Put 9/11 Behind Us

[Mitsuki]

So, there seems to be a movement to 'put 9/11 behind us' by many others, questioning if it's still really necessary for everyone to continue the tradition of the remembrance of 9/11. I just wanted to see what you guys think. Should we or should we not? What's your reasons?

Honestly, I think it's very contradictory to when it first happened because the message in the end is, "We will never forget."

 

[Tielknight]

Nobody will ever forget it, but dwelling on the past will only cause the future to suffer. But to forget the past is to incite it's lessons to be forgot.

The lesson varies form person to person, but basically, the prevention of such a event was horribly fucked. Multiple people knew about it and were either ignored or didn't speak up. Nuff said on that subject.

 

[Bun]

I think what we should be asking more so than 'putting it behind us' is why it actually happened. Terrorist attacks don't sporadically occur when a country is completely innocent; they obviously had a reason (logical to them) behind it in order to make a statement. I know it was a horrible occurrence, and a countless number of people died (though it was no excuse to kill so many), but seriously... am I the only one a tad bit concerned about the fact that two commercial jets were flown into the WTC buildings? Not only that, but another one into a field and another into the Pentagon?

Maybe us American citizens should pull our heads out of our asses, wake up and smell the roses. This happened for a reason no matter how unnecessary it was.

 

[aerocrystal]

"Savage Backward" religion? How so?

 

[Bun]

Yeah, the hijackers were Saudi Arabian university graduates, not some "oppressed arabs" from some hell hole. Saudi Arabia is an incredibly rich country and their people pay almost no taxes and receive free monthly payments from the Saudi government because of all the oil being sold thus mostly living very well off (often more so than the average American citizen). The psychology of the hijackers is more or less complex at best, but we can reason that they fell under a spell "pointlessness" as do many young people who live well off without worries or duties, and after being heavily influenced by their savage backward religion, it's only logical that "becoming heroes through death" brings a kind of romantic purpose.

All I was saying is that it happened and it happened for a reason, no matter what religion it was advocated under, and we should, instead of forget it, try to understand it so that we may come up with a plan (or several) to prevent it from ever happening again.

 

[Contra Fates]

Moderation Notice:

aerocrystal: Please make your posts longer. I realize that post was for a question directed at Katsky, but in the future, please include something more, such as your own opinion on the topic.

Katsky: Make your posts longer as well, and please refrain from using sarcasm or rude remarks. You can get your point across without resorting to crude behavior.

---
To be on topic:

I'm a bit torn on the topic of 9/11. I admit I was one who was rather intrigued by the conspiracy theories surrounding the attack, so my sympathy level for it is a bit lower than it should be. I can't really say that I believe the conspiracy theories, but the lot of the videos certainly did offer up a lot of interesting information. As for myself, on the recent 9/11, I didn't even realize what it was. When I saw it on tv, I mentioned it to a few co-workers, and they all gave a response of 'oh! I forgot today was 9/11!" I think for some, the event is already being forgot, or, at the very least...it's not as fresh in our minds as it used to be.

I believe any travesty in history should be remembered by it's country, because as mentioned earlier...without remembrance, history repeats itself. Although, in some cases, remembering isn't enough. The issue I have against remembering 9/11 is...with most other holidays or 'days to remember,' it was about some war or some bloody struggle, which ended in some sort of victory. There was no glory, and no victory to be associated with 9/11. It was just a tragedy, and we don't really have any holidays associated with pure tragedies. If we did, we should remember the day the Titanic sank, or remember every terrorist attack on our country. It just seems that it's a poor message...to remember a tragedy for no real purpose.

 

[strifehart]

Sure, but how was anything I said crude?

i found it to be rude. you said that islam is a "savage religion". i'd insult you now, but it seems that you have absolutely no capability to understand even the most basic of concepts, making anything i say futile.

however, i will say that the quran has a number of valuable and important moral lessons and values. these terrorists are islamic radicals. as in, they interpret the religious text in an extreme way. you know, there are a lot of people who do it to the bible, too.

and has everyone forgotten about the unibomber? not all terrorists are islamic radicals. *GASP* some of them can even be WHITE!

 

[Gingerbread Lesbian]

Saying that Islamic religion is a 'savage religion' is a pretty ignorant comment. Out of over 1.5 billion Muslims you'd probably find over 96/97% of them don't follow and probably don't believe in the quotes you've taken from the Qur'an and are generally very decent people.

