If truly hotter does not exist then explain this ?

[Korytco]

You people argue senselessly .

I do not care about all your babble if I post a picture of miss universe and a huge fat woman and had a poll who is hotter or more beautiful . A fat sweaty woman or a babe hands down the babe would win. HANDS DOWN

I am not being shallow I am being honest. Finding beauty in a person does not mean you are aesthetically retarded...sorry people....hate to burst your bubbles ....

Aesthetically speaking MOST people in general would pick the woman more pleasing to the eye because she would be more pleasing to the eye as simple as that.

Although many wont agree with me here in text form few will disagree and most of you will silently agree.

I am just being realistic . Finding beauty in someone does not dismiss if they are not aesthetic.

THERE IS A GENERALIZED BEAUTY IN MANY COMPARISONS . I am not arguing its subjective, rather that there is popular opinion . There is always an odd ball like some of you that like big fat gross women or seemingly cant tell the difference from a babe and a cow.

 

[der Astronom]

You people argue senselessly .

I do not care about all your babble if I post a picture of miss universe and a huge fat woman and had a poll who is hotter or more beautiful . A fat sweaty woman or a babe hands down the babe would win. HANDS DOWN

If you asked some people from farther back in history, they would think meatier ladies are beautiful, and pick the fat sweaty woman. Skin and bones doesn't appeal to them.

Aesthetically speaking MOST people in general would pick the woman more pleasing to the eye because she would be more pleasing to the eye as simple as that.

That's circular logic. Careful there.

 

[Fair_Game]

Is it odd that I agree with that guy?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder? But ok, so people gather around a painting and think its beautiful. So beautiful that it sells for millions of dollars.

Have you ever listened to music so beautiful that it moved you? But musical theory can provide an equation for beauty then.

To say that everyone is beautiful is just 'safe'. There's no progression in safety.

Like the man said, I'd pick the babe and if a gun was held to my head I'd guess everyone else would too.

But, I understand that you guys probably have some major grudge against Kortyco or something that I wouldn't understand. As you were.

 

[Scarlet]

You people argue senselessly .

Let's not poke at the way people argue. Avoid the personal attacks, thank you.

2. Those poll results are from a gaming community. It can be argued that 'gamers' may have an attraction to certain types of people, where-as people not on this gaming site could prefer a different sort of beauty.

That's true, many gamers/nerds prefer a certain looking female. From what I've mostly seen they find Asians and brunettes attractive. The reason why blonde is such a turn off for most gamers/nerds is because they remember that 'blonde bitch' or that 'dumb blonde'.

The bottom line is, many different areas of the world, and many different types of people, have a different idea of what 'beauty' is. As mentioned by others earlier, beauty is purely subjective. It also changes over time. When most people look at old paintings, they go: "Wow, THESE people were considered beautiful?!" This does prove a bit that perhaps there is a popularized idea of beauty...but that doesn't mean that all people consider that to be attractive.

Yes, for example in Japan, they would find a blonde haired woman, with large breasts, pale skin, and skinny to be extremely attractive since they rarely see true blondes. Also back in the 90s Pamela Anderson was a pop culture icon. The trend was most people wanted blonde hair and big boobs. Today, most men seem to drool over actress such as Jessica Alba, and models such as Adriana Lima.

I do not care about all your babble if I post a picture of miss universe and a huge fat woman and had a poll who is hotter or more beautiful . A fat sweaty woman or a babe hands down the babe would win. HANDS DOWN

Yes, most likely Miss Universe would win but, consider the fact that there are some people who find fat women attractive. Also some men might find Miss Universe unattractive because she looks fake or for whatever reason.

There is always an odd ball like some of you that like big fat gross women or seemingly cant tell the difference from a babe and a cow.

Well that's rather rude. As I said above, please avoid personal attacks. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. You may think fatter women are unattractive but some may think they are.

