Jenova and Sephiroth

[Gaige]

I'm aware that Sephiroth took Jenova's head, and I'm also aware they had some measure of control over one another, but who do you think had more influence and control over the other? Did Sephiroth carry out Jenova's dream of destruction, or was Jenova under Sephiroth's control, and carry out his orders over her own desires?

 

[Vladislak]

If I remember correctly, the VII ultimania says it was Sephiroth in control. He called for "reunion" at the north crater and Jenova's body responded by busting out of Shinra headquarters and making it's way to the norther crater (killing Aerith along the way).

This is why whenever Cloud and his friends "saw" Sephiroth he dropped a piece of Jenova for them to fight.
In truth it was just Jenova taking the form of Sephiroth, not unlike it did when the Anceints first encountered it and it took the form of their dead relatives.

 

[Kei]

You could say Jenova's influence on Sephiroth was indirect, he always thought she is his mother and thus, he wanted to carry on what she wanted to do and it is destroying the planet, so it was all his doing, he was controlling her but she was the one who made himi go into this, indirectly, though.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Sephiroth was undeniably in control. How do I know this? Simple.

Jenova is dead. Once dead, things generally don't tend to come back to life.

Jenova has no desires. It has no dreams, no plans, not even a wish to use the facilities. It is dead.

Sephiroth discovered legends about Jenova, but only scraps, and he interpreted them very badly. Remember, he thought he was an Ancient! We all know that Jenova is an alien, who tried to slaughter the Ancients! A vast difference. Sephiroth was on a mission to get revenge, supposedly because the 'traitors' (as he called Cloud) that rose up and made permanent establishments severed the treasured connection with the planet. In truth, his mission is to get revenge on those who created him for their personal gain. Sephiroth's story is sad in the fact that he was never accorded the affection and attention every soul desires. His was not the creation of love but the he was the creation of profit.

He is an animal, bred to lead Shinra to their 'Promised Land' so they can set up more Mako reactors to get rich. Sephiroth knew this. This is why he was so vehement when he swore Shinra would never find the Promised Land. It wasn't because he wanted to protect it--it's because he wanted to spite Shinra.

Of course, that is the true reason, but he says differently, to cast himself in a righteous, noble light. It takes a bit of investigating to find the real reason.

Jenova, whatever it's plans were, are certainly not the same as Sephiroth's. Jenova came to the planet and proceeded to destroy it's people before it was finally vanquished. Since Jenova's plans are forever unknown, but Sephiroth's are very well know and have specific reasons, I think it is safe to say that Sephiroth was in control the entire time. He merely manipulated Jenova's shape-shifting body by imbuing the corpse with Mako (which he could easily do, he being in the Lifestream and all).

Now, any questions?

 

[Chom-chom]

Jenova is dead. Once dead, things generally don't tend to come back to life.

Jenova came to the planet and proceeded to destroy it's people before it was finally vanquished.

Can you tell me when exactly it is that Jenova dies? The Cetra were only able to seal her away, as revealed by Ifalna and Gast's video left behind in Icicle town. I always assumed she was in a state of dormancy until Professor Gast discovered her... Did she die after Sephiroth beheaded her? ^^,

Also, how was Sephiroth able to animate her corpse with mako if he was at the Northern Cave the entire time? Even if he had influence over the Lifestream, Jenova was being contained in an isolated storage tank in Midgar. She would have no contact with the Planet's Lifestream at all.

 

[Psychomaze]

I wonder if their ambitions and motives became joined together as one? Try that one for size

 

[Dragon Mage]

To anser your questions Chom-Chom:

I'm not exactly sure as to EXACTLY when Jenova was killed. If you go back and look at Ifalna's reports, she says that the Ancients were indeed able to defeat the creature. Jenova wasn't actually 'sealed off' it was just defeated and then its body dumped in a chasm where it was found 2,000 years later.

hmm... now that I think about it, maybe Ifalna DIDN'T say it was defeated? Perhaps it was Nanki's grandfather that said something about that. Darn. Well, I know that in near those points of the game, it's clearly said that Jenova was defeated. Unquestionably.