You can't just dismiss what it used to say in the Bible because some random guy installed a 'New Covenant Law' because the fact is, it used to be in the bible nonetheless, whether it is still there or not is irrelevant.


As for 9/11, I'll personally say that 21/7 is the closest we have come and as far as I'm aware, people who had relatives in the 21/7 bombings find it VERY difficult to let it go so 9/11 having a massively bigger death/injury rate it must be near impossible to put it behind you.

 

[Gray Fox]

It's nice how a topic of 9/11 turned into a religious debate.

Anyway, I don't see why we would need to 'put it behind us'. That is like saying to put days like Pearl Harbor behind is, well worse, if I'm correct we lost more people on 9/11 then Pearl Harbor. That would be like saying, get rid of memorial day and put those old wars behind us.

All we are doing is respecting and honoring those who died on that day. I think the deserve that at least.

 

[Bambi]

It's nice how a topic of 9/11 turned into a religious debate.

Anyway, I don't see why we would need to 'put it behind us'. That is like saying to put days like Pearl Harbor behind is, well worse, if I'm correct we lost more people on 9/11 then Pearl Harbor. That would be like saying, get rid of memorial day and put those old wars behind us.

All we are doing is respecting and honoring those who died on that day. I think the deserve that at least.

Eh, sums my feelings on the matter up pretty well tbqh. Why should we put it behind us? It's not like it's an inconieience or anything, it's remembering an atrocity and trying to prevent it happening again.

Or we could just forget about it and wait til the next terrorist attack happens....

 

[Tielknight]

Katsky, Stay on topic and stop bashing others religions in a topic thats meant to talk about a tragic event in History. Any further off topic posts or 1-2 sentence replies will be infracted for.

Anyways, It's all and good that Bushy-Boy wants to find the " masterminds" behind it and whatnot, but cmon, he seriously thinks that sending thousands of troops in to bring em to justice will work? Yes, after that event, many citizens were wishing for revenge, but what is more important? Revenge or Remembrance? Personally, we should focus on making the nation stronger and united. Since this war has started, it's done nothing but hurt the country more and more and deprive many families of their loved ones. It needs to stop. We need to focus on building for a better and safer future, but not to the point where we lose all sense of civil freedom for the sake of security.

(blegh, i talk too much)

 

[aerocrystal]

Please read the Quran.

Please read the Bible. There's plenty of needless violence, incest, and intolerance. Actually, please read almost every religious text that is at least a few hundred years old.

The vast majority of Muslims I have encountered are no more backwards or savage than the vast majority of Christians I have met.

Unless of course, you are claiming that all religions are savage and backward. Which is a whole nother argument.

 

[Stella]

9/11 is a significant event in American history, and I see no reason why we would need to "put it behind us."

I, for one, used to think of America as the safest country in the world. Before 9/11, the thought of someone attacking us seemed absurb. After that awful tragedy occurred though, the way I thought about things completely changed. It opened my eyes and showed me that I had taken everything I had in this country for granted, and that something as awful as terrorists attacking could and would happen.

So I don't think of 9/11 as a day to remember simply because of how many people died. I think it's a day to remember because of how it changed the whole way an entire nation thought and felt. It brought Americans, as well as people all across the world together, which is something I believe deserves to be remembered no matter how many years go by.

 

[Bun]

I, for one, used to think of America as the safest country in the world. Before 9/11, the thought of someone attacking us seemed absurb. After that awful tragedy occurred though, the way I thought about things completely changed. It opened my eyes and showed me that I had taken everything I had in this country for granted, and that something as awful as terrorists attacking could and would happen.

A lot of people thought that, and therein lies some of the problem. To think that we are completely free of the minute possibility of some kind of attack is absurd to ME, but I don't have to live with the fear that it will happen day in and day out. It's best to acknowledge the fact rather than to assume out of ignorance that we are safe because it's simply not true.

And although 9/11 was a tragic day, it's something we should keep in the back of our minds; if not only for the fact that it could happen again (or something of similar proportion).

