Is IX the darkest Final Fantasy game?

Read Rockman's posts. The ending was not as happy as it appears to be.
Vivi is dead and Freya's lover never regained his memories of her and they had to start over.
And Cloud came before Zack. Zack was only an after thought in the original game and was a last minute addition. Cloud did not copy off of Zack as it was technically the other way around.
 
I don't think it's the darkest FF. I was going to say it's the most bittersweet, but there again now that I think about it I don't really think that either. FF 10's ending was really bittersweet. I always got, forgive me if you disagree, but an almost FF10-2 feel from FF 9. In that it had emotion but it felt fun as well. But then again, it doesn't really.

So, I suppose I think it's somewhere in the middle myself. Not too dark and not too light. And the ending was very bittersweet.

I'm starting to think I'm not making much sense so I'm stopping!
 
Gamingway said:
I was disturbed by it :confused: For me it's right up there with the music where you fight Giygas in Earthbound, which I actually had to mute because I was playing it alone in the middle of the night :gonk:
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I just listened to Necron's battle theme alone in the middle of the night. *shudders*

FFIX could be a little dark, but I think that the cartoony graphics and general light-hearted feel made it less dark. The darkest FF in my opinion would be either VI or VII.
 
It is kind of odd that the austerity of IX is always slighted for its "toony" graphics, but you don't often hear that as a criticism for VII with its polyguys (referred to as "bad", but not often "silly"), or the others with their sprites and legos.

So I wouldn't use something like graphics to really take away from IX's "dark" aspects, and I'd have to say that it did possess quite a bit of it, what with the underlying themes of death, the forgotten, morality and all.

The one to challenge it, I think, would be VII...

Sure, VII delt a lot with the lifestream, and with it, the idea of a life and death cycle and such, but that's not to undermine its blackened tones. The genocide of a "holy" race, terrorism against the world power, witnissing a population that deals in sins and moral delimas, witnessing how this same population reacts to the coming of the world's end, and so on.

Not to mention just about everything involved with Shinra. Screw Sephiroth, here you have a world-encompassing megaconglomerate that thrives on hypercapitalism, causes death to the planet for the sake of personal gain, a president of greed and the other looking to rule based on fear, a derelict society in poverty because of the government that will manipulate these very people for their own prosperity, hiding their corrupted tracks in the process - even killing their own to do it, etc.

I mean, the game just had really jacked up aspects. It had gritty elements that were especially hard to ignore because a lot of it is relevant. The game captured the turn-of-the-century zeitgeist like no other.

I'd definitely think it ranks up there with IX, and after that it would probably be VI. Everything that Kefka did is enough to warrant that, and everything that proceeds Kefka's doing adds to that. The world's virtual end, the cult he amassed, all the deaths and destruction to achieve his "ascension". I'd probably put it third behind the aforementioned IX and VII.
--

This is, of course, all ignoring Tactics. I remember revisiting that game some time ago, and couldn't believe some of the aspects of that game's plot.. If we're extending this hand beyond the mainline installments, Tactics probably takes it.
 
Hm, I complain about FF7's graphics all the time!;) No one listens me though.

Anyway, even though I hate it, I would have to agree with you and say that VII was several shades darker than IX's. I mean, for one some was murdered on screen in VII, and the ending of seven pretty much has IX's beat because almost everything is undone by nature itself.'

So, yeah VII is much darker because it features a planet that pretty much wants to kill all the humans.
 
HighwindPilot said:
It is kind of odd that the austerity of IX is always slighted for its "toony" graphics, but you don't often hear that as a criticism for VII with its polyguys (referred to as "bad", but not often "silly"), or the others with their sprites and legos.

So I wouldn't use something like graphics to really take away from IX's "dark" aspects, and I'd have to say that it did possess quite a bit of it, what with the underlying themes of death, the forgotten, morality and all.

The one to challenge it, I think, would be VII...

Sure, VII delt a lot with the lifestream, and with it, the idea of a life and death cycle and such, but that's not to undermine its blackened tones. The genocide of a "holy" race, terrorism against the world power, witnissing a population that deals in sins and moral delimas, witnessing how this same population reacts to the coming of the world's end, and so on.