 

[Korytco]

I admit the last bit was a tad shallow but it was honest. Some women let theiselves go and look like cows. SAme for some men. I do not seek out to hate these people but for this sort of debate I am shocked that some people seem to not be able to grasp all of this.....I think this bothers most people, I would not say all but generally speaking of modern era it is not the most "BEAUTIFUL "thing in GENERALIZATION MAJORITY VIEW to weigh 300- 400 pounds ......

DAmn straight that is my opinion and those are the opinions I have. You can post your own.

If anyone is over weight and cares what I say then you do not care enough about yourself and you care too much about what I think.

Generally speaking though larger hunnies I like my bacon on buns that I can fit in my hands easily , I do not like sludge .....

 

[Fair_Game]

But, I don't think his question is targeting 'beauty' to be precise. I think he's saying that no matter how subjective beauty is, there is still a 'more aesthetically pleasing look'.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So if we poll 100 beholders and 77 say 'I'd pick the babe' and 23 would say 'I'd pick the fat homely chick' we could say that the Babe would be more beautiful than the fat girl, because the beholders picked her as the favorite. Maybe?

I just don't find beauty that subjective. There are things that the majority would agree on.

 

[der Astronom]

I partly blame the media. They actually tell you what you have to believe is beautiful. They show off these skinny chicks on magazines, cosmetics commercials, celebrities, etc. And it's just generally become accepted as a part of society. So then if you don't think like them, and try to be like them, people will fear rejection from society. They end up mistaking this for "beauty" than for what they actually feel.

This doesn't happen to everyone, but generally to the people who fear being labelled as outcasts from society.

 

[Korytco]

Media or not I am not attracted to large hunnies . I like healthy women.

I would not entirely disagree with you or disagree at all necessarily but I like women naturally, and naturally I like a healthy cute little woman.

That does not mean I can not fall in love with a large woman, but I can tell you that I would not ever think she was aesthetic .

If I loved her for personal reasons I would work with her if she wanted to become skinnier . If not I would accept it as I would love her .

I would not ever see her as a more beautiful woman than a star though nor would I try even.

 

[Rockman X]

You people argue senselessly .

Really? I thought it was you who argued senselessly. Wow, I was way off.

Aesthetically speaking MOST people in general would pick the woman more pleasing to the eye because she would be more pleasing to the eye as simple as that.

Riiiiight....and aesthetically speaking you're going to encounter alot of people with different aesthetics. Now if you somehow grouped together 100 people and 90 of them had the same aesthetics, then yes, most would pick the same person. But that would just be tampering with your experiment.

There is always an odd ball like some of you that like big fat gross women or seemingly cant tell the difference from a babe and a cow.

Well I'd say that came across as offensive.

If you asked some people from farther back in history, they would think meatier ladies are beautiful, and pick the fat sweaty woman. Skin and bones doesn't appeal to them.

Quite true. And in alot of African cultures, fat women have been viewed as attractive, because they've got money and food.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder? But ok, so people gather around a painting and think its beautiful. So beautiful that it sells for millions of dollars.

And look at the kind of modern art that's in museums, things inspired by the Dada movement, Duchamp's urinal inscribed with "R. Mutt", etc. You'd likely see a bunch of rich tightwads or artsy pricks clustered around modern art calling it beautiful or inspiring and making things up about what if represented. But if I (and plenty of people I know) looked at it, I'd call it lazy shit that doesn't deserve to be called art. Art is extremely subjective, try to pick a better example.

Have you ever listened to music so beautiful that it moved you? But musical theory can provide an equation for beauty then.

Another bad example. Music is like art, it's still subjective. Some people might find a country ballad beautiful, but I despise country so I wouldn't. Tastes in voices can be different too, take for example Davey Havok (singer from AFI, Son of Sam and Blaqk Audio). I like his voice, and I know other people who like it too; conversely, I know people who can't stand his voice.

That's true, many gamers/nerds prefer a certain looking female. From what I've mostly seen they find Asians and brunettes attractive. The reason why blonde is such a turn off for most gamers/nerds is because they remember that 'blonde bitch' or that 'dumb blonde'.

