was a failed Clone attempt, but then, so was Cloud.

Even Sephiroth says Cloud had no name, hence having no past. He was created from Tifa's memories

Faux Cloud was created, in a large part, from Tifa's memories, alongside his own, Zack's and some external manipulation.
But here's the thing. SEPHIROTH HAS EVERY REASON TO LIE TO CLOUD. So he tells Cloud parts of the truth, lies in other places, and destroys his will.

But Cloud did not spring to life 5 years before the game. The Cloud of the present is the same physical person as the Cloud who wanted to impress Tifa on the water tower, the one who failed to get into Soldier, who was friends with Zack, who fought Sephiroth.
All those memories were his. He's no genetic duplicate, grown in a vat. Not only does the game preclude that, but everything outside of the game since Dismantling has made it impossible as well.

Cloud is a Sephiroth Clone, but he's still Cloud Strife of Nibelheim, not something Hojo made whole cloth.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Cloud remembers events that only Cloud could have remembered, from before the Nibelheim event. He was not created in a lab. Hojo is mistaken or lying.

I know you don't like me or want to trust anything I say because I tell you you're wrong, Cali, but I don't deliberately give anybody the bum steer and I'm very familiar with the subject matter.

 

[Channizard]

Wow, Channi, you explained that perfectly.
That actually makes perfect sense, too. Why are you so awesome?

May I have permission to post this somewhere else? I think it's the best explination of for this so far.

I make stuff up and make it sound good. butrly, from what I remember of that scene, that's the implications I got of Hojo 'bringing Cloud to life'..

Yeah if you wanna share it around, go ahead.

Saying you brought something to life, and saying you created them are not the same thing, Hojo literally says he "Brought him to life" :dave:

Because Cloud would have died otherwise. Hojo brought Cloud BACK to life, sure.. because otherwise we'd have no game.

Zack was experimented on, but where do you add up he was made into a Clone? Beside from the retcon'd games, lets follow on the original, yeah?

Well Zack died.. They were both pretty much made up to be Sephiroth clones because (with help) they managed to survive Sephiroth's attacks. Normal people couldn't live after the shit they went through. So using their already insurmountable power, Hojo wanted to create more Sephiroth's.. considering the real one went bat shit insane and jumped into Mako and supposedly died.. he wanted a new one, one that would maybe follow his orders.

Sephiroth
"Ha, ha, ha...... Think, Cloud!"
"...Cloud? Ha, ha, ha...... Oh, excuse me. You never had a name."

Is this during the Nibelheim incident flashback? Because then Cloud was just a grunt. Grunt's don't have names they're just... grunts. Cloud was an unknown person at the time, not even Tifa knew it was him (until later).

Sephiroth
"Cloud... Don't blame Tifa."
"The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the
power of Jenova."
"Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating
you."

This is really.. dodgey, even by 'creation' standards. This is also Nibelheim moment when Cloud finds out he wasn't really Zack and endured as much as he thought, right? I think Sephiroth is telling Cloud that The Jenova cells merged with his memories of seeing what had happened first hand, but ALSO with Tifa's memories (as she saw what happened to Zack, some moments where Cloud wasn't there) but also her memories of wanting Cloud to be a First Class. So by combining all of these memories, it 'created' the Fake Cloud, the one we're first introduced to, the one who says he was there for everything.

 

[The Witch]

This is really.. dodgey, even by 'creation' standards. This is also Nibelheim moment when Cloud finds out he wasn't really Zack and endured as much as he thought, right? I think Sephiroth is telling Cloud that The Jenova cells merged with his memories of seeing what had happened first hand, but ALSO with Tifa's memories (as she saw what happened to Zack, some moments where Cloud wasn't there) but also her memories of wanting Cloud to be a First Class. So by combining all of these memories, it 'created' the Fake Cloud, the one we're first introduced to, the one who says he was there for everything.

So, when he says "creating you" that means his mental self, right?

Because Cloud would have died otherwise. Hojo brought Cloud BACK to life, sure..

So THAT'S what he means, then. I suppose Cloud was dieing then, makes sense that's what he meant.

PS, I ASKED A QUESTION. I obviously don't know what's right, so how can I be wrong? Oh, the logic in that.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well Zack died.. They were both pretty much made up to be Sephiroth clones because (with help) they managed to survive Sephiroth's attacks. Normal people couldn't live after the shit they went through. So using their already insurmountable power, Hojo wanted to create more Sephiroth's.. considering the real one went bat shit insane and jumped into Mako and supposedly died.. he wanted a new one, one that would maybe follow his orders.