Not to mention just about everything involved with Shinra. Screw Sephiroth, here you have a world-encompassing megaconglomerate that thrives on hypercapitalism, causes death to the planet for the sake of personal gain, a president of greed and the other looking to rule based on fear, a derelict society in poverty because of the government that will manipulate these very people for their own prosperity, hiding their corrupted tracks in the process - even killing their own to do it, etc.

I mean, the game just had really jacked up aspects. It had gritty elements that were especially hard to ignore because a lot of it is relevant. The game captured the turn-of-the-century zeitgeist like no other.

I'd definitely think it ranks up there with IX, and after that it would probably be VI. Everything that Kefka did is enough to warrant that, and everything that proceeds Kefka's doing adds to that. The world's virtual end, the cult he amassed, all the deaths and destruction to achieve his "ascension". I'd probably put it third behind the aforementioned IX and VII.
--

This is, of course, all ignoring Tactics. I remember revisiting that game some time ago, and couldn't believe some of the aspects of that game's plot.. If we're extending this hand beyond the mainline installments, Tactics probably takes it.
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Yeah but VII's population largely avoided it. VII's was oppressive but IX's was straight up slaughter. Even VII's slums were pretty upbeat....for slums. There were tons of interesting cities and towns you got to explore and, while a couple of them got heavily damaged, only sector 7 got completely destroyed.
Which brings me back to the Reno and Beatrix sort of just getting away with it thing...

In IX there weren't that many towns to begin with. Most of IX's planet is completely uninhabited. And out of that small amount...

-The summoner town and Burmecia don't really count because they ate it before you even visit them.
-You only visit Cleyra and Bran Bul once before they're destroyed.
-Alexandria and Lindblum get half-destroyed.
-Esto gaza and Conde Petie are blocked off by that stupid tree.
-That leaves only Treno and Dali unaffected.

So while the genocide of a species I really liked and the overall depressing and dark plot bugged me. This crosses over into gameplay territory. I like my towns.

Theme-schmeme. All that death and destruction wasn't really necessary. I mean it really was a depressing ass game, and there was nowhere to go.
And my Burmecians ;_;
 
Final Fantasy IX's darkness was disguised with all those kiddy characters running around.To me it's pretty optimistic but thinking about it,just the mist itself makes it dark.Let alone all the other stuff(cities being destroyed,the characters).Despite its optimism,or what it may appears so,it has a creates an uneasy feeling,at least to me.

I'll agree with Rydia's words on the Crisis Core game compared to the original FFVII.And of course FFVII was dark as well,we also get this all those creepy soundtracks like when Sephiroth is mentioned.Might as well be darkest.

As for FFX,I didn't find it all that dark,I found it beautiful but not dark.There were some twists that made me sad but for me it was a rather happy game,maybe its colors and graphics?I don't quite know.
 
I've always argued that the theme of IX was death. Despite the cartoony graphics I think the dramatization of the music made the darker segments of the game more obvious to me. That and other things. In X, sure it's almost the same thing. Big catastrophe happens, lots of people die but it didn't feel as bitter or "dark" to me. I don't know why, maybe it's because I didn't like the game very much and I rather enjoyed watching any shred of suffering happen in that game or maybe it's the lush environments that distracts me and makes me forget? Or the summoner dance? What I'm saying is, sure it's dark but it it didn't make me feel the intensity of its darkness. Ironic isn't it? and X had realistically proportionate characters and all.

Tactics certainly was dark, but the reason why it stood out more is because it was dark AND mature. Sephiroth kills Aerith? sure but in Tactics you get people stabbed left and right, I especially love the ending. I guess Aerith's death on screen is more obvious because the player develops a familiarity with this character (that and whatever materia they lost on her). XII didn't seem dark, and maybe it's not known for its darkness but it is certainly the most mature in the series, it's up there with Tactics.

They say Versus XIII is the darkest Final Fantasy yet, can't wait to see what they actually mean by that.
 
Burmecianblue said:
Yeah but VII's population largely avoided it. VII's was oppressive but IX's was straight up slaughter. Even VII's slums were pretty upbeat....for slums. There were tons of interesting cities and towns you got to explore and, while a couple of them got heavily damaged, only sector 7 got completely destroyed.
Which brings me back to the Reno and Beatrix sort of just getting away with it thing...

