Mother (Jenova) == Mother earth/mother nature ?

[Molosev]

The main difference I can see is that with the Lifestream it appears to only be spiritual energy which rejoins the Lifestream rapids under the Planet’s crust and then is later recycled as a new lifeform with a new consciousness, etc (and thus the Lifestream as FFVII’s afterlife relied on reincarnation rather than an eternal existence, but the spirit would live on in new life). Whereas with Jenova the energy never transcended into a spiritual form at all and remained corporeal, like a decaying, yet changeable, alien zombie

The statement that Jenova is not composed in part of spiritual energy could be challenged.
At the end of Final Fantasy VII during Cloud's last hallucination, the entity that resembles Sephiroth (an entity possibly contaminated by Jenova) breaks down into small red lights that merge with the green lights of Lifestream. This could be an indication that Jenova also has a spritual existence. Now in the video clip that I present above it seems that the entities are broken down into different colors without being declared as foreign to Lifestream. Maybe these different colors are just there for the purpose of the demonstration but perhaps also that they represent different levels of consicence within the Lifestream.

 

[Dionysos]

The statement that Jenova is not composed in part of spiritual energy could be challenged.
At the end of Final Fantasy VII during Cloud's last hallucination, the entity that resembles Sephiroth (an entity possibly contaminated by Jenova) breaks down into small red lights that merge with the green lights of Lifestream. This could be an indication that Jenova also has a spritual existence. Now in the video clip that I present above it seems that the entities are broken down into different colors without being declared as foreign to Lifestream. Maybe these different colors are just there for the purpose of the demonstration but perhaps also that they represent different levels of consicence within the Lifestream.

I've just watched the ending scene again and I guess it depends on how you view the scene and that whole moment.

Cloud's spirit seems to leave his body and travel through some weird psychedelic tubes before finding Sephiroth in his physical prime (the way Sephiroth probably views himself). After Cloud defeats him, Sephiroth does burst into light and appear to be assimilated into the Lifestream (red at first, but then eventually green lights encircle Cloud).

A few things about this. It can be viewed as a battle of wills between the will of Cloud and the will of Sephiroth. Possibly neither are physically present, but they are battling in spirit only. In 'reality' Cloud appears to be standing on a platform which is breaking apart and about to toss him into the Lifestream (something perhaps his vision was warning him about when green Lifestream particles encircled him). He also imagines Aerith reaching out to him but in reality it is Tifa trying to save him.

Likewise, Sephiroth is still sealed up in the spot he has been in the whole time (being the creepy puppet-master he is), but his will reached out to Cloud for that one final battle after the party defeated him.

At this moment, I do believe it wasn't the body of Jenova which Cloud was fighting. I believe the last piece of Jenova encountered in the game became Jenova Synthesis. After that, it is Sephiroth. While Jenova cells live on through Sephiroth (as well as anyone involved in the Jenova project) he also has human DNA and thus can probably die and filter into the Lifestream like anyone else. The fact that Sephiroth survived as he did after being plunged into the Lifestream during the Nibelheim incident is probably largely to do with the Jenova cells within him, combined with his own will. He was reluctant to join the current of the Lifestream, and wanted things his own way. But he is eventually killed by the player party.

In fact, Sephiroth's death (and the death of others infected with Jenova cells - such as the Crisis Core characters and Hojo) are at the root of Geostigma, for the cells infected the Lifestream which washed over the Planet to hold back Meteor. So in that sense people who contain Jenova cells can become one with the Lifestream.

Another possibility is that it's not that Jenova isn't capable of ever becoming spiritual energy, just that she'd delayed her decay and held onto her mortal, physical boundaries longer than terrestrial lifeforms usually can. So if we were to compare Jenova as a whole with the Lifestream as a whole, the fact that Jenova seemed reluctant to transcend beyond physicality into a spiritual essence appears to be the main difference between them (there are some remarkable similarities otherwise that you have pointed out).


As for the different colours in Bugenhagen's demonstration, it is possible that these are for display purposes only, but we simply don't know enough about it. We only see the Lifestream as a stream flowing with all forms of life merged into it. We never see the tributaries which flow into the Lifestream. It is possible that there are different colours for plant matter, animal life, fungi, etc, but that it all becomes green once it reaches the main channel of the Lifestream. Perhaps that goes a way towards explaining how materia has different colours and isn't all Lifestream green.

That's speculation though. And since the red colour appears to be used for trees in the demonstration, if it was intended it is a little inconsistent when that colour is used for Sephiroth. Of course the colours could mark different things than the type of matter, such as age or type of death, or anything else.

 

[Starships]

The whole "fell from the sky " and the name Jenova being close to the name Jehovah always gave me a Satan/ Anti Christ vibe more so than a Mother Earth one. Or maybe even God himself or in this case herself.

I think it's more of the case of borrowing some themes from the bible.

Final Fantasy loves to have villains that desire to become a god, symbolize pure hate or hatred itself, or a god-like figure. In fact, it seems to be a JRPG theme.

 

[Molosev]

Something that caught my eye recently and that could help tie a link between "mother nature" and "mother Jenova".
If we take the original soundtrack titles for clues potentially connected to the plot and not pure abstract poetry, it's interesting to note that Sephiroth's theme is named "Those chosen by the planet", tending to suggest that Sephiroth is one of those (this piece plays in kind of every scene in which he appears, one could argue that in those scenes the heroes appear too...). This is totallly paradoxical if Jenova's evil influence is already at play during the Nibelheim incident but can possibly work better if Jenova is close to mother nature.

It seems like after all his readings in the Mansion's basement, Sephiroth arrived to the conclusion that it is "mother nature" (Lifestream) who was cheated/harmed. And when he depart to meet his mother at the reactor this is what he has in mind, he wants to help her regain control.
Because what turned it into a mad man can not only be that he learned his mother Jenova was a Cetra (an ancient human). It's also because he learned that the Cetra people decided to stop their migration and began to consume the very spiritual blood of the planet.
So maybe the title reflects how he sees himself at this precise moment, but then why "Those" if Sephiroth is alone doing his things (can't say that the clones are really helping much). Maybe "Those" represent him and his mother.
We know that Nobuo Uematsu wrote the score specifically to accompany the Nibelheim incident. Maybe "Those" refers to every character that participate in this event, Sephiroth included. But in this case, the event could rather be seen as an act of manipulation of its children by the Planet (Lifestream) in order to fulfill its will.
That she decides to arrange the bricks that will lead to her destruction would be an astonishing choice, but perhaps cleaning up herself of the harmful beings that modern Cetra have become would make more sense. And she could also be preparing an attempt to leave on board the meteor, trying to give a chance to the next migration.

Alternatively "Those" could represent everyone in the party except Sephiroth but then why would it be part of the name of his recurrent musical theme ?
Also this is a quite dark musical theme, probably not something that would fit for a heroic team (Could and Co) that would be chosen to save the planet from evil forces. I agree that their "evident" mission (maybe different from Cloud's real mission) is meant to be seen as dangerous, uncertain and scary but I personally wouldn't see this depressing hymn (with a heroic name) as the matching score. I wouldn't have the feeling to receive the slightest mark of encouragement.

I wonder if others can hear a resemblance between the melody of this piece and the melody of the opening cinematic. Something about the scales or the patterns used. Maybe a switch between major and minor modes.
I personally feel a resemblance between the opening cinematic's melody (in which we see Aerith for the first time) and the one from the coresponding scene of the movie "Parking".

 

[Molosev]

Dionysos
I just read an article about Mother goddess (déesse mère), I can't remember if you already mentioned her in our exchanges but I'm pretty sure you did.
I was pleasantly surprised to find the names "mother", "godess", "gaia", "Ishtar" and "Isis" (among many other) on the same page (the french page).
I looked at this picture of her that was represented on an old celtic cauldron and thought that maybe it could have been a reference for Jenova's head.

Jenova's just there to tie together the themes of environmentalism. Shin-Ra, Sephiroth, Jenova--they're all just foils to get the playable characters to find a personal stake in putting the well-being of the Planet above their own.

I find it difficult to conceive that "Jenova" can be used to connect the themes of environmentalism if we consider that it is foreign to the original life of the planet. Environmentalism is by definition a flood of political ideas that aims to preserve the nature of human action, which should therefore be considered a private matter to the planet. To say that "Jenova" is responsible for the degradation of the planet would be to remove any responsibility of the human race for this degradation. Which would rather tend to kill a possible ecologist message in my opinion. But I admit that I have for some time tend to question the primacy of this message in the game. I see more and more the human race in this game as an army of puppets.

If Jenova represents mother godess in some way, I can read a global environmentalist theme that would include Jenova.

I can see wings on this cauldron's panel that make me think of Minerva, Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal and his copies, Omega weapon.

 

[Dionysos]

I wonder if others can hear a resemblance between the melody of this piece and the melody of the opening cinematic. Something about the scales or the patterns used. Maybe a switch between major and minor modes.
I personally feel a resemblance between the opening cinematic's melody (in which we see Aerith for the first time) and the one from the coresponding scene of the movie "Parking".

I think the opening theme does have aspects of Sephiroth’s theme within it. They’ve even doubled down on this in the Remake's introduction because in that they’ve expanded the introduction and have introduced some choral chanting and more explicit Sephiroth elements into it. A sense of foreboding being the intended effect, presumably (and it achieves this, in my opinion).

Like I said in your other thread (and I’ll reply again in there ASAP) I personally think that this theme's title represents either the theme of the struggle with Sephiroth (rather than Sephiroth’s theme itself) or a theme reflecting the delusions of grandeur in that Sephiroth believes himself and Jenova to be chosen by the Planet. His misconceptions in the library about Jenova's identity led him to believe that he had some sort of divine right to cleanse the Planet in some way of the people who had wronged it.

Dionysos
I just read an article about Mother goddess (déesse mère), I can't remember if you already mentioned her in our exchanges but I'm pretty sure you did.
I was pleasantly surprised to find the names "mother", "godess", "gaia", "Ishtar" and "Isis" (among many other) on the same page (the french page).
I looked at this picture of her that was represented on an old celtic cauldron and thought that maybe it could have been a reference for Jenova's head.

If Jenova represents mother godess in some way, I can read a global environmentalist theme that would include Jenova.

I can see wings on this cauldron's panel that make me think of Minerva, Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal and his copies, Omega weapon.

View attachment 8958

There are two forms of Jenova at the Nibelheim reactor that I think we could consider. The first is the metallic effigy presumably created by Shinra (the so-called 'Jenova Doll') which Sephiroth rips out in order to gain access to the second form (the true, organic corpse of Jenova).

I’ve also considered some Ghost in the Shell and Metropolis (German silent film from 1927 which was way ahead of its time) vibes in her metallic effigy and the way the tubes stick into both the effigy and the organic aspect of her. Considering that both of these fictional works contain characters with ambiguous identities (and with Metropolis' False Maria she is a robot turned into a human in order to seduce and lure people into a violent uprising), Jenova the shapeshifter is at home with such themes.

I don't know about any particular confirmed influences on the form of Jenova, but there might possibly be some influences coming from the sculptures and ornaments of various goddesses in various cultures (including earth goddesses). Whether we consider her to be an earth goddess or not, Jenova is definitely presented as being like a goddess (in Sephiroth’s mind at the very least). Both the effigy and the body of Jenova share multiple characteristics with the depictions of deities worldwide.

For example, wings on deities were a fairly common method of expressing divinity in a variety of cultures. It was an easy way to express visually that the figure was above mortal beings. Most forms of Jenova have wing-like structures of some description. The metallic effigy is the only version to have the wings appearing more angelic and beautiful (the Shinra company's rendition of an ideal form for Jenova, perhaps, and the form of the single wings which her 'offspring' Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal, etc, would ultimately grow at some point in their lives). The preserved corpse has fleshy protrusions stretching out from her back which resemble wings in a loose sense. The more grotesque forms of Jenova which are fought by the party tend to have their arms stretched out in a T-shape, but these arms also look a bit like wings with their wingspan at full length (like the Angel of the North pose). The organic forms of Jenova appear to be influenced by the 'weird fiction' genre and the indescribable horrors of the mythos of H.P. Lovecraft, and also films such as John Carpenter's The Thing.

But it has been discussed (here and elsewhere, such as in the book Final Fantasy and Philosophy) that there may be an intended subversive criticism of Western religions in Final Fantasy's Jenova. Jenova, like Jehovah/Yahweh/God is to Japan, is an alien influence on FFVII's Planet - at least that is how the Cetra see her.

In the mind of the Cetra she is feared as a calamitous destructive force, more like Set in some renderings of Egyptian myths, Typhon in Greek mythology, Satan and the anti-Christ in Christianity, and so on. She was probably not actually considered a deity by the Cetra, but I think the symbolism works.

 

[Molosev]

I can indeed see interesting correspondences with the references that you present.

I re-read "Neuromancer" (William Gibson) recently and as you can imagine I found similarities there too . Especially the fact that an artificial intelligence uses the real past (memories) of a character (Armitage) to serve as the basis for a modified personality who will be implanted in this same character. This construction lasts as long as it takes but after a while the character goes crazy and the AI gets rid of him. This manipulated character is the one who give his mission to the hero of the book (Case). In short, a theme of manipulated memories orchestrated by a distant puppeteer (in order to free itself).

Using real memories to create a credible/complex/human personality reminds me of the story of Tifa's memories that would have been used to create Cloud (according to Sephiroth/Jenova).
It seems to be a lie but yet we can think from Ifalna's words that Jenova's invasion method does indeed use memories (specters of the past) to spread.
Jenova/Sephiroth is not supposed to know that our heroes saw the videos of Ifalna. Why then would it have made so that the presented "lie" integrates the idea of "memories"? ... and so echoes Ifalna's story.

If there is a connection with this book, it might be interesting to note that it's Tifa who gives Cloud a mission within Avalanche.

 

[Dionysos]

I can indeed see interesting correspondences with the references that you present.

I re-read "Neuromancer" recently and as you can imagine I found similarities there too . Especially the fact that an artificial intelligence uses the real past (memories) of a character (Armitage) to serve as the basis for a modified personality who will be implanted in this same character. This construction lasts as long as it takes but after a while the character goes crazy and the AI gets rid of him. This manipulated character is the one who give his mission to the hero of the book (Case). In short, a theme of manipulated memories orchestrated by a distant puppeteer (in order to free itself).

Using real memories to create a credible/complex/human personality reminds me of the story of Tifa's memories that would have been used to create Cloud (according to Sephiroth/Jenova).
It seems to be a lie but yet we can think from Ifalna's words that Jenova's invasion method does indeed use memories (specters of the past) to spread.
Jenova/Sephiroth is not supposed to know that our heroes saw the videos of Ifalna. Why then would it have made so that the presented "lie" integrates the idea of "memories"? ... and so echoes Ifalna's story.

If there is a connection with this book, it might be interesting to note that it's Tifa who gives Cloud a mission within Avalanche.

I haven’t actually read that book so I can’t compare it fully, but what you point out is certainly interesting. Aspects of that novel do appear to fit well alongside an examination of the themes of FFVII. Do you recommend it?

Although quite different, it also has echoes of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? and the films based on it (the Blade Runner franchise). Here sometimes real memories (belonging to other people) have been implanted into Replicants in order to make them more believable and to give them emotional anchoring points, but the effect is devastating and leads to much trauma when Replicants who don't know that they are Replicants suddenly discover that their identities are merely downloaded lies.

Cloud's identity crisis shows how much he struggled with Zack's death, and how he took up his mantle to cope and repressed his true memories. Sephiroth, through the Jenova cells, certainly noticed an easy way to manipulate him (both physically and emotionally). As you say, the claim that it goes deeper than that concerning Tifa might be the disingenuous words of a villainous Sephiroth, but it demonstrates the control he had over every inch of Cloud's being at that moment.

I hadn't really thought about it before, but he does appear to have inherited his manipulative nature from his 'mother' Jenova and her tactic of messing with populations of Cetra by pretending to be their dead loved ones and toying with their emotions.

 

[Molosev]

I saw Blade Runner (then read the book) long after playing FF7 so at the time I had no idea that this movie could have inspired the game.
I was then able to understand how the visuals of Midgar at night with the smoke and the neon-lit market (etc ...) could echo the film for many players, but concerning the plot I really did not see the connection.
Now that you mention the human memories that have been implanted in the replicants I feel it stronger.

I haven’t actually read that book so I can’t compare it fully, but what you point out is certainly interesting. Aspects of that novel do appear to fit well alongside an examination of the themes of FFVII. Do you recommend it?

I definitely recommend reading this book which is considered one of the founding work of the cyberpunk genre since having invented the concept of cyberspace (the visual descriptions of the interactions with the network are amazing). (I still have to read the book in english...)
I wondered if FF7 really belongs to the cyberpunk genre if it does not integrate a kind of virtual reality (or at least a strong software connexion between men and machines). But if we consider the Lifestream and the living entities on the planet (and which each integrate a little spiritual energy) as a kind of network then I find that the link becomes more obvious.
In "Crisis Core" and "Dirge of Cerberus" such themes as "network" and "virtual reality" are developed.

Cloud's identity crisis shows how much he struggled with Zack's death, and how he took up his mantle to cope and repressed his true memories. Sephiroth, through the Jenova cells, certainly noticed an easy way to manipulate him (both physically and emotionally). As you say, the claim that it goes deeper than that concerning Tifa might be the disingenuous words of a villainous Sephiroth, but it demonstrates the control he had over every inch of Cloud's being at that moment.

If Cloud was not created out of Tifa's memories. Could Tifa have been "created" from Cloud's ?
I found some interesting coincidences after asking myself this question.

 

[Dionysos]

I saw Blade Runner (then read the book) long after playing FF7 so at the time I had no idea that this movie could have inspired the game.
I was then able to understand how the visuals of Midgar at night with the smoke and the neon-lit market (etc ...) could echo the film for many players, but concerning the plot I really did not see the connection.
Now that you mention the human memories that have been implanted in the replicants I feel it stronger.