Sephiroth was able to reanimate her corpse only in a physical sense. Meaning, he used the life-endowing powers of Mako to give energy back to the body of Jenova. And direct contact isn't necessarily needed for something like life-energy to be given. It's an etheral thing from the get-go, so the rules of the material world don't necessarily apply.

And, I do believe, Jenova WAS being held in Mako. Thus the reason for the glowing window on the tank.

And Sephiroth's BODY may have been at the Crater, but his spirit was allowed free roam of the world. And Sephiroth has such a strong will, he didn't merge inot the lifestream as he should have, thus why he was able to move about.

Anything more? Need anything cleaned up? Ask away!!

 

[Chom-chom]

Ohh, that makes a lot of sense!
I've just started re-playing the game recently, so I'll watch out for mention of that.
You're right though, I just checked, and in Ifalna's video she says "A small number of surviving Cetra defeated Jenova, and confined it."
However, she also says: "Even though Jenova is confined, it could still come back to life at some time. The Planet has not fully healed itself yet. It is still, watching Jenova."

So who knows!? ^^;

 

[poker king46]

i like to point out that just because someone or something was defeated in that game doesn't mean that its dead.it just means that it fought and was defeated.i just played through that part and jenova didn't die.

 

[Chom-chom]

I agree. Those who've been exposed to Jenova's cells especially, all share the symptom of not being able to die naturally or easily.
Following the theory that Jenova is a live and kicking during the events of FFVII, in my opinion it is still Sephiroth who's in control.

The Jenova Reunion theory states that even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. This would imply that each of her cells has its own consciousness, a desire to reunite with its whole. This is how Jenova is able to manipulate those who contain her cells. However, once the events of FFVII come into place - the Clones (Cloud included), and Jenova, are all being called to Sephiroth for Reunion.
At this stage he is fully in control of Jenova as she was called to reunite with him at the Northern Cave. She busted out of Midgar at the start of the game and took the fastest path to the Northern Cave, assuming Sephiroth's form along the way.

This also explains how Sephiroth was able to control Cloud into handing over the Black Materia at the Temple of the Ancients. Sephiroth was manipulating Jenova (who was assuming his form), and also manipulating Cloud (who contains her cells). The both of them are his puppets. He pulls the strings, has Cloud hand the Materia over, and there you have it.

Sephiroth's goal is to summon Meteor, causing a massive wound in the Planet. Then, when the Lifestream emerges to heal this wound, he will merge with the Planet's energy and be reborn as a new lifeform - a god to rule over every soul (in his words).
That's his idea of Reunion anyway, which is clearly different from the Jenova Reunion theory. So, it's safe to say that Sephiroth is acting of his own will during FFVII. He inherited Jenova's legacy and made it his own.

That's my long-winded opinion, and is by no means the be all and end all. x3
You're welcome to pick it apart for bits that don't make sense. ^^,

 

[Rhoads]

Don't think anyone would know who was really in control.. Im guessing it was sephiroth doing what he can fo Jenova

 

[TrueSephiros]

Sephiroth with out a doubt is in control over Jenova, not the other way around, not even close.

Yes, Jenova's "purpose or path" per say may have "inspired" Sephiroth to do what he is doing now, however it doesn't go beyond that. However, Square has gone to great lengths to state very clearly that Sephiroth's will in the VII Universe has absolutely no equal whatsoever, and the fact that Jenova's very cell's have her will incorporated into her. Which is why some people go whack, and everyone has different symptoms due to this very reason.

However the most important factor is that out of all the people whom have ever been fused with Jenova Cell's, Sephiroth is the only one within the entire VII Universe who can bend and wield it to his very will. They even have hints of him in VII the game to where he clearly states he'll never be a puppet assuming possession of her mind and will. This is why he was able to take over Jenova's body in VII and completely reshape to his very own image, a feat that would absolutely not be possible with anyone else, however due to Sephiroth's will surpassing even that of Jenova, he's capable of doing so.

