Sephiroth's Role

[Aralith]

The game FFVII is one of the most intricately designed FF's and it has one of the best (and consequentially most controversial) plot of any game I know. Though many aspects of the game have been debated quite a bit, by far the one that gets the most heat is:

Was it Jenova or Sephiroth in control?

I assert that it was Sephiroth. I say this not because I'm just some fanboy who listens to everything the UOG says. I do have evidence to back this up. First, in Shinra HQ, Jenova does not have a head and is therefore rendered immobile. At least, she isn't able to move on her own. It is Sephiroth's will that causes her to move around. Now, one arguement I've heard against this is that the Masamune blade Sephiroth carries with him can only be wielded by him, not only that but where could it possibly have come from.

Well, the hole with that arguement, is that Jenova probably took a small part of herself and altered her appearance. Or should I say Sephiroth made her to do this to make it look like it was him. We know from the game that Jenova has the ability to shapeshift, so this is a pretty valid assertion. The other hole is that if that is the real Masamune blade, then who was wielding it? Sephiroth's real body is being held in the Northern Crater in a Lifestream crystal.
Another arguement commonly used against my theory is that Sephiroth did not recognize Cloud at all on the boat to Junon. Let's not forget though, that this is Sephiroth we're talking about. The first time that you enter Northern Crater, Sephiroth tells Cloud the "truth" about his creation. Of course, we all find out that this is a lie later on in the game. Well, a half-lie. Truth and lies mixed. Generally, yes, someone will recognize the person that tried to kill them, but not if they're purposely trying to decieve that person. Cloud still thinks Sephiroth is dead and Sephiroth wants him to be unsure of what happened that day in Nibelheim to make it easier for him to control Cloud.

Which brings me to my next point. Jenova's only true instinct is destroy. This pretty much ix-nays her from being a sentient life-form. Though cunning in the way she can cause destruction, still all just based on instinct. She would have no reason to take the form of a person who everyone, especially Cloud, believes to be dead. While it's true that Cloud does carry Jenova cells within him, he has no other personal connection to Jenova. Sephiroth, on the other hand, floated around in the Lifestream for a few years with her head. It is stated in the game (can't remember where, sorry) that Sephiroth floated around in the Lifestream gathering the knowledge and power of the Ancients. Wouldn't it also make sense that he gathered the knowledge and power of Jenova? Had Jenova been in control, she would have tried to appear to the party as someone that they could trust, not a figure that would plant seeds of doubt in Cloud's head.

The connection between Aerith and Sephiroth brings up some interesting information. Sephiroth believes himself to be an Ancient because Professor Gast wrongly identified Jenova as an Ancient. Also, Sephiroth thinks that he is the son of Jenova (to an extent he is, but he has no direct relation to her). I assert that the death of Aerith was not just to try and stop Holy from being summoned, but I think it was kind of a pride thing for Sephiroth. I belive (and this is my own personal theory; it is supported by almost no in-game facts, just a lot of experience with the human psyche) that Sephiroth saw Aerith as a someone trying to take away his glory of leading "Mother" to the Promised Land. He couldn't let Aerith take that away from him.

Like I mentioned before, Cloud has no personal relation to Jenova, and so it is unlikely that she would be able to use him as a puppet. We're pretty sure that Sephiroth was the human being with the highest concentration of Jenova cells present in him to ever exist. Since Sephiroth was a sentient being and Jenova wasn't, his will to live and not just survive would be much stronger than hers. He desperately wants to break out of the mako crystal he is in, and until Jenova is reawakened, this cannot happen.

I think that when Cloud came within close proximity to Jenova in Shinra HQ, that it somehow reactivated her cells for Sephiroth to control again. This is also when Cloud starts to fall under the control of Sephiroth some. I theorize that it was like a small-scale Jenova Reunion, that reactivated the cells in both of them. Because Sephiroth has such a high concentration of Jenova cells within him, he can manipulate others that carry Jenova cells to do what he wants. Well, obviously the largest concentration of these cells would be in Jenova herself, so that's who he chose to control.

These are the arguements I have for why it was Sephiroth in control and not Jenova. And I do want to take this time to point out that the UOG also says this. Please, post your own theories, and if you have any substantial evidence that would refute mine, I'd like to hear it.

 

[Davey Gaga]

First, in Shinra HQ, Jenova does not have a head and is therefore rendered immobile. At least, she isn't able to move on her own. It is Sephiroth's will that causes her to move around. Now, one arguement I've heard against this is that the Masamune blade Sephiroth carries with him can only be wielded by him, not only that but where could it possibly have come from.

