Lightning Returns Lightning returns is a messed up game

[Phosphoric Ooze]

XIII and XIII-2 are very good Final Fantasy games from my experience that i played them.

Lightning returns is messed up with all this god stuff. Not just that it looks like too much stuff is going on when you're fighting an enemy. Even though i own the other 2 games in the trilogy i am never getting this game.

 

[Ethics]

Wait.

It's a messed up game...that you have never played? Have you even read a synopsis of the story?

and too much going on? Are you talking about enemies? Cause the outfit bit is the same exact thing as the paradigm shift...or are you talking about the particle effects? Seriously, I don't understand your points or how you can call it messed up with any expectancy of credibility.

 

[Sheechiibii]

Yeah I agree with Ethics, if you've not played the game then how can you make a case that it's 'messed up'?

 

[Phosphoric Ooze]

Wait.

It's a messed up game...that you have never played? Have you even read a synopsis of the story?

and too much going on? Are you talking about enemies? Cause the outfit bit is the same exact thing as the paradigm shift...or are you talking about the particle effects? Seriously, I don't understand your points or how you can call it messed up with any expectancy of credibility.

I've never played the game and haven't read the synopsis of the story. Yes, too much is going on in a battle and think it's the particle effects.

It's a messed up game from the videos i've watched and that makes it believable.

Yeah I agree with Ethics, if you've not played the game then how can you make a case that it's 'messed up'?

I can assure you it's messed up even without playing the game because i've watched videos of it on Youtube and it's bad.

 

[Bambi]

i wasnt convinced til i played it myself and really enjoyed it

id sooner form my own opinion of my own experiences with the game play

 

[Sheechiibii]

I can assure you it's messed up even without playing the game because i've watched videos of it on Youtube and it's bad.

Well personally I prefer to experience something before I judge it. I never expected to like LR, but when I eventually played it I did. There is far less going on in the battles than there was in either XIII or XIII-2, but then you wouldn't really know what the battles are like if you've not played them. Watching a battle is not at all like playing a battle.

 

[Phosphoric Ooze]

Well personally I prefer to experience something before I judge it. I never expected to like LR, but when I eventually played it I did. There is far less going on in the battles than there was in either XIII or XIII-2, but then you wouldn't really know what the battles are like if you've not played them. Watching a battle is not at all like playing a battle.

Are you kidding me? The proof is in the pudding here. There's way too much going on in Lighting returns battles compared to XIII and XIII-2. It's so confusing to watch never mind playing the game. XIII is simple. Besides, why play a game that uses all this god stuff? That's just messed up.

 

[Sheechiibii]

Are you kidding me? The proof is in the pudding here. There's way too much going on in Lighting returns battles compared to XIII and XIII-2. It's so confusing to watch never mind playing the game. XIII is simple. Besides, why play a game that uses all this god stuff? That's just messed up.

What is going on in the battles that's complicated? In XIII you have 3 to 6 combinations of roles to choose from during battle, and each combination has 3 roles, some of which have up to 20 commands. You cannot say that's not far more complicated than only having 1 combination of 3 roles per battle, and only having 4 commands per role which is what LR has. LR's battle system is very simple.

Also, you do realise that many games have a concept of god or religion right? Including XIII and XIII-2 so complaining about the third continuing the same mythology doesn't make any sense.

 

[Ethics]

^ that.


Also, Ooze, you're coming over like a religious zealot who can't believe your God is being used in a story. I hope that is not the case, but I am just pointing out how you are coming over.

 

[Shaissa]

Lots of FF games use the "god" or religious stuff so that I don't get... And I found the battle system easier to control than in XIII and XIII-2. I mean you don't have to play the game, but you are basically rating it on some little gameplay that you saw.
That would be like rating a movie just on trailers, you really can't really know unless you see it. Same with a game, can't know if you don't play

 

[Ethics]

Ebenezer Scrooge The thing is, you can know if you don't play. Welcome to the age of Let's Plays, streaming and Wikipedia. You cannot, however, make a comment on a story or use of a God if you haven't even read what the story is about or if it actually used tastefully or not.

Ooze, "There is too much going on for me to follow" is a perfectly fine complaint; however, this is something you should actually try yourself before making a comment on. It looks like there is way too much is also a valid complaint.