I think it is mainly just the similarity between FFVII’s Midgar and the imagined future Los Angeles where people make the comparison generally. Visually rather than thematically. However, the megacorporation themes are also prominent in both.

Perhaps the closest FFVII gets to AI and the question of ‘What is life?’ is with Cait Sith. He’s presented as a toy controlled by Reeve, but it isn’t completely clear whether Cait Sith still has a sort of mind of his own (being ordered rather than directly controlled). Cait Sith appears to have a distinct personality to Reeve, so that opens up an interesting question there.

However, beyond these aspects I do believe that the Blade Runner comparisons are a lot stronger in FFIX. If we look beyond the visual aspects and focus on the themes instead.
I made a thread about some of that here: https://www.finalfantasyforums.net/threads/does-garland-dream-of-electric-chocobos.64021/

I definitely recommend reading this book which is considered one of the founding work of the cyberpunk genre since having invented the concept of cyberspace (the visual descriptions of the interactions with the network are amazing). (I still have to read the book in english...)
I wondered if FF7 really belongs to the cyberpunk genre if it does not integrate a kind of virtual reality (or at least a strong software connexion between men and machines). But if we consider the Lifestream and the living entities on the planet (and which each integrate a little spiritual energy) as a kind of network then I find that the link becomes more obvious.
In "Crisis Core" and "Dirge of Cerberus" such themes as "network" and "virtual reality" are developed.

I'll have to add it to my list.
I don't know where I'd slot FFVII, personally. It isn't true cyberpunk in that sense, although it clearly does take inspiration from the cyberpunk genre. As you say, no digital network (only biological networks through Jenova or spiritual networks through the Lifestream). Although the game does contain human augmentations of a sort with Barret and Dyne with their gun-arms. Some of the aesthetics of cyberpunk are present even if some of the core concepts are absent or used in a very different way.

And then we have Dirge of Cerberus in particular with Hojo uploading his consciousness into a network so that he can 'survive' (in a sense) beyond death. So that is a cyberpunk theme coming into the fore.

If Cloud was not created out of Tifa's memories. Could Tifa have been "created" from Cloud's ?
I found some interesting coincidences after asking myself this question.

Tifa does behave in a rather peculiar way. She doesn't step in to correct Cloud where she might be expected to earlier on in the game. The game presents this as Tifa herself being stunned and confused by what Cloud is saying, and also her own trauma concerning her hometown burning to the ground and her father being murdered. Her own memories may have been murky even without needing the experimentation which Cloud experienced.

The main figure who could answer several of the identity questions is Tifa's mentor, Zangan, but he appears to have disappeared after the Nibelheim Incident. He returned, I believe, only to leave a note for Tifa to find warning her about the impostors now living in the town before he vanished again. I don't believe we ever know what happened to him. I suppose with no other survivors, we only really have Cloud and Tifa's word for their side of the story of the Nibelheim Incident even after Cloud regains his identity.

This is what makes the Nibelheim Incident so fascinating. We see it from so many different angles across the Compilation and it really does create a sort of Rashomon effect.

 

[Molosev]

I think it is mainly just the similarity between FFVII’s Midgar and the imagined future Los Angeles where people make the comparison generally. Visually rather than thematically. However, the megacorporation themes are also prominent in both.

Perhaps the closest FFVII gets to AI and the question of ‘What is life?’ is with Cait Sith. He’s presented as a toy controlled by Reeve, but it isn’t completely clear whether Cait Sith still has a sort of mind of his own (being ordered rather than directly controlled). Cait Sith appears to have a distinct personality to Reeve, so that opens up an interesting question there.

However, beyond these aspects I do believe that the Blade Runner comparisons are a lot stronger in FFIX. If we look beyond the visual aspects and focus on the themes instead.
I made a thread about some of that here: https://www.finalfantasyforums.net/threads/does-garland-dream-of-electric-chocobos.64021/

I just read this thread and I found your observations extremely interesting and very well presented.
I didn't complete either FFI or FFIX, and I don't remember Garland at all, but the fact that this character appears in the game's first installment, and that in the ninth installment he seems so inspired by a replicant from K. Dick's book (without forgetting the potential references to the movie in VII), makes me think that this theme of bodies/constructions in which spirits are breathed in could be a foundation of the franchise from the start !

That's good because I just have the impression of having discovered how this theme is used in FFVII.

Tifa does behave in a rather peculiar way. She doesn't step in to correct Cloud where she might be expected to earlier on in the game. The game presents this as Tifa herself being stunned and confused by what Cloud is saying, and also her own trauma concerning her hometown burning to the ground and her father being murdered. Her own memories may have been murky even without needing the experimentation which Cloud experienced.

The main figure who could answer several of the identity questions is Tifa's mentor, Zangan, but he appears to have disappeared after the Nibelheim Incident. He returned, I believe, only to leave a note for Tifa to find warning her about the impostors now living in the town before he vanished again. I don't believe we ever know what happened to him. I suppose with no other survivors, we only really have Cloud and Tifa's word for their side of the story of the Nibelheim Incident even after Cloud regains his identity.

This is what makes the Nibelheim Incident so fascinating. We see it from so many different angles across the Compilation and it really does create a sort of Rashomon effect.

That is the fragile foundation that I will try to shake

I think that to say Tifa has Cloud's memories I'll need to develop three arguments:
1 - that Jenova's method effectively allows someone's memories to be transferred to another body.
2 - that we can attend a scene during which this method has been used.
3 - that events related to Tifa shows that she's affected.
bonus - that the method has been used on other people with comparable/observable results.

Let's start with:

1 - Does Jenova's method effectively allows someone's memories to be transferred to another body ?

Sephiroth:
The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova.
Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you.
Out of Tifa's memory......

Jenova could potentially merge with someone's spirit (memories) into someone else's body.
So this person's look and voice would have been changed and if Jenova is in control then she could easily change his words too (puppet).

Does this behavior correspond to what the Cetras observed 2000 years ago (Ifalna's words)?

Ifalna:
When the Cetra... were preparing to part with the land they loved...
That's when it appeared!
It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past.

The Cetras are approached by the bodies of people they recognize but know to be dead.
These bodies show them specters of their pasts.
Would these specters be a metaphor for talking about the memories that the things share with their preys ?
The method seems to work with people who know each other (family, friends) and who therefore certainly have memories in common.

Ifalna:
That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the sky', as we call him, came.
He first approached as a friend, deceived them, and finally...... gave them the virus.
The Cetra were attacked by the virus and went mad... transforming into monsters.

Once the target Cetras are reassured, it is possible to approach them and inject them with something.

This something (Jenova's cells presumably) is capable of turning its target into a violent monster (a killer),
but does it also help to copy the memories of the target and to bring it back to Jenova?

In CC, Jenova's power is presented as a two way conduit. Seems like the perfect tool to send something and pick up something else in return.

Here is an infographic that presents my interpretation of Jenova's power and how it potentially have been used against the Cetras:

I think this type of chain reaction could interestingly explain how Jenova efficently took power over the Cetras.
It also weaves a solid link between the two main quotes which evoke Jenova's method.
Above all I think it highlights the potential that the appropriation and the manipulation of memories could have on a target. (not used in the game ...)


Well that's it for the first part. I can't hide that I will be very interested to have your opinion on this argument !

 

[Dionysos]

I just read this thread and I found your observations extremely interesting and very well presented.
I didn't complete either FFI or FFIX, and I don't remember Garland at all, but the fact that this character appears in the game's first installment, and that in the ninth installment he seems so inspired by a replicant from K. Dick's book (without forgetting the potential references to the movie in VII), makes me think that this theme of bodies/constructions in which spirits are breathed in could be a foundation of the franchise from the start !

Thanks! I don’t know many people who are familiar with Blade Runner or Do Androids Dream... on this site, so I jumped at the chance to slot that in here for you to hopefully appreciate.

Yeah, it does appear to be a common theme. The Giant of Babil and the multiple creations of Dr. Lugae in FFIV are other examples, but there are many throughout the franchise. FFXIV does some interesting things with the idea too.

Let's start with 1: Does Jenova's method effectively allows someone's memories to be transferred to another body ?

Jenova could potentially merge with someone's spirit (memories) into someone else's body.
So this person's look and voice would have been changed and if Jenova is in control then she could easily change his words too (puppet).

Does this behavior correspond to what the Cetras observed 2000 years ago (Ifalna's words)?

Putting aside the canon interpretation of the plot for a moment, I think all of this is possible considering what we know about Jenova. It certainly would be within her skillset to mess with people by creating the Cloud we are familiar with from Tifa’s memories. Especially considering that Cloud was extremely close to Jenova during the Nibelheim incident at the precise moment when Sephiroth decided to take a slice of her. Jenova’s corpse had some exposure time with Cloud (add to that the memories of Sephiroth which could also have fed back into the Jenova organism's system). When Hojo injected her cells into Cloud then there could have been plenty of material to work with - the cells of Jenova may well already have been familiar to some degree with their host body.

Canonically, Cloud was certainly messed with anyway and was manipulated via the Reunion urge to lose control at several points (most critically the moment he handed over the Black Materia to Sephiroth).

An interesting sub-theory could develop from that… Considering that Tifa’s memories are to play a role in the formation of the Cloud identity, it could even be something like this. Tifa is near death after being stabbed by Sephiroth, sees Zack the Soldier also get defeated. Cloud reveals himself as an infantryman and Tifa sees him face Sephiroth. The guy who promised to be her hero finally turned up. Could it be that Tifa might partly be responsible for the heroic Zack/Soldier persona getting mixed with Cloud’s original self? Could Jenova have worked with Tifa's memories to create a Cloud which confused not only Cloud himself, but also Tifa?

As we mentioned, despite not having Jenova cells herself, Tifa’s memories of the Nibelheim incident are also quite muddled. This is partly due to the trauma of her father’s death and deaths of many of the people she knew, but it is possibly also due to the mental games of Sephiroth/Jenova via the Jenova cell infected Cloud turning up in her life once more swinging around Zack’s Buster Sword as if it was always his. That must have been a cue which triggered something within her somewhere. It would have to have registered to some extent. Did she block it out? Was she being manipulated into taking Cloud's new identity at face value?

Tifa in the original game (and I guess in the Remake too) appears to be silently struggling with what happened and reconciling facts in her own mind. When Tifa helps Cloud out in the Lifestream after Mideel, she doesn’t only fix Cloud’s memories but also helps to clarify her own. I guess we also only have their own (relatively unreliable) opinions that they truly emerged with the correct account when they left the Lifestream.

The Cetras are approached by the bodies of people they recognize but know to be dead.
These bodies show them specters of their pasts.
Would these specters be a metaphor for talking about the memories that the things share with their preys ?
The method seems to work with people who know each other (family, friends) and who therefore certainly have memories in common.

It could be that, or it could be that Jenova’s reconstruction of their dead family members were themselves the ‘spectres’ (as in the dead returned). But it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to imagine that the victims would also see flashes of memories once they come into contact with these imposters.

Once the target Cetras are reassured, it is possible to approach them and inject them with something.

This something (Jenova's cells presumably) is capable of turning its target into a violent monster (a killer),
but does it also help to copy the memories of the target and to bring it back to Jenova?

In CC, Jenova's power is presented as a two way conduit. Seems like the perfect tool to send something and pick up something else in return.

Here is an infographic that presents my interpretation of Jenova's power and how it potentially have been used against the Cetras:

View attachment 9445

I think this type of chain reaction could interestingly explain how Jenova efficently took power over the Cetras.
It also weaves a solid link between the two main quotes which evoke Jenova's method.
Above all I think it highlights the potential that the appropriation and the manipulation of memories could have on a target. (not used in the game ...)


Well that's it for the first part. I can't hide that I will be very interested to have your opinion on this argument !

This theory that the infection of Jenova was related to memory is fascinating, and in my opinion quite plausible, based on what we know about Jenova. I like the diagram as it shows how the spread of Jenova would keep multiplying, like a real virus. It would make sense that when Jenova took over a Cetra victim, she would learn their memories in order to better manipulate the victim’s friends/family and acquire more victims.

In fact this would be very similar to the creature in John Carpenter’s film The Thing. I do think this has partly inspired, or can at least be compared with Jenova. The group are driven insane as the alien matter infects them and could take the form of any member of the party (to gruesome effect). Likewise, H.P. Lovecraft’s novella At the Mountains of Madness also deals with modern scientists discovering ancient cosmic entities long buried and forgotten in the ice. The discovery, and manipulation from these beings, sends many of the scientists insane. What do all of these stories have in common? They take place in the poles (Antarctica in the case of The Thing and At the Mountains of Madness and the Northern Knowlespole region in Final Fantasy VII, where Jenova is discovered in the North Crater). It would appear to be a trend.

The moral of the story: don’t dig up any cosmic entities from the ice or you might lose your sanity.

I think your theory makes sense regarding Jenova. She would need to learn the knowledge about the people she seeks to replicate/imitate somehow, so absorbing memories via the network of cells of infected Cetra would be an effective way of perpetuating her spread. An organism which has transcended a single mortal body and has turned into a vast network of cells, absorbing memories and adapting accordingly. To an extent I do believe that this is how Jenova works.

As I think we discussed elsewhere at an earlier time, Jenova's human-like image might have been an adaptation in order to appear like the Cetra. Her/its 'real' form, if it has one, might be truly indescribable like the monsters of H.P. Lovecraft. Or indeed like Jenova's varied boss forms created out of her discarded organs.

-
As for the theme of memory being important across the franchise as a whole? Yes! Absolutely!

In FFX we are invited to ponder over to what extent Tidus is alive/conscious. Were all of his memories from Zanarkand ‘real’?

FFV’s Galuf suffers from plot-convenient amnesia for much of the game. Faris and Reina/Lenna also have their own memories to confront and reconcile as they come to terms with the fact that they are long-lost sisters. The relationship between memory and identity is critical here too.

Then there is Exdeath. When a collection of evil spirits join together, possess a tree and then condense into a humanoid form, what does this entity’s identity look like? What are its memories?

FFVIII has its own memory distortion due to Guardian Forces. That means that the memories of the player party are unreliable too. They forgot that the majority of them grew up together in the same orphanage, that Edea was actually not an evil sorceress but their mother-figure. When they confront the truth and begin to reconcile their memories, their identities shift and things can move forward.

There will be many other examples, I am sure. It is quite a prominent theme in the franchise.

 

[Molosev]

Thank you for the great feed back !
It's rare to find someone willing to put the canon interpretation aside and follow this far.

Thank you for presenting this reference to The Thing. It gave me the opportunity to re-see this film that I really liked. I had read At the Mountains of Madness a few years ago (the only Lovecraft work I have read so far).
And I think you're right, these two works seem to have inspired the character/environment of Jenova. This can help support Lucrecia's claims that Jenova is indeed a parasite foreign to the planet (especially with regard to The Thing which clearly shows that the alien arrived in a flying saucer). Support that bothers me a bit as you may imagine lol but I imagine they didn't follow the script for "The Thing" to the letter either.

I also really like your sub-theory about Tifa being manipulated into taking Cloud's new identity at face value, even if I didn't take the time to study all the ins and outs...

But how would she have been manipulated. Was it the dramatic chain of events revived by the sudden meeting with Cloud that would have made the mental confusion/assimilation possible or was it Jenova's method (as I describe it) that could have opened an access to Tifa's memories in order to modify them... (replace/merge them with Cloud's) because yeah I'm trying to show that it could rather be Tifa that would have been created from someone elses memories (Cloud's)

So with you relatively thinking that my interpretation could bear some truth I guess we're ready to move to:

2 - Can we attend a scene of the game during which Jenova's method could have been used ?

I tried to apply Jenova's method to the experiences Cloud went through and couldn't find any particular situation really matching. But when I tried to apply the method to the experiences Tifa went through, some situations started to make sense in an interesting way.

If we consider the modus operandi that I proposed above and apply it to the Nibelheim incident.

Sephiroth slices Jenova's throat, so his sword is soiled with Jenova's blood (cells).
Then he pierces Cloud and injects him with the cells (the virus), Cloud's memories are copied and goes to Jenova.
The infected Cloud transforms into a "monster", which gives him the strength to kill Sephiroth.

Technically Sephiroth could be the corpse in which Cloud's memories could have been implanted, but that seems unlikely. So is anyone else dead?

I think you'll agree with the idea that the developers staged the miraculous aspect of Tifa's survival, but without this aspect finding any clear/obvious meaning in the game.

- First there is the massive sword stroke, followed by the vertiginous fall and succesive rebounds.

- Then Tifa asks herself the question when Cloud evokes his memories of the Nibelheim incident (Kalm):

Cloud
......I want to know the truth. I want to know what happened then.
I challenged Sephiroth and lived. Why didn't he kill me?

Tifa
......I'm alive, too.

Tifa
.........
Cloud...?
How bad was I when Sephiroth cut me?

Cloud
I thought you were a goner. ......I was really sad.

Tifa
.........

- And finally if I remember well, there is a trace left by Zangan (Letter + On the way to a smile) which explains that he tried to find a doctor to treat Tifa but that he did not find anyone available even in Midgar.

I'm sorry to say that because I know a lot of people love Tifa but I really think she could have died.

So we would have a fresh monster (Cloud) and his recorded memories plus the necessary body (killed by monster Sephiroth), all this gathered in the same place at basically the same time, and with events correctly organized chronologically to allow the success of a Jenovesque intervention (according to my interpretation).

Do you think that sounds like an interesting coincidence? Or the pretty well arranged words of a deep fried fanatic which I claim to be.

 

[Dionysos]

Sorry I am quite late with this response. A lot of behind the scenes forum stuff and I had another article I really wanted to get out there!

I had read At the Mountains of Madness a few years ago (the only Lovecraft work I have read so far).

It’s one of my favourites. I’m sure many would disagree but I suggest that the three most culturally significant Lovecraftian works would probably be Call of Cthulhu, The Shadow over Innsmouth and At the Mountains of Madness.