In IX there weren't that many towns to begin with. Most of IX's planet is completely uninhabited. And out of that small amount...

-The summoner town and Burmecia don't really count because they ate it before you even visit them.
-You only visit Cleyra and Bran Bul once before they're destroyed.
-Alexandria and Lindblum get half-destroyed.
-Esto gaza and Conde Petie are blocked off by that stupid tree.
-That leaves only Treno and Dali unaffected.

So while the genocide of a species I really liked and the overall depressing and dark plot bugged me. This crosses over into gameplay territory. I like my towns.

Theme-schmeme. All that death and destruction wasn't really necessary. I mean it really was a depressing ass game, and there was nowhere to go.
And my Burmecians ;_;
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See that's how I feel. Only the main party in VII was really affected by the events of the game. (Save for the people in sector 7 slums) Whereas in IX, the entire world's population had to suffer. Now, if we had heard about people committing suicide because of meteor heading for the planet, then VII would have been much darker. (And was there any of this?)

And the concept of life after death really does it for me in these games. VII you return to the lifestream when you die. (One of VII's themes was that life continues even after death) In IX, you become mist... The title of Kuja's battle music is the darkness of eternity. Not something pleasant to think about.

The Farplane in X ruined the summoner's sacrifice for me. They kept talking about how sad it was that Yuna had to sacrifice herself, yet I kept thinking.. well you can just visit her at that place where you can talk to your loved ones that passed?... If X's after life was anything like IX's, then I could have taken the sacrifice more seriously.

The overall tone of IX also felt very grim. And Melodies of Life, while it has an upbeat melody, actually has sad lyrics.
 
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Rydia said:
See that's how I feel. Only the main party in VII was really affected by the events of the game. (Save for the people in sector 7 slums) Whereas in IX, the entire world's population had to suffer. Now, if we had heard about people committing suicide because of meteor heading for the planet, then VII would have been much darker. (And was there any of this?)

And the concept of life after death really does it for me in these games. VII you return to the lifestream when you die. (One of VII's themes was that life continues even after death) In IX, you become mist... The title of Kuja's battle music is the darkness of eternity. Not something pleasant to think about.

The Farplane in X ruined the summoner's sacrifice for me. They kept talking about how sad it was that Yuna had to sacrifice herself, yet I kept thinking.. well you can just visit her at that place where you can talk to your loved ones that passed?... If X's after life was anything like IX's, then I could have taken the sacrifice more seriously.

The overall tone of IX also felt very grim. And Melodies of Life, while it has an upbeat melody, actually has sad lyrics.
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I completely agree. The Farplane does seem like a nice place to dwell in for all eternity. But as for talking to your beloved part, they are merely images of their memories. I could say that it's just like looking at pictures but knowing that they are actually there does more for a person than looking at old mementos. Maybe that's why I didn't find the deaths in X to contribute much in its darkness factor.

My favorite moment in IX is
when Garland tells Kuja that he is in fact, mortal and his death is soon approaching. Seeing him losing it as his world turns upside down makes me wonder how I would react if I were in his shoes. It's one thing to know that you'll eventually die then getting the news that you're dying sooner than you think. And it's another thing to live your life thinking that you're immortal then you learn that your life span's at an end. Of course this doesn't relate to us in any way but it is an interesting concept. Also how Kuja believes that it's unjust that the world continues existing without him.
 
Burmecianblue said:
Yeah but VII's population largely avoided it.
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Wait…they avoided what exactly?

Sector 7: A plate dropped on them. This was the place of “Seventh Heaven”, home to many, including your people. Killed three of your early “friends”, or partners, in the process.

Oh, and what did Shinra do? Go and turn it around on the very group trying to stop them, making you a public enemy.

Fort Condor: Caught in a long-lasting struggle with Shinra soldiers attempting to take the place’s only real item of value.

Mt. Corel: Screwed over by Shinra's false promises and deals. Corel, as they knew it, was burned to the ground as Shinra's military ran through them. They were then Left to absolute poverty and hardship.

