Lightning Returns Lightning returns is a messed up game

[Sheechiibii]

You're right, but playing is not the only form of experiencing. You do not have to be the one controlling the game to experience the game.

True, there are different types of experiences. You can experience watching something, you can experience playing something. One is not the other. A game is something that is played, if you do not play it then you are not experiencing the game. You are experiencing a video of the game.

Twitch and Let's Plays were built entirely off of that concept (as was porn). It's perfectly okay if you don't have the same (or even an adequate) experience watching, but you are assuming no one else can. Ooze may be one of those people who can and you should not assume that because he has not played he can't have experienced it.

Nobody can experience what it's like to play a game by watching it. This isn't something that's down to opinion. It's a fact that unless you've played something you don't know what it's like to play it. You can know what it's like to watch something if you've watched it.

The only possible thing he can't experience without playing the game is playing the game. There is literally no other content or experience he cannot get via watching or reading...bar perhaps smelling the disc if he is a peasant. That was my concern with your criticism; you are only demeaning the artistic value of any game by implying that playing is the only way to experience it.

Exactly my point, so I don't know why you're arguing with me when you seem to agree. His criticisms are about a game. Specifically the battle, which is something that, unlike cinematics and stories, is very much about gameplay. That's what a game is, it's something you play. Playing is the only way to experience a game as a game. If it can't be played, if it's only a video, or a story, then it's no longer being experienced as a game.

We have no confirmation on exactly what it is about the battle that throws him off. I thought the same as you, and pointed that out, but I offered some alternatives as to what he could mean. You are throwing rebuttals when his comment was so vague as that we have no clue, and no one disagreed with you, so I just failed to see the purpose. You're giving him incorrect advice and that is all I meant to point out. No attacking, no disagreement in that the OP does not have a valid opinion or anything else. My issue came in when you used Monty Python style logic to deduce his opinion was not at all credible.

The OP disagreed with me. So I went into further detail about why I thought the premise of his argument was wrong. That way if I get a response there's already a discussion going on other than 'you're wrong' 'no, you're wrong'. Also, the first person to mention the OPs credibility was yourself: "It's a messed up game...that you have never played?" "I don't understand your points or how you can call it messed up with any expectancy of credibility."

The purpose of the me bringing this up was to demonstrate you can experience flow as a viewer, you just have to be observant and know what you are looking for/at...but why did you revisit the combat system? It does seem unlikely that he would hate this part of the combat, so why are you assuming it is Ooze's issue? It could be excessive particles, the lighting, the HUD, the camera placement, enemy model types, background types, and on and on. He was so perfectly vague he could mean nearly aspect of the combat.

I already addressed this, when it comes to battle it's either going to be the actual battle logistics or it's going to be the animation/cinematic going on in the background. Of course, if you're not playing the game then the background becomes the main focus of the viewer, as the battle play is impossible to experience since you're not playing and becomes background. I already said that even disregarding the play side of things, the background animations etc are no more complicated than XIII's or XIII-2's where there were more enemies and more characters all running about the screen like mad throwing attacks left right and centre.

If your point is that he hasn't experienced playing it because he hasn't played it, then you win

That is, and has always been, my point.

 

[Razberry Knight]

everythign you're complaininga bout in Lightning returns was somewhat present in the previous 13 games. LR had a better gameplay than both of them, but was designed to control one character.

 

[Ethics]

Having the experience of playing a game is not the same as the experience of a game. One is the sense of adventure/excitement/investment and the other is pressing some buttons. It is actually quite easy and valid for him to comment on the battle system if he has only seen it without being in direct control. All that has ever been required is to understand the rules of a game.

You act as though I have somehow reached the same page as you, but I can only seem to reason that you're still misunderstanding the very thing I sought to explain, so I will leave a final concise answer here. If you agree, fantastic. If you don't, you're wrong. Either way, we have reached the same conclusion that Ooze's post was abysmal and there is nothing left here.

You can know the story and you can know what the game looks like. But when it comes to gameplay and battles especially I don't think you can know what they're really like without playing. Without being in control of the battle yourself how can you know if it's 'messed up' or not, how can you know how complicated it is without experiencing it?

With observation, understanding and the willingness to let go of your direct agency for a surrogate.

 

[SquallKefka17]

What is going on in the battles that's complicated? In XIII you have 3 to 6 combinations of roles to choose from during battle, and each combination has 3 roles, some of which have up to 20 commands. You cannot say that's not far more complicated than only having 1 combination of 3 roles per battle, and only having 4 commands per role which is what LR has. LR's battle system is very simple.

