Jenova - The real Villian of FFVII

[RainbowXtina]

Jenova the real villain in final fantasy VII

Jenova is alien that landed on the Planet around 2000 years ago. Jenova traveled from planet to planet destroying them but one day when she landed on a Planet where the Ancients lived and she was defeated.

Like most people, I initially thought that the famous Sephiroth is the antagonist in FFVII that drive the entire story in the game and Advent Children. Meanwhile Genesis is the antagonist in Crisis core and Weiss in Dirge of Cereberus. However Genesis is not really a villain unlike Sephiroth and Weiss. He is just a confused boy! lol

When I read comments from some FFVII fans about Sephiroth being control by Jenova and it was Jenova who killed Aeris I was confused. I did a bit of research and came to the conclusion that Sephiroth had obtain the power of Jenova and he was using it. I other words, Sephiroth wasn’t influence by Jenova. However, after watching DOC I came to realised I could be wrong.

For a long time, I never really understand what the “Reunion” actually means! But here is says in FF wiki:

“As stated in Professor Hojo's Jenova Reunion Theory, once Jenova's cells have been separated from the main body, they will eventually reunite into one again. If they are inside a host body, they can influence its mind and body to join the Reunion”

The Ancients never manage to kill Jenova. She was only sealed. Therefore, when Shinra obtained Jenova’s body that is laid dormant and use it’s cells for experiment, it was Jenova chance to continue what she wanted – to destroy the world. That way, what Reunion actually means is the resurrection of Jenova!

However, Jenova cannot manipulate people with just it’s cells in the person body. Cloud was the prime example that one can overcome the desires of Jenova if the person is of a good nature and always surrounded by good people. (As mention in Kindom of Hearts where Sephiroth mention that the darkness is always inside Cloud but Tifa said Cloud is not affected by it because he will always be surrounded by light)

Sephiroth on the other hand was corrupted by vengeance.

Here as stated in the Sephiroth profile in FF wiki:


“ Genesis tells Sephiroth he was born from the Jenova Project, its goal to produce a "monster". Going in more depth about Jenova and the project Genesis states more facts, but Sephiroth does not understand all of what Genesis tries to tell him.
Deeply disturbed by the fact the creature had the same name as his "mother," and by the idea he might have been created in an experiment similar to the one that created the monsters in the pods, Sephiroth makes his way to the mansion that had been occupied by Shinra researchers, and begins reading the research notes in the basement library. As a result of what he learns, Sephiroth becomes enraged and psychotic. Based on the Shinra reports, he comes to believe Jenova was a Cetra, and therefore he as Jenova's "son" is the last Cetra survivor. He also believes the human race had betrayed the Cetra 2,000 years in the past, leaving them alone to defend the Planet from a calamity it had faced (eventually revealed to have been Jenova itself), and resolves to take vengeance for his "ancestors".

Since then, Jenova was able to influenced Sephiroth mind because he was clouded with darkness/vengeance or evil thoughts. Even when Sephiroth found out the truth about Jenova because Aeris told him, he still continues his mission to destroy the planet. The very same thing Jenova wanted.
Sigh, I’m now a bit disappointed, Sephiroth was the real puppet! Not Cloud!

Weiss’s story is not much different than Sephiroth’s. He was an experimental project as well carried out by the Restrictors, the previously strongest force of soldiers.
Here you can read more about the Restrictors and Weiss:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Restrictors

Restristors carried out the Jenova project G on the selected people which Weiss and his brother Nero was one of them. When Weiss manage to defeat the Restrictors who he hated since they experimented on him, he believe that is very powerful and seek more power. That’s when the Jenova cells in his body take control of him and use him to try to continue the mission of destroying the planet by summoning Omega.

Here, I’d done my research. Haha. I can’t believe I did research on this non-existence world, a game plot, someone’s idea!

I think as long as there is Jenova cells and bad people the Planet will always be under treat. If there is ever a FFVII- 2 I wanted the Jenova to be completely neutralized. It’s he only way to make sure that no harm will ever come to the planet anymore. (As long as there is no another Jenova landing on it! Haha)

 

[Baron Van Wolfen]

Jenova got controlled by Sephiroth after the Nibelheim incident. I repeat, everything that happened in FFVII was Sephiroth's doings.