I do luv me sum azns and brunettes

Yes, most likely Miss Universe would win but, consider the fact that there are some people who find fat women attractive. Also some men might find Miss Universe unattractive because she looks fake or for whatever reason.

Yes. I hate women that come off as plastic and fake. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons I've heard given by people with fat fetishes as to why they like fat chicks is because it's real. The girl may be a little (or alot) overweight, but she's not an anorexic Barbie wannabe.

 

[Korytco]

Fine, the high ground is yours I am glad that you can be so insightful into the beauty of any woman . Even 300-400 pounders who do not give a shit about their selves and hate there own image even....

Most women hate a little fat let alone.....

I doubt most huge women expect to be beautiful in your eyes let alone think you should think they are !I doubt most people on the planet do .....Love whoever you want to but fat huge women are not general items of great beauty at least not where I am here in the US of A . Although we have a over weight problem THAT SHOULD NOT BE ENCOURAGED. Its a very real and unhealthy problem and I do not support it to pretend and be nice to them . Your beautiful go eat another entire cake !

I do not seek out to hate the over weight women, the ones with a disorder have my sympthany but I do not think they are beautiful . Even if I loved a over weight woman she would not look beautiful even if I was hit on the head with a baseball bat .....

 

[Fair_Game]

I partly blame the media. They actually tell you what you have to believe is beautiful. They show off these skinny chicks on magazines, cosmetics commercials, celebrities, etc. And it's just generally become accepted as a part of society. So then if you don't think like them, and try to be like them, people will fear rejection from society. They end up mistaking this for "beauty" than for what they actually feel.

This doesn't happen to everyone, but generally to the people who fear being labelled as outcasts from society.

I think that's more the evolution of our society. I really don't know, but from what experience I've seen this seems to be more the case.

Speculative thought and therefore completely useless : (but hey its fun)

Perhaps before viable means of communication, the concepts of beauty was much more centralized. Perhaps, 'beauty' never had a chance to surface. The prettiest in one village may have been the ugliest in the next.

But with the advent of communication, pictures, television, internet etc. All becoming more readily available, couldn't the dial have been 'honed in'. Perhaps the 'media' did nothing more than what Kortyco suggested. They took a poll (maybe using ratings as a method of judging). They found that the slim and trim sold more product, so they started including it in their ads.

Perhaps Beauty could be absolute and its only with the advent of our interconnectivity that we're finding out just how precisely absolute it can be.

Lastly, whats with the last bit 'fear of being labeled an outcast'. Can you please clarify that?

 

[der Astronom]

Not really. If that were true, then we couldn't have known how some famous people in history look like, but we have some idea of what they looked like because people drew pictures of them, and certain accounts verify the accuracy of them too. If there were good looking actors or actresses in plays and such, you probably could have seen pictures of them drawn somewhere--art exists in all cultures. You see what they consider "beautiful" in their art. Just because they didn't have TVs or Internet doesn't mean they couldn't express what their ideals of "beautiful" were. They just did it differently.

If beauty were absolute, then varying cultures could not have different ideas of what "beautiful" means to them. And different groups of people also have a different idea of what "beautiful" means. This isn't simply that "most" people believe certain aspects of people to be "beautiful", an absolute means everyone believes the same thing.

In any given society, people will always be pressured to conform. If they don't, they're afraid they won't have friends or won't succeed. If they're not like everyone else, they can't share anything in common with other people that live near them, and will be too afraid to consider them friends. If they don't like what the aristocrats or other powerful people in society like, they fear they will have a lesser chance at success. It's quite a mob mentality, but few people really desire to be isolated from society. Most fear loneliness.

 

[Korytco]

Well the thread is officially on topic. I think I argued my side enough. Going to go watch tv. Thank you all for your posts. I do not care what you think about me, i enjoyed the read.

 

[Fair_Game]

Art is extremely subjective, try to pick a better example.

Art, music, poetry, physical attraction ... aren't those about the only areas of aesthetics that deal closely with this topic?

If I grouped you and your best four friends in a widely diverse group of people and asked them if Davey Havok has a good voice would the majority say yes?

