Should Mentally Retarded People Be Allowed To Vote?

[Reality.Fantasy]

I said no. Even though they have the right to thanks to the Constitution, the fate of a country should not be partially decided by those who can't make rational decisions. As said earlier, an aptitude test could be instated, but that might drive away mentally sound people who are just too lazy to take a test.

But then again, if people are too lazy to take a test of intelligence, then they probably shouldn't be voting anyway.

 

[Soul Saver]

Agreed. This will probably never happen because of p******** c**********, sadly.

 

[Nalaar]

Nalaars Thread Revival: Edition 4

Alright so...with all my working faculties, as a civilian...I am somehow capable of walking up to a box with a listing of names which allegedly decides my future and not muster the will to inquire of how said box works?

I say if a person with "documented" nonprogressive thinking capabilities has enough understanding to be curious about the inner-workings of the box...they are indeed sound in mind enough to ask, one can arrive in full confidence at the conclusion upon receiving the answer they would allow the self-proclaimed whole and sane individual in line infront of them to take their place and play with the screen.

 

[Sir Kenneth]

I say yes they should. I think it is important that the mentally handicapped are integrated into our society to as large an extent as possible, and that includes voting. I have an uncle who was without oxygen for a while during his birth, and as a result, his brain hasn't really developed properly. He lives in a houseshare for mentally challenged people. They go to sporting events with their caretakers, they work monday to friday in a sheltered workshop, and during the elections they talk politics and go voting. Sure listening to them talk politics can be amusing at times, but I've often heard "mentally sound" people utter opinions that were even more laughable

 

[Vladislak]

I think they should have just as much of a chance to vote as anyone else.

If you honestly think that most people with mental disabilities are unfit to vote, then I pity you.

There are plenty of non-mentally retarded people out there that have the intelligence of dirt and nobody has an issue with them voting.

Also, making the assumption that MR people are more easily manipulated by others into doing what they want them to do, then I don't think you understand MR people in general.
If you think being MR means your less intelligent than other people, then you know even less about being MR.


There's such a wide variety of mental illnesses (as well as differing severity's within each mental illnesses) that broad generalizations like that are just stupid. Some people here (not all, but some) speak of mental illness as if there's only one type and that they should all be treated the same.

Look at people with savant syndrome, most have mental disorders, but I'd be willing to bet that any one of them is smarter than ten or twenty of the people on these forums. They're just completely brilliant beyond reason.

I personally know people with mild to severe mental disabilities, they're usually no dumber than ordinary people. They're often only limited in minor areas that have no relation to whether they could make a competent voting decision.

It's true that there are some rarer instances in which a person's mental disabilities are just too severe for them to live a normal life, but compared to the number of people with disabilities that can live perfectly normal lives they're practically non-existent.
The only reason severe cases seem more frequent is because the other cases aren't severe enough to draw attention to them so nobody hears of them.
Most people with mental disabilities either aren't really affected by it or can just take daily medication to take care of 99% of the symptoms.


Chances are you personally know quite a few people with mental disabilities, whether they know they have it or not.


Personally I think everyone should be evaluated before they are allowed to vote, there are plenty of people with mental disabilities that are more fit to vote than some people who don't have mental disabilities. They should be just as much of a concern.



Personally, I don't like our system of government in the first place. I'm still not convinced a democracy system is stable enough to support an entire nation. But that's just me.

 

[Big Casino]

Hmmmmmm i see little point in someone making a decision on something they cant understand and for that reason I see no benefit from allowing severely retarded people being allowed to vote.
However the same can be said for a large majority of 'normal' people who do vote, they vote without really knowing exactly what theyre optioning for. Exactly why i never vote come election time.
Children under the age of 18 are not deemed fit enough to vote...it would seem silly to allow mentally handicapped people the right to do what a 17 year old cant.
Although on another note i believe almost everyone deserves the right to have their say even if their unable of comprehending exactly what theyre doing.
Im neutral on the subject to be honest. Im not overly bothered either way but if i was given the choice to pass the law, i would say yes, allow them to vote.

 

[Flagg]

There is a reason that mentally retarded people are not allowed in the army or the emergency services, because all of that requires able bodied and minded people. So I would say no, they shouldn't be allowed to vote for the same reasons.