 

[Dionysos]

Well with the quotes from the Qu'ran you presented, Katsky, one has to remember the context which the Qu'ran was written in. The arab lands were divided into tribes, unorganised, before Muhammad arrived, and people were worshiping all sorts of things. Muhammad decided he wanted to unite the land, and a strong single religion and code was a good way of doing so. He was conducting a religious and military campaign across the arab lands, but eventually conquered and established Islam. The violent elements of the Qu'ran may mostly be connected with its purpose at the time, trying to enforce itself. Most modern Muslims don't use these passages anymore as they have little relevance now. These views are not realy all there is to Islam, the actual beliefs they hold dear to them are relatively peaceful, and no more extreme than the views of Christianity. That's how I've viewed it anyway.

Books like the Qu'ran, while presenting religious views and foundation stones for religion, all have some sort of political or opportunist agenda (the Bible included). So really not all passages can be expected to apply.

Extremists however love these passages, and milk them and twist them for all that they are worth. Most of the time terrorists are angry young men who are angry with the world, and want some sort of religious justification for their actions so that they can be regarded (even if only in like minded twisted minds) as heroes. Also, like said, not all terrorists are Muslim.

About 9/11, I do think it should be remembered. It is a landmark event. It shocked me when it occured and was my first realy terrible experience of viewing on TV/ hearing about a catastrophic tragedy in my lifetime. It made me feel angry. I'm British, but I do think it should be remembered, perhaps not on the same level as rememberance day, but as the day that shocked the world. Even among terrorist attacks it was pretty much a landmark event.

The london bombings really, really angered me. It REALLY affected me, and I did not lose anyone in that incident, have anyone injured that I knew, nor did I have any relatives anywhere near London at the time. But the heart and soul of my country was attacked. I think that event should be remembered in this country because it shocked our country, affected our country, in a way made us a little bit stronger, and come together a little bit more (I say a little bit more because most of the time a chestnut is probably more patriotic to this country than some of it's inhabbitants...).
But.. back on topic, the London Bombings were terrible, but nothing on the scale of 9/11. If I felt so battered by the July attacks in London I can't imagine how Americans were feeling when the airplanes hit the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. That wasn't just a day the Americans stood still though, the whole world did. Everybody was shocked, as far as I recall. It is a peice of world history, and a big peice of world history. It does deserve to be remembered and mourned in my opinion.

 

[Erythritol]

I'm going to ahead and skip reading some posts and just respond to a few things that caught my eye

Katsky: It seems you aren't too familiar with Saudi Arabia or the profile of the hijackers. It is true that Saudi Arabia is a fabulously rich country due to oil and that citizens are afforded the luxury of not paying tax. However, there are great disparities in wealth and privilege. The Saudi Arabian system is very corrupt and basically, the only way to move ahead is to know someone (or bribe someone, I guess). Yes, it is true that the hijackers were not impoverished, but they were far from happy. They were university educated but they were also disillusioned with the corrupt system and disappointed by the lack of opportunities. Obviously this does not excuse what they did, but if one looks at their history, it is easier to understand why they turned to radical Islam as a means of escape from disillusionment and disappointment.

I also want you to understand that Islam is NOT Islamism. They are completely different things. Islam is a religion. Islamism is a radical school of thought that perverts Islam completely. To give just one example: Osama Bin Laden twice issued a fatwa on the United States. Now only an Isliamic scholar may issue a fatwa and Bin Laden is NOT an Islamic scholar. Islamism is more politically motivated than religiously motivated. Islam is not a violent religion. Unfortunately, there are radical groups in the middle east who commit violence in the name of Islam and give it a bad reputation. On the whole, however, Muslims are very peaceful. Please do not make such ignorant statements about Islam.

I do think 9/11 should be remembered, but I think it's turning into a bit of an obsession. On the eleventh, for the entire day, there were just programs about the Twin Towers. It's just becoming a bit of a cult of victimization. Should it be remembered? Yes. Should it be obsessed over? No. It's a little much.

 

[Donald Trump]

Lulz at America being the safest country. I'm not being anti-American but that's just arrogant and completely untrue.
My country is so much safer.
Moving on, I agree with what Eryth said. 9/11 is a tragedy. But so is a whole heap of other stuff. It happened 7 years ago and you people can't let it go. Politicians keep bringing up 9/11 and so do a lot of other people.
It should be remembered, but not constantly brought up so the US can feel like a victim. Which it isn't, it's had a presence in the Middle East since the 1948, and it shamelessly supports Israel.