I think my choices were acceptable. The majority might be moved more by the country ballad than your music. And thats exactly the issue, it seems to be the difficulty is removing the 'self' from the equation.

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it wrong.

@Karl

I consider the 'fat women were beautiful in older societies' argument to be a bit presumptuous. For instance, the heavier women were viewed as either 'better for birthing' or 'rich/healthier' both appealing to the human instinct to mate. Mating, being a necessity, isn't beauty. I can't take into account the belief tainted by necessity.

The actors in the play example, how many people could have acted the roles for the plays? If I'm not mistaken weren't all the roles for say a shakesperian play, male? We've cut the percentage in half now. How many males became actors? perhaps we've cut down the percentage to even less.

Even with experienced artistry we couldn't say that in a given area even HALF the people in a city saw any portraits of the actors in the play.

Compare that to today's technology. Literally, almost everyone in america can get a camera, take a picture and post it on the internet in seconds. We have websites dedicated to 'hot or not'. Any could be captured on film and distributed to millions of viewers in seconds. I would say we're currently more capable of dealing with the volume of 'beautiful people'. So much that whether media helps or not, we've evolved to the point where we ourselves decide.

Absolute beauty could potentially exist. I didn't say that there was one person who exonified beauty. I said there are things that are absolutely beautiful, and I believe that.

As for your 'most fear loneliness' bit, the way you say it makes it sound like everyone fits into that category. So who then, doesn't fear loneliness? We are social beings.

My reason for asking is it seems like a statement that has no relevance to the topic.

 

[der Astronom]

@Karl

I consider the 'fat women were beautiful in older societies' argument to be a bit presumptuous. For instance, the heavier women were viewed as either 'better for birthing' or 'rich/healthier' both appealing to the human instinct to mate. Mating, being a necessity, isn't beauty. I can't take into account the belief tainted by necessity.

There's nothing in those statements, however, that does not say beauty couldn't be both.

The actors in the play example, how many people could have acted the roles for the plays? If I'm not mistaken weren't all the roles for say a shakesperian play, male? We've cut the percentage in half now. How many males became actors? perhaps we've cut down the percentage to even less.

That's irrelevant. If we needed a "pretty" girl role in a play, and it had to be played by a guy, they would still have some concept of what this girl might look like, and so there are certain guys that couldn't fill out that role. For example, if they needed a guy to play a female role, and the female is considered "pretty", (and they defined "pretty" as being meaty) then a skinny guy could not fill out that role particularly well, or there would be other players better suited for that kind of a role. The converse is true; if "pretty" is defined as skinny, then a fat guy couldn't play that role.

Even with experienced artistry we couldn't say that in a given area even HALF the people in a city saw any portraits of the actors in the play.

Which is why I mentioned the other forms of art you see in their cultures. Which includes drawings on pottery, statues, portraits in newspapers and other anecdotal or written accounts.

Compare that to today's technology. Literally, almost everyone in america can get a camera, take a picture and post it on the internet in seconds. We have websites dedicated to 'hot or not'. Any could be captured on film and distributed to millions of viewers in seconds. I would say we're currently more capable of dealing with the volume of 'beautiful people'. So much that whether media helps or not, we've evolved to the point where we ourselves decide.

And yet, magazines like People will continue spouting on about how celebrities look--you always see certain actors in commercials and other movies, and never of other kinds. Children see these, and people hang on celebrities. It's all a part of society, and the media wants you to buy into this. If you don't, then you're not considered a part of the majority.

Absolute beauty could potentially exist. I didn't say that there was one person who exonified beauty. I said there are things that are absolutely beautiful, and I believe that.

I did not say you did; I said that if you considered absolute beauty, then it would mean that everyone must agree that a particular person is considered beautiful, but this is not true at all. If that's not what you meant by "absolutely beautiful", then please explain what you mean.

As for your 'most fear loneliness' bit, the way you say it makes it sound like everyone fits into that category. So who then, doesn't fear loneliness? We are social beings.