But democracy is such a misnomer, it doesnt exist and is a paradox. True freedom is anarchy. If we truly lived in a purely democratic society, we'd be letting 5 year olds vote.

 

[Sir Kenneth]

Personally I think everyone should be evaluated before they are allowed to vote, there are plenty of people with mental disabilities that are more fit to vote than some people who don't have mental disabilities. They should be just as much of a concern.

Now that's a slippery slope if I ever saw one. I know this has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread before, but I find it a little bit scary to be honest. What would determine whether or not you should be allowed to vote? I suppose you could make people take a test as to determine their understanding of the mechanics and workings of the political system, but to what extent should they be able to understand that to be allowed to vote? It doesn't take much imagination to imagine a scenario where the party currently in power would alter such a test so that a certain demographic who were more likely to vote for an opposing party, would have a hard time being allowed to vote.

 

[Vladislak]

Now that's a slippery slope if I ever saw one. I know this has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread before, but I find it a little bit scary to be honest. What would determine whether or not you should be allowed to vote? I suppose you could make people take a test as to determine their understanding of the mechanics and workings of the political system, but to what extent should they be able to understand that to be allowed to vote? It doesn't take much imagination to imagine a scenario where the party currently in power would alter such a test so that a certain demographic who were more likely to vote for an opposing party, would have a hard time being allowed to vote.

Which is one of the reasons I said that I don't like our system of government as well.


But truly, would we not already be on that slippery rope by denying mentally retarded people the right to vote? Technically speaking that's one group restricting another group from voting by saying "you don't meet the prerequisites for voting". That would also be creating a massive power imbalance.

And who's to say what mental illness is severe enough to require restriction? A vote by the common people?
What about those will mental illness? Do they get a say in this vote? And even if they do, they're likely to be a minority, so simply because there are less of them they could easily lose out on the vote.

It's things like this that make other systems of government look so much more reliable.
Don't get me wrong, Democracy is great... On a small scale, I'm all for everybody getting their say in what happens. But I find it a tad bit impractical on a nation-wide scale.
But I digress, that's not the topic at hand.

 

[Sir Kenneth]

Which is one of the reasons I said that I don't like our system of government as well.


But truly, would we not already be on that slippery rope by denying mentally retarded people the right to vote? Technically speaking that's one group restricting another group from voting by saying "you don't meet the prerequisites for voting". That would also be creating a massive power imbalance.

And who's to say what mental illness is severe enough to require restriction? A vote by the common people?
What about those will mental illness? Do they get a say in this vote? And even if they do, they're likely to be a minority, so simply because there are less of them they could easily lose out on the vote.

It's things like this that make other systems of government look so much more reliable.
Don't get me wrong, Democracy is great... On a small scale, I'm all for everybody getting their say in what happens. But I find it a tad bit impractical on a nation-wide scale.
But I digress, that's not the topic at hand.

I agree 110%. Countries that do not allow the mentally handicapped to vote are on a slippery slope. As far as modern democracy goes, I agree that it's a faulty system of government which is more about populism than working for longterm improvements, but as you said, that's a whole other discussion.

 

[Shu]

In short I will say I'm a little prejudice towards mentally handicapped (downs) people. There really isn't such a thing as being too handicapped, and not to handicapped when it comes to the brain. Here's what I want to bring into a light. It would be liking giving someone the rights to vote who is chemically unstable to say the least. For the majority most mentally handicapped people are lead around almost on a leash and have really hard amounts of time adjusting to their surroundings. There are some people who are OCD because of their mental condition as well. If you choose to try to bend their tradition, it is very possible for one to lose their top.

I'm not saying that it is impossible for someone of this caliber to think and make rational decisions, but they more often times than not needing a guiding hand in whatever they decide. Some might be particularly good in a certain skill, but that doesn't make it right to make a vote.

I say No, and this is one of the few times you will get a No from me.

 

[Sir Kenneth]

In short I will say I'm a little prejudice towards mentally handicapped (downs) people. There really isn't such a thing as being too handicapped, and not to handicapped when it comes to the brain. Here's what I want to bring into a light. It would be liking giving someone the rights to vote who is chemically unstable to say the least. For the majority most mentally handicapped people are lead around almost on a leash and have really hard amounts of time adjusting to their surroundings. There are some people who are OCD because of their mental condition as well. If you choose to try to bend their tradition, it is very possible for one to lose their top.