I believe these three have impacted popular culture and imagination the most. I really wish the director Guillermo del Toro had received the green light to go ahead on his planned film version of At the Mountains of Madness.

And I think you're right, these two works seem to have inspired the character/environment of Jenova. This can help support Lucrecia's claims that Jenova is indeed a parasite foreign to the planet (especially with regard to The Thing which clearly shows that the alien arrived in a flying saucer). Support that bothers me a bit as you may imagine lol but I imagine they didn't follow the script for "The Thing" to the letter either.

Exactly. If there is inspiration (and I think there could be as this is definitely the same trope) it needs to only loosely fit what we actually see in the game. There’s a lot going on here at the same time.

Jenova may resemble the Thing, but she is also many other things. Jehova being an important one, as we’ve discussed elsewhere. She also resembles the Norse goddess Hel, according to M. J. Gallagher’s view of the character which ties her to her location at Nibelheim too.

First and foremost she is an original character created by Square Enix, but she may have been inspired by various stories and tropes which her creators had whizzing about in their heads at the time. We might notice where she connects with mythology, literature or popular culture but we’ll never need to connect every single aspect of her story with any of these.

But how would she have been manipulated. Was it the dramatic chain of events revived by the sudden meeting with Cloud that would have made the mental confusion/assimilation possible or was it Jenova's method (as I describe it) that could have opened an access to Tifa's memories in order to modify them... (replace/merge them with Cloud's) because yeah I'm trying to show that it could rather be Tifa that would have been created from someone elses memories (Cloud's)

Possibly a bit of both? If we roll with this theory, quite possibly the manipulation of Tifa’s memory began during the incident itself. Reuniting with Cloud could have triggered a next phase in it, confusing her greatly.

So with you relatively thinking that my interpretation could bear some truth I guess we're ready to move to point 2:
"Can we attend a scene of the game during which Jenova's method could have been used ?"

I tried to apply Jenova's method to the experiences Cloud went through and couldn't find any particular situation really matching. But when I tried to apply the method to the experiences Tifa went through, some situations started to make sense in an interesting way.

If we consider the modus operandi that I proposed above and apply it to the Nibelheim incident.

Sephiroth slices Jenova's throat, so his sword is soiled with Jenova's blood (cells).
Then he pierces Cloud and injects him with the cells (the virus), Cloud's memories are copied and goes to Jenova.
The infected Cloud transforms into a "monster", which gives him the strength to kill Sephiroth.

Technically Sephiroth could be the corpse in which Cloud's memories could have been implanted, but that seems unlikely. So is anyone else dead?

I think you'll agree with the idea that the developers staged the miraculous aspect of Tifa's survival, but without this aspect finding any clear/obvious meaning in the game.

- First there is the massive sword stroke, followed by the vertiginous fall and succesive rebounds.

- Then Tifa asks herself the question when Cloud evokes his memories of the Nibelheim incident (Kalm):


- And finally if I remember well, there is a trace left by Zangan (Letter + On the way to a smile) which explains that he tried to find a doctor to treat Tifa but that he did not find anyone available even in Midgar.

I'm sorry to say that because I know a lot of people love Tifa but I really think she could have died.

So we would have a fresh monster (Cloud) and his recorded memories plus the necessary body (killed by monster Sephiroth), all this gathered in the same place at basically the same time, and with events correctly organized chronologically to allow the success of a Jenovesque intervention (according to my interpretation).

I don’t think Cloud’s strength needs to be explained as him becoming a monster. If he inherited Jenova cells through the blood on Sephiroth’s sword, I don’t think they would have absorbed into his own blood and activated so quickly. Instead, I think it would be a combination of the basic training he had undertaken as an infantryman combined with a HEAVY dose of adrenaline. People have been documented to be capable of extraordinary things in certain situations with adrenaline pumping through their veins, and I think this is what happened to Cloud in this instance. He was the unpredictable variable in this situation.

The point about Tifa’s survival is certainly curious. You’re right, when you think about how we witness her getting slashed across the body by Sephiroth, rebound off every metal step in the reactor, and is left there bleeding out, it is definitely peculiar that she lived. Not only lived, but apparently survived without a scratch. The clothes she wears following this incident allows us to see this quite clearly. She is in no way disfigured by her injuries.

If Tifa died during the incident, it would certainly tie in with the references to Heaven connected with her character (her bar Seventh Heaven being the main one, but also her ultimate limit break Final Heaven).

Whether she survived by chance, by Jenova cell interference, or if she died and was replaced by a Jenova imitation, I think you make a good point about the peculiarity of Tifa’s survival here. I think we’re supposed to think that Zangan dragged her out of danger and used healing magic on her, but we still need to suspend disbelief in order to accept that as anything other than a miracle. If Zangan hadn’t vanished after the incident, if his healing magic is that potent he could have seriously been useful during Aerith’s death scene!

One key point that doesn’t support the Jenova-doppelganger theory or the Jenova cells being within Tifa theory would be how she isn’t affected by the pull of the Reunion, unlike Cloud. It could be that her own mental confusions surrounding the incident are a result of trauma rather than anything deeper.

Unless we want to go full tinfoil hat and suggest that a Jenova imitation of Tifa was able to suppress the cells from detection and maybe even convinced themselves that they were the real Tifa in order to blend in more effectively.

Do you think that sounds like an interesting coincidence? Or the pretty well arranged words of a deep fried fanatic which I claim to be.

I like the imagery of a deep fried fantatic.

Putting aside the canon, I think it is a fascinating theory. Bringing the canon back into the equation, I think it still highlights important discussions people need to have about Tifa.

I don’t think it is likely that the Tifa we see in the game is anyone else other than Tifa, but this theory certainly illustrates the confusions within Tifa’s own mind (often overlooked because of the prominence of Cloud’s struggle in the plot) as well as her miraculous survival which is so often underplayed.

I'm very interested to see where the Remake takes the Nibelheim incident scenes, and Tifa's role in them in particular.


As an aside, this video by Final Fantasy Peasant is quite interesting and relevant to some of your ideas about memory transference (particularly from 9 minutes onwards). It suggests that the idea of memory transference has been considered by the developers, at least with a particular prominence in the Remake.

 

[Molosev]

Sorry I am quite late with this response. A lot of behind the scenes forum stuff and I had another article I really wanted to get out there!

Don't apologize, it gives me even more pleasure to receive something I've been waiting for.
I haven't read your article on Phoenix yet, but it looks like it fell right on the heels of the FFXVI announcement, a real gift!

It’s one of my favourites. I’m sure many would disagree but I suggest that the three most culturally significant Lovecraftian works would probably be Call of Cthulhu, The Shadow over Innsmouth and At the Mountains of Madness.

I put these names on my list

Possibly a bit of both? If we roll with this theory, quite possibly the manipulation of Tifa’s memory began during the incident itself. Reuniting with Cloud could have triggered a next phase in it, confusing her greatly.

In that case, maybe Jenova is manipulating Cloud (cells) to guide him to Tifa in sector 7 in order to trigger this confusion. But how would she have known that Tifa was in this sector... Maybe she has spies.
What significant benefit could Jenova derive from Tifa's disorientation?

Perhaps if Tifa accepts that Cloud is a SOLDIER (a strong guy) she will enlist him in AVALANCHE which will have the effect of bringing Cloud closer to Jenova's prison in order to disorient him by reminding him of certain memories.
But if Jenova can manipulate Cloud with her cells, why would she need him to be disoriented?

Maybe Jenova seeks to benefit a delay in reaction that would allow her to lead Cloud to Sephiroth without encountering too much resistance see with some support.
But wouldn't it be a bit risky as a maneuver ? There was little chance that Tifa wouldn't immediately tell Cloud that he had the wrong personality.

I don’t think Cloud’s strength needs to be explained as him becoming a monster. If he inherited Jenova cells through the blood on Sephiroth’s sword, I don’t think they would have absorbed into his own blood and activated so quickly. Instead, I think it would be a combination of the basic training he had undertaken as an infantryman combined with a HEAVY dose of adrenaline. People have been documented to be capable of extraordinary things in certain situations with adrenaline pumping through their veins, and I think this is what happened to Cloud in this instance. He was the unpredictable variable in this situation.

Cloud's extraordinary strength during this incident may be explained by the reasons you give, but in any case I think it's safe to say that the extraordinary (permanent) strength and abilities he has at the start of the original game can be explained as having become a monster. That is to say, he obtained a great strength because he came into contact with Jenova cells but without special training.

I don't think the Cetras that were massively infected with the virus and turned into monsters 2000 years ago were it in controlled surgical procedures, rather it must have been dirty in my opinion.
This is what allows me to speculate that Cloud may have been infected (transformed into a monster) by Sephiroth's tainted blade without Hojo's stated surgery being required.
As for the incubation speed I don't think we have enough information to say that it should be slow or fast, so I suggest that it can be almost instantaneous

The point about Tifa’s survival is certainly curious. You’re right, when you think about how we witness her getting slashed across the body by Sephiroth, rebound off every metal step in the reactor, and is left there bleeding out, it is definitely peculiar that she lived. Not only lived, but apparently survived without a scratch. The clothes she wears following this incident allows us to see this quite clearly. She is in no way disfigured by her injuries.

If Tifa died during the incident, it would certainly tie in with the references to Heaven connected with her character (her bar Seventh Heaven being the main one, but also her ultimate limit break Final Heaven).

Whether she survived by chance, by Jenova cell interference, or if she died and was replaced by a Jenova imitation, I think you make a good point about the peculiarity of Tifa’s survival here. I think we’re supposed to think that Zangan dragged her out of danger and used healing magic on her, but we still need to suspend disbelief in order to accept that as anything other than a miracle. If Zangan hadn’t vanished after the incident, if his healing magic is that potent he could have seriously been useful during Aerith’s death scene!

The fact that Tifa's body does not bear any marks of injury (even in the remake) goes totally against my theory because in my opinion if Tifa is dead it is really her original body that we meet in the game and which is controlled by Jenova. But it also goes totally against the canon that would have it be true Tifa.

Edit:
I watched The Last Order : Final Fantasy VII again and in the scene which corresponds to that of the original game, as Sephiroth hits Tifa, the screen goes black and a line of light emerges to represent the hit. Then we directly see Tifa's belly in close-up and it shows no signs of injury. Then she falls down the stairs.
We can notice that the wounds Sephiroth and Cloud receive are marked by the presence of blood.
If we analyze the structure of the animation we realize that it is her head that goes back first, it would certainly be the abdomen if she had been hit there.
So it could be that Sephiroth just hit Tifa in the face without slicing her with his sword. The blow was violent for sure, you only have to see the expression on Tifa's face to realize it. Maybe this SOLDIER 1st class' blow caused irreparable internal damages....

One key point that doesn’t support the Jenova-doppelganger theory or the Jenova cells being within Tifa theory would be how she isn’t affected by the pull of the Reunion, unlike Cloud. It could be that her own mental confusions surrounding the incident are a result of trauma rather than anything deeper.

Perhaps one of the difficulties to understand/accept this theory is the idea that Jenova would need to inject her cells into the body of the person whose memories she wants to extract when she wouldn't need to inject her cells in the body (dead) of the one in which she wishes to implant these stolen memories (see diagram above).


Sephiroth:

Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you.
Out of Tifa's memory......

So Jenova can possibly merge with memories and thus achieve an existence in the form of spiritual energy (admitting that there is some truth in what Sephiroth says).

According to my theory Tifa would not have Jenova cells because Jenova has merged with the memories she stole from Cloud and therefore in the form of spiritual energy she is then able to join Tifa's dead body whose spiritual energy is already gone (or on the go).

Tifa(Jenova) would therefore not be influenced by the pull of the reunion. If ever there really exists a reunion pull! (an idea that I will have to come back to)

As an aside, this video by Final Fantasy Peasant is quite interesting and relevant to some of your ideas about memory transference (particularly from 9 minutes onwards). It suggests that the idea of memory transference has been considered by the developers, at least with a particular prominence in the Remake.

I really like Final Fantasy Peasant's theories, I also discovered those of Sleepezi recently which are really interesting too.
For the moment no one seem to come to my conclusions even if a few ideas intersect. Maybe mainly the idea that the planet (the Lifestream) seems to be more active than what was generally accepted.

---

I understand that you are not convinced by my arguments about Tifa being a Jenova puppet, so I will continue to develop (Thank you for giving me the opportunity) And so we arrive to :


3 - Could events that relate to Tifa show that she bears some memories that belong to Cloud ?

3.A - Tifa questions Cloud's version - (script transcribed by yinza.com)​

The contact with the Ultimate Weapon (which has the effect of placing Tifa in a particular state of consciousness) leads her to justify herself for something.

Tifa

......I didn't know what to do. I was always like that...

Who is she trying to convince, is it herself, Cloud, or the Lifestream?

then Tifa recounts the fact that what Cloud told her following their meeting at the station in Sector 7, words that cover what he did for five(seven) years, seemed wrong.

Tifa
Actually, it's been seven years.
You got your wish and joined SOLDIER, quit after the Sephiroth incident, and now you're a mercenary...
You told me a lot about what happened after you left Nibelheim...
But...
...Something's wrong. I felt there was something strange about the things you talked about.
All the things you didn't know that you should, And other things you shouldn't know that you did...
I wanted to make sure...

All the things he didn't know that he should (it looks like there are a lot) and other things he shouldn't know that he did (are they fewer, less important).

What are all these things that he should have known and that Tifa knows?
One of them is certainly that the last time they saw each other was 7 years ago and not 5 as Cloud claims.
Then,...,... then I can't see anything else.
On the other hand, if Tifa has Cloud's memories it can be explained... She would then know everything that Cloud has hidden from her, the fact that he came to Nibelheim as an infantryman.

What are those few other things that he must not have known and that he knew?
Probably what Cloud tells about Zack's actions during the incident, actions that he claims were his own.
So, more than the things he should have known and more disturbing things for sure. Yet they are mentioned second and seem to be less in quantity.


Why are we witnessing this scene? Why does the contact between the ultimate weapon and Tifa lead the latter to show us what she has in her heart? Wouldn't someone a little earlier have offered to show it to us?

Sephiroth
Ha, ha, ha... Tifa...
Why are you so worried and scared by those words?
Hmm... Shall I show everyone here what's in your heart?

The contact with a weapon protecting the planet leads us to see what Sephiroth/Jenova proposed to show us... (see the title of this thread)
Tifa would potentially have been forced to show us what's in her heart.
Is someone holding her to account in a manner akin to a court of law?
If we imagine that she didn't convince, it might be interesting to note that the next time we see Tifa is to witness her execution (aborted by another weapon).


Are you convinced that what is shown in this sequence proves the integrity of Tifa's heart?

Do you have an idea of what I will develop in 3.B.?

I like the imagery of a deep fried fantatic.

Thank you ! I think I'm not very far from becoming appreciable in taste.

 

[Dionysos]

Thank you for your patience!

I haven't read your article on Phoenix yet, but it looks like it fell right on the heels of the FFXVI announcement, a real gift!

There’s certainly plenty of FFXVI speculation within, based on how the Phoenix has been used in other Final Fantasy titles and also what we know so far about the new project. They released quite a lot of lore already, which was a great surprise and a real delight to people like us.

In that case, maybe Jenova is manipulating Cloud (cells) to guide him to Tifa in sector 7 in order to trigger this confusion. But how would she have known that Tifa was in this sector... Maybe she has spies.
What significant benefit could Jenova derive from Tifa's disorientation?

Perhaps using Tifa to dislodge Cloud’s Zack/Soldier persona, yeah. The Zack persona might not be of any benefit to Jenova since when it is stabilised it gives Cloud courage and confidence. A confused Cloud would be weaker and more easily manipulated as a puppet.

In canon Tifa is more rightly seen as a therapist to Cloud and helps him to find and come to terms with his true self, but that help doesn’t fully materialise until the trip to the Lifestream. But with your theory Tifa might be doing Jenova’s work at first, setting off a number of triggers which disorientates Cloud. This might leave Cloud in a dangerous space between personalities, and this could leave him vulnerable to suggestion.

As for Jenova having spies, if anything Jenova might just be registering what the ‘clones’ are seeing (these being the survivors of the Nibelheim incident that were injected with Jenova cells by Hojo in order to test his Reunion theory, amongst other reasons, and became mindless zombies). In one of the more curious elaborations in the Remake it is revealed that one clone called Marco (clone number 49) is actually Tifa’s neighbour at the Stargazer Heights apartment block in Sector 7, and Tifa actually seems quite protective of him and looks after him at the behest of the landlady Marle. Nobody knows what is wrong with Marco at this stage, but Tifa says he is ‘not a bad guy’ and she prevents Cloud from attacking him when he mistakes him for Sephiroth via a hallucination. Incidentally, Marco is later used by Sephiroth to take his appearance at times, and I believe he is also the 'clone' which eventually transforms into Jenova Dreamweaver towards the end of the Remake.

The proximity of Marco to Tifa means that certain information could have fed back to Jenova about Tifa’s location. That presumes that Jenova is consciously and actively doing anything at this moment, beyond her cells just firing and being attracted to one another instinctively.

We should remain conscious, however, that the particulars surrounding Marco (clone 49) need not be imagined as canon to the OG. They are very much a part of the timeline changes in the Remake project, and Sephiroth’s new/altered plan, whatever that is. I’m not sure if we should imagine Marco being Tifa’s neighbour in the OG canon or not at this point (that’s not even considering that the Stargazer Heights apartment block does not exist in the OG), but certainly Marco heading into Shinra HQ and becoming Jenova Dreamweaver is all ‘new timeline’ stuff due to Sephiroth’s interference, or some other reason, for which we shall have to patiently await the next part in order to comprehend fully.

Perhaps if Tifa accepts that Cloud is a SOLDIER (a strong guy) she will enlist him in AVALANCHE which will have the effect of bringing Cloud closer to Jenova's prison in order to disorient him by reminding him of certain memories.
But if Jenova can manipulate Cloud with her cells, why would she need him to be disoriented?