Also, you do realise that many games have a concept of god or religion right? Including XIII and XIII-2 so complaining about the third continuing the same mythology doesn't make any sense.

Well look yeah FFVI kefka became god of magic/world, FFVII Sephiroth would have been a Demi God if he became one with Lifestream, Ultimecia if she absorbed time would have become a god in FF VIII ,gods are a recurring theme in FF for sure.

Maybe he was referring to how the game set Lightning up to defeat the God of her world and become their "best character ever in doing so" Square were very desperate for us to believe Lightning was the new Cloud (although I never warmed to him in FF VII myself anyways!) that really got on my goat. And the Lumina story anyone who played FFXIII at time it came out just after playing it and passing it for the first time was told a future sequel would come out and who Lumina would turn out to be/affected the story and Light's character would be saying WTF:wtf: don't mess Lightning up like that with something way way left field of her original character development. I loved Light in XIII I was fed up of her by end of LR she wasn't the same character I was mad about in XIII. Let's not even begin on the crazy ending cutscenes of game.

As for too much happening on screen it was the same as it's predessors to me LR maddened me by just putting nail in coffin of Final Fantasies where you can control your whole party in battle. We can already see it'll continue with XV.

I would advise you to borrow game off someone and play it for an hour though as gameplay is addictive in it nonetheless.

 

[Phosphoric Ooze]

What is going on in the battles that's complicated? In XIII you have 3 to 6 combinations of roles to choose from during battle, and each combination has 3 roles, some of which have up to 20 commands. You cannot say that's not far more complicated than only having 1 combination of 3 roles per battle, and only having 4 commands per role which is what LR has. LR's battle system is very simple.

Also, you do realise that many games have a concept of god or religion right? Including XIII and XIII-2 so complaining about the third continuing the same mythology doesn't make any sense.

I think it's just that there's more animation happening in battle and that's the problem. This has got nothing to do with the commands. Like i said, it's far more complicated than XIII and XIII-2 because there's too much going on in battle. The thing is, Lightning returns is more noticeable with that stuff compared to XIII and XIII-2.

^ that.


Also, Ooze, you're coming over like a religious zealot who can't believe your God is being used in a story. I hope that is not the case, but I am just pointing out how you are coming over.

Not at all. It's just that Final Fantasy is anti-religion according to game theorists. I'm complaining because it's noticeable in Lighting returns.

As others have pointed many games have used a reference to god or religion in them, a classic example is Xenogears, so bashing a game and calling it a "messed up game" on the sole point of it using god or religion is unfair. As for to much going on in a battle, you are controlling up to 1 person and deciding all the actions yourself now. Unlike in XIII where you had your actions and your party members and had to plan strategies to stagger an enemy and such, or even in XIII-2 where you could actively switch between your two main characters. The shifting is still there like in it's previous instalments but now only managing one char instead of an extra two and needing to worry about their health and stuff, there is actually less going on then the previous two.

As for watching youtube videos that's fine and dandy, it could be a very decent way to see if the gameplay interest's you. But again bashing it without playing it is unfair. Perhaps a better way to put it would be "because of how the gameplay looks, it seems like a bad game to me. The mechanics look to be flawed so it doesn't interest me."

I've played all three myself. Hated XIII but enjoy the later two. If the demo is still floating on psn, unsure if it is, why not give the demo a shot atleast? It gives you enough to experiment with to get a slight feel for the battle system of the game.

It's just noticeable in this game and that's part of why it's messed up. Again, it's not the battle system. There's too much going on the screen compared to XIII and XIII-2 because of more animation effects and that's another reason why it's putting me off the game. XIII is the most well done game compared to the other 2 so i don't understand how you can hate eye candy.

Remember this isn't the Sleeping Forest, guys--careful this stays on-topic.

Now, I don't think this is what the OP means, but I will say that I feel the element of god(s) in LR:FFXIII is just poorly done, and maybe that plays into Ooze's negative feelings. A lot of games and FF games in particular have some religious element to them, sure, but they're either well-developed as part of the story world itself (and thereby disconnected from reality) or just so peripheral that it doesn't really affect the story at all beyond the introduction. In LR's case, the religious aspect just felt way forced and over-done to me. It was like SE ran out of ideas to up the ante, so they just threw in some god-play to try and deliver the ultimate one-up. Heck, the whole base plot of the world ending felt really forced and awkward given the trilogy's roots. The gameplay ended up being ok, but to appreciate the convoluted story you have to suspend your disbelief sky-high.