I'm not saying that it is impossible for someone of this caliber to think and make rational decisions, but they more often times than not needing a guiding hand in whatever they decide. Some might be particularly good in a certain skill, but that doesn't make it right to make a vote.

I say No, and this is one of the few times you will get a No from me.

I don't really think the important question here is whether or not they are capable of making a rational decision, or it shouldn't be atleast. I'd claim that in a lot of cases rationality is not even part of the decision making when voting, so rational thought shouldn't necesarily be a requirement. Let's use the American political system as an example here: is it rational to vote for an independent candidate during the Presidental election? Or even vote for a democratic candidate in a predominantly Republican state such as Texas? Your vote is likely not going to mean anything if you do. Was it rationality that lead the American public to be concerned about whether Barack Obama was muslim? Probably not. When people vote there are so many factors in play that have nothing to do with rationality at all. Physical appearance, religion, family life, and values of the candidate often play as important a part as the candidate's actual policies. Is it rational to pick the charismatic good looking candidate over another less physically gifted candidate? No it isn't, but it happens all the time. So when mentally sound people make political decisions all the time where the rationality plays a relatively small part in the decision making, I don't think that's valid reason exclude the mentally handicapped from the process of voting.

What's important here is whether or not the handicapped should be allowed to participate in society or if we should just dehumanize them further and isolate them from the decision making.

 

[Shu]

Well I didn't say exclude a mentally handicap person from participating altogether, but I did say that more often times than not most of their "logical" decisions are often times the decisions of others. So I think it would be unfair for a handicap person to vote, if in reality it is someone elses vote. Someone could easily stack the votes with mentally handicap people due to the fact that they said, "Vote for the person and you will get to go bowling tonight."

It's very harsh to be unbias like this, and may not sound politically correct. I support mentally handicap people through and through. I don't exactly think their abnormalities (in which we consider) are such a bad thing when it comes to society. I mean I know some people who wish their handicap brother or sister was never born, because they believe they are brainless and trapped in a world of misunderstanding. Whether it be autism or down syndrome, they feel as if it were cruel to be born this way. Honestly with my experience of helping out at New Hope elementary in Nashville, TN and also helping out with the Special Olympics near Vanderbilt, I found out these people are normal human beings when it comes to interacting with one another. There are some really awesome people who are mentally handicap. Their determinination in sports and everything they do is more extreme than any pro athlete out there.

The question though at hand is whether or not they can vote though. I still say No.

 

[blakstang98]

Well, I'm gonna comment now on this issue. First off, the wording for the title is poor. I don't like to see or hear the word "retarded", it's like calling a gay person a "faggot". Maybe something like mentally impaired would be better terminology. I suppose I should be a little more thick-skinned about the word, but having a multi-handicapped sister be called "retarded" is something that doesn't sit well with me.

Even though our country doesn't show this much these days, especially now, it is a free country. What makes a person who's mentally impaired less able to make rational decisions when voting on elections? Sure, their general intellect may not be as high as the average person, but since when was the average person making the most rational choice? The "smart" people of our country failed during the past election, but because they're the "smart" people, we believe them. The major issue with elections now is that people over-analyze 1 or 2 very distinct issues and dwell on them instead of looking at the big picture. Maybe a little more "less intelligent" thinking is what we need to "balance" our country and actually make the country run like a well-oiled machine. I wish more people could think on a more common-sense/realistic level.

Long story short, yes, the mentally impaired should be able to vote. Just because they have slightly less intellect, doesn't disqualify them as voters. Didn't mean to get political either, but it's a sensitive topic to me, as is the mentally impaired, so sorry if my response is a little blunt and a little brash.

 

[Vladislak]

Well I didn't say exclude a mentally handicap person from participating altogether, but I did say that more often times than not most of their "logical" decisions are often times the decisions of others. So I think it would be unfair for a handicap person to vote, if in reality it is someone elses vote. Someone could easily stack the votes with mentally handicap people due to the fact that they said, "Vote for the person and you will get to go bowling tonight."