Where the story of FFVII begins.

Sephiroth is the puppet master. This was a recurring theme in the compilation, Sephiroth's puppets n' all that.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Technically, Jenova is the villian, but only if you jump back in the timeline by about 2,000 years. Jenova has been dead, quite thoroughly dead, though I admit I'm very impressed by the research you did, Xtina. Everything Sephiroth did wouldn't have been possible if he didn't have Jenova's body to play puppeteer with.

I respectfully encourage you to check out my post here, for further explanation and detail on the inner workings of the FF7 plot.http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/showthread.php?p=707462#post707462

I promise you won't be disappointed.

 

[M1ghty Mous3]

The only reason people CAN say Jenova is the villian, is because (If i'm not mistaken) her cells were used to help create Sephiroth.

 

[Mr. Gorilla]

The whole Ultimania Omega thing confirmed Sephiroth was in control. Sephiroth was able to exist because of his connection to Jenova; if anything, Jenova and Sephiroth became one. The body and power of Jenova, the personality and hatred of Sephiroth.

Technically, Jenova is the villian, but only if you jump back in the timeline by about 2,000 years. Jenova has been dead, quite thoroughly dead, though I admit I'm very impressed by the research you did, Xtina. Everything Sephiroth did wouldn't have been possible if he didn't have Jenova's body to play puppeteer with.

To clear up confusion, Jenova's dead only in the sense that her original consciousness is gone. Jenova's body/cells/fragments are very well intact, functional, and "alive (Her body was still functional as it could be willed by Sephiroth to 'break out' of the Shinra building);" it's just that there was a new consciousness in control of them. Jenova was a vegetable until Sephiroth came along, more or less.

As for a life-form with such a complex neural network, capable of existing as multiple fragments/"within" other life-forms as cells (Which is why Sephiroth was able to "control" Cloud and all of those "clones"), Jenova probably doesn't need a singular consciousness to survive, anyway.

I respectfully encourage you to check out my post here, for further explanation and detail on the inner workings of the FF7 plot.

I promise you won't be disappointed.

Disagreeing with the "Sephiroth was dead" part. It was generally agreed upon that Sephiroth wasn't "dead-dead," but rather, in a coma-like state, and that's what the game implies (That's why his body still exists, and why it was able to interact with Cloud in the Northern Crater; if he was just a spirit in the lifestream, he could've taken the Black Materia from Cloud anywhere a Lifestream surge was present).

In addition (Based upon the original game, anyway), those Sephiroth "clones" came long after Sephiroth's "demise" in an attempt to re-create Sephiroth. Those were residents of Nibelheim who were abducted by the Shinra Corporation, in an effort to cover up the incident (There's a reason everyone acts so weird and "hush-hush" in the town, in-game; they're people who were paid by Shinra to relocate to that town and make it seem like nothing changed).

 

[Dragon Mage]

To clear up confusion, Jenova's dead only in the sense that her original consciousness is gone. Jenova's body/cells/fragments are very well intact, functional, and "alive (Her body was still functional as it could be willed by Sephiroth to 'break out' of the Shinra building);" it's just that there was a new consciousness in control of them. Jenova was a vegetable until Sephiroth came along, more or less.

As for a life-form with such a complex neural network, capable of existing as multiple fragments/"within" other life-forms as cells (Which is why Sephiroth was able to "control" Cloud and all of those "clones"), Jenova probably doesn't need a singular consciousness to survive, anyway.

Yes, exactly. As I describe in my mega-post (the one I linked to) I liken Jenova's cells to a computer. It'll run whatever programming as long as it has the software and the energy to do it. All Sephiroth need to was take control of the cells (easy enough since the whole thing was suspended in Mako), put in the code he wanted and then it was basically plug 'n play.

Sephiroth never controlled Cloud though. Cloud actually differed from the other "clones" (they were really just survivors of Nibelhiem that were experimented on not at all clones) in that he kept his consciousness and self-awareness. His mind may have been screwed up, but it wasn't broken. Sephiroth just prayed on Cloud's weaknesses to his advantage.

