Mr. Fish of The Forgotten City.

[Dionysos]

Ok.. I had a weird dream about this fish the other day, probably inspired by reading Kelly's dead fish thread just before I went to bed (cod rest its soul), so decided to make a thread about it.

Anyway, this is a thread to discuss it.

In case you haven't a clue what I'm on about it is the fish that blocks the stairway into the

Spoiler

place where Aerith died

. It appears before and after that incident I believe. And just stays there floating.
Here it is:

(Cheers to Andy / Himiko for that screenshot )

Did anybody else get mesmerised by this fish? Did you spend ages just watching it float there?

Also... The most important question is what do you think it is?
It's a fish, yeah, but is there anything more to it? It always looked pretty hologramish to me, but I'm not sure if it is ever explained, or if it is just a very weird looking fish.

There's all sorts of theories about it on the internet, none of which I believe, as to the identity of this fish. Some claim it is Aerith (who I don't think it can be, as I thought the fish appeared before "the incident" as well as after), or another ancient being preserved forever as a fish (which might be possible perhaps).


Also.. It just appears to hover there, not really in water or anything. Though it appears to act as if it is, but Cloud and co are not underwater....



Anyway. Thoughts on this fish?

 

[GanjaKat]

i see what you mean, before i read what you said i thought it looked rather "hologramatic" but imo the designers just got lazy
"Hey guys, i got a idea. How about we add a really big fish, floating there all fish like, make it kinda transparent and we dont even put it in water. That will get people talking about our game and making theories about "the fish"

 

[King Sean]

Wow that fish....it's so big. i never even noticed it before. Now that you mention it, it is kind of mesmerizing in a way. Kind of looks like a hologram though. Dont know it could survive by itself for all those years without any caretakers. It was probaly put in the game to enhance the scenery of that place, or just for fun

 

[Dionysos]

Wow that fish....it's so big. i never even noticed it before. Now that you mention it, it is kind of mesmerizing in a way. Kind of looks like a hologram though. Dont know it could survive by itself for all those years without any caretakers. It was probaly put in the game to enhance the scenery of that place, or just for fun

True. The whole city is water themed, with shells as buildings and floor that looks a bit like a sea bed in some parts. Perhaps they went crazy on this theme, scratched their heads, and said "well why not just complete this image with a massive fish?"

As for caretakers etc, there would have been no-one to feed it since the collapse of the Cetra society. Perhaps Aerith's mother, Ifalna, and the line from which she is descended might have fed it a bit, before being taken by Shinra etc. But still... That means it hadn't been fed for at least 20 or so years.

Or perhaps it is a magical fish, filled with ancient power, and can exist without food... Or it is a hologram... Or it is a ghost of a fish that once lived there BEFORE the Cetra settled in it, when it might still have been under water.

i see what you mean, before i read what you said i thought it looked rather "hologramatic" but imo the designers just got lazy
"Hey guys, i got a idea. How about we add a really big fish, floating there all fish like, make it kinda transparent and we dont even put it in water. That will get people talking about our game and making theories about "the fish"

Perhaps. Half-ideas I guess. They have meetings, come up with an awesome idea, "a giant fish in the Cetra capital!", they all clap and cheer... They put it in the game, but they never go anywhere with it or explain it.

Maybe it was an inside joke?


If they were ever to do another FF7 spin-off, THIS is what I would like to see expanded! I'm serious, a game about the Cetra could be pretty epic, and this fish could be a part of it. That's if they had to do another spin-off etc.

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

I think the fish (and the weeds that surround it) are just there to hide the entrance to the lower city from outsiders. Afterall it doesn't dissapear until Aerith, who could talk to the Cetra spirits that still inhabitited places like the Temple and possibly the city, made her way down there that night.

 

[GanjaKat]

im sure there are little things in the game tha give on as to what the fish is there for, but you wouldnt pick up onlittle hints coz you dont think about the big fish the whole way through

 

[Bambi]

I think you people are reading too much into it

it's just a big fish blocking your path...and i never gave it a second thought, it's probably just there for decoration xD

 

[Big Casino]

I think you people are reading too much into it

it's just a big fish blocking your path...and i never gave it a second thought, it's probably just there for decoration xD

Hahahahaha exactly.
Its a fish thats there for no reason at all. The game designer never bothered with something cooler because they didnt think it was important at all to the fans.... MY thoughts

 

[Dionysos]

Shhh!
Lol, I know it probably doesn't mean anything, but what if it did?

We can't say for sure it was just there for decoration or to fit the theme. There might have been a greater plan for it they just never bothered to develop. I mean it is a bit random. As random animated scenes / objects like that go in FF7, Mr. Fish is probably the most random.

The ghosts playing chess etc in the Haunted Hotel serve the purpose of making the hotel spooky, etc. The baby eagle / chicken things on the road to Corel act as the babies of the bird monster thing you fight if you wish to disturb. Etc etc.

