Something I find typically annoying with atheists.

[Apparent Amarant]

Ok let me first point out that I'm what is considered an agnostic atheist. Meaning I admit to the fact I don't have a clue what the truth is but that I side with other theories and not with Christianity or other religions in their strict beliefs of whatever it happens to be more often then

I have frequently read or participated in religious debates. Mostly just read, but the thing I have come upon frequently is that while Christians are often blasted for there ignorance and being blind to any form of reason when in discussion, and I will admit it's true for a good majority, a large majority of the atheists argue in such a way to exhibit the same level of ignorance. It's really frustrating.

We have already gone over the fact that I'm not Christian or religious and have other beliefs but it is so annoying when 90% of posts are like

"God can't be real because of *****" The stars being some random part of the Bible being picked apart and what seems like an obvious discrepancy in the book being picked apart. You can not simply pick apart one small section of the Bible and think you are proving anything or even poking a hole in it. It's not possible. One reason is because most intelligent Christians I've come across, and I'll admit there numbers don't seem staggering, adhere to the belief that the Bible has been handled by men for so long and not only translated but was actually published and written and re-written by a man. Only the very first copy came directly from the mouth of God. The majority of Christians now do not believe the Bible is infallible, but that God himself is.

It also seems that when atheists try to prove the Bible wrong they take the words in it even stricter then you average Christian. Some religious sects of Christianity do believe that the Bible is not meant to be taken figuratively but has to be taken literally, but even in those sects a large portion of the following does not believe that. Even the ones they do question who is capable of actually determing what the literal meaning of some of the more ambiguous sections are to say what the literal meaning is.

I know this sounds like a ramble, but when I first got into debating I expected that atheists would be logical and reasonable, but what I found was that they leaned on atheism as if it was their belief system and blindly followed it with a level of ignorance that rivaled that of even the most close-minded religious folk. Has anyone else noticed this?

I'm not calling anyone out here because I have yet to dive into this section of this particular forum. I'm just ranting about something I have noticed in other forums. Some of them with large active religious debate sections and some solely dedicated to it.

Aristotle said " It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it". I believe that.

If you think this post is stupid that is ok and your right.

 

[CassinoChips]

Atheism is as much a belief system as Christianity is. Many describe an atheist as someone who "doesn't believe in God." But that's not wholly accurate. Atheism is better defined as the belief that there is/are no god(s). So I think you are correct in your implication that "hardcore" atheists can be just as blind in their "faith" as devout Christians.

An interesting juxtaposition, no doubt.

 

[Martel]

Atheism seems to defeat its own point, from my perspective. Surely feeling the need to deny belief in the existence of a deity suggests that some belief is needed in the first place? If you don't think a deity exists, why do you feel the need to deny its existence? That'd be my reasoning, anyway. A lot of atheists or agnostics that I have come across seem only to hold that belief anyway because they either don't want to think about it or can't reach a satisfying conclusion. They're just sitting on the fence.

But then, I'm an apatheist; I don't care one way or the other if a deity exists or not, Christian or otherwise.

 

[Abstract Debauchery]

I'm Atheist, but the thing is, I don't give a shit. I'll argue if a christian, for some odd reason, feels as if it's their job to "correct" me. Even then, they tend to get pissed off at me even more for not taking them or their argument seriously.

The last serious religious debate that I was in, ended in two Christians crying because one couldn't figure out how to get the devil out of me, and the other couldn't get why I was slandering the good word of "God".

I burst out laughing to be honest.

I really don't care what anyone believes. It's up to you, and it's your choice to make. All I ask is that you leave me alone with mine. I'll "bathe in sin" and I can "be so angry because I don't have 'God' in my life all I want". It's my choice damn it. Pray for me all you want, in my view it's not going to do you any good, but if it makes you feel better, great.

 

[Cardboard~Exodus]

The only reason Atheists like me deny the existance of god (gods in general but in the US mostly Christianity) is because it's crammed down our throats so we have to back up and say 'Fuck you.' Also, I've very nearly been murdered for being an Atheist, so that was fun .

 

[Priestess-Mars]

I'm also an agnostic, but when people come up to my face and they go, "YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN GOD. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A RELIGION" and shit like how my dad does to my face, it pisses me off. I know atheists have their annoying little quirks, but so do people who believe in god.

 

[Apparent Amarant]

Atheism is as much a belief system as Christianity is. Many describe an atheist as someone who "doesn't believe in God." But that's not wholly accurate. Atheism is better defined as the belief that there is/are no god(s). So I think you are correct in your implication that "hardcore" atheists can be just as blind in their "faith" as devout Christians.