 

[Soulcorruptor]

As others have pointed many games have used a reference to god or religion in them, a classic example is Xenogears, so bashing a game and calling it a "messed up game" on the sole point of it using god or religion is unfair. As for to much going on in a battle, you are controlling up to 1 person and deciding all the actions yourself now. Unlike in XIII where you had your actions and your party members and had to plan strategies to stagger an enemy and such, or even in XIII-2 where you could actively switch between your two main characters. The shifting is still there like in it's previous instalments but now only managing one char instead of an extra two and needing to worry about their health and stuff, there is actually less going on then the previous two.

As for watching youtube videos that's fine and dandy, it could be a very decent way to see if the gameplay interest's you. But again bashing it without playing it is unfair. Perhaps a better way to put it would be "because of how the gameplay looks, it seems like a bad game to me. The mechanics look to be flawed so it doesn't interest me."

I've played all three myself. Hated XIII but enjoy the later two. If the demo is still floating on psn, unsure if it is, why not give the demo a shot atleast? It gives you enough to experiment with to get a slight feel for the battle system of the game.

 

[Sheechiibii]

Ethics "The thing is, you can know if you don't play. Welcome to the age of Let's Plays, streaming and Wikipedia."

You can know the story and you can know what the game looks like. But when it comes to gameplay and battles especially I don't think you can know what they're really like without playing. Without being in control of the battle yourself how can you know if it's 'messed up' or not, how can you know how complicated it is without experiencing it?

 

[Ethics]

Sheechiibii Not everyone experiences games in the same way, so no. It's a valid complaint to say a HUD is too busy or that the particle effects are overwhelming considering that they are both purely opinionated topics.

Watching games can sometimes offer a different, even better experience, and does not always exclude the viewer from feeling the flow of combat. I don't enjoy watching much, but people like that exist and saying "you have to play it to know" is simply wrong. It's the same as saying the Bourne series uses too many angle cuts in fight scenes, or the shaky camera effect from Cloverfield hinders it...perhaps you are unable to draw these conclusions simply from watching, but we can't assume Ooze is the same as you.

So no, directly playing it yourself is not needed. Sure, it can be more engaging but a game doesn't need you at the helm to show the flow of combat or overwhelming effects. In this way, Ooze is not wrong.

 

[Sheechiibii]

@Sheechiibii Not everyone experiences games in the same way, so no. It's a valid complaint to say a HUD is too busy or that the particle effects are overwhelming considering that they are both purely opinionated topics.

Nobody experiences games by watching other people play them. That's not experiencing, that's just observing. If you're concentrating on playing a game, then you're not going to be watching the animations as much since you'll be paying attention to what moves to use next. Besides, the battle animations in LR were no busier or messier than XIII or XIII-2, less so because there were less characters and enemies flying all over the place at the same time.

Watching games can sometimes offer a different, even better experience, and does not always exclude the viewer from feeling the flow of combat. I don't enjoy watching much, but people like that exist and saying "you have to play it to know" is simply wrong.

It's not wrong. Someone who has never played a game does not know what it is like to play that game. It's impossible to know because to know would be to have played it which they have not done.

It's the same as saying the Bourne series uses too many angle cuts in fight scenes, or the shaky camera effect from Cloverfield hinders it...perhaps you are unable to draw these conclusions simply from watching, but we can't assume Ooze is the same as you.

And yet LR battle scenes are no different from XIII battle scenes or XIII-2 battles scenes other than...having less in them and being less busy.

So no, directly playing it yourself is not needed. Sure, it can be more engaging but a game doesn't need you at the helm to show the flow of combat or overwhelming effects. In this way, Ooze is not wrong.

Directly playing it is not needed to make a judgement on how a game looks. It is, however, needed to make a judgement on how a game plays.

 

[AuronX]

Remember this isn't the Sleeping Forest, guys--careful this stays on-topic.

Now, I don't think this is what the OP means, but I will say that I feel the element of god(s) in LR:FFXIII is just poorly done, and maybe that plays into Ooze's negative feelings. A lot of games and FF games in particular have some religious element to them, sure, but they're either well-developed as part of the story world itself (and thereby disconnected from reality) or just so peripheral that it doesn't really affect the story at all beyond the introduction. In LR's case, the religious aspect just felt way forced and over-done to me. It was like SE ran out of ideas to up the ante, so they just threw in some god-play to try and deliver the ultimate one-up. Heck, the whole base plot of the world ending felt really forced and awkward given the trilogy's roots. The gameplay ended up being ok, but to appreciate the convoluted story you have to suspend your disbelief sky-high.