Disagreeing with the "Sephiroth was dead" part. It was generally agreed upon that Sephiroth wasn't "dead-dead," but rather, in a coma-like state, and that's what the game implies (That's why his body still exists, and why it was able to interact with Cloud in the Northern Crater; if he was just a spirit in the lifestream, he could've taken the Black Materia from Cloud anywhere a Lifestream surge was present).

He was physically dead. His body was dead-dead-dead. But his mind was perfectly aware, his consciousness. I'm not sure WHY they had to give the BM to Sephiroth's physical body myself -- I imagine it's for some complicated reason, but perhaps its safe to say that even though he can control Jenova's body, his connection with the material world is still strongest through his own body. Or something like that. It's never really explained, so one theory is as good as any other.

But I also got the sense that he was just a spirit in the Lifestream.... how else could he so effectively block Holy? And I assume that it was important for him to get the BM to his own body because there was a shit load of mako and energy at the point where his body washed up -- the Northern Crater.

In addition (Based upon the original game, anyway), those Sephiroth "clones" came long after Sephiroth's "demise" in an attempt to re-create Sephiroth. Those were residents of Nibelheim who were abducted by the Shinra Corporation, in an effort to cover up the incident (There's a reason everyone acts so weird and "hush-hush" in the town, in-game; they're people who were paid by Shinra to relocate to that town and make it seem like nothing changed).

Yup, exactly, 100% true! I didn't say that in my mega-post? Huh, maybe I forgot. Yeah, I believe they were actually meant to try and sniff out Sephiroth -- from what Hojo says about the Reunion "theory" being proven, they wanted to find their best uber soldier that had gone AWOL. Since Sephiroth is half-Jenova himself, they figured the best way to find him would be to put J-cells in living hosts and then let them loose and follow them, as the J-cells sought to reunite. Kind of like a half-assed bloodhound.

But that's just my thought, anywho.

 

[Mr. Gorilla]

Sephiroth never controlled Cloud though. Cloud actually differed from the other "clones" (they were really just survivors of Nibelhiem that were experimented on not at all clones) in that he kept his consciousness and self-awareness. His mind may have been screwed up, but it wasn't broken. Sephiroth just prayed on Cloud's weaknesses to his advantage.

Depends on how you define "controlled." Was Cloud a mindless slave like those other "clones?" No. However, he was, for all intents and purposes, insane, and certainly gave in to the influence of Sephiroth-Jenova on multiple occasions. In fact, he was more useful to Sephiroth than the other "clones" in that he did have a mind, but he, like all of them, still showed up at the Northern Crater for the Jenova Reunion, and he carried out his purpose of delivering the Black Materia to Sephiroth. Controlled, but not directly; the game was more or less about him "breaking free" from that control and no longer being a puppet (Hence the final one-on-one battle with Sephiroth; that was a last-ditch effort by Sephiroth to incarnate himself in Cloud and assume complete control over his body, but Cloud was able to overcome his influence and purge his mind of Sephiroth-Jenova, once and for all).

But I also got the sense that he was just a spirit in the Lifestream.... how else could he so effectively block Holy? And I assume that it was important for him to get the BM to his own body because there was a shit load of mako and energy at the point where his body washed up -- the Northern Crater.

It could have just as easily been that Sephiroth was merely "preserved" by the Mako/Lifestream; his will preventing him from dying and becoming one with the Lifestream, putting his body in a coma-like state, but with his mind still conscious and "linked" to the Mako (And Jenova), allowing him to act indirectly through the Jenova fragments/those carrying Jenova cells (Cloud).

Sometimes I wonder if, given the fact that Sephiroth's body drops in to the Northern Crater and you engage him after you battle Jenova and see an image of him in a crystal-like structure at the end of the game, that Bizarro Sephiroth is actually the fusion of Jenova "complete" and Sephiroth's body; a pupa-like state carrying Sephiroth's new, god-like form.

 

[RainbowXtina]

Thank you everyone for your reply. I'm still learning and understanding the entire plot of FFVII! hahah! I don't know why I should take interest in such unimportant things! lol!

if anything, Jenova and Sephiroth became one.

Yes, I think this is what I'm thinking now. Thanks you for putting it into the right words. I try to think of it again and realised that Sephiroth was conscious about his doings unlike Cloud that was being control. Sephiroth wasn't being manipulated but he was being influenced or maybe used by Jenova to continue what Jenova's had been doing.