An interesting juxtaposition, no doubt.

That is basically how I view atheism as well, and it is actual definition. Meaning the definition contains the phrase "the belief". However most atheists who are really stubborn and do not believe Aristotle's words that I quoted deny that and say this phrase "no atheism is the lack of a belief system". They will not admit it is a belief system on it's own.

I'm not grouping all atheists together just the ones that tend to act this way plenty of atheists are different.

The last serious religious debate that I was in, ended in two Christians crying because one couldn't figure out how to get the devil out of me, and the other couldn't get why I was slandering the good word of "God".

Yes private Christian school Christians is what they sound like. I have some friends who went to a private Christian school but in their school they were considered the most "worldly". Some of the people at their school though were so incredibly blinded by the school and their parents that when they actually have to exist with regular people in society they will be utterly lost. Arguing with them at this point is going to be completely pointless, and obvious to most. What I'm saying and what seems less known is that there are atheist versions of that same close-minded blindness.

Again I am not ever attempting to classify an entire group. I have met and known far too many people to ever think that was possible to do accurately.

I know atheists have their annoying little quirks, but so do people who believe in god.

What I'm talking about isn't really a quirk and I fully admitted that Christians often act this way too. It's just everyone knows Christians act this way but people tend to ignore that atheists do too. Because most others who are also atheists won't point it out and if a Christian said "the way you are veiwing my opinions and the approach you are taking towards this discussion are bordering on ignorance" then everyone would laugh in that persons face that was not also Christian.

 

[Abstract Debauchery]

The only reason Atheists like me deny the existance of god (gods in general but in the US mostly Christianity) is because it's crammed down our throats so we have to back up and say 'Fuck you.' Also, I've very nearly been murdered for being an Atheist, so that was fun .

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "crammed down our throats." I'm not denying that it hasn't, but that wasn't my reason for becoming an Atheist. For me, there were many reasons. One main reason of course being that the concept of any god was and is and shall always remain... Illogical.

Everyone has their own different reasons for believing or not believing.

Now, nearly being murdered... That's something I'm interesting in hearing about.

 

[Gingerbread Lesbian]

The only reason Atheists like me deny the existance of god (gods in general but in the US mostly Christianity) is because it's crammed down our throats so we have to back up and say 'Fuck you.'

Works both ways, religious people are probably sick of having the view that God doesn't exist and the bibles a lie etc 'crammed' down their throats by Atheists. Atheists are just as bad as other religious cults.

I'm an Atheist simply because science has proved a lot of the bible wrong, and is based on objective matters so it's very difficult to argue against, whereas, it's always going to be impossible to prove God exists. All being said, I couldn't care less if God was real or not anyway.

 

[FinalHeart]

Catholics in general aren't bad, neither are Athiests, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, whatever. It's the extremists, in any of these belief systems, that are bad. Unfortunately, the worst in any group are often what defines the group in the long run.

 

[L]

There's no use believing in something if you don't have the resolve to stand up and support those beliefs.

It doesn't matter if it's blind faith or weightless statements. People won't believe things that they don't have a reason to believe.

There will always be those who are ignorant, so you could always just kill yourself if you can't stand it, or you could just deal with it.

and no, I'm not telling you to go hang yourself, shove a barrel down your throat, jump in front of a train, etc., just killing yourself is the only way I can really think of that'd free you from the ignorance of people for eternity.

so since those things are some pretty sad things to do, I think you should probably just learn how to deal with the fact that no one is all knowing and everyone is ignorant.

 

[CassinoChips]

A lot of atheists or agnostics that I have come across seem only to hold that belief anyway because they either don't want to think about it or can't reach a satisfying conclusion. They're just sitting on the fence.

By definition, that has to be agnostic, not atheist. Atheism is more definite than agnosticism. Atheists cannot believe in a god of any kind, otherwise they'd be, at minimum, agnostic. And I'm sure some "atheists" call themselves that without realizing that they are, in fact, agnostic.

Minor quibble, but eh.

 

[Apparent Amarant]

There's no use believing in something if you don't have the resolve to stand up and support those beliefs.

It doesn't matter if it's blind faith or weightless statements. People won't believe things that they don't have a reason to believe.

There will always be those who are ignorant, so you could always just kill yourself if you can't stand it, or you could just deal with it.

and no, I'm not telling you to go hang yourself, shove a barrel down your throat, jump in front of a train, etc., just killing yourself is the only way I can really think of that'd free you from the ignorance of people for eternity.

so since those things are some pretty sad things to do, I think you should probably just learn how to deal with the fact that no one is all knowing and everyone is ignorant.