Perhaps a stronger will could overcome the pull to become a puppet? Sephiroth, for example, seems to turn from puppet into puppetmaster, according to the standard interpretation of the game. Sephiroth ends up using the Jenova cells and Reunion theory for his own benefit and objectives. If Sephiroth had remained in his confused, volatile state that he was in during the earlier stages of the Nibelheim incident then perhaps Jenova could have been in full control of him and he’d have no will of his own.

I say ‘according to the standard interpretation of the game’ because some fans would rather imagine Sephiroth as working underneath Jenova anyway, and that his plans that we might think are his own are instead Jenova-influenced. The free will of Sephiroth could be debatable. Anything which concerns Jenova cells alongside identity, memory, goals, etc, can be justifiably questioned. To be wild about this, if any organism has Jenova cells within them, to what extent can we ever be confident that their thoughts in their brains are entirely their own in origin?

Maybe Jenova seeks to benefit a delay in reaction that would allow her to lead Cloud to Sephiroth without encountering too much resistance see with some support.
But wouldn't it be a bit risky as a maneuver ? There was little chance that Tifa wouldn't immediately tell Cloud that he had the wrong personality.

That was certainly a risk, and this risk did end up undoing Cloud’s fabricated persona in the Lifestream therapy session. But by then the Black Materia had already been handed over and Cloud’s usefulness to Sephiroth/Jenova had ended. Perhaps, following your theory, Tifa’s silence could be imagined as her own desire to shout out and tell Cloud that something isn’t right being suppressed or delayed.

Maybe, applying your theory, there is a chance that Jenova could have messed with Tifa’s mind too. That or, more simply but no less importantly, the trauma of the incident itself. She had, after all, witnessed her hometown being burned to the ground, her father slain, and most of the people she had ever known in her entire life dead or vanished.

Going back to Marco in the Remake, I wonder if Tifa recognises him as a fellow former inhabitant of Nibelheim. I’d have to examine the scenes with him again in order to determine that, but I don’t recall her making any connections off the top of my head.

Cloud's extraordinary strength during this incident may be explained by the reasons you give, but in any case I think it's safe to say that the extraordinary (permanent) strength and abilities he has at the start of the original game can be explained as having become a monster. That is to say, he obtained a great strength because he came into contact with Jenova cells but without special training.

Yeah. It is entirely possible that Jenova’s cells have influenced Cloud’s abilities and strength. The mako-infusion plays a greater role in this, but the alien cells introduce properties of their own that could help characterise the reception of the mako by the body, perhaps. The results are fairly unpredictable.

I wonder how many of the ‘clones’ also have super-strength as a result of Hojo’s interference, but do not actually use it for combat purposes because their minds are too far gone.

I don't think the Cetras that were massively infected with the virus and turned into monsters 2000 years ago were it in controlled surgical procedures, rather it must have been dirty in my opinion.

True. This is a good point. The Cetra did not become monsters due to scientific meddling. There must therefore be another route to transformation at play here, and blood transfusion or the mixing of other fluids would be a fairly logical one (comparisons in myth, folklore and horror fiction present themselves here).

This is what allows me to speculate that Cloud may have been infected (transformed into a monster) by Sephiroth's tainted blade without Hojo's stated surgery being required.
As for the incubation speed I don't think we have enough information to say that it should be slow or fast, so I suggest that it can be almost instantaneous

It is interesting to consider, hypothetically, that maybe Cloud received a double dose of Jenova cells. If we do combine the known injection from Hojo with the possible introduction of cells via Jenova’s blood on Sephiroth’s blade, then that could even be the thing which separates Cloud from the other ‘clones’ and enables him to retain some semblance of self (if fabricated) whilst also being the ultimate puppet.

Most ‘clones’ remained completely insensible (and some explicitly call out for the Reunion as it is constantly on their minds) but Cloud, with the help of the ‘Zack persona’ mantle manages to pass as a functioning human, with the pull towards Jenova being subconscious.

Maybe the ‘double dose’ of Jenova could be what enables Cloud to become the success story of the Reunion theory (and completely not Hojo’s doing, since he only provided the second dose) and could be more in-line with Jenova’s modus operandi of fabricating falsehoods in order to trick people into believing somebody (or something), was somebody else. This part relies on Jenova cells actually entering into Cloud from Sephiroth’s blade, and I’m not sure if we’ll ever get confirmation on that as it might be an overlooked detail. We’d have to do some digging someday.

Nevertheless, that Cloud became the ultimate puppet for a while is undisputable. In fact, the only line ever attributed to Jenova directly is a line calling Cloud a puppet.

The fact that Tifa's body does not bear any marks of injury (even in the remake) goes totally against my theory because in my opinion if Tifa is dead it is really her original body that we meet in the game and which is controlled by Jenova. But it also goes totally against the canon that would have it be true Tifa.

I really cannot wait to see where they take it in the Remake to see if they address Tifa’s wounds and healing and how Zangan saved her (or if, as you suggest).

In the Remake Cloud keeps experiencing flashbacks to Tifa crouched over her father’s dead body, but I don’t think we’ve yet seen her actually reach Sephiroth yet. The Tifa aspect of the Nibelheim flashback is, however, pretty critical to Cloud in the Remake. And interestingly we get early acknowledgement of their shared trauma too (especially during a very tender optional but highly significant scene which I adore) .

Spoiler: FFVII Remake scene

In fact, that scene is one of the key reasons why I do not believe in the idea of a malicious Tifa, since her emotions do appear to be pure. If Tifa died as you speculate then any alleged ‘pseudo-Tifa’ that we see at least believes that she is the real Tifa and has her real memories. Like the Rachel complex in Blade Runner, perhaps.

Edit:
I watched The Last Order : Final Fantasy VII again and in the scene which corresponds to that of the original game, as Sephiroth hits Tifa, the screen goes black and a line of light emerges to represent the hit. Then we directly see Tifa's belly in close-up and it shows no signs of injury. Then she falls down the stairs.
We can notice that the wounds Sephiroth and Cloud receive are marked by the presence of blood.
If we analyze the structure of the animation we realize that it is her head that goes back first, it would certainly be the abdomen if she had been hit there.
So it could be that Sephiroth just hit Tifa in the face without slicing her with his sword. The blow was violent for sure, you only have to see the expression on Tifa's face to realize it. Maybe this SOLDIER 1st class' blow caused irreparable internal damages....

That would make sense and fit the wound / lack of wound situation. I’m not so sure what we are seeing in that though. The flash is so quick that I think it is left to interpretation what is being hit.

Additionally, The Last Order’s canonicity within the Compilation is currently debated now, as they’ve already retconned some aspects in Crisis Core and other sources (and Last Order itself retconned the OG by having Zack sniped from a helicopter by the Turks when he’s in the truck instead of gunned down by a squad of Shinra infantrymen on the cliffs overlooking Midgar). I think our best bet for the ‘true’ consolidated Compilation account of Tifa’s wounds would be to anticipate the Remake’s version or Ever Crisis (which might be seeking to show various scenes across the entire Compilation in a way which fits the Remake canon). What this scene in The Last Order does is give us a glimpse into where they might go with it. I think a smack around the face might be more realistic than a full slash if we are going to avoid any gruesome displays of violence. It always seemed like a slash to me though, and I know many other fans have assumed the same. Hopefully we’ll see that either way in the Remake flashback sequences in the future.

Perhaps one of the difficulties to understand/accept this theory is the idea that Jenova would need to inject her cells into the body of the person whose memories she wants to extract when she wouldn't need to inject her cells in the body (dead) of the one in which she wishes to implant these stolen memories (see diagram above).


Sephiroth:
So Jenova can possibly merge with memories and thus achieve an existence in the form of spiritual energy (admitting that there is some truth in what Sephiroth says).

According to my theory Tifa would not have Jenova cells because Jenova has merged with the memories she stole from Cloud and therefore in the form of spiritual energy she is then able to join Tifa's dead body whose spiritual energy is already gone (or on the go).

Thinking canonically, Sephiroth here seems to be exploiting Cloud in the cruellest sense possible. Cloud was already struggling with his identity, so after showing him Zack and telling him that he wasn’t real at all and was just constructed out of somebody else’s memories is a sure way to tip him over the edge. At this stage Cloud hasn’t yet confronted his Zack persona and now begins to believe Sephiroth’s claims that Cloud never existed at all but had only been based on a childhood friend of Tifa extracted from her memories.

I believe what he is trying to make Cloud think is that his physical state is comprised of Jenova, and his memories have been created from the memories of Tifa.

But if we do take this more literally, if memories become a part of the Lifestream (enabling the planet to adapt and evolve, like the Gaia theory in Spirits Within and the world-crystals in FFIX) and if Tifa did die as you now suggest, Jenova could have also accessed Tifa’s memories via Sephiroth. I think most of the individual character and memories of a soul would dissipate fairly rapidly and be carried off by the flow of the Lifestream itself, becoming one with the Planet. The spiritual essence of a recently deceased being does not appear to hold on to its sense of self for long at all, with Sephiroth and Aerith being rare examples of those who managed to hold on. But perhaps because Tifa ‘died’ (in this theory) shortly before Sephiroth himself plunged into the Lifestream, he might have been able to get something from it if he acted fast. Or, since Sephiroth was carrying Jenova’s head, Jenova herself accessed Tifa’s memories then and there.

But we need not take Sephiroth at his word here. Cloud did exist, as we later find out, but had merely appropriated the heroic exploits and rank of Zack as his own and merged them with his own self.

If the Tifa we see in the game isn’t really Tifa, and is instead extracted by Jenova from either Tifa’s memories in the Lifestream, or from Cloud via his contact with Jenova cells, then that is certainly an interesting direction to take. It isn’t completely far removed from the crazy mythos of FFVII. I certainly wouldn’t expect it to be an intended conclusion in the official OG canon (but makes for a great headcanon), but it’ll be interesting to see where they go in the Remake as right now that is open game to any potential twists.

Tifa(Jenova) would therefore not be influenced by the pull of the reunion. If ever there really exists a reunion pull! (an idea that I will have to come back to)

I’m interested in hearing this alternative.

I really like Final Fantasy Peasant's theories, I also discovered those of Sleepezi recently which are really interesting too.

Sleepezi is great. I haven’t made it through all of his theory videos yet as they are very long, but I definitely intend to when I have enough time ahead of me to watch them properly.

For the moment no one seem to come to my conclusions even if a few ideas intersect. Maybe mainly the idea that the planet (the Lifestream) seems to be more active than what was generally accepted.

No matter where anyone stands on the Lifestream, it is said to be within all life, and all life returns to it. With that, depending on how you look at things, it is in a sense behind all activity. But whether that should be seen as a conscious thing or not is different. Just a technicality. Am I me because of the way that I think? Or am I me because the neurons in my brain fire in a particular way? Etc.

3 - Could events that relate to Tifa show that she bears some memories that belong to Cloud ?


3.A - Tifa questions Cloud's version - (script transcribed by yinza.com)
The contact with the Ultimate Weapon (which has the effect of placing Tifa in a particular state of consciousness) leads her to justify herself for something.

It really is interesting that this happened after Tifa was knocked unconscious by Ultimate Weapon’s attack on the Highwind. I’d forgotten that this took place. That this is the same Weapon which ended up attacking Mideel (where Tifa and Cloud fall into the Lifestream and have their therapy session) could have additional significance.

Although Ultimate Weapon’s attack on the Highwind also follows the pivotal scene discussed above where Sephiroth claims that Cloud was constructed in Hojo’s lab and Tifa begins to publicly think about Cloud’s identity. Perhaps her lapse of consciousness because of Ultimate Weapon’s attack was the first chance she had to process the consequences of the conversation with Sephiroth.

Tifa
Who is she trying to convince, is it herself, Cloud, or the Lifestream?

My interpretation is herself. But I think it is open to interpretation. She could be trying to explain herself to anybody listening (the Planet itself, etc). She is addressing Cloud, but he isn’t with her. This is Tifa trying to work through her own version of events in her mind whilst injured on a bed in Junon.

I mostly see it as Tifa justifying to herself why she hadn’t stepped in to question Cloud earlier about his narrative. She sensed something was wrong but didn’t act on it and was indecisive. In the earlier scene with Sephiroth taunting Cloud she knows that Cloud looking at the photograph could mess him up. She knows who should be in the photograph instead of him.

All the things he didn't know that he should (it looks like there are a lot) and other things he shouldn't know that he did (are they fewer, less important).

What are all these things that he should have known and that Tifa knows?

Possible moments from their childhood. Before his identity was patched up, it is quite possible that certain aspects of his early and formative years were repressed. Because if he’d remembered then it could have triggered earlier that he wasn’t who he thought he was. The memories he can remember that are his own are to do with his dreams and ambitions to join Soldier (hence the scene with Tifa at the well), and having these memories do not undo the Soldier persona and might, with the absence of his other memories, have helped solidify it in his mind.

What are those few other things that he must not have known and that he knew?
Probably what Cloud tells about Zack's actions during the incident, actions that he claims were his own.
So, more than the things he should have known and more disturbing things for sure. Yet they are mentioned second and seem to be less in quantity.

Yeah. These things likely refer to things that Zack alone would have been familiar with, I think. Things like what happened in the Shinra Mansion. But also at this point I don’t think Tifa has actually registered that Cloud was there at all, hence her correcting Cloud about the last time they had seen each other. Tifa had no idea that the infantryman was Cloud in the OG, and they didn’t have a conversation with Cloud’s helmet removed like they did in The Last Order (although Tifa’s eyes are still open and blinking in the OG as Cloud moves her to safety, so she could have seen him but been too delirious to register it). So these things that Cloud shouldn’t have known could refer to anything that happened during the Nibelheim Incident according to Tifa at the time that she says those words.

You are right that the things that he shouldn’t have known but did are mentioned second, and that is interesting. To the player they seem more important because they relate to the Cloud-Zack mix-up, but to Tifa they are a secondary thought. She might well be more interested in the things that Cloud cannot remember. This makes sense as they would be the things which matter to Tifa more on a personal level.

Why are we witnessing this scene? Why does the contact between the ultimate weapon and Tifa lead the latter to show us what she has in her heart? Wouldn't someone a little earlier have offered to show it to us?

The timing is certainly interesting. See above.

The contact with a weapon protecting the planet leads us to see what Sephiroth/Jenova proposed to show us... (see the title of this thread)
Tifa would potentially have been forced to show us what's in her heart.
Is someone holding her to account in a manner akin to a court of law?
If we imagine that she didn't convince, it might be interesting to note that the next time we see Tifa is to witness her execution (aborted by another weapon).

Okay I think I see it now. Just like Sephiroth wanted in the scene prior to this, Tifa’s encounter with Ultimate Weapon led her to reveal her heart, which previously she’d kept hidden and suffered in silence.

Like an Egyptian heart being weighed on the scales against a feather in view of the gods and the hungry crocodile-hippo-lion hybrid monster Ammit… That’s if Tifa’s words during her unconscious state in Junon are to the Lifestream/Planet and not just her own mind trying to make sense of what is happening. We should consider that the events at Junon take place a week after the North Crater incident, so Tifa may have been unconscious for quite a while… If you are correct, she was being judged twice at the same time (by Shinra, who order her execution) and by the Planet (I think that is what you are implying) or by Sephiroth (if that is also what you are implying, but I’m not yet comfortable in combining the two – unless Sephiroth/Jenova represents the monster awaiting a negative judgement so that they can enjoy devouring Tifa’s heart and soul and dooming her forever).

I never thought about the Sapphire Weapon potentially saving Tifa, or caring about any particular being. I think most people interpret it as an extreme case of chance that the Weapon happened to blow a hole in the execution chamber and enabled Tifa to escape. A consequence of the narrative requiring Tifa to escape more than anything. But if that had been calculated, that is an interesting theory. Having just examined that scene again, it could certainly be argued that the Sapphire Weapon targeted the area where Tifa was being held specifically. It didn’t fire its energy beam in wide swipe, but a direct hit at a very particular target.

Why would Sapphire Weapon want Tifa to escape? In order to reunite with Cloud and end his delusion?

Are you convinced that what is shown in this sequence proves the integrity of Tifa's heart?

I do believe that Tifa is being more genuine in all of this by this stage. She’s finally unburdening herself, whether prompted / forced or not. She acts as Cloud’s therapist, but also confronts her own issues and her own traumatic memories.

Do you have an idea of what I will develop in 3.B.?

I think I can work through most of your ideas and contextualise a place for them in my view of the canon (whilst still allowing you to develop your own headcanon).

There are a few points in which I’d like further elaboration on, however. If the Tifa we know in the game is a construction of Jenova based on the memories of the real Tifa extracted from Cloud (or elsewhere), why would Jenova do that? Are you arguing that Jenova has insidiously planted Tifa as an unwitting double agent in the party? That Tifa genuinely does not know that she isn’t Tifa (hence her emotions remaining pure and passing the Turing Test, if you like), but is nevertheless an agent of Jenova?

Is that where you are going? Or was it somewhere else?

I personally don’t think the Tifa in the game (OG, or Remake at this stage) is anyone other than Tifa, but if the Remake takes this direction, or even introduces the idea as a mind-messing red herring, then that’ll be the sort of deeply interesting yet deeply controversial twist that we should now come to expect from that project.

Thank you ! I think I'm not very far from becoming appreciable in taste.

Yum yum!

 

[Molosev]

Ahah time flies! I hardly recognised you

Perhaps using Tifa to dislodge Cloud’s Zack/Soldier persona, yeah. The Zack persona might not be of any benefit to Jenova since when it is stabilised it gives Cloud courage and confidence. A confused Cloud would be weaker and more easily manipulated as a puppet.

In canon Tifa is more rightly seen as a therapist to Cloud and helps him to find and come to terms with his true self, but that help doesn’t fully materialise until the trip to the Lifestream. But with your theory Tifa might be doing Jenova’s work at first, setting off a number of triggers which disorientates Cloud. This might leave Cloud in a dangerous space between personalities, and this could leave him vulnerable to suggestion.