I never understand why he turned in this what they call, a "mommy's boy" hahah! I really think he look stupid calling Jenova his mother and repeating this "Reunion" thing, expecially in AC.

Sephiroth did found out that Jenova is not an Ancient as he initially thought. he initially believed that the human races betrayed the Ancients and that is why they extinct. And when he discovered that Jenova is an Alien who was defeated by the Ancients, he went on the world destrution mission by sending a meteor which Jenova did 2000 years ago. Then he killed Aeris the last surviving Ancients! Do you see the pattern? I'm thinking that Sephiroth is becoming Jenova. How horrible! lol!

I don't know as much about Weiss, since he never mention about Jenova being related to him. I don't know how exactly he and the other first class soldier in Deepground was created. All I know is, from what I read it that they are created using various extentented version of Jenova project G (which was used to created Genesis and Angel) and the tainted mako energy of Chaos. Hojo also injected Jenova cells into himself but died after that. However he managed to temporally transfer his conciousness to Weiss.

I never understand the crazy Scientist Hojo (althought I did a science reserch degree as well, lol) about why he desire to awaken Omega. Do he just simply want to play around with all the experiments that he had done? Or maybe he is dead so he didn't mind killing all life on the Planet? I also don't undestand Weiss. He initially said he wanted to cleanse the world from what he define as impure. However, summoning Omega with turn the entire planet to dust!

That is why I always think that it all related to Jenova, the one who initially wanted to destroy the planet but never see her wishes come true.

Sigh, confusing huh?

 

[RainbowXtina]

He was physically dead. His body was dead-dead-dead. But his mind was perfectly aware, his consciousness.

I haven't finished reading your megapost, very interesting, will continue it later. However on this point where you said Sephiroth already died when he was thrown by Cloud into the Mako Reactor at the beginning, but the consciousness still survives has a bit of missing spots. How did he manage to have the power to enable his conciousness to survive initially? I know Aeris was an Ancient and she is able to do that as it is her ability. Sephiroth was initially no different from other first class soldier who have Jenova cells in their body. Take for example, Angeal. If Sephiroth can still stay alive as in "life force with it's mind still intact" form, so does Angeal. The game always explain that when a person died, it's lifeforce energy becomes the lifestream. This Life force is then recycle to create another life. Never understand AC when Cloud even saw Zack at the ending. Did he really see them or was he just seeing things! lol?? Did the creators of FFVII even think this new plot and scenes is messing up the original story? lol.

 

[Mr. Gorilla]

I never understand why he turned in this what they call, a "mommy's boy" hahah! I really think he look stupid calling Jenova his mother and repeating this "Reunion" thing, expecially in AC.

He called Jenova his mother repeatedly before and after the big revelation in the original FFVII too, though. In the correct context, it really doesn't look that silly ("Mother" took on more of a symbolic meaning after Sephiroth discovered the truth).

As for why people call Sephiroth a "momma's boy," it was originally a joke (Arising from the fact that Sephiroth went batshit crazy learning the truth about his "mother," Jenova) that evolved in to a stupid thing people who dislike the game use to throw at it. "Oooh, look at the sissy momma's boy villain," despite the fact that he committed dozens of grisly murders and severed the head of his so-called "mother" so that they could become one.

 

[Dragon Mage]

No. However, he was, for all intents and purposes, insane, and certainly gave in to the influence of Sephiroth-Jenova on multiple occasions.

Yes.

Oh thank god, someone said it at last.

Cloud was definitely losing it. Lost his marbles. Off his rocker. A few straws short of a bale. A few sandwiches short of a picnic. A couple of cans short of a six-pack.

Call it what you will, but living an illusion and thinking that someone else's history is yours, we normal folk like to call that schizophrenia. Thank god someone else recognizes this as well! xD

Controlled, but not directly; the game was more or less about him "breaking free" from that control and no longer being a puppet (Hence the final one-on-one battle with Sephiroth; that was a last-ditch effort by Sephiroth to incarnate himself in Cloud and assume complete control over his body, but Cloud was able to overcome his influence and purge his mind of Sephiroth-Jenova, once and for all).