In doing that, they were indirectly responsible for the homicidal killings at Costa Del Sol by Dene, in that they were the cause of his psychological ruin.

Gongaga Village: A whole majority of the town left in ruins after the explosion of the Mako Reactor Shinra placed there. What was left was nothing but a small-time, backwater village of people hurting.

Nibelheim: Because of Shinra and Sephiroth, this place was absolutely destroyed. Nearly everyone in it was slaughtered, while the town was left to burn. It met utter destruction.

And what did Shinra do in response to it? Attempt to cover any records of it up, placing their own employees in it as proxies who simply feed lies about their and the town’s existence.

Wutai: This place was a prosperous, independent nation state that had value and pride to its name and its possessions and inhabitants. That changed when Shinra sought out Wutai as an ideal area for a Mako reactor. They fought, got pummeled in war, and had to give up any source of power as a result. It was left as a mere tourist attraction, retaining nothing once made it dignified or glorious.
--

I agree with your thoughts on IX, but to say that the majority of the locations in VII avoided consequences of Shinra or Sephiroth is bizzare. Even worse (not said by you), is the notion that "only your party members" felt affected; that one's a laugh. It may not be all utter-destruction, but it obviously wasn't any better, as everyone or everything left standing was left to things like oppression, suffrage, agony, and shambles.

Like I said before, FFVII retained a feel of realism in occurences like this that only added to the gritty and depressive aspects of these different places. Just because they were interesting doesn't mean they weren't screwed over.

Oh, and as for the "crisis in the sky" reactions, I'd recommend playing through that game again to make note of all the changes in attitudes that people underwent. The only two places that seemingly remained oblivious to everything were Costa Del Sol and The Gold Saucer.
 
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I disagree about X. I mean when you think about
most of the game is about happily speeding your way toward death just for the greater good. Yuna knows that she has to die for only ten years of peace. Then someone else would have to die
I mean, I don't think you get much darker than a never ending spiral of death.

And the Farplane is no different then looking at a picture. If anything, it added to the darkness, or at very least morbidity, of the game. Who wants to stare at an illusion of someone you lost. And what about the fact that
that the unsent become monsters. That's just as bad as the whole fog thing from 9

So, I don't think that X was any less than dark then 9. In fact, it was darker because
Vivi didn't know he was going to die and Yuna did
!
 
I dunno I guess after VI the destruction in VII seemed mild. But I did forget about a lot of what you mentioned in VII Highwind. when meteor was falling from the sky, were there any npcs that mentioned suicide? I guess it was also a bit morbid that they were using the lifestream as an energy source.


Saintvox

It was Yuna's choice to go on the the pilgrimage. She was never forced to do it and I really could not feel bad for her. Vivi had no control over his fate. And he did realize that his life was short towards the middle to end of the game.

I'd disagree with you about the farplane. I'd love to know what was going to happen to me after I died, especially to find out that. And I'd also love to know that my loved ones were ok when they passed! IX... well I would not want to know that I'd be turning into mist when I died, and then probably turn into a monster or be used for air ship fuel. It's a little unsettling for me. Where, if I saw the farplane, I'd be like, "ok, that wouldn't be so bad..." they even make a point to mention that when you kill fiends in X you aren't really killing the souls, just sending them to the farplane.

I think the what really did it for me in IX was when Brahn tried to kill Garnet. I remember being very bothered by that when I first played the game because it was a mother killing a daughter for Eidolons.
 
Rydia said:
It was Yuna's choice to go on the the pilgrimage. She was never forced to do it and I really could not feel bad for her. Vivi had no control over his fate. And he did realize that his life was short towards the middle to end of the game.

I'd disagree with you about the farplane. I'd love to know what was going to happen to me after I died, especially to find out that. And I'd also love to know that my loved ones were ok when they passed! IX... well I would not want to know that I'd be turning into mist when I died, and then probably turn into a monster or be used for air ship fuel. It's a little unsettling for me. Where, if I saw the farplane, I'd be like, "ok, that wouldn't be so bad..." they even make a point to mention that when you kill fiends in X you aren't really killing the souls, just sending them to the farplane.
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I would think it would be darker to feel the need to make such a choice to save the people you didn't even know then to have it forced on you. She was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for only ten years of time. I don't think she had much of a choice either. It was do this or live knowing that everyone who die's blood would be on your hands. Socitey wanted her to do it, they were pushing her toward it. Not to mention the other summoners. They were in a race to die basically.