Sephiroth is easily the one who's manipulating and controlling everything from the get go.

 

[Dragon Mage]

The Jenova Reunion theory states that even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. This would imply that each of her cells has its own consciousness, a desire to reunite with its whole.

Exactly! Oh, I could kiss you! You're the first person that's said this besides me! It's also because of this unique composition that Jenova can freely shape-shift--it's merely a matter of all the cells agreeing to move into a certain position. Jenova is much like the alien in the old movie The Thing. There, too, they find an alien whose every cell is sentient.

So, in actuality, 'defeated' is the only proper term concerning Jenova. The part of the creature that composed the brain was destroyed, so the rest of the cells went dormant. (If this creature can survive a complete vaccum, they wouldn't likely be destroyed by mere lack of motivation.) But to be truly dead, Jenova would have to be tossed into the sun or in a vat of acid. Not a cell left. An insidious being to be sure.

All these cells need, however, is a mind to make them work. Think of the cells as computers; they all have a basic programming they will run but will do nothing unless told to. In this way, it was easy for Sephiroth to simply recharge the battery and enter commands.

It is incorrect to refer to Jenova as a 'she' however. Jenova is clearly an 'it' even though Sephiroth calls it 'mother'. It could be that Jenova took on a female shape by simulating the first sentient form it encountered when it arrived. Also, I think this is a deliberate thing done by Nomura, making Jenova a 'mother' as a direct perversion of a "Mother Earth" or Gaia idea. Jenova is the polar opposite of Gaia. A Satan to God, as it were, with the Cetra as angels and the humans still playing the same role (thus why they were never mentioned in the battle against Jenova).

The parallels are there, you just have to know where to look. And you're theory on Sephiroth making the wound in the planet it sound, Chom squared. Sephiroth DOES want to become a god to rule over the world, and the reason WHY he is doing this is as revenge for the 'humans' that 'destroyed' the noble 'Cetra' (which he wrongly beleives himself to be a part of). Does this not sound like Lucifer at all? An angel rebelling, refusing to bow to mankind? Hm? In a way, Sephiroth simply continues to perpetuate the same things that Jenova did, exmplefied further in the fact that Jenova's body takes on his form. That's a huge symbol.

However, I don't believe this was Sephiroth's idea of a reunion. He needed the reunion in order to summon Meteor, not the other way around. He needed all of Jenova's cells to enhance the material bond through his encased body with the black materia in order to activate it.

Speaking of symbolism, you know there's a huge amount of Nordic mythology in there? Besides, obviously, Cloud's bike named Fenrir--the wolf that will eat the moon during Ragnarok.

There's also Midgar; or Midgard as it's called in the myth. It's the home of the gods, if memory serves me right. Or it could've been the home of the giants. I confuse them too much!

Also, the physical layout of Midgar represents the Tree in Norse mythos, with the branches spreading above and the roots extending below.

There's also the Midgar Zolom, or the Orborus as he's otherwise known. The giant snake that encircles the world twice and clasps it's tail in it's mouth.

Isn't this all fun?

 

[Chom-chom]

Also, I think this is a deliberate thing done by Nomura, making Jenova a 'mother' as a direct perversion of a "Mother Earth" or Gaia idea.

Yes! I agree completely. I refer to Jenova as a female out of habit more than anything else. It seems a bit out of the way to constantly say "it did this, and it did that." xD
I saw a parallel with Aerith there too, representing the 'true' Mother Earth. (She's also referred to as 'mother' many times). :3

However, I don't believe this was Sephiroth's idea of a reunion. He needed the reunion in order to summon Meteor, not the other way around. He needed all of Jenova's cells to enhance the material bond through his encased body with the black materia in order to activate it.