Yup, pretty much. You nailed it on the head, that's for certain. Sephiroth was certainly employing some prodigious mind-screwing skills against Cloud (trying to make Cloud believe that he WAS a puppet and all) but he never actually controlled him. And, just as you said, the final battle was metaphorical but also the defeat of Sephiroth's conscious, which has been the true danger all along.

It could have just as easily been that Sephiroth was merely "preserved" by the Mako/Lifestream; his will preventing him from dying and becoming one with the Lifestream, putting his body in a coma-like state, but with his mind still conscious and "linked" to the Mako (And Jenova), allowing him to act indirectly through the Jenova fragments/those carrying Jenova cells (Cloud).

8D

My thoughts exactly. I'm seriously considering granting you brain twin status, you seem to be reading my mind. :\

I only hold reservations that Sephiroth is in a coma. While it's possible, his body must have died for his soul to be separated from the body in the first place -- unless you're saying that when he went into a coma, his mind/soul got cut free, while the body for all intents and purposes was put into a stasis of sorts? Which would certainly work the same way, I suppose. Hmm. Either way would work, really, despite what happened to the body, the fact that his mind is wandering the Lifestream is what is most important.

Jenova fusing with Sephiroth's body -- creepy.

I haven't finished reading your megapost, very interesting, will continue it later. However on this point where you said Sephiroth already died when he was thrown by Cloud into the Mako Reactor at the beginning, but the consciousness still survives has a bit of missing spots. How did he manage to have the power to enable his conciousness to survive initially? I know Aeris was an Ancient and she is able to do that as it is her ability. Sephiroth was initially no different from other first class soldier who have Jenova cells in their body. Take for example, Angeal. If Sephiroth can still stay alive as in "life force with it's mind still intact" form, so does Angeal. The game always explain that when a person died, it's lifeforce energy becomes the lifestream. This Life force is then recycle to create another life. Never understand AC when Cloud even saw Zack at the ending. Did he really see them or was he just seeing things! lol?? Did the creators of FFVII even think this new plot and scenes is messing up the original story? lol.

Well, it seems you might have a bit of misinformation about the Lifestream.

When a soul returns to the Lifestream, the energy is recycled -- but as Nomura said in the extra stuff that came with AC, the consciousness lives on. Now, he said that this consciousness is carried on in LIFE by the memories of the people that knew that person -- but since we know that a dip in Mako crams millions of memories of past lives into a person's head, that can only mean that all those souls and consciousnesses are still "alive" and individual in the Lifestream. In heaven or whatever it is they may end up.

This is why Cloud sees Aerith and Zack at the end of the movie -- their bodies are long since dead and gone, but their souls are eternal. As Rufus says in the movie about the cycle of life and death, there is indeed a sense of reincarnation here; these souls can return to the living world after a period of time, maybe being recycled just as the energy which is bestowed by the Lifestream does.

So, in this case, Sephiroth's soul did what it was supposed to -- go back to the Lifestream. But he wasn't content to stay there. By sheer force of will, he did not just "dissipate" but actively sought ways to influence the living world. He did that by finding Jenova's body. It must have taken him 7 years to master the new rules of life after death, but he managed it, and it was exactly 7 years later when he powered up Jenova's body in Shinra headquarters, made is shapeshift to look like him, and then went on a roaring rampage of revenge.

Sephiroth is different because he is literally half-Jenova, in a sense. When Hojo injected Jenova cells into Lucrecia while she was still carrying Sephiroth, those J-cells got integrated into his DNA. And considering the choices he made, he chose to be more alien than human.

However, this gives him no greater powers than the other cast of characters. Aerith may have a way with navigating the Lifestream, seeing as how she and download directions directly to her brain, but Zack, Angeal, Wedge, that guy that are sick -- technically, they all could appear if they wanted to and knew how to do it. My guess is that the dead aren't as interested with the living world anymore once they're... well, dead.

Sephiroth just didn't fade away into the Lifestream or be content to stay there by sheer force of will. He refused to let death itself stop him. Just pause and think that over for a second. He falls into the mako. He dies (or, at least, goes into a coma and his mind is severed from his bod). He died just as he discovered the knowledge that he is not human, that he was designed to be Shinra's bloodhound so they could reap profits, and that he was going to destroy the world and all of humanity.

Then he was killed by a grunt that was 16 years old.