And the farplane wasn't so much a guarantee of anything. It was an illusion. It's not really an afterlife, just something that the pyreflies show people. That's what I took Rikku's whole "My memories are in my head" to mean. It's not the afterlife, it's just a place where you see fake images of your loved one. It's like the whole of Spira was obsessed with death.

And what about Seymour and his sick thoughts? You don't get much darker than honestly believing that it is your fate to become a monster and kill everything to free it. He wasn't doing it for fun, he was doing it because he honestly felt that it was the only way for the world to go. It wasn't vengeance or anything. That's really dark to me.

And people only become mist in FF9 because the tree was blocked correct? So once that was fixed, souls were processed again and sent wherever. I ask because I don't exactly remember at the moment:confused:
 
saintvox said:
I would think it would be darker to feel the need to make such a choice to save the people you didn't even know then to have it forced on you. She was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for only ten years of time. I don't think she had much of a choice either. It was do this or live knowing that everyone who die's blood would be on your hands. Socitey wanted her to do it, they were pushing her toward it. Not to mention the other summoners. They were in a race to die basically.

And the farplane wasn't so much a guarantee of anything. It was an illusion. It's not really an afterlife, just something that the pyreflies show people. That's what I took Rikku's whole "My memories are in my head" to mean. It's not the afterlife, it's just a place where you see fake images of your loved one. It's like the whole of Spira was obsessed with death.

And people only become mist in FF9 because the tree was blocked correct? So once that was fixed, souls were processed again and sent wherever. I ask because I don't exactly remember at the moment:confused:
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There were other summoners that could have done it for her though. Honestly, if she felt pressured into doing it, then that is her damn fault for not telling everyone to fuck off. Her decision was honorable though, and she did say that she wanted to make the people of Spira happy. Besides, she never went through with it when she realized the truth about Sin and Yu Yevon. We've already seen characters in past games sacrifice their lives for the world or other characters. Aerith, Galuf, General Leo, Telluh, even Kuja. It's nothing new in X.

And we saw Tidus, Ject, Auron, and Braska have a happy reunion in the farplane at the end of the game. So I wouldn't say it was just an illusion. The unknown scares me more than the known.


And what about Seymour and his sick thoughts? You don't get much darker than honestly believing that it is your fate to become a monster and kill everything to free it. He wasn't doing it for fun, he was doing it because he honestly felt that it was the only way for the world to go. It wasn't vengeance or anything. That's really dark to me.
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Same thing with Kuja. It wasn't until the end that he realized he could make that choice for himself. And he went on a killing rampage because he realized his life was short and he didn't feel that the world should be allowed to continue existing without him. Zidane also found out that he was built to be an "Angel of Death" and had a little break down in the middle of IX.

Can't quite remember about the mist at the end of the game and the tree. I need to find a script for that. But if the mist disappears at the end of the game, you also have to argue that sin disappeared at the end of X.
 
But what about the fact that Spira was ruled over by the dead! The Maesters were unsent. That means that the whole world was under the sway of people who weren't even alive. Surely that's darker than 9?

And I mean the way that it seems people cheer on the sacrificial lambs that are the summoners. Everyone wants her to hurry up and die so they can have some peace. And let's not forget that there seems to be a bit of incest in X, with Brothers constant lust for his cousin Yuna:funnyface:. That's dark, too.

So, while I see that 9 is indeed darker then I've ever given credit for, I still don't think it's quite the darkest there is.
 
Hmm I don't recall any cheering? Nor anyone wanting her to hurry up and die. (There were other summoners that could have sacrificed themselves before Yuna). Maybe I'm not remembering it right though. I've only played the game once. And I do remember Wakka and Lulu not wanting Yuna to become a summoner but she insisted otherwise. If they were to make X very dark, they could have revealed that the the farplane was a lie and that the after life was pretty much unknown. Then I would have found the game to be dark. X just never gave me that uneasy feeling that IX and VI did. I felt like I was seeing death everywhere in IX. (Black mages falling to their deaths on air ships, soldiers often littering the ground, Clerya getting destroyed, among others)

Being ruled under maesters was no worse than being ruled under Kefka, Kefka being worse because he could annihilate you at any second for whatever reason.