Mr. Fish doesn't make any sense, asides blocking the stairs which they could have done with a boulder or something.

They probably were just being creative though.

im sure there are little things in the game tha give on as to what the fish is there for, but you wouldnt pick up onlittle hints coz you dont think about the big fish the whole way through

I'm not sure if it is mentioned anywhere though.

I don't even know where the "Mr. Fish" thing came from. Perhaps someone does mention it, or Aerith does before

Spoiler

she takes her last bath

.

Next time I replay it, I'll keep an eye out for it, but I dunno if there will be much. It probably was just decoration, but I like to think they had some sort of reason for putting it there. Even if it was just to make people go crazy, and come up with theories etc.

 

[Ashe B'nargin]

... It's Sephiroth..

He didn't want Cloud to save Aeris/ Aerith so he transformed into a giant Fish and blocked the path from the temple palace below so Cloud couldn't stop Aeris/ Aerith..

Jokes aside...

Reckon it's just a massive/ random blocker so you couldn't head down into the temple straight away, making the place more mysterious/more eerie/ had more suspense..

Always thought that it was just a giant pod/ lake in the middle of the road with just a Fish inside to prove to players- that hey- this is a giant pod/ lake in a middle of a path..

Could be wrong though...

 

[EVA]

It's Nemo. ^^

Anyway, I never thought the fish symbolized anything. I thought it looked really awesome (not to mention cute), but I never saw it as anything else but logical.

 

[M'aiq the Liar]

The fish has been a mystery ever since it had appeared when final fantasy seven was originally released.
But i have the answer, the truth behind this macarol mystery.
The fish is blocking the path for one reason and one reason alone....Disc Space.
You see, in disc 2, there was not enough memory to go back to the area where aerith goes. With new monsters and machines and other stuff on disc two that is not on disc one, something had to be cut to save data. that thing was the area that the mystical fish blocks....

that or the Fish is GOD....

But thats a different theory entirely.

 

[Bakusa]

In the Lansing Theory (one of the first Aeris Resurrection theories to go online, back before FFVII was released in US) he mentions "Mr. Fish" as being who you'd talk to with the Underwater materia or something, as a step to reviving Aeris. I never knew what the hell he meant but now that I look at this, I get it.

That was irrelevant though because his theory was complete crap.

So I'm just going to say this is a... fish. A decoration in the game I guess.

 

[Gongangan Hobo]

I hate you for making this thread because now I want the fish to mean something!!!!!

 

[Molosev]

Hi,

I came across the fish last night. Some research on the net brought me some interesting information and also a link to this thread (fff is really a haven of specialists

It represents a Koi carp, isn't it?
Here is what the french wikipedia page for Koï tells me:

L'entrée du fourreau (saya) d'un sabre (katana) est appelée koiguchi (鯉口), litt. « bouche de carpe ».
which translates in english to : The entrance to the scabbard (saya) of a sword (katana) is called koiguchi (鯉口), lit. "carp mouth".

When we know what happens between the moment the fish disappears and the moment it reappears, perhaps 'that fish' is used as a symbol to represent the drawing of a katana, the accomplishment of a task, and the return to the scabbard (kind of).

What do you think ?

Edit: Oh I just learned that Koi means carp, so writing 'Koi carp' is quite inelegant. But in my defence I was misled because in French I have often heard it said 'carpe Koï'.

Perhaps I am influenced by French culture to make this assumption. In French we often call 'mouth' the entrance to an underground passage, for example we speak of 'bouche de métro' (subway mouth) to mean 'subway entrance'.
So when I look at the fish sequence I can easily read it as : Carp mouth is closed > Carp mouth is open > Carp mouth is closed again.

 

[Dionysos]

Hi,

I came across the fish last night. Some research on the net brought me some interesting information and also a link to this thread (fff is really a haven of specialists

It represents a Koi carp, isn't it?
Here is what the french wikipedia page for Koï tells me:

When we know what happens between the moment the fish disappears and the moment it reappears, perhaps 'that fish' is used as a symbol to represent the drawing of a katana, the accomplishment of a task, and the return to the scabbard (kind of).

What do you think ?

Edit: Oh I just learned that Koi means carp, so writing 'Koi carp' is quite inelegant. But in my defence I was misled because in French I have often heard it said 'carpe Koï'.

Perhaps I am influenced by French culture to make this assumption. In French we often call 'mouth' the entrance to an underground passage, for example we speak of 'bouche de métro' (subway mouth) to mean 'subway entrance'.
So when I look at the fish sequence I can easily read it as : Carp mouth is closed > Carp mouth is open > Carp mouth is closed again.

Thanks for reminding me of this. There was a broken image in the first post which I have now fixed.

Don't worry, people often say Koi carp in English too, to distinguish them from the wider group. Koi I believe being the more decorative varieties of carp (including goldfish, etc), which the Cetran carp is certainly a part of.

In English we also sometimes call the entrance to something a 'mouth' too. Bodies of water. Sometimes tunnels, etc.