And he still came damn close to destroying the world -- after he had died! That's huge. That's an immense force of will that just doesn't lay down and accept defeat. I'm fairly certain that's a kind of motivation hard to come by in your average person's lifetime. It's a testament to Sephiroth's hatred and strength that he was able to do even a quarter of what he achieved.

So, it's very possible for a dead soul to manifest if it knows how/wants to (but you need both to do so). Sephiroth needed more than to just appear though -- he needed a body that wouldn't die, that couldn't feel pain, that would never tire; he needed a tool and he found the perfect one in Jenova's dead body. While his soul was in the Lifestream, he was wandering the earth in Jenova's body, putting his evil plan into motion. It's a scary thought, but there you have it.

Well, I hope that explains it all to ya!

 

[Baron Van Wolfen]

Well, just one thing:

The last battle against Sephiroth wasn't really a mental one, Sephiroth killed Cloud by wrenching out his spirit and bringing it to the lifestream, so he could battle or something. It really was a spiritual battle in the spiritual realm(afterlife, whatever).

Lucky for Cloud, he has a spirit strong enough to remain consistent in the Lifesteam(like CC Seph, Aeris is another example but that's because she is a Cetra not because of formidable spirit) and wasn't fragmented. After overcoming Seph's spirit I think either he just goes back into his body alone or Aeris guides him there.

 

[RainbowXtina]

Hmm, I'm beginning to think I'm crazy because I think about FF and the mysteries of Sephiroth/Jenova whole day at work! lol

> Dragon Mage

Thanks for taking your time to type all those lenghlty explaination. Your understanding of FFVII is very impressive! haha.

Anyway, I remember watching a video of Dissidia that Sephiroth did mentioned that he took his own life to understand the lifestream and what life means better. I would assume that this would happen during the time he was missing for 5 years after the Nibelheim incident. Pity, I can't find that video anymore. Still ,I feel that Sephiroth is being influenced by Jenova indirectly. I make sense to me that he is the one controlling the cells and aware of all his doings but when he mention things like Reunion and using the Planet as a vessel etc it's confusing!

Here, I would like to Quote some of your previous post:

It's important to remember that Sephiroth believes himself to be a Cetra himself and that Jenova is a Cetra as well! This is not true. That is where most of the confusion comes from.

My understanding is that this is what Sephiroth initially thought from the readings in the Shira mansion library. Until he fall into the Mako reactor and "dissolved" into the lifestream he learned a huge amount of knowledge and found out the truth about Jenova and the meteor. If I assume that Sephiroth is extremely intelligent, that would be the reason he is able to learn how to use the Jenova cells in advantage to him. Actually I'm still impressed and found it funny seeing the maths/algebra equations when he send the meteor!

when you get to the temple of the Ancients, and you touch the pool for a 'story' to be told to you by the planet and a ghostly image of Sephiroth arrives -- THAT is the real soul of Sephiroth.

I'm surprised you notice thing like this. I was just surprised to see Sephiroth there!

Btw, I think you mistaken Weiss for Wedge in your previous post. Wedge it that Avalanche guy that died early in the game! lol!

 

[Dragon Mage]

The last battle against Sephiroth wasn't really a mental one, Sephiroth killed Cloud by wrenching out his spirit and bringing it to the lifestream, so he could battle or something. It really was a spiritual battle in the spiritual realm(afterlife, whatever).

I stand corrected! It is a spiritual battle, my bad saying it was mental.

Thanks for taking your time to type all those lenghlty explaination. Your understanding of FFVII is very impressive! haha.

You're very welcome!

Still ,I feel that Sephiroth is being influenced by Jenova indirectly. I make sense to me that he is the one controlling the cells and aware of all his doings but when he mention things like Reunion and using the Planet as a vessel etc it's confusing!

Ah, but you see, he can't be influenced by Jenova because, well, Jenova has no mind. It's dead. The consciousness has fled, and not to the Lifestream, because it is so different it would likely go elsewhere. There literally is nothing to influence Sephiroth at all. As for him mentioning Reunion and using the planet as his vessel, I can only assume that is somehow tied to his goal from AC, which anyone can really guess at. He never really says what he plans to do, just states some appropriately diabolical goal.