Well, we do believe that Tifa says that only Sephiroth can weild that sword, but it could be an exaggeration on her part. It's not a magic sword that was designed for him, just a sword he used frequently and skillfully.

Well, the hole with that arguement, is that Jenova probably took a small part of herself and altered her appearance. Or should I say Sephiroth made her to do this to make it look like it was him. We know from the game that Jenova has the ability to shapeshift, so this is a pretty valid assertion. The other hole is that if that is the real Masamune blade, then who was wielding it? Sephiroth's real body is being held in the Northern Crater in a Lifestream crystal.

The Sephiroth that appears in Midgar, next to the Midgar Zolom, the Shin-Ra ship, Nibelheim Basement, Temple of the Ancients, City of the Ancients and the Northern Crater are all clones. They are clones of the real Sephiroth, as Hojo stated when he saw his son in the lifestream "crystal". So, technically, a clone of Sephiroth could weild the sword of Sephiroth, correct?

Another arguement commonly used against my theory is that Sephiroth did not recognize Cloud at all on the boat to Junon. Let's not forget though, that this is Sephiroth we're talking about. The first time that you enter Northern Crater, Sephiroth tells Cloud the "truth" about his creation. Of course, we all find out that this is a lie later on in the game. Well, a half-lie. Truth and lies mixed. Generally, yes, someone will recognize the person that tried to kill them, but not if they're purposely trying to decieve that person. Cloud still thinks Sephiroth is dead and Sephiroth wants him to be unsure of what happened that day in Nibelheim to make it easier for him to control Cloud.

He did not lie, nor did he have any reason to lie. If you watched the flashbacks when Cloud and Tifa fell into the Lifestream, you would know that it truly wasn't Cloud in the picture, it wasn't Cloud who spoke to Tifa. Cloud was a Soldier of the Shin-Ra, not a member of SOLDIER itself. The reason Sephiroth says that Cloud was not present, was because he did not associate himself with the inferior members of the Shin-Ra, thus, not knowing that Cloud was in that blue uniform. He didn't lie, just didn't KNOW the entire truth.

Which brings me to my next point. Jenova's only true instinct is destroy. This pretty much ix-nays her from being a sentient life-form. Though cunning in the way she can cause destruction, still all just based on instinct. She would have no reason to take the form of a person who everyone, especially Cloud, believes to be dead. While it's true that Cloud does carry Jenova cells within him, he has no other personal connection to Jenova. Sephiroth, on the other hand, floated around in the Lifestream for a few years with her head. It is stated in the game (can't remember where, sorry) that Sephiroth floated around in the Lifestream gathering the knowledge and power of the Ancients. Wouldn't it also make sense that he gathered the knowledge and power of Jenova? Had Jenova been in control, she would have tried to appear to the party as someone that they could trust, not a figure that would plant seeds of doubt in Cloud's head.

Cloud does have a personal connection with Jenova, this being the Jenova Cells injected into him when he was at Shin-Ra. IF Jenova was in control, then it make sense to convey her deceit to Cloud as Sephiroth, his nightmare, his ultimate and eternal rival.

The connection between Aerith and Sephiroth brings up some interesting information. Sephiroth believes himself to be an Ancient because Professor Gast wrongly identified Jenova as an Ancient. Also, Sephiroth thinks that he is the son of Jenova (to an extent he is, but he has no direct relation to her). I assert that the death of Aerith was not just to try and stop Holy from being summoned, but I think it was kind of a pride thing for Sephiroth. I belive (and this is my own personal theory; it is supported by almost no in-game facts, just a lot of experience with the human psyche) that Sephiroth saw Aerith as a someone trying to take away his glory of leading "Mother" to the Promised Land. He couldn't let Aerith take that away from him.

There is a confusion when people say Sephiroth is an Ancient. He does state in the game, in the Nibelheim basement (Cloud's dream) that he read up on Jenova, and referred to her as "The Calamity from the Skies", just as Ifalna statedm as did Marlene (in AC). He does not believe himself to be an Ancient, but the professors, Gast and Hojo, do. Hojo discovers he is not towards the middle of the game.

Like I mentioned before, Cloud has no personal relation to Jenova, and so it is unlikely that she would be able to use him as a puppet. We're pretty sure that Sephiroth was the human being with the highest concentration of Jenova cells present in him to ever exist. Since Sephiroth was a sentient being and Jenova wasn't, his will to live and not just survive would be much stronger than hers. He desperately wants to break out of the mako crystal he is in, and until Jenova is reawakened, this cannot happen.