As for Jenova having spies, if anything Jenova might just be registering what the ‘clones’ are seeing (these being the survivors of the Nibelheim incident that were injected with Jenova cells by Hojo in order to test his Reunion theory, amongst other reasons, and became mindless zombies). In one of the more curious elaborations in the Remake it is revealed that one clone called Marco (clone number 49) is actually Tifa’s neighbour at the Stargazer Heights apartment block in Sector 7, and Tifa actually seems quite protective of him and looks after him at the behest of the landlady Marle. Nobody knows what is wrong with Marco at this stage, but Tifa says he is ‘not a bad guy’ and she prevents Cloud from attacking him when he mistakes him for Sephiroth via a hallucination. Incidentally, Marco is later used by Sephiroth to take his appearance at times, and I believe he is also the 'clone' which eventually transforms into Jenova Dreamweaver towards the end of the Remake.

The proximity of Marco to Tifa means that certain information could have fed back to Jenova about Tifa’s location. That presumes that Jenova is consciously and actively doing anything at this moment, beyond her cells just firing and being attracted to one another instinctively.

We should remain conscious, however, that the particulars surrounding Marco (clone 49) need not be imagined as canon to the OG. They are very much a part of the timeline changes in the Remake project, and Sephiroth’s new/altered plan, whatever that is. I’m not sure if we should imagine Marco being Tifa’s neighbour in the OG canon or not at this point (that’s not even considering that the Stargazer Heights apartment block does not exist in the OG), but certainly Marco heading into Shinra HQ and becoming Jenova Dreamweaver is all ‘new timeline’ stuff due to Sephiroth’s interference, or some other reason, for which we shall have to patiently await the next part in order to comprehend fully.

This axis is very interesting and more consensual than the idea that Tifa is 100% a Jenova puppet. But it also requires some fuzzier convolutions to seem effective I think. It Tifa is 100% Jenova then every action she takes can be considered a manipulation of Cloud. In the other case, Jenova would have to manipulate an independant Tifa in order to manipulate Cloud, which seems to me to be more hazardous. Therefore it may be more difficult to convince a public of the strength of my global theory (which I briefly summarise at the end of this post).

Perhaps a stronger will could overcome the pull to become a puppet? Sephiroth, for example, seems to turn from puppet into puppetmaster, according to the standard interpretation of the game. Sephiroth ends up using the Jenova cells and Reunion theory for his own benefit and objectives. If Sephiroth had remained in his confused, volatile state that he was in during the earlier stages of the Nibelheim incident then perhaps Jenova could have been in full control of him and he’d have no will of his own.

I say ‘according to the standard interpretation of the game’ because some fans would rather imagine Sephiroth as working underneath Jenova anyway, and that his plans that we might think are his own are instead Jenova-influenced. The free will of Sephiroth could be debatable. Anything which concerns Jenova cells alongside identity, memory, goals, etc, can be justifiably questioned. To be wild about this, if any organism has Jenova cells within them, to what extent can we ever be confident that their thoughts in their brains are entirely their own in origin?

I'm of the opinion that if there is anything left of Sephiroth (other than a memory) at the time of the game then that something is being manipulated.
If Sephiroth was in charge, how could he have shown so little manners in sending his dear mother to risk her life before his own in the final battle?
The name that the last entity bears in this fight, Safer-Sephiroth, instils the idea that it is a construction, a more solid rampart. It's not the kind of name a new god would give himself I think. But nothing says that it is the name he gave himself. Can we imagine a Sephiroth at this stage of the adventure who would be so unsure of himself that he would have planned a backup incarnation just in case? It doesn't fit with the arrogant character that was shown to us.

Going back to Marco in the Remake, I wonder if Tifa recognises him as a fellow former inhabitant of Nibelheim. I’d have to examine the scenes with him again in order to determine that, but I don’t recall her making any connections off the top of my head.

I haven't noticed any clues linking Marco and Nibelheim (Remake) except for the proximity to Tifa and what we can assume about the place of origin of these clones (OG).

Yeah. It is entirely possible that Jenova’s cells have influenced Cloud’s abilities and strength. The mako-infusion plays a greater role in this, but the alien cells introduce properties of their own that could help characterise the reception of the mako by the body, perhaps. The results are fairly unpredictable.

I wonder how many of the ‘clones’ also have super-strength as a result of Hojo’s interference, but do not actually use it for combat purposes because their minds are too far gone.

You're right, we shouldn't forget the Mako's action. We don't know if the clones have been through the same bath as Cloud and Zack. So maybe they're not super strong but Cloud is because he's been in there a long time (SOLDIER treatment).

True. This is a good point. The Cetra did not become monsters due to scientific meddling. There must therefore be another route to transformation at play here, and blood transfusion or the mixing of other fluids would be a fairly logical one (comparisons in myth, folklore and horror fiction present themselves here).

It is interesting to consider, hypothetically, that maybe Cloud received a double dose of Jenova cells. If we do combine the known injection from Hojo with the possible introduction of cells via Jenova’s blood on Sephiroth’s blade, then that could even be the thing which separates Cloud from the other ‘clones’ and enables him to retain some semblance of self (if fabricated) whilst also being the ultimate puppet.

Most ‘clones’ remained completely insensible (and some explicitly call out for the Reunion as it is constantly on their minds) but Cloud, with the help of the ‘Zack persona’ mantle manages to pass as a functioning human, with the pull towards Jenova being subconscious.

Maybe the ‘double dose’ of Jenova could be what enables Cloud to become the success story of the Reunion theory (and completely not Hojo’s doing, since he only provided the second dose) and could be more in-line with Jenova’s modus operandi of fabricating falsehoods in order to trick people into believing somebody (or something), was somebody else. This part relies on Jenova cells actually entering into Cloud from Sephiroth’s blade, and I’m not sure if we’ll ever get confirmation on that as it might be an overlooked detail. We’d have to do some digging someday.

Nevertheless, that Cloud became the ultimate puppet for a while is undisputable. In fact, the only line ever attributed to Jenova directly is a line calling Cloud a puppet.

Concerning the reunion theory proposed by Hojo.

I find it rather strange that the nature of this theory is so at odds with what Hojo was able to learn from the content of the Ifalna videos (which he kept secret), i.e. the mention of Jenova's ability to spread dangerously through the Cetra population 2000 years ago.
I could not observe any spectacularly exponential dispersal of Jenova in the population at the time of the game. We would only have these few non-contagious 'clones' as infectious agents. One could say that if there was a dispersal theory then it was not proven in its experimental phase, which would not bode well for the success of an experiment to observe a hypothetical reunion of this original non-dispersion.

It is interesting to note that the most successful/interesting clone (Cloud) is the one who got his dose of fresh cells from Sephiroth's blade in this incident.
So, is the Nibelheim incident an integral part of Hojo's experiment?
If so, then perhaps the application of cells that he says he performed on Cloud refers to that sword strike, which he would have instigated to some extent.
Perhaps the experiment worked because maximum autonomy in implementation would have been granted to Jenova during this event.
Perhaps Cloud never got another injection. We never saw Hojo injecting cells directly into Cloud in any title of the the compilation., and I don't think Hojo directly said anything about Cloud being injected (i might be wrong). Hojo: "...He's a Sephiroth-clone I created after the real Sephiroth died five years ago. Jenova cells and Mako, with my knowledge and skills, have been combined with science and nature to bring him to life."

Zangan
"As I was coming out of the reactor, Shinra troops were just arriving. I recall a scientist named Hojo was in charge. He ordered the troops to gather up everyone still alive for the experiment."

According to Zangan Hojo spoke of "the" experiment not "an" experiment. Also the quickness of the Shinra troop's intervention makes me think that the whole thing may have been premeditated.
Personally, I think Hojo anticipated that it would go wrong (is he the one who opens the door to Sephiroth?) and that this mess was to allow him to observe if Jenova would take advantage of it. The anomaly on the reactor valve would only have been a way to get the protagonists to come to the place of the experiment.

Only Cloud and Zack were immersed in Mako in the Shinra Mansion lab following this event (from what we see). Does this highlight Hojo's particular interest in them? Does this observation lead us to believe that the other test subjects (Nibelheimers) are second best?
Were they even real test subjects? After all we have no evidence that the 'clones' were injected with cells or bathed in Mako.
To try to support the latter hypothesis (Nibelheim clones are fake test subjects): the Shinra has put in a lot of effort to cover up the disaster that happened in Nibelheim. They rebuilt the city identically and then invited "actors" to come and take the place of the former inhabitants.
The city is not supposed to show any negative signs of the Shinra presence yet the company lets some very strange/scary characters roam the streets of the city, I find these attitudes contradictory.

Why wouldn't the 'clones' also be actors?
The play/masquerade theme is quite strong in this game with instances like the 'Loveless' play, the Honeybee Inn scene, the Gold Saucer play in which Cloud and Aerith are the main actors,

Spoiler: Remake spoiler

Jessie's profession in the Remake

and of course the Nibelheim incident coverage. We can also recall that Cloud has been called a puppet on several occasions what links him to the world of theatre.
These potential actors could artificially help to lead Cloud (the player) to believe that a reunion force is actually at work. They would be one of many suggestive forces placed along the way that would be intended to accompany the hero in fulfilling his destiny.

While Cloud's character incorporates Jenova's cells, whose effect allows him to be manipulated, the player who identifies with the hero is not contaminated! Yet Jenova says :

"Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad.
There's no need to act as though you're angry either.
Because, Cloud. You are...
...you are...... a puppet."

This is technically as much for the player as for Cloud. So what are the means used to manipulate the player and make him fulfil his destiny?
We can really talk about destiny in the case of the player because whatever choices he makes in the game he will always arrive at the same conclusion.

I think this clip from Dissidia Final Fantasy might be a nice reference to the 4th wall.

I really cannot wait to see where they take it in the Remake to see if they address Tifa’s wounds and healing and how Zangan saved her (or if, as you suggest).

In the Remake Cloud keeps experiencing flashbacks to Tifa crouched over her father’s dead body, but I don’t think we’ve yet seen her actually reach Sephiroth yet. The Tifa aspect of the Nibelheim flashback is, however, pretty critical to Cloud in the Remake. And interestingly we get early acknowledgement of their shared trauma too (especially during a very tender optional but highly significant scene which I adore) . In fact, that scene is one of the key reasons why I do not believe in the idea of a malicious Tifa, since her emotions do appear to be pure. If Tifa died as you speculate then any alleged ‘pseudo-Tifa’ that we see at least believes that she is the real Tifa and has her real memories. Like the Rachel complex in Blade Runner, perhaps.

What I can say is that the Cetras who infected others 2,000 years ago must have been pretty convincing to approach them when they thought they were dead.

Spoiler: Remake spoiler

We can't really tell if the scene you mention is reality or a reverie, as one of the alternate scenes features a dialogue with Aerith who obviously can't be physically present in that garden. But I have to say that Tifa seems to be totally blameless in terms of her attitude in the Remake. She does however confide that she feels trapped without elaborating further

.
At this point I can't tell if Tifa is 100% a puppet of Jenova or if she is unknowingly corrupted. The first hypothesis makes more sense from the point of view of my theory though (seeking efficiency). In any case I think Jenova has merged with Cloud's memories and entered Tifa's mind, I don't know if TIfa retained her original memories in whole, part or not at all.

I've been trying not to rely too much on what I can apprehend of the characters feelings in my analysis since I noticed that one of the first ideas instilled in us during the game's opening cinematic is that this world is potentially loveless.

That would make sense and fit the wound / lack of wound situation. I’m not so sure what we are seeing in that though. The flash is so quick that I think it is left to interpretation what is being hit.

Additionally, The Last Order’s canonicity within the Compilation is currently debated now, as they’ve already retconned some aspects in Crisis Core and other sources (and Last Order itself retconned the OG by having Zack sniped from a helicopter by the Turks when he’s in the truck instead of gunned down by a squad of Shinra infantrymen on the cliffs overlooking Midgar). I think our best bet for the ‘true’ consolidated Compilation account of Tifa’s wounds would be to anticipate the Remake’s version or Ever Crisis (which might be seeking to show various scenes across the entire Compilation in a way which fits the Remake canon). What this scene in The Last Order does is give us a glimpse into where they might go with it. I think a smack around the face might be more realistic than a full slash if we are going to avoid any gruesome displays of violence. It always seemed like a slash to me though, and I know many other fans have assumed the same. Hopefully we’ll see that either way in the Remake flashback sequences in the future.

I agree that in the original game it seems obvious that Sephiroth deals a blow with the blade of his sword.

Thinking canonically, Sephiroth here seems to be exploiting Cloud in the cruellest sense possible. Cloud was already struggling with his identity, so after showing him Zack and telling him that he wasn’t real at all and was just constructed out of somebody else’s memories is a sure way to tip him over the edge. At this stage Cloud hasn’t yet confronted his Zack persona and now begins to believe Sephiroth’s claims that Cloud never existed at all but had only been based on a childhood friend of Tifa extracted from her memories.

I believe what he is trying to make Cloud think is that his physical state is comprised of Jenova, and his memories have been created from the memories of Tifa.

But if we do take this more literally, if memories become a part of the Lifestream (enabling the planet to adapt and evolve, like the Gaia theory in Spirits Within and the world-crystals in FFIX) and if Tifa did die as you now suggest, Jenova could have also accessed Tifa’s memories via Sephiroth. I think most of the individual character and memories of a soul would dissipate fairly rapidly and be carried off by the flow of the Lifestream itself, becoming one with the Planet. The spiritual essence of a recently deceased being does not appear to hold on to its sense of self for long at all, with Sephiroth and Aerith being rare examples of those who managed to hold on. But perhaps because Tifa ‘died’ (in this theory) shortly before Sephiroth himself plunged into the Lifestream, he might have been able to get something from it if he acted fast. Or, since Sephiroth was carrying Jenova’s head, Jenova herself accessed Tifa’s memories then and there.

But we need not take Sephiroth at his word here. Cloud did exist, as we later find out, but had merely appropriated the heroic exploits and rank of Zack as his own and merged them with his own self.

If the Tifa we see in the game isn’t really Tifa, and is instead extracted by Jenova from either Tifa’s memories in the Lifestream, or from Cloud via his contact with Jenova cells, then that is certainly an interesting direction to take. It isn’t completely far removed from the crazy mythos of FFVII. I certainly wouldn’t expect it to be an intended conclusion in the official OG canon (but makes for a great headcanon), but it’ll be interesting to see where they go in the Remake as right now that is open game to any potential twists.

Indeed, this revelation is a powerful lever that will make Cloud lose his mind and will push him to give the black materia to Sephiroth (maybe the real one this time).

After watching a let's play of Crisis Core I got the feeling that Zack had been trained in such a way as to create a set of skills/knowledge that then needed to be transferred to Cloud to allow him to start his mysterious mission in the best possible conditions (arriving by train for the reactor mission, falling on the flower bed in the church, etc...).
At the end of the game Zack reminds me of a hunted animal that his hunters (Turks and all) are driving back to Midgar. The player would once again fulfill his destiny, that of bringing a Cloud having integrated Zack's personality (experience) to Midgar, where he would be taken care of by AVALANCHE.

Am I me because of the way that I think? Or am I me because the neurons in my brain fire in a particular way? Etc.

That's an interesting question !
To go further, is it the way my body reacts to stimuli sent by my environment that causes my neurons to fire in a particular direction?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It really is interesting that this happened after Tifa was knocked unconscious by Ultimate Weapon’s attack on the Highwind. I’d forgotten that this took place. That this is the same Weapon which ended up attacking Mideel (where Tifa and Cloud fall into the Lifestream and have their therapy session) could have additional significance.

Ho I didn't notice it was the same Weapon ! I'll find some additional significance to it for sure Thanks !

Although Ultimate Weapon’s attack on the Highwind also follows the pivotal scene discussed above where Sephiroth claims that Cloud was constructed in Hojo’s lab and Tifa begins to publicly think about Cloud’s identity. Perhaps her lapse of consciousness because of Ultimate Weapon’s attack was the first chance she had to process the consequences of the conversation with Sephiroth.

That's a possibility.

My interpretation is herself. But I think it is open to interpretation. She could be trying to explain herself to anybody listening (the Planet itself, etc). She is addressing Cloud, but he isn’t with her. This is Tifa trying to work through her own version of events in her mind whilst injured on a bed in Junon.

I mostly see it as Tifa justifying to herself why she hadn’t stepped in to question Cloud earlier about his narrative. She sensed something was wrong but didn’t act on it and was indecisive. In the earlier scene with Sephiroth taunting Cloud she knows that Cloud looking at the photograph could mess him up. She knows who should be in the photograph instead of him.

This interpretation makes sense.

Possible moments from their childhood. Before his identity was patched up, it is quite possible that certain aspects of his early and formative years were repressed. Because if he’d remembered then it could have triggered earlier that he wasn’t who he thought he was. The memories he can remember that are his own are to do with his dreams and ambitions to join Soldier (hence the scene with Tifa at the well), and having these memories do not undo the Soldier persona and might, with the absence of his other memories, have helped solidify it in his mind.

Tifa says that the memories she is questioning relate to the period after Cloud's departure from Nibelheilm seven years earlier, which seems to rule out earlier memories.
Tifa

Actually, it's been seven years.
You got your wish and joined SOLDIER, quit after the Sephiroth incident, and now you're a mercenary...
You told me a lot about what happened after you left Nibelheim...

But perhaps the evocation of post-departure memories allowed Tifa to remind Cloud of earlier memories but he did not respond coherently.

Yeah. These things likely refer to things that Zack alone would have been familiar with, I think. Things like what happened in the Shinra Mansion. But also at this point I don’t think Tifa has actually registered that Cloud was there at all, hence her correcting Cloud about the last time they had seen each other. Tifa had no idea that the infantryman was Cloud in the OG, and they didn’t have a conversation with Cloud’s helmet removed like they did in The Last Order (although Tifa’s eyes are still open and blinking in the OG as Cloud moves her to safety, so she could have seen him but been too delirious to register it). So these things that Cloud shouldn’t have known could refer to anything that happened during the Nibelheim Incident according to Tifa at the time that she says those words.