But I agree, it is very confusing! xD

Until he fall into the Mako reactor and "dissolved" into the lifestream he learned a huge amount of knowledge and found out the truth about Jenova and the meteor. If I assume that Sephiroth is extremely intelligent, that would be the reason he is able to learn how to use the Jenova cells in advantage to him. Actually I'm still impressed and found it funny seeing the maths/algebra equations when he send the meteor!

You know, I never even thought of that!



That one really knocked me for a loop! Good on you for thinking of that! xD I guess you'd be right, actually, and it makes sense that's what would happen. I can't really argue with you there.

But either way, he did start out thinking that he was a Cetra and so was Jenova. As we know from some in-game dialogue, he's out to make sure Shinra never reaches the Promised Land, and we know he's doing this from pure spite -- I do believe I explained it a bit more in detail in my megapost. He hates Shinra and he hates humanity, and to that end, he'll destroy them both. His motivation isn't noble, but motivated by pure bitterness.

So whether or not he still believe Jenova and himself to be Cetra, and later found out the truth, his goal didn't change at all. He's doing this from hate, and he'll use any excuse to exact revenge -- if this meant succumbing to a particular neuroses and utterly denying the truth, or simply not caring about the truth and going on with his revenge, matters very little.

But I'm impressed by that idea, I really never considered it! xD

I'm surprised you notice thing like this. I was just surprised to see Sephiroth there!

Btw, I think you mistaken Weiss for Wedge in your previous post. Wedge it that Avalanche guy that died early in the game! lol!

Oh, xD trust me, it took a few playthroughs to catch it all in full! There's always something to discover in FF7, as the above just proved!

And nope, I meant Wedge, the rolly-poly dude that likes Tifa's cooking. He could do it, but probably doesn't know how or want to. He was a funny guy, I was mad when he croaked it.

 

[Mr. Gorilla]

Well, just one thing:

The last battle against Sephiroth wasn't really a mental one, Sephiroth killed Cloud by wrenching out his spirit and bringing it to the lifestream, so he could battle or something. It really was a spiritual battle in the spiritual realm(afterlife, whatever).

Source? That wasn't stated in the original game, and in fact, the entirety of the original game's plot pointed to it being a mental state (Cloud overcoming Sephiroth-Jenova's consciousness and whatnot; "Sephiroth pulling Cloud's spirit out in to the afterlife" wouldn't make much sense thematically given Cloud's "puppet" status throughout the game, whereas Cloud overcoming his consciousness makes far more sense and meshes far better with those themes).

If this was in any of the Compilation stuff, well, all of that stuff is crap, more or less butchered FFVII's story and thus shouldn't be considered canon, anyway.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Well, it's rather hard to explain, Gorilla. It's like this -- the battle was a mental one, yes, but it was also metaphysical. Cloud shattered Sephiroth's consciousness, his soul or whathaveyou. That is why in AC, we see the Remnants, which are the leftover splinter's of Sephiroth's mind/soul.

And they were also a convenient plot device for the movie. But that's beside the point.

So while Cloud spaced out for a while, it was also a battle of wills and minds. Not quite one or the other, but some kind of mix of both. And from what I understood, I thought it was just Sephiroth making a last lash at Cloud, the person that had defeated all his plans, as a kind of revenge. More like a ghost assaulting the mind/soul of a living person. And in this case, losing.

Like I said, it's very hard to describe.

 

[Tyrant]

I always thought it was Hojo cause he was the one who injected Jenova cells into his own child, created the Sephiroth clones and started the Reuion.

 

[Emerald Fire]

Hm, it is an interesting theory, but I do believe that Sephiroth became the real puppet master.

Jenova's cells lie dormant in a person's body until they are 'activated'. We'll never really know for sure by whom.

But personally, I do think that Jenova is the one that started it all, but that it was Sephiroth who ultimately led and controlled the events. Sephiroth was the sole successful experiment of Project S, and he was labelled so because he was the first to fully accept Jenova's cells and survive. With Jenova's cells, Sephiroth gained control of her power. I don't think this is something he 'snatched' from her; this is Sephiroth's own power that he gained from a complete integration with Jenova's cells.