Meh, I don't think it should be forgotten, but it is time to move on. And focus on the future rather than the past.
Also certain people seem to think that all Radical Islamists are terrorists. Which is bullshit. 99% of them are peaceful people, infact a lot of them are women. We can blame terrorism on Islam because that is wrong, so we blame it on fundamentalists, which is equally as wrong.

 

[Erythritol]

Yeah, and that's why they blew up the Saudi Palace. Oh wait...

No, because that's not who they blame. Just because that's who you believe is to blame, it does not mean that they share your view. It's impossible to fully understand a culture through an ethnocentric viewpoint. Many of their grievances can be traced back to-- so they believe-- imperialism and westernization. As a result, they target the west.

Go on...?

Okay. Many of the hijackers (if not all) were upset at the situation in the middle east (well, who wouldn't be?) The middle east is...well, it's sort of complicated. There are different ways that middle easterners can identify themselves. They can either be nationalist (ie: identify as Saudi Arabians); they can identify as Arabs (or any other ethnic group); they can identify as Muslims. Breaking down that last group, they can also identify as Shiite or Sunni. These men clearly did not believe in nationalism and were upset and disillusioned with the social infrastructure. Now, Islamist groups are not stupid, far from it. They prey on the disappointments and religious aspects of these men. I really believe what they do is a form of brain-washing (well, for some). They tell these disappointed and somewhat aimless men that they can die for a cause and become heroes. Remember that not all of these men are wealthy. For their sacrifice, their families will be compensated and they will die a very honorable death (in their eyes). Faced with such a choice, it's not hard to see why they pick Islamism. In a way, it mirrors the gangs in bad parts of cities. There are these kids who have faced horrible hardships all their lives and believe that they are going nowhere, so they join a gang because it's the easiest thing to do. It gives them some sort of direction.

Yeah, Islamism is political implementation of the Quran.

No. It is not. This is an example of your ignorance of the middle east. Here, this is copied off wiki, because I'm lazy:

Islamism (Islam+ism; Arabic: al-'islāmiyya) is a set of ideologies holding that Islam is not only a religion but also a political system; that modern Islam must return to the roots of its religion, and Muslims must unite politically

There is a large difference between Islamism and Islam. Islamism is very politically motivated. You think that the Taliban just wants everyone to be a good Muslim? Hell no! You don't need to take over an entire country to do that, now do you? I was talking to a guy from Afghanistan who was infuriated that some people believe that the Taliban represents Islam. They do not. Radical Islamists organizations are NOT representative of Islam.

Oh okay, because you know, I thought Islam was already perverted when I quoted the Quran with those random excerpts.

Oh please. I could go through the Bible and do the same thing. Every religion has violent parts in it. You know why? They were all written in relatively violent and tumultuous times. If you actually knew Islam, you'd understand that there are five very important pillars in Islam to which every good Muslim adheres. These five pillars are: worshipping no other god, ritual prayer, charity, fasting during Ramadan, and a pilgrimage to Mecca. Yeah. Real violent.

Nah, only every Muslim country has draconian laws and violent cruel law enforcement, but it's not because they're Muslim. Oh and there's these awesome random quotes from the Quran again.

Oops, there we go with the ethnocentricism again. Not every country is America or Australia. I'm sorry; that's not how the world works. You find European laws and government much more pleasing because it follows your beliefs and your culture. That's natural. Do some middle eastern countries have problems? Yes, they do. That much is obvious. However, it is unfair to blame that on Islam. And dear god, I hope you do not refer to Saddam Hussein, because he was a Ba'ath party member, and they are secular. That means his rule was nationalist and had nothing to do with Islam or Islamism. So that shoots down that theory of yours. You want to know the real issue in the middle east? It's not Islam. It's the fact that European powers ever so kindly invaded the middle east in the 1800s and played the imperialists, dividing the middle east into false borders (what we see today) and putting ethnic groups that do not necessarily get along together. As a result, there were power grabs and oppressing different ethnic or religious groups for whatever reason. There was also the failure of westernization in many of the middle eastern countries that led to disillusion and movements towards either pan-Arabism or Islamism. There were, of course, secular nationalist movements-- like the Ba'ath party in Iraq. However, I can tell you right now that Islam is not the problem. If I were to point fingers, I'd primarily point at western Europe and their brilliant border drawing skills.