You are right that the things that he shouldn’t have known but did are mentioned second, and that is interesting. To the player they seem more important because they relate to the Cloud-Zack mix-up, but to Tifa they are a secondary thought. She might well be more interested in the things that Cloud cannot remember. This makes sense as they would be the things which matter to Tifa more on a personal level.

Yes, this interpretation is well defended.

Okay I think I see it now. Just like Sephiroth wanted in the scene prior to this, Tifa’s encounter with Ultimate Weapon led her to reveal her heart, which previously she’d kept hidden and suffered in silence.

Like an Egyptian heart being weighed on the scales against a feather in view of the gods and the hungry crocodile-hippo-lion hybrid monster Ammit… That’s if Tifa’s words during her unconscious state in Junon are to the Lifestream/Planet and not just her own mind trying to make sense of what is happening. We should consider that the events at Junon take place a week after the North Crater incident, so Tifa may have been unconscious for quite a while… If you are correct, she was being judged twice at the same time (by Shinra, who order her execution) and by the Planet (I think that is what you are implying) or by Sephiroth (if that is also what you are implying, but I’m not yet comfortable in combining the two – unless Sephiroth/Jenova represents the monster awaiting a negative judgement so that they can enjoy devouring Tifa’s heart and soul and dooming her forever).

I never thought about the Sapphire Weapon potentially saving Tifa, or caring about any particular being. I think most people interpret it as an extreme case of chance that the Weapon happened to blow a hole in the execution chamber and enabled Tifa to escape. A consequence of the narrative requiring Tifa to escape more than anything. But if that had been calculated, that is an interesting theory. Having just examined that scene again, it could certainly be argued that the Sapphire Weapon targeted the area where Tifa was being held specifically. It didn’t fire its energy beam in wide swipe, but a direct hit at a very particular target.

Why would Sapphire Weapon want Tifa to escape? In order to reunite with Cloud and end his delusion?

You are still not convinced by my idea that Jenova(Sephiroth) may be a tool for the Planet and I understand that perfectly.
Maybe this passage from the dialogue between Sephiroth and Cloud at the Temple of the Ancients will help a little.

Sephiroth
So cold.
I am always by your side.
Come.

He flies up to the ceiling and disappears. He reappears in front of one of the murals.

Splendid.
A treasure house of knowledge...

Cloud
I don't understand what you're saying!

Sephiroth laughs and flies off again. Cloud finds him again before the mural depicting Meteor.

Sephiroth
Look well.

Cloud
At what!?

Sephiroth
At that which adds to the knowledge of...
I am becoming one with the Planet.

He laughs, flies off, and Cloud finds him slumped the altar.

Sephiroth
...Mother... ...It's almost time.
Soon... we will become one.

He gets to his feet as Cloud and the others reach him. Aeris steps forward with fists raised.

Aeris
How do you intend to become one with the Planet?

Sephiroth (swinging the Masamune)
It's simple.
Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to heal the injury.
The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the injury.

He stabs the Masamune into the floor.

...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the very life of the Planet?
Think how much energy would be gathered!

He pulls the Masamune from the ground.

Ha ha ha. And at the center of that injury, will be me.
All that boundless energy will be mine.
By merging with all the energy of the Planet, I will become a new life form, a new existence.
Melding with the Planet... I will cease to exist as I am now...
Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every soul.

He tells his mother (perhaps in thought) that they will soon become one during a tirade in which he explains that his goal is to become one with the planet.
I find that one can eventually understand that his mother is the planet.

Regarding the "judgment" of Tifa. I really like the reference to the Egyptian myth but I don't think that some entity wants to devour Tifa if she turns out to be impure.

I think the Planet is showing us with its means that what Tifa has in her heart is not convincing,. That Tifa is not entirely Tifa.
(Ideally this sequence should show that Tifa bears memories that belong to Cloud, basically that she knows things she shouldn't)
I think the Planet knows this because it is behind the transformation.
It uses its various entities (Jenova(Sephiroth), Tifa, Weapons, Lifestream, Shinra) to present us with this fact. Not to convince us but to play with the player's perspicacity, much like Sephiroth(Jenova) did during the Whirlwind Maze illusion.

But at the end of the sequence the Planet saves Tifa because it needs her to stay close to Cloud to accompany him to the completion of his mission. In my opinion, Cloud is an essential cog in the departure process of the next interstellar migration of the Cetras. He is the finger that the Planet needs and that should unconsciously pull triggers at different steps in the plan. > Meteor vehicle theory.

This preparatory drawing for Junon's gas chamber presents a much more organic environment than the design that was finally chosen.
It's a setting that could have been inspired by the spirit of the Planet as well as Jenova's I think.
Maybe it was abandoned because it linked too easily the Planet and/or Jenova and the Tifa execution scene...

(montage ScreenRant)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would love to have your feelings on these few developments before continuing!
Thank you very much for your participation which allows me to put down what I have in my head and to try to give it shape.
I hope I have answered your questions in an acceptable way.

See you soon'

 

[Molosev]

Yeah. These things likely refer to things that Zack alone would have been familiar with, I think. Things like what happened in the Shinra Mansion. But also at this point I don’t think Tifa has actually registered that Cloud was there at all, hence her correcting Cloud about the last time they had seen each other. Tifa had no idea that the infantryman was Cloud in the OG, and they didn’t have a conversation with Cloud’s helmet removed like they did in The Last Order (although Tifa’s eyes are still open and blinking in the OG as Cloud moves her to safety, so she could have seen him but been too delirious to register it). So these things that Cloud shouldn’t have known could refer to anything that happened during the Nibelheim Incident according to Tifa at the time that she says those words.

You are right that the things that he shouldn’t have known but did are mentioned second, and that is interesting. To the player they seem more important because they relate to the Cloud-Zack mix-up, but to Tifa they are a secondary thought. She might well be more interested in the things that Cloud cannot remember. This makes sense as they would be the things which matter to Tifa more on a personal level.

Yes, this interpretation is well defended.

But I still think that Tifa can't know that much about what Cloud should have known. In the Lifestream I think it is Tifa that is recounting(*) a memory that belongs to Cloud, and if we see her eyes open in the scene it may be because she is altering that memory by recounting(*) it.

Tifa (in the lifestream)
Cloud, what about your other memories?
No, not memories.
A memory is something that has to be consciously recalled, right?
That's why sometimes it can be mistaken and a different thing......

So there's a great chance that she saw absolutely nothing following her fall, that she was unconscious.
In that case the only clue that answers correctly to the question "What can Tifa know about what Cloud should know?" is the misunderstanding about the last time they saw each other, and that is a detail that would undoubtedly be present in memories that would have been copied from Cloud's mind at the moment Sephiroth pierced him.

* ----------------------------
Cloud tells us in Kalm that he thought Tifa was a goner (ok he also thought he kind of was Zack) and here in the Lifestream his memories would show a conscsious Tifa (ok if he thought he kind of was Zack then maybe he didn't recalled Tifa's attitude well).
The dialogue (between the narrator of the memory and his listener) that accompanies the visual representation of Tifa with her eyes open (in OG the dialogues that took place at the time are written in an opaque blue background window while the comments in the present time are written in a transparent blue window - in The Last Order all these dialogues are merged as if everything was really said that day)

Tifa
You came. You kept your promise.
So you really did come when I was in trouble!

Cloud
Sorry... I didn't get there... fast enough...

Tifa
It's all right... Cloud.

This superimposed dialogue, then, tends to artificially reinforce the idea that Tifa was indeed conscious, when in reality we still only have two versions (OG) of what Cloud remembers of Tifa's state (Kalm and the visual representation in the Lifestream).

The fact that Cloud is showing a coherent different reality should be enough to convince us that this version is the correct one, why should it have been necessary to make it seem as if Tifa's eyes were open and to reinforce the idea of this state of consciousness by superimposing the dialogue I present above onto the scene?

Similarly, in reference to the scene on the Sector 7's train station, the fact that Cloud told Tifa things he shouldn't have known (and which would be revealed to us later) should have been enough to convince the player of the veracity of the final version. What's the point of all this talk about the last time they saw each other?
----------------------------------------

In the end, couldn't the fact that Tifa has her eyes open during this scene be proof that she is the one telling the story?
Edit: No this is not a proof since Tifa also has her eyes open in the Kalm sequence.

 

[Dionysos]

I'm of the opinion that if there is anything left of Sephiroth (other than a memory) at the time of the game then that something is being manipulated.
If Sephiroth was in charge, how could he have shown so little manners in sending his dear mother to risk her life before his own in the final battle?
The name that the last entity bears in this fight, Safer-Sephiroth, instils the idea that it is a construction, a more solid rampart. It's not the kind of name a new god would give himself I think. But nothing says that it is the name he gave himself. Can we imagine a Sephiroth at this stage of the adventure who would be so unsure of himself that he would have planned a backup incarnation just in case? It doesn't fit with the arrogant character that was shown to us.

Sephiroth pre-Nibelheim had flaws, but he wasn’t quite like the character he became after it. In the past I’ve put this down to him locking himself in the library and reading too many books which are outdated (not current research - a bit like locking yourself in a library containing only 19th Century scholarship on mythology or archaeology, etc). He was left with a faulty impression of what Jenova was/is, and also what he himself is, and he came to despise people in general due to his feeling of isolation and nonbelonging. After his physical death, upon being plopped into the Lifestream, his mind could have been further twisted. Eventually he doesn’t seem to care about putting his mother’s body in harm’s way if it furthers his goals. Despite what he says, I’m not so sure he truly cares about Jenova too much in the way that a child or even a well-adjusted adult would really care for their mother. Alternatively, he put parts of her corpse in harm’s way because he was aware that she cannot be defeated by conventional means as her cells are too powerful, and she lives on within him anyway.

But, true, Sephiroth did have Jenova cells inside him throughout his entire life. If he’d lacked them, he’d have been a completely different person. His Jenova cells defined him. With that comes his ability to create other manifestations of himself. We see that in Crisis Core with Genesis and Angeal too.
Safer-Sephiroth could be his version of Angeal Penance, etc, although Sephiroth works a bit differently to the G-type Soldier experiments.

Safer Sephiroth is one of the manifestations created because Sephiroth is at that point trapped in the core of the planet. His mortal body is pretty much dead, but he’s keeping himself going through sheer will-power.

But how much of Sephiroth is really the same as the guy who walked through the gates of Nibelheim in response to a reactor anomaly is very difficult to say. Like Cloud and Tifa, the Nibelheim Incident messed with Sephiroth's brain too.

I haven't noticed any clues linking Marco and Nibelheim (Remake) except for the proximity to Tifa and what we can assume about the place of origin of these clones (OG).

Yeah, I don’t know if any details have been provided about Marco as an individual, but in the OG these clones were mostly (if not entirely) the survivors of the Nibelheim Incident. Those that didn’t get killed by Sephiroth were experimented on and turned into ‘clones’ via the injection of Jenova cells. The exceptions would be Tifa and Zangan because the latter dragged the former to safety and then remained on the run from then on.

I’d say the chances of Marco being from Nibelheim are high, but it would have been a tight-knit community (unless the Remake vastly increases the town’s size) and so Tifa not mentioning his shared heritage to Cloud is either a bit suspect, or an oversight.

You're right, we shouldn't forget the Mako's action. We don't know if the clones have been through the same bath as Cloud and Zack. So maybe they're not super strong but Cloud is because he's been in there a long time (SOLDIER treatment).

If by this you mean the container in the Nibelheim Mansion basement, I'm not sure. I don't know where Hojo carried out his experiments on the other people, but I do believe they were infused with both Jenova cells and Mako, like Cloud.

So, is the Nibelheim incident an integral part of Hojo's experiment?

I would say so, yes. The incident finally gave Hojo the opportunity (the playground, if you like) he had been looking for to test his theories. Interestingly, he considers Cloud a failure for so long, and yet it is Cloud who proves his theory was correct, even if he doesn’t fully understand why.

I could not observe any spectacularly exponential dispersal of Jenova in the population at the time of the game. We would only have these few non-contagious 'clones' as infectious agents. One could say that if there was a dispersal theory then it was not proven in its experimental phase, which would not bode well for the success of an experiment to observe a hypothetical reunion of this original non-dispersion.

There weren’t many opportunities during the OG for Jenova to reach pandemic potential. Jenova’s corpse was contained within a tank at the beginning of the game, and tended to kill most people in other instances where the body appeared after breaking out. She exists within the cells of Sephiroth, but he’s underground, and in the mentally unstable clones. Jenova’s dispersal is ensured since the death of anybody with Jenova cells will put the Jenova cells in contact with the Lifestream, but until the finale of FFVII this process, if it was happening, must have been gradual.

Evidence of contagion is explored more fully in Crisis Core, where Genesis and Angeal (who have Jenova cells within them) can create imperfect copies of themselves by infecting other lifeforms.

The spread of Jenova reached its most widespread stage with Geostigma. Once Jenova got into the Lifestream then it could truly enjoy a worldwide impact and infect a lot of people. The Lifestream bursting out of the planet to stop Meteor had the unfortunate unintended side-effect of hastening this.

According to Zangan Hojo spoke of "the" experiment not "an" experiment. Also the quickness of the Shinra troop's intervention makes me think that the whole thing may have been premeditated.
Personally, I think Hojo anticipated that it would go wrong (is he the one who opens the door to Sephiroth?) and that this mess was to allow him to observe if Jenova would take advantage of it. The anomaly on the reactor valve would only have been a way to get the protagonists to come to the place of the experiment.

Only Cloud and Zack were immersed in Mako in the Shinra Mansion lab following this event (from what we see). Does this highlight Hojo's particular interest in them? Does this observation lead us to believe that the other test subjects (Nibelheimers) are second best?
Were they even real test subjects? After all we have no evidence that the 'clones' were injected with cells or bathed in Mako.
To try to support the latter hypothesis (Nibelheim clones are fake test subjects): the Shinra has put in a lot of effort to cover up the disaster that happened in Nibelheim. They rebuilt the city identically and then invited "actors" to come and take the place of the former inhabitants.
The city is not supposed to show any negative signs of the Shinra presence yet the company lets some very strange/scary characters roam the streets of the city, I find these attitudes contradictory.

Why wouldn't the 'clones' also be actors?
The play/masquerade theme is quite strong in this game with instances like the 'Loveless' play, the Honeybee Inn scene, the Gold Saucer play in which Cloud and Aerith are the main actors,

Spoiler: Remake spoiler

Jessie's profession in the Remake

and of course the Nibelheim incident coverage. We can also recall that Cloud has been called a puppet on several occasions what links him to the world of theatre.
These potential actors could artificially help to lead Cloud (the player) to believe that a reunion force is actually at work. They would be one of many suggestive forces placed along the way that would be intended to accompany the hero in fulfilling his destiny.

While Cloud's character incorporates Jenova's cells, whose effect allows him to be manipulated, the player who identifies with the hero is not contaminated! Yet Jenova says :
This is technically as much for the player as for Cloud. So what are the means used to manipulate the player and make him fulfil his destiny?
We can really talk about destiny in the case of the player because whatever choices he makes in the game he will always arrive at the same conclusion.

I think this clip from Dissidia Final Fantasy might be a nice reference to the 4th wall.

The actors at Nibelheim is one of the game’s creepiest moments. As you’ll know, they explored some of that in The Kids Are Alright too, with Evan’s mom being involved in the resettlement and then sent to locate the clones. I personally doubt that the ‘clones’ are actors. Most of them die, many in the Northern Crater, and their fate is quite tragic. If it was a charade, it was a fatal one to themselves and they must have been offered more than just a stack of money to do that. Their entire families would have to have been threatened or something. They’d be used either way. I put their failure down to them lacking the special combination which Cloud possessed, whatever that is. They instead became zombies.

Cloud’s mind may have been shot-to-hell, but he had some anchor points (in Zack and Tifa) which perhaps the others lacked. How Cloud alone became a ‘successful clone’ is, I believe, still a bit of a mystery, canonically, so that’s open to interpretation.

As for the acting/play parallels. I definitely agree that FFVII loves to play with this idea. The poem LOVELESS being reimagined as a popular play, Jenova calling Cloud a “puppet”, Nibelheim’s actors, Cait Sith being a puppet, and so on. Even now in the Remake project, they are doubling down on it. The PS5 release’s Yuffie DLC is called Intermission, another theatrical term.

There’s also a place in Midgar’s Sector 8 above the plate called Comus, which connects it with an ancient festivity god named Comus (and much later seen as the son of Dionysus, the Greek god of theatre and much else in Greek mythology and religion). This being the same artsy district where LOVELESS is performed, it seems to fit in with the theatrical theming. It's the sort of name people choose for businesses in districts like this in real life.

So I think we are absolutely meant to be thinking about the plot in these terms. Are the characters ever really in control, or are their actions being directed behind the fourth wall? It is important and does intersect with Cloud’s messed up identity.

What I can say is that the Cetras who infected others 2,000 years ago must have been pretty convincing to approach them when they thought they were dead.

Spoiler: Remake spoiler

We can't really tell if the scene you mention is reality or a reverie, as one of the alternate scenes features a dialogue with Aerith who obviously can't be physically present in that garden. But I have to say that Tifa seems to be totally blameless in terms of her attitude in the Remake. She does however confide that she feels trapped without elaborating further

.
At this point I can't tell if Tifa is 100% a puppet of Jenova or if she is unknowingly corrupted. The first hypothesis makes more sense from the point of view of my theory though (seeking efficiency). In any case I think Jenova has merged with Cloud's memories and entered Tifa's mind, I don't know if TIfa retained her original memories in whole, part or not at all.

I've been trying not to rely too much on what I can apprehend of the characters feelings in my analysis since I noticed that one of the first ideas instilled in us during the game's opening cinematic is that this world is potentially loveless.