It's very harsh to be unbias like this, and may not sound politically correct. I support mentally handicap people through and through. I don't exactly think their abnormalities (in which we consider) are such a bad thing when it comes to society. I mean I know some people who wish their handicap brother or sister was never born, because they believe they are brainless and trapped in a world of misunderstanding. Whether it be autism or down syndrome, they feel as if it were cruel to be born this way. Honestly with my experience of helping out at New Hope elementary in Nashville, TN and also helping out with the Special Olympics near Vanderbilt, I found out these people are normal human beings when it comes to interacting with one another. There are some really awesome people who are mentally handicap. Their determinination in sports and everything they do is more extreme than any pro athlete out there.

The question though at hand is whether or not they can vote though. I still say No.

I wasn't going to say anything about it, but I feel that I must stand up for some people, including myself. In short, I have very mild OCD.
And yet simply by existing the way I do I defy your arguments.

A helping hand in everything I do? Hardly, in fact I prefer to do things completely on my own. I've excelled in getting things done without help, and I'm quite proud of my accomplishments. I managed to secure a scholarship to a private school that provides over $40,000 in cash, if I recall correctly, less than ten students in the nation have the scholarship at any given time. I needed no helping hand for that.

If your argument is purely based on whether I can make independent decisions for myself, what do you think I'm doing here? I frequent this section of the forum more than the others to get my voice heard, not someone else's voice, my voice. I enjoy debating moral and philosophical issues, and there are a great deal of topics that I feel very strongly about despite people around me trying to persuade me otherwise.
Ironically, I choose not to vote on most topics. People will encourage me to vote and I won't. But that's just because I simply despise politics.


Perhaps you consider me an exception; in that case I'll tell you that I know a great deal of mentally impaired people who's conditions range from just barely impaired to being so impaired that they stick out like a sore thumb in society.

As I said earlier, the vast majority of mentally impaired people may not even know that they're mentally impaired. The impact on their lives is so minimal that nobody notices it.
Even if it is apparent, I've often found them to be some of the strongest individuals I know. Individuals with unique perspectives and brilliant ideas, often times I've found that their reasoning skills can be far above average, not below.

All being mentally impaired means is that someone has obstacles in their lives. So someone has a hard time paying attention (ADD/ADHD), that doesn't mean they can't pay attention, and it doesn't mean they can't make decisions like voting.

Quite frankly, with modern medicine most impairments can be significantly reduced to the point where previously severe impairments become only mild impairments.

Someone could easily stack the votes with mentally handicap people due to the fact that they said, "Vote for the person and you will get to go bowling tonight."

I personally find that offensive. Mental impairment does not mean stupid or childlike. Nor does it mean that someone is easily manipulated.
You seem to think all mentally impaired people function the same as severely mentally impaired people, when in fact there are so very few people like that. Even with people like that, they usually mature and become more independent as they grow up.
Maybe you're just used to seeing kids with severe mental impairments, but an adult with the same impairment is practically a different species. Sometimes they may sound, look, and even act dumb, but they're usually just as intelligent as others. Their opinions are relevant.

 

[Shu]

Hmm, I do believe you just took everything I said out of context. Unless you are mentally handicap with Autism or Down syndrome, that is what I was referring to. I was not referring to OCD. I have mild OCD when it comes to a few things around my house. I have to do 3 things before I go out the door, every day. What I mean is if you have ever actually been around down syndrome people, they often times need decisions made for them in order to help their judgement. Now it would be harsh to say that just because someone can't stand on their feet, metaphorically, that it would be impossible for them to vote. I did not mean this.

By stacking the vote, I mean taking advantage of the system. Mentally handicap people are more suspetible to manipulation, I'm sorry but it is true. Now if I need to be sad and look up stats, I'm going to cry, so I'm leaving this be.

Sometimes they may sound, look, and even act dumb, but they're usually just as intelligent as others.

Uh no they don't look dumb, I respect them as if they were my brother half the time. I didn't say they were not intellegent, but apparently you are in the above sentence.