Yeah, peaceful people. Paris riots, London bombings, 9/11, Madrid, Bali, the constant Shia/Sunni violence in Iraq, the Mujahideen, etc... Oh, and the 10,000 + other terrorist attacks carried out around the world since 9/11. I mean let's look at just the last few days-

Okay, clearly you like to make broad and racist generalizations without truly comprehending the situation. And that breeds ignorance. Ignorance is not a good thing.

Paris riots: that was a race and poverty issue. And quite frankly, they aren't well treated in Paris. They are second class citizens, constantly harassed by the police, and looked down upon. I've seen it first-hand. That was not a matter of religion, but a matter of second-class citizens trying to riot against the unfair treatment at the hands of the French.

All the terrorist attacks you mentioned: They are NOT Islam-related. They are radical Islamist groups. Until you understand the distinction, you don't quite know what you're talking about. Islamism is politically motivated and hides behind the shroud of religion. Remember the very important five pillars I mentioned? Do you think any of these groups are very charitable? Yeah, didn't think so. Okay, since you want to use quotes, I'll use some too.

"Those who are Jews, and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day is good, they shall have their reward from their Lord" (II:62).

"You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion." (CIX: 6)

This is NOT a religion thing. You think they hate us because it says so in the Koran? No! You think they hate Israel because they're Jewish? No! It's political. But because Islam is such an essential part of the Arab world and is so universal in the Islamic world, it is a good appeal to people. Why? Because then they can promise martyrdom and a glorious death and a wonderful heaven. Promising this to people who are poor or directionless or disillusioned is VERY appealing.

TRULY this is a religion of peace.

I think I've made my point.

 

[Dionysos]

Of coarse you could. But I challenge you to find violent and cruel teachings in the New Testament.

Matthew 10: 34-36
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword."

While not realy always calling for complete massacre and destruction, when one considers the context of the authors of the Bible you can understand. Christianity started as a humble poor mans religion, it was not the religion of empires and war until several hundred years later under Constantine, and from then on it was throughout the middle ages. Had the New Testament been written in these times I am pretty sure there will be more violent quotes to pull from it. The Qu'ran was written in times of military conquest and change, like I and many others have said above.

I do know the five pillars. But to Muslims the Quran is the word of God, not just the inspired word of God as is the Bible to Jews and Christians. It was written by God/Allah himself. While Christians and Jews are able to debate the passages of the Bible/Talmud/etc... Muslims are forbidden by Islamic law to debate the word of God. The one God they believe in surely is a sick asshole.

It was written by the followers of Muhammad after he had a conversation with Allah, and was told from Allah's own mouth. And that God that is "sick" is the same God, just in another one of his interpretations. It is still Yahweh. Islam just holds that the Koran is the true word of God, or Allah, that was presented to Muhammad in unbroken form from his own mouth... But Muhammad saw the lands he was living in, he wanted to unite them, create a large military force. So yes he probably added a hint more of violence to his recitation to help enforce this new power he was to create. Muhammad did to the Arab lands with Islam what took Christianity a very long time indeed. It was a very very fast spread.

God must have been really pissed at something when he wrote the beautiful Quran.

At the end of the day God was always pissed at something. It was his role. To put us in order.

So, you'll defend a multiracial western society, but when it comes to non-caucasian societies, it's totally cool to be ethno-separatist.

It's like putting a cat and a mouse in the same room. They didn't get along before hand, and we a little bit irrational putting them together before they sorted their differences.

They segregate themselves. They refuse to speak French and integrate into French society, in fact they should be booted out, nevermind be "treated as second class citizens".

I don't know alot about the situation in France, but I'm pretty sure attitude like that is part of what angers them.

Sadly I think this is going off topic again. While religion is connected to the 9/11 attacks this is not of primary debate. I do think 9/11 should be remembered, but as Eryth said I think people can obssess over it far too much. Not only do they think about it all the time, they create conspiracy theories, get too scared, hate muslims, and it's gone a bit too far on that road.

 

[Mitsuki]

...This is going completely off-topic, guys. Please stick to the topic at hand or posts will be deleted and infractions will be issued. Final warning.