We don't know that Sephiroth was injected with a higher concentration of JC's. I theorise that when he was in Lucrecia's womb, he was injected, grew, then was born. When a baby dies, their cells rapidly divide by mitosis. I believe that the Jenova cells rapidly divided also. The reason other SOLDIERS are not as powerful, is because they were given the cells later in life, when Mitosis slows down, thus, less JC's.

Jenova awakens in the Shin-Ra building, but she is missing parts of her body.

Everything else, I agree with. You are completely right in saying Sephiroth was in control, but some points are a little off With these exceptions, you have a compelling argument, well done.

 

[Gaaramaster]

Sephiroth is in control. jenova was being controled by him. Like a puppet.

 

[aeris#1fan]

whos in control?

while i basically agree with every thing Arilith said one question bothers me........How come Hojo Controlled Sephiroth then.......he knew everything he was gonna do in advance...? Any normal person would have stopped Sephiroth at that point but not Hojo.......he was helping Sephiroth lol........other than that yes Sephiroth was in control of Jenova as Jenova was already dead and brought back to life by supperoth so yes supperoth was in control

 

[Davey Gaga]

Hojo, in no way, controlled nor helped Sephiroth. He attempted to give Mako energy to him at the Northern Crater, but you stop him in time. Did you play the game at all? Or did you just not pay attention where Sephiroth was concerned?

 

[aeris#1fan]

hojo in no way.......

Hojo, in no way, controlled nor helped Sephiroth. He attempted to give Mako energy to him at the Northern Crater, but you stop him in time. Did you play the game at all? Or did you just not pay attention where Sephiroth was concerned?

watch the game next time you play through it..........who created sephiroth? who injected his mother with that syrum and who was watching his every move......professor Gast was.......which was hojos hero......and through this he learned to control the stuff that made Supperoth.......he did not have much control on him but he knew everything he was doing.....look closely next time you play.......unless you never made it that far

 

[Gaaramaster]

wats with all the dots? and that wasn't helping nor controling Sephiroth.

 

[Davey Gaga]

watch the game next time you play through it..........who created sephiroth? who injected his mother with that syrum and who was watching his every move......professor Gast was.......which was hojos hero......and through this he learned to control the stuff that made Supperoth.......he did not have much control on him but he knew everything he was doing.....look closely next time you play.......unless you never made it that far

I take offense to that. I credit myself for my knowledge on Sephiroth. You seem to have a problem with perceiving what goes on at certain times in the game. Let me elaborate on some things for you.

Lucrecia and Hojo had sex and a baby, which they decided to call Sephiroth, started to grow in her womb. Hojo was a mad scientist, whether Lucrecia knew of that, we do not know. However, this was around the time of when Ifalna and Professor Gast fell in love and Ifalna fell pregnant with the girl we know as Aeris. Ifalna spoke to Gast about Jenova, the Calamity from the Skies.

Hojo worked for the Shin-Ra and the Shin-Ra took Jenova and kept her in incubation. Hojo took some of her cells, thinking she was an ancient, and injected them into the womb of Lucrecia, attempting to produce another Ancient.

This is all that you need to know about how Sephiroth was made. He was not controlled, but was created, by Hojo. After birth, Hojo did nothing to control Sephiroth. NOTHING.

Secondly, Hojo did not look up to Gast, he despised him. This is partly the reason for having him killed

You have contradicted yourself: you say Hojo had complete control over Sephiroth. Immediately after in your post, you state he did not have control over him, he merely knew what he was doing. Hojo played no part in the Sephiroth saga between his birth and his re-discovery.

Aeris, I have completed FFVII on numerous occasion. I have watched AC on countless nights, being a die-hard fan. I suggest you watch the movie and/or play the game again. Maybe you have lack of understanding, lack of knowledge, lack of perception or maybe all three? In any case, it is not I who has mis-understood anything, nor missed anything out. I recommed gathering all information before making a post like yours above.

 

[Gaaramaster]

in other words, don't speak if you don't know what you saying.