The world can be loveless and people can still feel within it. I think the main point is that the organisation Shinra is unfeeling, despite providing electricity and making lives easier. The planet is unfeeling, despite offering life itself. Those two ‘unfeeling’ forces fight against each other, and the feeling humans are trapped in the middle.

The feeling humans aren’t just the playable characters, or even the NPCs, but probably the majority of the planet’s population. The normal humans. The people who are aren’t yet hubristic tyrants. People who just want to live and let live.

As for the Aerith garden scenes from the Remake, this is the Remake’s version of the ‘date mechanics’. Each scene is dependent on choices the player makes (or doesn’t make). More positive reactions with one character has the game decide to show the scene with them in it. The canonicity of all or none of them is both uncertain and a bit controversial. People invested in the Love Triangle Debate try hard to push for their desired canons, but ultimately all of these scenes contribute something valuable to the game (from Barret we learn more about unseen Avalanche members, such as Finn, for example). In that sense, it could be argued that they are all canonical alternatives to each other, and that none of them are incorrect. That’s my take.

Indeed, this revelation is a powerful lever that will make Cloud lose his mind and will push him to give the black materia to Sephiroth (maybe the real one this time).

After watching a let's play of Crisis Core I got the feeling that Zack had been trained in such a way as to create a set of skills/knowledge that then needed to be transferred to Cloud to allow him to start his mysterious mission in the best possible conditions (arriving by train for the reactor mission, falling on the flower bed in the church, etc...).
At the end of the game Zack reminds me of a hunted animal that his hunters (Turks and all) are driving back to Midgar. The player would once again fulfill his destiny, that of bringing a Cloud having integrated Zack's personality (experience) to Midgar, where he would be taken care of by AVALANCHE.

That’s a really interesting idea. That Zack’s actions were a sort of training exercise to pave the way for Cloud sort of fits the unbelievable coincidences we find in Crisis Core. Zack’s experiences do seem to mirror those of Cloud later on (as you say, falling through the ceiling into the church, meeting Aerith, riding the train, wielding the Buster Sword). If so, maybe it is the Planet, Fate or some other force running these tests rather than Shinra. Aside from Hojo, I don’t see what Shinra would gain from pulling a manipulative stunt like that. And Hojo sees Cloud as an accident and a failure, not realising his significance until the Reunion happens.

That's an interesting question !
To go further, is it the way my body reacts to stimuli sent by my environment that causes my neurons to fire in a particular direction?

Yes to everything! We’re all a product of our environment and our biology’s reaction to our environment. How much autonomy do we really have? Is it enough to say “I think, therefore I am?”

Is that enough if Cait Sith, a constructed doll, also thinks? That is, if he thinks, and Reeve isn’t doing all of his thinking. If Reeve isn’t actively controlling Cait Sith, merely giving him orders, is Cait Sith a programmed being? Or is he capable of thought?

This is a digression, but I do think it is useful to compare these issues surrounding Cait Sith with other characters in the game when it comes to memory and free will. Like Cloud "The Puppet" Strife and Tifa.

Ho I didn't notice it was the same Weapon ! I'll find some additional significance to it for sure Thanks !

You’re welcome! I think that part ties up neatly.

Tifa says that the memories she is questioning relate to the period after Cloud's departure from Nibelheilm seven years earlier, which seems to rule out earlier memories.
Tifa
But perhaps the evocation of post-departure memories allowed Tifa to remind Cloud of earlier memories but he did not respond coherently.

In that case this is primarily the game’s way of introducing the fact that Tifa doesn’t think that Cloud was present at the Nibelheim Incident, because Cloud was a helmeted infantryman and hid from her, and she doesn’t remember him with his helmet off. He must have filled Tifa in on the other memories when he met her at Midgar’s train station, and some of what Cloud told her must have inevitably have been merged with Zack’s story.

As for Tifa knowing things she is not meant to. Is what you are saying is that how did Tifa know that Cloud wasn’t a Soldier and that the story he told her couldn’t be true? While they may not have spoken in depth about the Nibelheim incident before Kalm, it is possible that a few words were exchanged and that Cloud had hinted at being there, which confused Tifa. She might not have known he wasn't a Soldier, but other aspects of the story might not have added up. Perhaps based on the remarks of Zack or other Soldiers when they were visiting Nibelheim (she was, after all, their guide and had many conversations with them).

Other than that, you are right that there are probably some gaps here. Hopefully the Remake could expand on this, but until then there is room for a lot of speculation about what she meant.

You are still not convinced by my idea that Jenova(Sephiroth) may be a tool for the Planet and I understand that perfectly.
Maybe this passage from the dialogue between Sephiroth and Cloud at the Temple of the Ancients will help a little.
He tells his mother (perhaps in thought) that they will soon become one during a tirade in which he explains that his goal is to become one with the planet.
I find that one can eventually understand that his mother is the planet.

I think the idea is that he will merge with the Planet (due to his influence over its Lifestream) and his mother, Jenova, due to the Reunion hypothesis and also the Jenova cells… To me it seems not to be clear if he really knows that Jenova is an alien or not at this point, though he must do by then if he has picked up knowledge from the Lifestream.

Since Sephiroth exists as part-human, part-Jenova, and because he is so powerful and resisted dissolving into the Lifestream when he died, I believe Sephiroth here is essentially planning to combine with the energy used to heal the Planet (after Meteor hits) with Jenova (whom he now has some level of control over - the extent is debatable, but he at least knows the cells pull to reunite), and this combination will transform him into a god. Essentially, your idea about the Planet and Jenova being the same being may be sort of Sephiroth’s endgame, for he perhaps intends to unite them into himself, and exceed them.

It is often said that the Planet’s Lifestream was his OG plan, and the negative Lifestream (Jenova’s particles within the Lifestream, creating a counterpart) was his amended plan during Advent Children. In this, he explicitly states he wants to roam the cosmos on the Planet, like his mother used to do (before she came to the FFVII Planet):
"What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos with this Planet as my vessel -- just as my mother did long ago."

Regarding the "judgment" of Tifa. I really like the reference to the Egyptian myth but I don't think that some entity wants to devour Tifa if she turns out to be impure.

I think the Planet is showing us with its means that what Tifa has in her heart is not convincing,. That Tifa is not entirely Tifa.
(Ideally this sequence should show that Tifa bears memories that belong to Cloud, basically that she knows things she shouldn't)
I think the Planet knows this because it is behind the transformation.
It uses its various entities (Jenova(Sephiroth), Tifa, Weapons, Lifestream, Shinra) to present us with this fact. Not to convince us but to play with the player's perspicacity, much like Sephiroth(Jenova) did during the Whirlwind Maze illusion.

But at the end of the sequence the Planet saves Tifa because it needs her to stay close to Cloud to accompany him to the completion of his mission. In my opinion, Cloud is an essential cog in the departure process of the next interstellar migration of the Cetras. He is the finger that the Planet needs and that should unconsciously pull triggers at different steps in the plan. > Meteor vehicle theory.

The Egyptian heart being devoured is more a metaphor for salvation or damnation and doesn’t need to be imagined literally (at least not my use of it here). It is one example out of many myths of the souls of the recently deceased being judged as worthy or unworthy by the gods.

I’m not yet certain about which memories Tifa has which she is not meant to have.

Whether or not he had always been, consciously or otherwise, I think Cloud in the original game and elsewhere in the Compilation is predominately pro-staying on the planet. Apart from the mental blip of passing the Black Materia over to Sephiroth, Cloud does eventually contribute towards stopping the destruction. And, if a migration was on the cards at this time, he ensured that didn't happen by what he and the party did at the end of the game (technically Aerith and the Lifestream prevented this, but Cloud and co treat this as a good, albeit mixed, thing and they are definitely not on the side of the meteor). Then Vincent, Cloud’s ally, stopped the migration in Dirge of Cerberus by defeating Ultima Weapon and prevented the Chaos entity within himself from destroying all life.

As for Tifa, if the Planet allows Tifa to remain despite her alleged insincerity, is the idea here that a confused Tifa would keep Cloud confused and more susceptible?

This preparatory drawing for Junon's gas chamber presents a much more organic environment than the design that was finally chosen.
It's a setting that could have been inspired by the spirit of the Planet as well as Jenova's I think.
Maybe it was abandoned because it linked too easily the Planet and/or Jenova and the Tifa execution scene...

This is fascinating. I’m definitely getting some H.R. Giger vibes from this. Giger being the creator of the Xenomorph, the Engineers, and set pieces of the Alien franchise.

Incidentally, we also see similar aesthetics pop up in FFIX within the context of artificial life and demons. We see it at Dali’s Black Mage factory, and also the android Garland’s lair of Pandemonium on the dying planet of Terra. This style, and Pandemonium itself, is also soon to resurface in FFXIV’s Endwalker expansion too...

Dali's Black Mage factory in FFIX.

Pandemonium in FFIX.

Endwalker trailer.​

So the visual connections are very interesting here.

I think, visually, this style better suits alien/otherworldly beings, or beings of ambiguous origin of great antiquity. The blurring of mechanical and biological is established as a trope here. It would have better suited the design of an execution chamber built by Sephiroth following the blueprint of Jenova, and not so much the execution chamber of the Shinra Electric Power Company. Villainous as they are, they typically represent the dominant, capitalistic, maybe even ‘western-leaning’ tendencies of modern mankind, which the version of the chamber we have in the game suits.

So I agree with you that this might be why the design was altered.

I would love to have your feelings on these few developments before continuing!
Thank you very much for your participation which allows me to put down what I have in my head and to try to give it shape.
I hope I have answered your questions in an acceptable way.

See you soon'

No problem. Sorry it takes me a while sometimes!

Yes, this interpretation is well defended.

But I still think that Tifa can't know that much about what Cloud should have known. In the Lifestream I think it is Tifa that is recounting(*) a memory that belongs to Cloud, and if we see her eyes open in the scene it may be because she is altering that memory by recounting(*) it.
So there's a great chance that she saw absolutely nothing following her fall, that she was unconscious.
In that case the only clue that answers correctly to the question "What can Tifa know about what Cloud should know?" is the misunderstanding about the last time they saw each other, and that is a detail that would undoubtedly be present in memories that would have been copied from Cloud's mind at the moment Sephiroth pierced him.

* ----------------------------
Cloud tells us in Kalm that he thought Tifa was a goner (ok he also thought he kind of was Zack) and here in the Lifestream his memories would show a conscsious Tifa (ok if he thought he kind of was Zack then maybe he didn't recalled Tifa's attitude well).
The dialogue (between the narrator of the memory and his listener) that accompanies the visual representation of Tifa with her eyes open (in OG the dialogues that took place at the time are written in an opaque blue background window while the comments in the present time are written in a transparent blue window - in The Last Order all these dialogues are merged as if everything was really said that day)
This superimposed dialogue, then, tends to artificially reinforce the idea that Tifa was indeed conscious, when in reality we still only have two versions (OG) of what Cloud remembers of Tifa's state (Kalm and the visual representation in the Lifestream).

The fact that Cloud is showing a coherent different reality should be enough to convince us that this version is the correct one, why should it have been necessary to make it seem as if Tifa's eyes were open and to reinforce the idea of this state of consciousness by superimposing the dialogue I present above onto the scene?

Tifa’s eyes being open is a puzzle, and it is not at all helped by The Last Order (which is now not considered canon). The Nibelheim Incident truly suffers from a Rashomon effect and we don’t ever really get the real version, I’d argue. And that is what makes this event so fascinating to me.

I think by your emphasis of the Lifestream version this opens up an interesting question. The version of the scene which Tifa and Cloud see in the Lifestream is a version which they are actively reconstructing as they go along, piecing their collective recollections together in order to form a version which they believe must be the closest to the truth. While this remains the most accurate version of the incident in the narrative of the OG, it is hardly a 100% accurate recollection of what actually happened, and it could still contain errors.

Memory is a very fragile thing. We can solidify memories if we retell them, and we can give a narrative form to dreams by writing them down, but both can be altered in the process of rationalising them as we write/speak. Dreams are usually much more surreal than the form we end up ‘canonising’ in the versions we tell to other people. We tend to introduce narrative/literary formats to dreams that aren’t necessarily present in the dreams themselves. Memories can be like that too. When we remember something we often change it, ever so subtly, to conform to the format of our retelling, and people sometimes fill the gaps with logical guesses so that such shadowy memories can be told and understood. We often don’t realise we are doing it.

This is perhaps especially important to consider here, when both Cloud and Tifa are dealing with very extreme cases of trauma. Cloud’s mother has died. Tifa’s father has died. They’ve both lost pretty much everyone they’ve ever known, and both of their houses, during the fire. In the Lifestream they fixed themselves good, but that doesn’t mean they fixed everything.

I no longer believe that we should imagine them returning from the Lifestream with everything sorted out, but they are definitely in a better position than they were in.

Similarly, in reference to the scene on the Sector 7's train station, the fact that Cloud told Tifa things he shouldn't have known (and which would be revealed to us later) should have been enough to convince the player of the veracity of the final version. What's the point of all this talk about the last time they saw each other?
----------------------------------------

In the end, couldn't the fact that Tifa has her eyes open during this scene be proof that she is the one telling the story?
Edit: No this is not a proof since Tifa also has her eyes open in the Kalm sequence.

The focus on the last time they saw each other was, I believe, intended to signal the disparity in what they each remembered.

The Nibelheim Incident happened five years ago. Cloud left Nibelheim to become a Soldier seven years ago.

Cloud thinks he was present at The Nibelheim Incident, therefore he thinks he last saw Tifa five years ago. Tifa thinks Cloud wasn’t present at The Nibelheim Incident, therefore she thinks she last saw Cloud seven years ago.

It is used to make the player notice that there are discrepancies in their accounts. They can’t both be correct. Somebody must be wrong. It turns out that both are simultaneously correct and wrong at the same time. Cloud was at Nibelheim five years ago, but he was a helmeted Infantryman.

I really think that Tifa, if her eyes are open, was still maybe not present in mind. As you say, it isn’t only in her retelling, although it is most clear here and we see Cloud tending to Tifa at this moment as himself.

But whether she sees Cloud or not, she doesn’t appear to remember any of it.

Unless, as your theory leans, she kept it from Cloud and isn't what she seems.

 

[Molosev]

Sephiroth pre-Nibelheim had flaws, but he wasn’t quite like the character he became after it. In the past I’ve put this down to him locking himself in the library and reading too many books which are outdated (not current research - a bit like locking yourself in a library containing only 19th Century scholarship on mythology or archaeology, etc). He was left with a faulty impression of what Jenova was/is, and also what he himself is, and he came to despise people in general due to his feeling of isolation and nonbelonging. After his physical death, upon being plopped into the Lifestream, his mind could have been further twisted. Eventually he doesn’t seem to care about putting his mother’s body in harm’s way if it furthers his goals. Despite what he says, I’m not so sure he truly cares about Jenova too much in the way that a child or even a well-adjusted adult would really care for their mother. Alternatively, he put parts of her corpse in harm’s way because he was aware that she cannot be defeated by conventional means as her cells are too powerful, and she lives on within him anyway.

But, true, Sephiroth did have Jenova cells inside him throughout his entire life. If he’d lacked them, he’d have been a completely different person. His Jenova cells defined him. With that comes his ability to create other manifestations of himself. We see that in Crisis Core with Genesis and Angeal too.
Safer-Sephiroth could be his version of Angeal Penance, etc, although Sephiroth works a bit differently to the G-type Soldier experiments.

Safer Sephiroth is one of the manifestations created because Sephiroth is at that point trapped in the core of the planet. His mortal body is pretty much dead, but he’s keeping himself going through sheer will-power.

But how much of Sephiroth is really the same as the guy who walked through the gates of Nibelheim in response to a reactor anomaly is very difficult to say. Like Cloud and Tifa, the Nibelheim Incident messed with Sephiroth's brain too.

I question what we are told about Sephiroth's psychic survival, his negative action on the Lifestream and also the idea that people infected with Jenova cells cannot re-enter the Lifesteam because I think the people who are telling us this information are corrupted by Jenova at the time they tell us. But I would have to elaborate on this point after I have made all my arguments about Tifa's corruption to have any chance of convincing on this point.

I’d say the chances of Marco being from Nibelheim are high, but it would have been a tight-knit community (unless the Remake vastly increases the town’s size) and so Tifa not mentioning his shared heritage to Cloud is either a bit suspect, or an oversight.

Spoiler: Remake

In the Remake one of the things that varies greatly from OG is that Tifa does not remind Cloud of his promise. instead he remembers it himself. But I find that many unnatural elements seem to be placed to make him remember it:

- The presentation of the Stargazer Heights motel at the point where in the original game Tifa reminds Cloud of his promise.
- The Crescent Moon Charm artefact that the motel owner (Tifa's friend) gives to Cloud, which according to the description seems to be designed to artificially weld the hearts of two people together.
- Tifa's outfit (white top over black top, ponytail, ranger boots) which is reminiscent of the outfit Cloud was wearing when he made the promise.
- The mission with the cats which echoes one of the positive things Cloud has done for Tifa in the past (Trace of two pasts)
- The word promise itself which is overused throughout the Remake and always in the presence of Cloud (even without counting the occurrences of Promised Land).
- The fact that Tifa does not use this argument directly this time.

In the Remake I was the one who felt trapped and I found it suspicious that Tifa said she felt trapped.

There weren’t many opportunities during the OG for Jenova to reach pandemic potential. Jenova’s corpse was contained within a tank at the beginning of the game, and tended to kill most people in other instances where the body appeared after breaking out. She exists within the cells of Sephiroth, but he’s underground, and in the mentally unstable clones. Jenova’s dispersal is ensured since the death of anybody with Jenova cells will put the Jenova cells in contact with the Lifestream, but until the finale of FFVII this process, if it was happening, must have been gradual.

Evidence of contagion is explored more fully in Crisis Core, where Genesis and Angeal (who have Jenova cells within them) can create imperfect copies of themselves by infecting other lifeforms.