In other words, you take something that is significant to someone IRL and awkwardly force it into a story where it doesn't fit, it's going to have the potential to leave a bad taste in their mouth.

 

[Ethics]

@Sheechiibii You have a disturbingly narrow and inaccurate definition of what an experience is. Bar that, you are making the same points I made in post #2


@Kirito That is what I asked in post #2 but it seems unlikely he has any idea of how God was used, awkwardly or not, as he has not even read a synopsis of the plot...unless the "videos he has watched" was a hefty LP of it. If Ooze claims to have seen that, then fine, I'll concede that and let him have the opinion on that, otherwise he seems to be drawing a conclusion based on a lack of information...which is where it becomes impossible to take anything he says seriously and comes over as a knee-jerk zealot.

If I'm wrong for pointing out the errors in his argument and that is off topic, then so be it, but he is not arguing his stance to the best of his ability.

 

[AuronX]

If I'm wrong for pointing out the errors in his argument and that is off topic, then so be it, but he is not arguing his stance to the best of his ability.

Didn't mean to say that, I just could see this thread potentially shifting to a religious debate or discussion of what makes an argument valid to begin with. Pointing out errors in an argument is fine so long as it promotes further discussion on the topic at hand

And in that regard, here's a little food for thought:

(Note that I don't necessarily agree with everything said in this video but it does point out some of the general messiness of the game)

 

[Sheechiibii]

@Sheechiibii You have a disturbingly narrow and inaccurate definition of what an experience is. Bar that, you are making the same points I made in post #2

Not really. I don't see how anybody can think that watching something means you've experienced doing it. You haven't, you've just watched others experience it. Which is nowhere near the same as experiencing it yourself. The whole point the OP makes is that the game is messed up and the battles are too complicated. Considering the battle is nowhere near as complicated as the previous 2 games (which the OP has no problem with) it seems to back me up that although they've watched others play the game, they have no idea what it's like to play it themselves. Also, that would probably be because I said I agreed with post #2 when I first replied to this thread.

 

[Ethics]

I don't see how anybody can think that watching something means you've experienced doing it.

You're right, but playing is not the only form of experiencing. You do not have to be the one controlling the game to experience the game. Twitch and Let's Plays were built entirely off of that concept (as was porn). It's perfectly okay if you don't have the same (or even an adequate) experience watching, but you are assuming no one else can. Ooze may be one of those people who can and you should not assume that because he has not played he can't have experienced it.

The only possible thing he can't experience without playing the game is playing the game. There is literally no other content or experience he cannot get via watching or reading...bar perhaps smelling the disc if he is a peasant. That was my concern with your criticism; you are only demeaning the artistic value of any game by implying that playing is the only way to experience it.

Considering the battle is nowhere near as complicated as the previous 2 games (which the OP has no problem with) it seems to back me up that although they've watched others play the game, they have no idea what it's like to play it themselves.

Again, you don't have to play it to experience it.

We have no confirmation on exactly what it is about the battle that throws him off. I thought the same as you, and pointed that out, but I offered some alternatives as to what he could mean. You are throwing rebuttals when his comment was so vague as that we have no clue, and no one disagreed with you, so I just failed to see the purpose. You're giving him incorrect advice and that is all I meant to point out. No attacking, no disagreement in that the OP does not have a valid opinion or anything else. My issue came in when you used Monty Python style logic to deduce his opinion was not at all credible.

The purpose of the me bringing this up was to demonstrate you can experience flow as a viewer, you just have to be observant and know what you are looking for/at...but why did you revisit the combat system? It does seem unlikely that he would hate this part of the combat, so why are you assuming it is Ooze's issue? It could be excessive particles, the lighting, the HUD, the camera placement, enemy model types, background types, and on and on. He was so perfectly vague he could mean nearly any aspect of the combat.

If I'm missing your point, then by all means please clarify. Currently, I feel as I'm seeing this crystal clear and you're (haphazardly) attempting to verify a point I never disagreed with to offer validity to a loosely coupled point that is simply mistaken. If your point is that he hasn't experienced playing it because he hasn't played it, then you win. Otherwise, he could have easily experienced quite a bit of the game.



@Kirito I know, I was only covering my own ass preemptively. How deep do we dig before reaching semantics? Do we walk a chalk line, a path, a road? This isn't Sleeping Forest and normally I wouldn't be in this thread, but people astound me far too often.

Regardless, I think more of what is needed is to simply see/play more of the game/story before making an opinion. Also, people need to not be vague as fuck. Until then, I'll let this thread be.