No, this part is mistaken, though the rest is sound enough. The point of the Sephiroth Copy project wasn't to create a 'New' Sephiroth to control, it was to test the Reunion Hypothesis.

That's why he released all the other Sephiroth clones into the wild as it were. He had to track their movements.

Cali, I did not say I was calling you wrong now. I said because I tell you you are wrong, which I do do, and which you quite often reply to with open hostility, even when you are factually wrong.

 

[Channizard]

So, when he says "creating you" that means his mental self, right?

...In a way, yeah. Ryu's said it differently than I did but slightly similar all the same. I don't think that Sephiroth lied to Cloud though... Nobody really did. Tifa withheld information from him, but Cloud just created his own mental manifestation from Zack and Tifa's main memories of being there, and being Zack.. which is who the 'fake' Cloud is during the first part of the game, which is who Sephiroth addresses during all these confrontations.

It isn't until after the Lifestream when Cloud's head is actually sorted out, that being stop referring to him as a creation and a clone.. Before all that, he more or less is.

So THAT'S what he means, then. I suppose Cloud was dieing then, makes sense that's what he meant.

Did you see that sword sticking right through his body? There's no way he would survive that without a little help from Hojo.. even in Mako stasis for 5 years he was still weak. Zack, afaik, was already injected with Mako as he was a first Class. AND he didn't take as bad a blow as Cloud did, he just got slashed at, and collapsed down a flight of stairs (or into a monster chamber, depending on your retcon). I'm sure Cloud was dying, nobody else was as badly wounded as he was.

No, this part is mistaken, though the rest is sound enough. The point of the Sephiroth Copy project wasn't to create a 'New' Sephiroth to control, it was to test the Reunion Hypothesis.

That's why he released all the other Sephiroth clones into the wild as it were. He had to track their movements.

I forgot about that. Yeah, you're right.

 

[The Witch]

Cali, I did not say I was calling you wrong now. I said because I tell you you are wrong, which I do do, and which you quite often reply to with open hostility, even when you are factually wrong.

Ry.... I think you're confused.


How can I be wrong WHEN ASKING A QUESTION? I'm asking said question because I OBVIOUSLY DO NOT HAVE A LOGICAL CONCLUSION on the matter.

I'm therefor, trying to get to the bottom of this by asking people who obviously know the answer to my question when I don't.

You said;

I know you don't like me or want to trust anything I say because I tell you you're wrong, Cali, but I don't deliberately give anybody the bum steer and I'm very familiar with the subject matter.

What am I wrong about in this topic? I'm asking a question. Questions cannot be right or wrong. They can only be answered.

I'm not really ever factually wrong either, seeing how I don't talk much about this chiz.

*gasp*
hostility... where?

I don't think that Sephiroth lied to Cloud though... Nobody really did. Tifa withheld information from him, but Cloud just created his own mental manifestation from Zack and Tifa's main memories of being there, and being Zack.. which is who the 'fake' Cloud is during the first part of the game, which is who Sephiroth addresses during all these confrontations.

It isn't until after the Lifestream when Cloud's head is actually sorted out, that being stop referring to him as a creation and a clone.. Before all that, he more or less is.

That still doesn't explain why Hojo thought he created Cloud.

 

[Channizard]

HOJO BROUGHT CLOUD BACK TO LIFE WOMAN. IT'S A LOOSE BAD TRANSLATION BUT HE CREATED HIM. CLOUD + JENOVA CELLS + MAKO = NEW FAKE CLOUD

ilurly

 

[Ilyena]

If you two feel that you must argue back and forth, take it to PMs. This is getting really old. If it continues, I will start to delete posts.

 

[The Witch]

HOJO BROUGHT CLOUD BACK TO LIFE WOMAN. IT'S A LOOSE BAD TRANSLATION BUT HE CREATED HIM. CLOUD + JENOVA CELLS + MAKO = NEW FAKE CLOUD

ilurly

Lmao


THANK YOU I UNDERSTAND THAT NOW.

Goddamn bad translations.

At least I heard the truth from someone I wuv.

Freddie Mercury, I apologize. I didn't know it was arguing. But I def don't want that.