That makes so much sense, marry me.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Yes! I agree completely. I refer to Jenova as a female out of habit more than anything else. It seems a bit out of the way to constantly say "it did this, and it did that." xD
I saw a parallel with Aerith there too, representing the 'true' Mother Earth. (She's also referred to as 'mother' many times). :3

lol, I refer to Jenova like that sometimes to. Just makes it faster!

Oooo, and good point about Aerith. She would be the symbolic epitome of a 'Gaia' ideal char.

That makes so much sense, marry me.

xDD Will do! You get the flowers and I'll get the chocolate!

 

[Valkyrur]

Regards to the mythological links...

Speaking of symbolism, you know there's a huge amount of Nordic mythology in there? Besides, obviously, Cloud's bike named Fenrir--the wolf that will eat the moon during Ragnarok.

There's also Midgar; or Midgard as it's called in the myth. It's the home of the gods, if memory serves me right. Or it could've been the home of the giants. I confuse them too much!

Also, the physical layout of Midgar represents the Tree in Norse mythos, with the branches spreading above and the roots extending below.

There's also the Midgar Zolom, or the Orborus as he's otherwise known. The giant snake that encircles the world twice and clasps it's tail in it's mouth.

Midgard is the land of the Humans, not Gods, or Giants. The land of the Gods is called Asgard... And the giants, Jotunheim.

And it's agreements about the Tree part. It's called Yggdrasil, for additional information. (Spellings may differ, I can't be too sure either.)

And Midgard Zolom was a summon in Final Fantasy VI too, though it went by the name Midgardsomr.

 

[TrueSephiros]

Another part is that the name Sephiroth is also hebrew, taken from the Sephirot kabbalah, or the 10 Sephirot symbols. The Tree of Life, or however you would like to call it which is what makes his name so interesting, I remember remembering that term "Sephiroth" before when I first heard of Final Fantasy VII before it's release and did a look up on it to refresh my memory. Obviously it was from the hebrew symbols of the Sephirot tree, and thus where Square derived Sephiroth's name from.

Also on another note, although it's a spin off, in Dissidia the antagonist are all positioned within each symbol of the Tree of Death, where as Sephiroth's place would have resided where Tiferet would have on the Tree of Life, however being the opposite he would have been Thagirion.

In a way, Sephiroth is representative of Thagirion, for Tiferet from the Tree of Life is the opposite who symbolizes "Tiphareth (Another name given to Tiferet), the Son, that the father is known". However Sephiroth in a way is sort of symbolic of that as well with his relationship with Jenova. Although Square hasn't abruptly come out to "say this", this is just my interpretation of everything that is shown. Because again, although Dissidia is a spin off only, the fact that each antagonist is positioned with a Tree of Death symbol and uniquely all of them in a way represent their characters in-game in a small or big way.

Sorry if this does in fact sound alittle off topic lol, however everyone was going into mythology and such, and so I felt like just talking about the uniqueness of Sephiroth's name for a moment, lol. Seriously, you gotta love Square, those people really know how to take and use these symbolic terms in a way it also represents their personality either small or large.

 

[master tonberry]

Jenovas name comes from a cross between Jehovah and nova: jehova refering to god and nova refering to new stars so basically jenovas name means "new god" in which I think although sephiroth is in complete control he has been under her influence and that is what has strived him to do what he does in the game. I believe Jenova cannot be killed no matter how long she is sealed and if she is burnt to a crisp. As seen in AC she still works behind the scenes in the form of geostigma.

 

[eternaloblivion]

i never beat the game but now that i read this consider thinking jeneva was controlling sephiroth her blood in his so maybe her cells spread and controlled him
or maybe sephiroth is jenova "gasp"

 

[Shu]

He might have been out of his mind, but I think it was his decision of doing the things he did. Jenova's cells were only a tool of destruction to be quite honest. He was the leading benefactor to the

Spoiler

death of Aeris

as well as the

Spoiler

coming of meteor

.