In other words, you take something that is significant to someone IRL and awkwardly force it into a story where it doesn't fit, it's going to have the potential to leave a bad taste in their mouth.

It's just noticeable and pushed out more and that's what turns it into a negative game.

 

[Sheechiibii]

Phosphoric Ooze:

I think there was a lot more animations going on in battle in XIII than in LR. There's less characters running around, less attacks flying about. It's just less messy overall when it comes to animations.

Comparison:

As for anti-religion. I agree, but it's been a running theme in many FF games. I think FFX was far more direct with the anti-religion theme than LR was. LR was more anti-God than anti-religion. Not that I see why it matters, because these aren't religions or Gods that actually exist outside of the games themselves.

 

[SquallKefka17]

Didn't mean to say that, I just could see this thread potentially shifting to a religious debate or discussion of what makes an argument valid to begin with. Pointing out errors in an argument is fine so long as it promotes further discussion on the topic at hand

And in that regard, here's a little food for thought:

(Note that I don't necessarily agree with everything said in this video but it does point out some of the general messiness of the game)

She is so right at end of video when she says Final Fantasy doesn't want to be Final Fantasy these days.

 

[Phosphoric Ooze]

@Phosphoric Ooze:

I think there was a lot more animations going on in battle in XIII than in LR. There's less characters running around, less attacks flying about. It's just less messy overall when it comes to animations.

Comparison:

As for anti-religion. I agree, but it's been a running theme in many FF games. I think FFX was far more direct with the anti-religion theme than LR was. LR was more anti-God than anti-religion. Not that I see why it matters, because these aren't religions or Gods that actually exist outside of the games themselves.

I disagree. Lightning returns is way more messy than XIII.

Proper comparison.

 

[Sheechiibii]

I disagree. Lightning returns is way more messy than XIII.

Proper comparison.

Wait so...I give two videos that compare fighting in XIII and LR with the exact same type of battle, with the exact same monster within about the same timescale and...you give a comparison with two entirely different types of enemies, one of the videos is mostly full of cut scene anyway, one which is a story boss and the other which is a superboss. Well if that's what you think a 'proper comparison' is I don't know why I even bothered...

 

[Shaissa]

Not at all. It's just that Final Fantasy is anti-religion according to game theorists. I'm complaining because it's noticeable in Lighting returns.

So what you don't like is you actually kill the "god" of the FFXIII World?

But in X you destroyed the main religion and its beliefs, XII you kill off the controllers of the world to put the "power into mankind" even Tactics you kill a false god and his demons.

not sure if you played those FF games, but those all have you actually kill gods or false gods of their worlds.

 

[King Sean]

Ah, the game wasn't that bad. I found it to be a very interesting game. It's the story of the trilogy that needs help. The games just became more and more convoluted as they went on. Lightning Returns was a good way to end this saga. The battle system was only slightly annoying, with it being reminiscent of FFX-2 and its dresspheres. The story and it's conclusion did feel a little far-fetched, but still nothing I'm not used to.

I really didn't like the fact that I had to do so many missions, though. It really didn't feel like a Final Fantasy game in that regard. That and it's overall feel did make it a dark horse in the series, but overall the game isn't that bad.

 

[Sunowo]

The game has flaws, but it is not "messed up" imo, although I could agree is the worst of the three. I think it has three big flaws:

1 - Artistic direction is pretty bad. Most Lightning outfits are horrible, and most maps are horrible too if compared to XIII-2 and XIII. Yes they are open and huge this time, but I don't think that's a valid point to make them so ugly. Pulse was also huge in XIII, and it was still beautiful.
2 - Sidequests are really bad developed if compared to XIII-2, but they are especially bad if compared to other games with a time-scheme similar to LReturns. Majora's Mask and Skyrim come to mind. If you have played those, especially Majora's Mask, you know on those games you could actualy follow the story of citizens: they would wake up at their home, go for a walk in the morning, stop to eat at miday, maybe meet their boy/girlfriends at the afternoon, etc. In Lightning Returns this does not happen, people simply pop in and out of existence at certain hours during the day, which is kind of sad since Majora's Mask was released 14 years ago, and Skyrim is one of the most famous games in history. If the sidequests of LR were done in a similar way as those two titles, then all the "limited time" thing would make much more sense.
3 - Lack of content. Everytime I end a final fantasy, I still have lots of things to do. Why this isn't the case with LR?