It's related to what I said above.

My reason for asking is it seems like a statement that has no relevance to the topic.

I said this about why people have generalizations on beauty.

 

[Soul Saver]

Fine, the high ground is yours I am glad that you can be so insightful into the beauty of any woman . Even 300-400 pounders who do not give a shit about their selves and hate there own image even....

Most women hate a little fat let alone.....

I doubt most huge women expect to be beautiful in your eyes let alone think you should think they are !I doubt most people on the planet do .....Love whoever you want to but fat huge women are not general items of great beauty at least not where I am here in the US of A . Although we have a over weight problem THAT SHOULD NOT BE ENCOURAGED. Its a very real and unhealthy problem and I do not support it to pretend and be nice to them . Your beautiful go eat another entire cake !

I do not seek out to hate the over weight women, the ones with a disorder have my sympthany but I do not think they are beautiful . Even if I loved a over weight woman she would not look beautiful even if I was hit on the head with a baseball bat .....

Haha. I can speak to you as a guy who likes "large" women. No, I doubt that it is a commonly held perception of attractiveness, but there are millions of us out there, so it's not exactly some tiny niche either.

Fat is not neccessarily unhealthy either, until you get to liek whale hueg. Women especially just tend to be paranoid of being a little bit overweight, despite many, many guys with average preferences appearing to prefer ladies with some meat on 'em anyway. Yet they might be classified as overweight, despite being VERY healthy.

 

[Fair_Game]

There's nothing in those statements, however, that does not say beauty couldn't be both.

An almost animalistic instinct could be considered 'beautiful' in an odd way. But instinct kinda makes it sound forced and beauty should be a choice right? If Instinct is beautiful then Absolutes exist, and you'd be arguing my point. But that's still a speculative answer, which is oddly refreshing to hear from you.

That's irrelevant. If we needed a "pretty" girl role in a play, and it had to be played by a guy, they would still have some concept of what this girl might look like, and so there are certain guys that couldn't fill out that role. For example, if they needed a guy to play a female role, and the female is considered "pretty", (and they defined "pretty" as being meaty) then a skinny guy could not fill out that role particularly well, or there would be other players better suited for that kind of a role. The converse is true; if "pretty" is defined as skinny, then a fat guy couldn't play that role.

While you make an excellent point I feel I wasn't clear enough. You used 'actors in plays' as an example of how other cultures shared their concept of beauty. I wasn't arguing that since the actors were all male, obviously their concepts were skewed (which would make the above a fitting answer for). I was saying instead that there were very few people in that culture that ever saw those plays or actors and that you could hardly weigh a societal view on beauty based on that. So my point wasn't irrelevant, just misinterpreted.

Which is why I mentioned the other forms of art you see in their cultures. Which includes drawings on pottery, statues, portraits in newspapers and other anecdotal or written accounts.

Yes but still your referencing the fertility goddess, who represents woman as a necessity not woman as beautiful. Interestingly enough the overweight fertility goddess' seem to be indicating pregnant women, not 'beauty' but 'childbirth'. The other fertility goddess' are all depicted closely to our standards of beauty today. Search for fertility goddess' and you'll find a majority of statues, paintings etc. that closely tie in with today's concepts of beauty.

Furthermore, I'm still saying that technology gives everyone a voice to weigh in with their concepts of beauty and they've elected several specific attributes to depict that. To say we are all 'ruled by fear of rejection', or 'brainwashed by media imagery' is circular.

Surely there must have been a starting point. Did media get together and decide 'thin, blonde, big boobs = beautiful now lets start fear-mongering'? Or were they artists interpreting societal concepts of beauty?

And yet, magazines like People will continue spouting on about how celebrities look--you always see certain actors in commercials and other movies, and never of other kinds. Children see these, and people hang on celebrities. It's all a part of society, and the media wants you to buy into this. If you don't, then you're not considered a part of the majority.

Did magazines arbitrarily decide angelina jolie and brad pitt are beautiful? I know tons of people who find those two iconic, and I happen to think Anjo isn't that hot. In this way am I effectively striking out against media propaganda and the majority?