*ignores for good*

 

[Saints&Storms]

Well, Channizard, everything you said made sense, now the only thing I'm a still a little confused on is the whole not having a name thing, because Sephiroth sounds like he actually means he was never given a "name".

I must have completely blown over your post before

EDIT: I apologize Freddie Mercury, for the arguing, consider it over.

 

[Channizard]

I could argue that it's a translational error and just dodge a bullet that way... but I do kinda think it's as simple as "Cloud was a Grunt. He was a nobody, nobody (other than Zack in CC) knew who he was.. he didn't have a name." Sephiroth never said he wasn't given a name.. just that he didn't have one.

 

[The Witch]

So basically, Sephiroth was all;

"You weren't popular, Cloud-o. You were a no one"

I guess that makes sense. At least it's an explination. xD

 

[Channizard]

It's the best I'm coming up with. -shrug-

 

[The Witch]

It's the best I'm coming up with. -shrug-

So... case closed? *looks around*

Thanks for your help everyone. +rep for all that contributed. At least now I'm not confused.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ry.... I think you're confused.


How can I be wrong WHEN ASKING A QUESTION? I'm asking said question because I OBVIOUSLY DO NOT HAVE A LOGICAL CONCLUSION on the matter.

I'm therefor, trying to get to the bottom of this by asking people who obviously know the answer to my question when I don't.

You said;


What am I wrong about in this topic? I'm asking a question. Questions cannot be right or wrong. They can only be answered.

I'm not really ever factually wrong either, seeing how I don't talk much about this chiz.

On the contrary, Cal, I think it is you who are confused or trying to confuse the issue. I did not say you were wrong here, or even that I was saying you were wrong in this topic, just that I quite often tell you in no uncertain terms that you are wrong. And you have, on most every occasion, reacted with hostility and evasion, as well as closing down all avenues of discussion wherever you had the ability.
But you are wrong about one thing in this topic now. Before this paragraph, I didn't say you were wrong anywhere in this topic. I was noting a continual trend. A trend I note you never actually denied, except to deflect by making it about this topic and this topic alone.

*gasp*
hostility... where?

Why, just there. And your LJ, And DeviantArt and TFC, and TNC, and Here in the past, and TLS.

Channy, I think characterizing Tifa's actions as 'withholding information' forgets that she's not quite sure for a long time whose information is correct. Cloud knows things he by all rights should not know about Nibelheim if he were not there, but he knows them, and to Tifa's memory, he was not there. She'd also have been wrong to tell him he wasn't there, since he actually was.
Ah, complex moral dilemmas.

Also, don't sugar coat Sephiroth. Sephiroth was out and out lying to Cloud at times.

 

[Channizard]

Channy, I think characterizing Tifa's actions as 'withholding information' forgets that she's not quite sure for a long time whose information is correct. Cloud knows things he by all rights should not know about Nibelheim if he were not there, but he knows them, and to Tifa's memory, he was not there. She'd also have been wrong to tell him he wasn't there, since he actually was.
Ah, complex moral dilemmas.

But thats the thing. To Tifa, he wasn't there. So throughout the first disk, she's listening to him tell these stories as if he were in Zack's shoes. So to me, she was withholding information from him about being there.. or rather what he took part in. She didn't have to say that he was never there, but she could have said that that wasn't him.. She could have brought up Zack's name or something.

And throughout the game until The Lifestream event where it gets sorted, when Cloud talks about Nibelheim.. and especially during the flashbacks Tifa has moments where she starts to say something but then backs down. You can tell she's uncomfortable about trying to bring out the truth... ergo, withholding information. -shrug-

 

[Ryushikaze]

But thats the thing. To Tifa, he wasn't there. So throughout the first disk, she's listening to him tell these stories as if he were in Zack's shoes. So to me, she was withholding information from him about being there.. or rather what he took part in. She didn't have to say that he was never there, but she could have said that that wasn't him.. She could have brought up Zack's name or something.

And throughout the game until The Lifestream event where it gets sorted, when Cloud talks about Nibelheim.. and especially during the flashbacks Tifa has moments where she starts to say something but then backs down. You can tell she's uncomfortable about trying to bring out the truth... ergo, withholding information. -shrug-

It's not that she's uncomfortable trying to bring out the truth, it's that she's unsure of the truth itself. Remember, to her recollection, Cloud wasn't there, but he still gives an almost perfect account of the events as if he was. Cloud's testimony is so good, he had to have been there, but he wasn't. If you were in her shoes, you'd be just as confused.