 

[Davey Gaga]

Precisley

 

[Aralith]

watch the game next time you play through it..........who created sephiroth? who injected his mother with that syrum and who was watching his every move......professor Gast was.......which was hojos hero......and through this he learned to control the stuff that made Supperoth.......he did not have much control on him but he knew everything he was doing.....look closely next time you play.......unless you never made it that far

Gast had nothing to do with the creation of Sephiroth. Perhaps you didn't understand what happened in the game, but the line where Hojo called Sephiroth his son at the Sister Ray cannon in Midgar should have been a clue that Gast did nothing to help "create" Sephiroth. Perhaps you should gather your facts before posting something like this.

Now, to answer to some of the points that The Sephiroth Gene brought up in his first post:

1. I too theorized that Sephiroth had the same amount of Jenova Cells implanted in him, and believe, like you, that they grew as he was a child. I didn't really explain that that's why I thought he had a higher concentration of them present, but it is indeed why.

2. I was under the impression that the Sephiroth we saw before seeing him in the Lifestream crystal was Jenova, not clones of him. Most of the clones can still be found in Nibelheim, and the line that Cloud says in North Cave the first time: "It was Jenova. It was always Jenova," and then Tifa replies: "You mean this whole time, it wasn't Sephiroth we've been chasing." Something like that. I don't remember the exact quotes, but that's about how it went. This would seem to indicate that they had been chasing Jenova, not clones of Sephiroth.

3. You are correct. Cloud wasn't the one that spoke to Tifa, or appeared in the picture. That was Zach. However, it was still Cloud that killed Sephiroth. Remember when Tifa and Cloud fell into the lifestream in Mideel and we explored Cloud's true memories? Well, there we learned that what actually happened at Nibelheim was that Cloud took up Zach's sword after Sephiroth had knocked him unconscious, pulled off his helmet (hood?) and challenged Sephiroth. Sephiroth stuck his Masmune into him, but Cloud lifted up Sephiroth from the other end and threw him into the Lifestream at the core of the reactor. During this whole time, Sephiroth could clearly see Cloud's face, and I don't think that he would have forgotten him, which leads me to believe that when Sephiroth was controlling Jenova (as I hopefully made clear in my second point) that he purposely "didn't recognize" Cloud.

 

[Gaaramaster]

Cloud never killed Sephiroth though. Say defeated if nothing else.

 

[Davey Gaga]

Gast had nothing to do with the creation of Sephiroth. Perhaps you didn't understand what happened in the game, but the line where Hojo called Sephiroth his son at the Sister Ray cannon in Midgar should have been a clue that Gast did nothing to help "create" Sephiroth. Perhaps you should gather your facts before posting something like this.

Thank you for repeating me

2. I was under the impression that the Sephiroth we saw before seeing him in the Lifestream crystal was Jenova, not clones of him. Most of the clones can still be found in Nibelheim, and the line that Cloud says in North Cave the first time: "It was Jenova. It was always Jenova," and then Tifa replies: "You mean this whole time, it wasn't Sephiroth we've been chasing." Something like that. I don't remember the exact quotes, but that's about how it went. This would seem to indicate that they had been chasing Jenova, not clones of Sephiroth.

This is partly true, but partly untrue. We know Hojo created clones of Sephiroth and Cloud was a failed experiment. (For the following, please note that I have not read this UOG and base everything on the game and theory). Some of those clones advanced further than others, while some we saw in the game as those in black capes, mumbling about "Reunion". The Sephiroth we saw until the end of the game was a clone, each time. When we fight Jenova, it is actually parts of Jenova left behind by Sephiroth. Like her arm, or her leg With those quotes, I believe it was a mis-interperetation on Clouds side, meaning he did not realise Sephiroth was still alive and believed the real him dead, this believing Jenova was in control.

3. During this whole time, Sephiroth could clearly see Cloud's face, and I don't think that he would have forgotten him, which leads me to believe that when Sephiroth was controlling Jenova (as I hopefully made clear in my second point) that he purposely "didn't recognize" Cloud.

Then maybe Sephiroth had the deluded memories? Or maybe it was the CLONES with the deluded memories?

 

[aeris#1fan]

you have to realize sephiroth Gene that i was only kidding about the above statement as we have all finished this game by now....well m aybe not all of us but 99 percent of us have finished it so be light hearted it was a joke

 

[Gaaramaster]

Finished wat?

 

[raidersJD]

Sephiroth was always in control because he knew what he was capable of the whole time.

 

[Davey Gaga]

you have to realize sephiroth Gene that i was only kidding about the above statement as we have all finished this game by now....well m aybe not all of us but 99 percent of us have finished it so be light hearted it was a joke

How can I take it as a joke when you evidently know nothing of the matter at hand?