I didn't know anything about the symbolism of koi carp in that context, but what you say is very interesting. I can certainly see how the opening of a scabbard might look like a koi mouth.

The symbolism of it, considering that Aerith was killed by a blade, seems highly appropriate. Whether it was intended or not, it adds an additional layer to it, in my opinion.

The fish could also represent a ghostly remnant of prehistoric life in the valley before the Cetra even lived there. The Cetra lived in a dried-out seabed, with plentiful fossils and exposed coral in the area. Some Cetrans had even built their homes inside giant, abandoned seashells.
Perhaps the Cetra built a hologram of a fish for educational purposes to express what had existed in their home valley before they got there. Who knows?

Having said that, carp are, I believe, usually freshwater fish on our own planet, so it doesn't quite fit the saltwater surroundings. That could be nitpicking though, or things could have evolved differently on the FFVII Planet.

The Corel/Corral Valley (the region including the Forgotten Capital/City) also gives off serious Atlantis vibes (in the way that Atlantis is often presented in modern popular culture: as in incorporating aquatic life and aquatic theming into the design of the city/continent itself). Water appears to be used to transfer data, projection devices display images on waterfalls, and the hologram/ghostly fish completes this picture (I wrote a weird article about the what I thought about the Cetra from an in-universe perspective in Timber Maniacs, Issue 1: pages 25-30).

Here the Atlantean parallels seem to be enough to signify a mysterious, advanced, ancient civilisation, without ever needing to force the player to spend a long time pondering over it (not that it'll stop us). Although Plato's allegorical Atlantis was a tale of hubris and consequential downfall, which does not correlate well with what we know of the conscientious Cetra, it does at the very least signify a time 'long, long ago' whilst also indicating that the civilisation was destroyed.



-

Good to see you again! I hope you're well.

 

[Molosev]

Hi Dio, I'm fine thanks, hope you are too.

Ah yes well done, the first post is much more engaging with the images.

The other screenshots of the forgotten city are beautiful, I especially like the one showing the 'white tree' in front of the mountains. I'd never seen the whole picture before, thanks!
I had fun reading your article in the gazette, good work

The carp is intimately linked to the samurai figure. It is attributed with a lot of qualities that are also those of the samurai.

There's obviously room for all kinds of interpretation and I'm by no means sure I hold the truth, but to go along with my theory I think the supports that holds the fish would be better suited to hold a katana. In any case, it seems strange to want to present a fish by wedging it on its fins. Also if it was a hologram there would be no obvious reason to present it on a rack.

I also found it striking that the fish is perfectly still while the seaweed around it undulates, but I don't know what to make of this last observation.
Also maybe it's made translucent so you can see the supports better and make the connection with the katana

 

[Dionysos]

Hi Dio, I'm fine thanks, hope you are too.

Ah yes well done, the first post is much more engaging with the images.

The other screenshots of the forgotten city are beautiful, I especially like the one showing the 'white tree' in front of the mountains. I'd never seen the whole picture before, thanks!
I had fun reading your article in the gazette, good work

I'm okay, thank you. Been a weird time for many of us, I'd imagine. Circumstances have certainly called for a lot of self-reflection this year.

Thank you!
It was perhaps the oddest article I ever wrote for the Timber Maniacs (considering that I was writing it from a fictional parody chocobo's perspective whilst also taking the topic itself deeply seriously).

The Forgotten Capital is a genuinely stunning location. And the music is very, very haunting too. It rightly makes you reflect on the peoples who once inhabited it.

The carp is intimately linked to the samurai figure. It is attributed with a lot of qualities that are also those of the samurai.

There's obviously room for all kinds of interpretation and I'm by no means sure I hold the truth, but to go along with my theory I think the supports that holds the fish would be better suited to hold a katana. In any case, it seems strange to want to present a fish by wedging it on its fins. Also if it was a hologram there would be no obvious reason to present it on a rack.

I also found it striking that the fish is perfectly still while the seaweed around it undulates, but I don't know what to make of this last observation.
Also maybe it's made translucent so you can see the supports better and make the connection with the katana

I see it as a piece of coral myself (one of the fingery types), but I can see how it might look like a double for a katana stand too. And it supports your koi idea.
As for the fish being stationary, maybe it is sleeping? Fish like that find a cosy little spot to settle and then sleep with their eyes open. My (now deceased) goldfish used to do that all the time and they looked quite a bit like this fish in that regard.

The reason I imagine it to be a hologram is because Cetra do appear to have that technology (see the waterfall area) and it seems to be turned on and off whenever people pass through to the basement area. The basement area being a super cool, super curious, but super weird fantasy castle.

Everything about this fish is strange though, I agree. They didn't have to make it invisible. Many other embellishments to flesh out environments aren't rendered like this (the baby cockatrice, for example, appear fairly solid). It seems deliberate to me, but there is plenty of room for all sorts of ideas.

I am left once again wondering how the Remake will tackle this aspect!