Haha true about the incest, but I wouldn't call it dark. More like creepy D:
 
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HighwindPilot said:
Wait…they avoided what exactly?

Sector 7: A plate dropped on them. This was the place of “Seventh Heaven”, home to many, including your people. Killed three of your early “friends”, or partners, in the process.

Oh, and what did Shinra do? Go and turn it around on the very group trying to stop them, making you a public enemy.

Fort Condor: Caught in a long-lasting struggle with Shinra soldiers attempting to take the place’s only real item of value.

Mt. Corel: Screwed over by Shinra's false promises and deals. Corel, as they knew it, was burned to the ground as Shinra's military ran through them. They were then Left to absolute poverty and hardship.

In doing that, they were indirectly responsible for the homicidal killings at Costa Del Sol by Dene, in that they were the cause of his psychological ruin.

Gongaga Village: A whole majority of the town left in ruins after the explosion of the Mako Reactor Shinra placed there. What was left was nothing but a small-time, backwater village of people hurting.

Nibelheim: Because of Shinra and Sephiroth, this place was absolutely destroyed. Nearly everyone in it was slaughtered, while the town was left to burn. It met utter destruction.

And what did Shinra do in response to it? Attempt to cover any records of it up, placing their own employees in it as proxies who simply feed lies about their and the town’s existence.

Wutai: This place was a prosperous, independent nation state that had value and pride to its name and its possessions and inhabitants. That changed when Shinra sought out Wutai as an ideal area for a Mako reactor. They fought, got pummeled in war, and had to give up any source of power as a result. It was left as a mere tourist attraction, retaining nothing once made it dignified or glorious.
--

I agree with your thoughts on IX, but to say that the majority of the locations in VII avoided consequences of Shinra or Sephiroth is bizzare. Even worse (not said by you), is the notion that "only your party members" felt affected; that one's a laugh. It may not be all utter-destruction, but it obviously wasn't any better, as everyone or everything left standing was left to things like oppression, suffrage, agony, and shambles.

Like I said before, FFVII retained a feel of realism in occurences like this that only added to the gritty and depressive aspects of these different places. Just because they were interesting doesn't mean they weren't screwed over.

Oh, and as for the "crisis in the sky" reactions, I'd recommend playing through that game again to make note of all the changes in attitudes that people underwent. The only two places that seemingly remained oblivious to everything were Costa Del Sol and The Gold Saucer.
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Death. I never said that they were wholly unscathed. Yeah, they had to deal with Shinra's shit and a few disasters happened but they weren't being slaughtered by monsters or black mages. And Yeah Nibleheim and Sector VII took it but There were a ton of towns in VII to make up for it. And at least Nibleheim was rebuilt.

I'll bet the peoples of IX wish they could be complaining about an evil corporation, or being a tourist trap, or faulty reactors.It's a lot better than the wholesale slaughter commited by Garland, Kuja, and Alexandria.

My point is that at least in VII, they are carrying on and still making a living. If Burmecia and Cleyra was just defeated and taken over, it wouldn't have been so depressing. The whole plot is just really depressing.

Plus again. There's nowhere to go at the end of IX and there weren't that many to begin with. Even if I forgot the Black mage village earlier.Depressing or not. VII's towns were great in my book.

Oh and there's one more difference between what you listed and what happened in IX. All that VII stuff was
interesting
It showed the populace reacting to things. instead of just genocide, genocide, genocide, Garnet, Zidane, Zidane, Kuja, Necron, The end.
 
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I have to say that FF6 was darker. Kefka was manipulating the whole war, poisoning water, causing mass suffering and then destroying the world, making all people live miserable lives while he ruled as a god until Terra, Locke and the others finally offed him. Kuja gave some redeeming qualities to himself at the end, despite his death. While Fratley never regained his memories, he was still back together with Freya and created new memories with her. There were still some happiness to be found at the end and during FF9, while FF6 was constant darkness, beginning to end, with only the ending having any sort of happiness.
 
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