The spread of Jenova reached its most widespread stage with Geostigma. Once Jenova got into the Lifestream then it could truly enjoy a worldwide impact and infect a lot of people. The Lifestream bursting out of the planet to stop Meteor had the unfortunate unintended side-effect of hastening this.

I think that before the original game Jenova already acquired the tools (monsters and doppelgängers) that would allow her to start a pandemic but that she changed her strategy from her action 2000 years ago in order to have a chance to succeed in the next migration. Under Hojo's watch I think she had every opportunity to trigger this pandemic as it would have only taken one infected person to start.

The actors at Nibelheim is one of the game’s creepiest moments. As you’ll know, they explored some of that in The Kids Are Alright too, with Evan’s mom being involved in the resettlement and then sent to locate the clones. I personally doubt that the ‘clones’ are actors. Most of them die, many in the Northern Crater, and their fate is quite tragic. If it was a charade, it was a fatal one to themselves and they must have been offered more than just a stack of money to do that. Their entire families would have to have been threatened or something. They’d be used either way. I put their failure down to them lacking the special combination which Cloud possessed, whatever that is. They instead became zombies.

Perhaps the actors were simply not told what their end was to be.

Spoiler: Remake

A counter argument to the actors' hypothesis could also be that in the Remake these clones seem to be endowed with powerful (supernatural) shapeshifting/illusionistic skills.

There’s also a place in Midgar’s Sector 8 above the plate called Comus, which connects it with an ancient festivity god named Comus (and much later seen as the son of Dionysus, the Greek god of theatre and much else in Greek mythology and religion). This being the same artsy district where LOVELESS is performed, it seems to fit in with the theatrical theming. It's the sort of name people choose for businesses in districts like this in real life.

Spoiler: Remake

Oh, nice observation!
Still on the subject of theatre, doesn't Jessie's interest in Cloud seem a bit contrived/suspicious from the moment we learn that she's a professional actress?
Doesn't Jessie's request to Cloud for help in obtaining explosives should be reminiscent to him that he has pledged to come and get a certain person out of trouble if she need it? Perhaps the same goes for the damsel in distress sequence. Although he has already remembered his promise at this point, I think it may still be interesting (for the scriptwriter) to support this theme to ensure Cloud's (the player's) commitment.

The world can be loveless and people can still feel within it. I think the main point is that the organisation Shinra is unfeeling, despite providing electricity and making lives easier. The planet is unfeeling, despite offering life itself. Those two ‘unfeeling’ forces fight against each other, and the feeling humans are trapped in the middle.

The feeling humans aren’t just the playable characters, or even the NPCs, but probably the majority of the planet’s population. The normal humans. The people who are aren’t yet hubristic tyrants. People who just want to live and let live.

As for the Aerith garden scenes from the Remake, this is the Remake’s version of the ‘date mechanics’. Each scene is dependent on choices the player makes (or doesn’t make). More positive reactions with one character has the game decide to show the scene with them in it. The canonicity of all or none of them is both uncertain and a bit controversial. People invested in the Love Triangle Debate try hard to push for their desired canons, but ultimately all of these scenes contribute something valuable to the game (from Barret we learn more about unseen Avalanche members, such as Finn, for example). In that sense, it could be argued that they are all canonical alternatives to each other, and that none of them are incorrect. That’s my take.

I agree that we are not shown any unmistakable reason to believe that the characters cannot have feelings in the game, in any case, they seem to be able to share it.

Yes it's true we learn some interesting things especially with Barret but maybe something is able to broadcast information in the form of dreams. A dreamweaver for instance?

That’s a really interesting idea. That Zack’s actions were a sort of training exercise to pave the way for Cloud sort of fits the unbelievable coincidences we find in Crisis Core. Zack’s experiences do seem to mirror those of Cloud later on (as you say, falling through the ceiling into the church, meeting Aerith, riding the train, wielding the Buster Sword). If so, maybe it is the Planet, Fate or some other force running these tests rather than Shinra. Aside from Hojo, I don’t see what Shinra would gain from pulling a manipulative stunt like that. And Hojo sees Cloud as an accident and a failure, not realising his significance until the Reunion happens.

I'm glad you're interested in this idea
Maybe it was fate or the Planet that also decided the advent of the Shinra electric power company for some purpose.

Yes to everything! We’re all a product of our environment and our biology’s reaction to our environment. How much autonomy do we really have? Is it enough to say “I think, therefore I am?”

Is that enough if Cait Sith, a constructed doll, also thinks? That is, if he thinks, and Reeve isn’t doing all of his thinking. If Reeve isn’t actively controlling Cait Sith, merely giving him orders, is Cait Sith a programmed being? Or is he capable of thought?

This is a digression, but I do think it is useful to compare these issues surrounding Cait Sith with other characters in the game when it comes to memory and free will. Like Cloud "The Puppet" Strife and Tifa.

Yes it's true, I often tend to neglect to consider Cait Sith... Shame.

As for Tifa knowing things she is not meant to. Is what you are saying is that how did Tifa know that Cloud wasn’t a Soldier and that the story he told her couldn’t be true? While they may not have spoken in depth about the Nibelheim incident before Kalm, it is possible that a few words were exchanged and that Cloud had hinted at being there, which confused Tifa. She might not have known he wasn't a Soldier, but other aspects of the story might not have added up. Perhaps based on the remarks of Zack or other Soldiers when they were visiting Nibelheim (she was, after all, their guide and had many conversations with them).

Other than that, you are right that there are probably some gaps here. Hopefully the Remake could expand on this, but until then there is room for a lot of speculation about what she meant.

No, I think that the real (as well as the potential fake) Tifa must legitimately know that Cloud was not a SOLDIER at that event, but you're right the question was worth asking.

What strikes me is that she says she knows a lot of things about what Cloud should have known but I don't see how she could know so many things, or even one. Apart from the detail about the last time they saw each other which acts as an effective cover that leads us not to ask further questions (> Cloud should have known that the last time they saw each other was 7 years ago, not 5, that's what Tifa knows about what he should have known, no need to look further). It is perhaps interesting to note that this is the only date in the whole compilation whose accuracy is of interest to the plot.

Spoiler: Remake

It is strange that in the Remake we are made to understand that since they have been together in Midgar Cloud and Tifa have not told each other anything about past events. At one point Tifa offers to talk about it, but nothing is developed. I think that so far in the Remake Tifa hasn't had a chance to question what Cloud should have known (except about the 5 and 7 years again).

Was it really different in the original game? What really made her enlist him in AVALANCHE? Because it was Cloud's inconsistencies (plural), she says, that made her want to keep him around. Note that the Kalm sequence happens way later !

Tifa
Actually, it's been seven years.
You got your wish and joined SOLDIER, quit after the Sephiroth incident, and now you're a mercenary...
You told me a lot about what happened after you left Nibelheim...
But...
...Something's wrong. I felt there was something strange about the things you talked about.
All the things you didn't know that you should, And other things you shouldn't know that you did...
I wanted to make sure...
But then I heard... you were going far away...
And I didn't want that...
...I didn't know what to do. So, I thought I needed more time.
And that's why I told you about the AVALANCHE job. I wanted to be with you, watch you.

I'm not sure that the Remake will give us any clearer answers than what has already been said in the compilation. Dirge of Cerberus starts with this sentence: "And so the hound weaves the final chapter in this tale of life". One can possibly understand that after this opus all the elements of understanding have been presented. Maybe everything was already presented in the original game.

I think the idea is that he will merge with the Planet (due to his influence over its Lifestream) and his mother, Jenova, due to the Reunion hypothesis and also the Jenova cells… To me it seems not to be clear if he really knows that Jenova is an alien or not at this point, though he must do by then if he has picked up knowledge from the Lifestream.

Since Sephiroth exists as part-human, part-Jenova, and because he is so powerful and resisted dissolving into the Lifestream when he died, I believe Sephiroth here is essentially planning to combine with the energy used to heal the Planet (after Meteor hits) with Jenova (whom he now has some level of control over - the extent is debatable, but he at least knows the cells pull to reunite), and this combination will transform him into a god. Essentially, your idea about the Planet and Jenova being the same being may be sort of Sephiroth’s endgame, for he perhaps intends to unite them into himself, and exceed them.

It is often said that the Planet’s Lifestream was his OG plan, and the negative Lifestream (Jenova’s particles within the Lifestream, creating a counterpart) was his amended plan during Advent Children. In this, he explicitly states he wants to roam the cosmos on the Planet, like his mother used to do (before she came to the FFVII Planet):
"What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos with this Planet as my vessel -- just as my mother did long ago."

Is the Lifestream's natural fate to sail the darkness of the cosmos?

The presentation of Omega aboard the Shera (DoC) strongly reinforce the idea that the Cetras can be brought to travel from planet to planet. It explains that planets die and return to the cosmos in the same way that the Cetras die and return to the Lifestream. Whether by natural death or not they die at some point. In the final moments of the planet's life an entity composed of mako energy called Omega gathers all life forms and propels them into the cosmos. What is the cosmos if not a large number of planets and stars scattered in a great void? It is maybe conceivable that long ago the Cetras were forced to leave their previous planet because it was at the end of its life and that the planet propelled them to the game's planet (which they naturally had to terraform first in order to settle there). If it hasn't already happened, it's supposed to happen in the future. In any case I think we can tell from these elements that the fate of the Cetras is to travel from planet to planet.

So What will the Cetras who have been propelled to another planet be born from? The logical answer is that they will be born from the Lifestream, not from the rock they land on (although the rock would help them settle down). I also think there is a good chance that the landing (crash) will form a large hole comparable to the Northern Crater.

Is the Lifestream also the natural vessel since the Lifestream is the Planet essentially? (the vessel Sephiroth is talking about)
Can we still believe that the Lifestream is not an alien?

Essentially, your idea about the Planet and Jenova being the same being may be sort of Sephiroth’s endgame, for he perhaps intends to unite them into himself, and exceed them.

That or the Planet allows him to do that for her.

The Egyptian heart being devoured is more a metaphor for salvation or damnation and doesn’t need to be imagined literally (at least not my use of it here). It is one example out of many myths of the souls of the recently deceased being judged as worthy or unworthy by the gods.

I’m not yet certain about which memories Tifa has which she is not meant to have.

Whether or not he had always been, consciously or otherwise, I think Cloud in the original game and elsewhere in the Compilation is predominately pro-staying on the planet. Apart from the mental blip of passing the Black Materia over to Sephiroth, Cloud does eventually contribute towards stopping the destruction. And, if a migration was on the cards at this time, he ensured that didn't happen by what he and the party did at the end of the game (technically Aerith and the Lifestream prevented this, but Cloud and co treat this as a good, albeit mixed, thing and they are definitely not on the side of the meteor). Then Vincent, Cloud’s ally, stopped the migration in Dirge of Cerberus by defeating Ultima Weapon and prevented the Chaos entity within himself from destroying all life.

As for Tifa, if the Planet allows Tifa to remain despite her alleged insincerity, is the idea here that a confused Tifa would keep Cloud confused and more susceptible?

Yes, this sequence evokes a kind of purgatory, I understood your metaphor well.

Cloud is presumed to be a puppet so while he thinks that he contributes towards stopping a destruction, maybe he's led to do something else without realizing it.

I think, as I explain in the link shared in my precedent post, that the final battle is supposed to regulate the execution of the actions (Meteor summon and Holy) that are supposed to allow the meteor to be propelled into the cosmos. The battles that Cloud leads during the adventure should give him the necessary experience to be able to resist and defeat the holders of these forces (Bizarro Sephiroth presumably restraining Holy - Safer Sephiroth presumably holding the Meteor summon) one after the other in order to trigger events.
By beating Bizzaro we free Holy who comes to place himself under the Meteor then the Meteor who was waiting immobile for the arrival of Holy comes to press himself against him (Nanaki: "Holy is having the opposite effect"). Extreme pressure. The Lifestream takes advantage of this delay to join the Meteor ship. And finally by beating Safer we break the Meteor invocation annihilating in one go the extreme pressure he was applying against Holy which would instantly cause the propulsion of the ship towards the cosmos.
Of course, the effects of the actions taken at the Northern Crater are observed with a certain delay over Midgar due to the distance between the two places.

In this sense, couldn't the real purpose of the data analysis done by Hojo, Chadley and Scarlet be a mean to prepare/calibrate this final battle?


I am not so sure that the migration was not successful while leaving some remains behind.
Concerning Vincent's action (Chaos) here is an extract from the Omega reports.

Chaos

My conscience tells me that I must leave some sort of record
documenting all that I have attempted.

That which slumbers within him... The antithesis of Omega... Chaos...

Soul wrought of terra corrupt...
Before Omega begins his journey to the sea of stars, Chaos will scourge
the world of all things living, sending them back to the Lifestream...

Only to be left with the burden of bearing the discarded remains of a
dying world.

And it was I who...

I am so sorry...

If Vincent (Chaos) is charged with carrying the remains of a dying world (following the potential departure of the meteor migration) it is noticeable that these remains do not seem to be fracturing as quickly as shown in the presentation on board the Shera. There must be a burden to bear for some time otherwise this sentence is meaningless. Perhaps this period is the one depicted in Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus.

To sum up my thoughts, maybe the migration really took off and the discarded remains is what is left on the rock, under the custody of Cerberus.

As for Tifa, if the Planet allows Tifa to remain despite her alleged insincerity, is the idea here that a confused Tifa would keep Cloud confused and more susceptible?

If by that you mean that a Tifa playing the role of a confused person (regarding her relationship with Cloud) could help keep Cloud confused and thus make him vulnerable and manipulable, this is indeed what I think.

This is fascinating. I’m definitely getting some H.R. Giger vibes from this. Giger being the creator of the Xenomorph, the Engineers, and set pieces of the Alien franchise.

Incidentally, we also see similar aesthetics pop up in FFIX within the context of artificial life and demons. We see it at Dali’s Black Mage factory, and also the android Garland’s lair of Pandemonium on the dying planet of Terra. This style, and Pandemonium itself, is also soon to resurface in FFXIV’s Endwalker expansion too...

Dali's Black Mage factory in FFIX.

Pandemonium in FFIX.

Endwalker trailer.​

So the visual connections are very interesting here.

I think, visually, this style better suits alien/otherworldly beings, or beings of ambiguous origin of great antiquity. The blurring of mechanical and biological is established as a trope here. It would have better suited the design of an execution chamber built by Sephiroth following the blueprint of Jenova, and not so much the execution chamber of the Shinra Electric Power Company. Villainous as they are, they typically represent the dominant, capitalistic, maybe even ‘western-leaning’ tendencies of modern mankind, which the version of the chamber we have in the game suits.

So I agree with you that this might be why the design was altered.

And yet if we follow the canon there seems to be no connection between Sephiroth/Jenova and the Shinra's decision to execute Tifa. So maybe, as I propose, there is a hidden link between these entities.

Apart from that, I think nature might be capable of producing this kind of spine-like structure, although it's true that in the collective imagination this kind of setting usually evokes the action of alien/otherworldly beings, or of beings of ambiguous origin of great antiquity.
But wait, from what I posted above, wouldn't the Cetras be likely to be this kind of alien/otherworldly beings, or of beings of ambiguous origin of great antiquity?

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You’re welcome! I think that part ties up neatly.

I agree with you and I have to say that it was a big surprise to me to be able to align these elements so neatly.

It wasn't this scene that I studied first after hypothesising that Tifa might be carrying memories belonging to Cloud, I was naturally interested in the Lifestream scene first and as you'll see it was the virulence of the Lifestream's interrogation of Tifa in the introduction to this scene that inspired the idea that in the scene mentioned earlier (Tifa's heart) Tifa wasn't naturally rethinking her past deeds but was in fact being led to open her heart.

Well, we are probably ready to continue!


3 - Could events that relate to Tifa show that she bears some memories that belong to Cloud ?

3.B - Tifa tells the Lifestream that it is asking the wrong person​

As you pointed out to me, Ultimate Weapon, the same weapon whose contact with Tifa led her to show us what was in her heart, this time drops Tifa and Cloud into the Lifestream allowing the player to observe a field of conscience once again.

We are again shown Tifa against a black background (Cloud is absent from the image) and while in the previous episode it may have seemed that it was Tifa's decision to freely share her memories, this time she is clearly challenged by the Lifestream. She seems to have to answer questions asked by someone aggressive.
It seems to me that what is generally perceived by the players is that Tifa is being accused by the Lifestream of being responsible for the attack on the Midgar reactors. In this case she would be lying to the Lifestream but lying does not seem to be a talent that can be easily associated with Tifa.

So maybe Tifa is not lying but there is an anomaly with her memory. Perhaps it is this anomaly that makes the judge aggressive and causes him to delve deeper into the memory being studied to find the cause. The scene in the Lifestream would then be what we are given to see of Tifa's memory, a memory that would be filled with memories belonging to Cloud.

Tifa
Huh...... what......? Who......?
Who is it......? I can't hear......

Wait a minute......! I don't know anything about that!
No! It's not me......! I'd never do anything like that!!

Tifa does not understand what is being asked of her, she seems to be telling the Lifestream that it has the wrong person.
The sounds of machine guns/helicopters and trains heard in this sequence may be indicative of events Cloud experienced when he was in the infantry.

Why would we enter Cloud's mind when it is Tifa who is violently challenged in the introduction to this sequence? It would be more of an opportunity for Tifa to go into introspection in my opinion.

If the questioning of Tifa is related to the Midgar attacks, why are the elements of memory that we are shown afterwards not related to this event? Why do we see a scene where Tifa comes to help Cloud come to his senses instead?

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I'll leave it here for now.

I hope I've taken enough of your comments into account, and if I've left any out it's probably because I feel that Tifa's corruption could reverse the way we perceive some of the information given and even the plot in general.

Concerning the focus on the last time Cloud and Tifa saw each other, I agree with you that it seems to signal the disparity in what they each remembered. This is certainly the intention, but perhaps this information is also a cover for other more sensitive information as I'm trying to show.

Please tell me what you think !