But Hojo--and Gast--realised the nature of Jenova's cells. That's where Gast came up with the theory of the Reunion--that all of Jenova's cells would inevitably be drawn back to Jenova. Surely, though, this only works if those cells have a 'host'. If you scrape a few cells and leave them on a slide, they're not gonna magically crawl away back to the main body. Hence the need for a host--aka, a clone.

All of the other Sephiroth clones, or 'failures' as Hojo put it, did not have this complete integration. Their bodies and minds rejected Jenova's cells. As we can see from Cloud during the Nibelheim incident, rejection of Jenova cells can leave the weak-willed completely broken. Cloud ended up with severe mako poisoning as a result of the experiments, something I am willing to bet was common with most of the failed experiments. But as we saw with Cloud, those failed experiments can eventually wake up and reclaim their lives, until the cells 'activate' and they are drawn to the Reunion.

But it's hard to say exactly who is orchestrating the Reunion. It can be argued and is plausible that it was Jenova. It can be said that she used Sephiroth as her main 'avatar' in the world to draw attention from herself and to ensure that all those bearing her cells made it to the Reunion. Surely, we saw all the clones--including Cloud--drawn to Mt. Nibel. Yet why did Jenova choose such a place for a Reunion? Yes, it was out of the way, but was it really necessary? It could be because Sephiroth's real body was there, and she needed to be where all her clones could get to.

But I personally think that Sephiroth was orchestrating the Reunion. Take into account that until the Nibelheim incident, he had no knowledge of the Jenova Project. All he knew was that his 'mother' was Jenova. He had no idea who or what Jenova was. When he did see Jenova's name in the reactor, he had questions, questions which he only found the answers to in Shinra Mansion.

Those reports detailed what they knew and thought about Jenova. They knew she was a calamity from the skies, and it was her goal to destroy the world. Sephiroth, in his growing thirst to know who and what he was, absorbed this information like a sponge. When you then take into account the events of Crisis Core with Genesis and Angeal, Sephiroth's belief in himself was probably already a little frayed. Genesis also did not help matters when he referred to Sephiroth as a 'monster', just like he and Angeal were. So when Sephiroth learns of Jenova's true nature, and knows that he is her son, what else does he think he is expected to do but do as she desired? Angered by the lies he had been told all his life, apalled by his belief that he is also a monster, he chooses to do as Jenova desired and BE that monster, only now his opinion has changed and that it is he and Jenova who are the supreme race, and the others--humans--are an inferior species meant to tremble in fear.

There was no real 'activation' of Jenova cells. Sephiroth, as a successful clone, already had access to Jenova's power. What happened to Sephiroth was that he developed a distortion of the world based on what had happened to him and what he had learned, and acted in the way he now believed to be his right. Also bear in mind that when he did resurface in Midgar, his first act was to eliminate President Shinra, an act of revenge and a sign that he had come back.

Also consider Sephiroth's willpower. He survived grievous wounds that would have killed any normal human--perhaps a bonus of the Jenova cells--and survived in the Lifestream. I truly think it was he who orchestrated the Reunion. It was his name the clones were chanting; I really don't think Jenova would have them chanting his name if it was her doing. When you consider the state of Jenova's body at that point, I wonder if even she had the will to do it. We only heard her speak once, when she labelled Cloud a 'puppet', and that was the only time we saw her act as anything over than any other mindless monster.

Is it not possible that even Jenova's will was overthrown by Sephiroth's desire for revenge. Remember she is an ancient calamity, probably weakened by her fight with the Cetra, sealed away for thousands of years and then cut up for experiments. Then enter Sephiroth, someone whose body is completely acclimatised to her own cells, with an indomitable will and great strength, young and strong, with a burning desire for revenge. I'm not saying Jenova was completely under Sephiroth's control, but I think that between the two of them, Sephiroth had the greater will.

Another key piece of evidence is the second 'Reunion' from Advent Children. Remember when Kadaj took the piece of Jenova and absorbed it. It was Sephiroth who returned, not Jenova. Sephiroth's image and personality, memories and abilities. Kadaj himself did question if Jenova would choose Sephiroth over him, but would Jenova be filled with enough maternal affection as to bring back Sephiroth when she herself could return? Maybe there just wasn't enough cells for a complete Reunion, but I think that Sephiroth's will was still so strong in the Lifestream that he won out over Jenova.

Man... I wrote a lot. I'll probably stop there.