I said this about why people have generalizations on beauty.

People have generalizations on beauty out of fear of loneliness? So people like Angelina Jolie, not because she's got big lips, a thin exotic figure and captivating eyes but instead because they fear rejection from their fellow man. I'm going to try that. I'm going to walk up to my guy friends and explain to them that they don't think she's attractive, their just scared of not fitting in.

Does your above statement follow the logic that people who aren't afraid of fitting in with society have no generalizations of beauty? I want to meet someone who doesn't have a generalized concept of beauty.

 

[Donald Trump]

I admit the last bit was a tad shallow but it was honest. Some women let theiselves go and look like cows. SAme for some men. I do not seek out to hate these people but for this sort of debate I am shocked that some people seem to not be able to grasp all of this.....I think this bothers most people, I would not say all but generally speaking of modern era it is not the most "BEAUTIFUL "thing in GENERALIZATION MAJORITY VIEW to weigh 300- 400 pounds ......

DAmn straight that is my opinion and those are the opinions I have. You can post your own.

If anyone is over weight and cares what I say then you do not care enough about yourself and you care too much about what I think.

Generally speaking though larger hunnies I like my bacon on buns that I can fit in my hands easily , I do not like sludge .....

We aren't being insincere, I never once said that I find fat women attractive, but people do.
It is really a stupid thing to say that there is absolute beauty, unless of course you are Keats, which you aren't. And he wasn't talking about aesthetics either, I digress.
To have absolute beauty, everyone would have to think the same. Not everyone thinks the same, ergo no absolute beauty. That is not to say that a majority will find one person to be more attractive than the other.
Also your poll only had two options, surely 'absolute beauty' would mean that every single person in the world would be part of that poll.
It's very likely that the winner wouldn't even win by 1%.

Fine, the high ground is yours I am glad that you can be so insightful into the beauty of any woman . Even 300-400 pounders who do not give a shit about their selves and hate there own image even....

Generalising a little aren't we?
There are a lot of people who aren't satisfied with their own image, even if they are skinny. It's not just fat people.

I doubt most huge women expect to be beautiful in your eyes let alone think you should think they are !I doubt most people on the planet do .....Love whoever you want to but fat huge women are not general items of great beauty at least not where I am here in the US of A . Although we have a over weight problem THAT SHOULD NOT BE ENCOURAGED. Its a very real and unhealthy problem and I do not support it to pretend and be nice to them . Your beautiful go eat another entire cake !

And you are a typical American are you?
No. So therefore you can't claim that fat women aren't attractive.
Also your cynicism is stupid, I knew a girl who was about 40kgs which is very skinny, but thanks to people who insist that to be skinny is attractive(I was talking about people like you Korytco) sje thought, I'm fat and starved herself until she could wrap her hands around her waist. She was very sick.
We should be telling people that as long as they are healthy that they are attractive.
Not lose some weight.

 

[Bambi]

Not this old chestnut *doesnt read all the pages due to being to lazy*

All that first post proves is that people have their own opinions on what they think is hot. Just because more people voted for one person doesn't speak for everyone else. People have different views on hottness and beauty, Im sure there are people that don't find any of those n that naff little poll attractive at all

Yes there are attractive/unattractive people but bugger me, if someone said George Clooney are hawt look at the poll ytou can't deny this, Id be like er, yes I can. I don't think he's attractive at all, apart from in From Dusk til Dawn, but the appeal there for me is his attitude tattoos and clothes

 

[Korytco]

Karl and fair game are on the topic that I always wished I could express. I never meant to say there is an absolute beauty check my last like 5 posts I say there is exceptions and that it is subjective in one way or another I also express what I wanted to hit on . Generalized beauty . If something generally is beautiful , karl and fair game argue its the media and that to an extent there can be generalized beauty no one is saying that there has to be and that it is absolute to everyone.

So leave me alone hate gamers and post on topic if you post again please.

LOL I am going swimming and outside now.