Voting is more of a complicated process in my opinion. It takes free will in order to choose, if they are able to make the choice on their own. Then so be it, it might be harsh, but this is my last word I'm leaving in this thread. Please read all the way through next time.

 

[Sir Kenneth]

I understand the sentiment about mentally handicapped person's vote possibly being influenced/manipulated by a caretaker or a parent or something, but I don't think it's a valid argument simply because the same applies to many none handicapped people. One could argue that people belonging to cult-like religions like Scientology would be easily manipulated by their religious leaders to tick off a certain box when they vote. Should members of Scientology be excluded from voting because they MIGHT be manipulated? Or what about women from conservative Christian or muslim families, which are traditionally patriarchal? We can't entirely rule out that their vote might be manipulated by their husband.

 

[Shu]

One could argue that people belonging to cult-like religions like Scientology would be easily manipulated by their religious leaders to tick off a certain box when they vote. Should members of Scientology be excluded from voting because they MIGHT be manipulated?

Heh, you want my opinion on this too? I won't go into this area because it is religion, but I will say... "maybe". If what you are saying is .. if these people are all manipulated into think one thing, which could in all possibilities be completely a lie, then no they should not be able to vote, unless they were able to get all the facts straight. Who wants an official elected based off a lie?

The reason I'm making an argument based off of manipulation at all is because what gives one the ability to vote in the first place? It has to do with free will. That is the beauty of voting here in the States. No one is holding a gun to your head, and it always cracks me up to hear about the "vote or die" campaign. Although I'm a registered voter I didn't vote for either president candidates this year, because I believe our media is more of an influence than anything for those two people. Just look what happened to Sarah Palin as of recent, she just gave up her governor status when she had 18 months left on her term.

That is for another thread altogether though. I believe if a vote is not backed by free will, then it is not a democratic vote at all. Take a few presidents in Africa, or let me be less generalized, how about Somalia. Some people are actually forced to vote in order to maintain the well being of their family or their selves. This isn't the only country that has done this either.

I might see light into mentally disabled people voting, but more often times than not you will have someone behind them making their decisions for them. This isn't the case all of the time granted, but hey.. I was just throwing it out there in the first place.

 

[Vladislak]

Hmm, I do believe you just took everything I said out of context. Unless you are mentally handicap with Autism or Down syndrome, that is what I was referring to. I was not referring to OCD. I have mild OCD when it comes to a few things around my house. I have to do 3 things before I go out the door, every day. What I mean is if you have ever actually been around down syndrome people, they often times need decisions made for them in order to help their judgement. Now it would be harsh to say that just because someone can't stand on their feet, metaphorically, that it would be impossible for them to vote. I did not mean this.

Actually, I was talking about mentally retardation as a whole. OCD simply makes up a part of that and it was simply being used as a tie-in to talk about a broader subject.

If you don't like that I have plenty of other examples that included some people with severe autism, down syndrome, and others.

As I said before, it sounds like you're referring to children with autism. I know plenty of autistic adults that have done perfectly find when it comes to judgment. Children in general have poor judgment, it's just worse for autistic kids. As adults they generally improve greatly.

By stacking the vote, I mean taking advantage of the system. Mentally handicap people are more suspetible to manipulation, I'm sorry but it is true. Now if I need to be sad and look up stats, I'm going to cry, so I'm leaving this be.

I would like to see these statistics, but I'm not going to force you to provide them.

Uh no they don't look dumb, I respect them as if they were my brother half the time. I didn't say they were not intellegent, but apparently you are in the above sentence.

I wasn't insulting them. I've come across a lot of superficial people who point and make fun and say that they're dumb based purely on their appearance. I was adding that statement to argue against it. But rather than just say "they don't look dumb" I thought I would take another approach.

Perhaps the sentence wasn't worded quite right, it may not have been clear enough. I wasn't saying that they look dumb, please don't assume that. I should have said "they may look dumb to some people". That was what I originally meant. Sorry about that.

Voting is more of a complicated process in my opinion. It takes free will in order to choose, if they are able to make the choice on their own. Then so be it, it might be harsh, but this is my last word I'm leaving in this thread. Please read all the way through next time.

Actually I read all the way through beforehand. My argument wasn't solely created to combat yours, I added what I felt was necessary to combat other common arguments as well.