I wasn't really asking for how to deal with it or be free of it. Obviously there will always be those who are ignorant. I was pointing out that often the people in religious debates who call others ignorant are being just as ignorant, and are just as stubborn when confronted with the fact.

 

[Morrigan]

I consider myself Christian,and no when I say Christian don't get the idea of a person who goes to Church every Sunday,who dresses conservative(although I do but for different reasons) and whatever is "associated" with Christianity.I myself am,and the way I want.I won't force it on any one,my mom never raised me this way,like being too religious.I just believe that there is God.I don't live the way the Bible says we have,I live the way I believe I should.
Now when it comes to atheists,they kinda get on my nerves cause most of them seem like they don't wanna listen to anybody else's opinion(not talking about everyone of course) and usually they like to force their opinion on others.I just hate how they act like smart*sses when they really are close-minded people who refuse to see further than where their knowledge limits them.I have no problem with other people no matter what their religion is,isn't as long as they don't force it on me.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

Only responding to the first post.

I believe in a great power that's up their watching down on us from heaven. He/She is called many things, and it does not mind. It is a God of Love. Now, my views are out of the way, let's answer the question.

Your problem seems to be with the extreme side of the coin. I have friends that don't believe in God, and they don't feel the need to ridicule everyone else's views. They're really nice people. However, the Catholics I've met are the most preachest judgemental lot I know. But you see, it's not because their Catholic, it's because they take things to the extreme.

It's dangerous to say that something about a group of people typically annoys you. It's almost like saying that black people typically scare you because they all have guns. THat's not true, only a few do that, and yet you've just made a statment about them all.

Some Atheists are just trying to get attenion or rebel, it's true, but some actually believe it, and while it's okay to be annoyed with the few extremists, it's not okay to make a blanket statement, which I'm sure you didn't intend to do.

Another example would be that I find Muslims scary because they blow things up. It's something only a few did that we blame them all for. And it's not right.

 

[lreal]

Atheism is as much a belief system as Christianity is. Many describe an atheist as someone who "doesn't believe in God." But that's not wholly accurate. Atheism is better defined as the belief that there is/are no god(s). So I think you are correct in your implication that "hardcore" atheists can be just as blind in their "faith" as devout Christians.

An interesting juxtaposition, no doubt.

Atheism is not a 'belief system" that is analogous to Christianity, that is unless you find science to be a belief system. What atheists rely on is the power to science to come to the reasonable conclusion that the God pointed at by Christians does not exist. If opposing scientific evidence were ever to come into play, atheists would likely switch positions to Christians/Islam/whatever the science supports. This is rationale decision making, not a blind adherence to any religion.

Christians believe in their religion despite any evidence leading to the contrary. This 'faith' despite the odds makes it a belief system.

Atheism seems to defeat its own point, from my perspective. Surely feeling the need to deny belief in the existence of a deity suggests that some belief is needed in the first place? If you don't think a deity exists, why do you feel the need to deny its existence? That'd be my reasoning, anyway. A lot of atheists or agnostics that I have come across seem only to hold that belief anyway because they either don't want to think about it or can't reach a satisfying conclusion. They're just sitting on the fence.

But then, I'm an apatheist; I don't care one way or the other if a deity exists or not, Christian or otherwise.

You're reasoning is flawed. In this manner the Boogey Man, Santa Clause, Greek deities, etc... are all true. An idea of something can exist without it being a part of reality.

 

[CassinoChips]

Atheism is not a 'belief system" that is analogous to Christianity, that is unless you find science to be a belief system. What atheists rely on is the power to science to come to the reasonable conclusion that the God pointed at by Christians does not exist. If opposing scientific evidence were ever to come into play, atheists would likely switch positions to Christians/Islam/whatever the science supports. This is rationale decision making, not a blind adherence to any religion.

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It may not be a 1:1 analogue, but it's pretty darn close. Some atheists believe just as fervently in their atheism as 'hardcore' Christians/Muslims/whatever. Technically, you're right. It's an -ism, thus an ideology.

I highly doubt that atheists 'would likely switch positions' if science were to come out in support of a particular religion. That would require a significant restructuring of their schemata, which is very difficult to do in a short amount of time. It would create cognitive dissonance.

Also, 'blind adherence' is not always the case. I know of many educated people who have come to the decision that Christianity is the most correct path. Their decision is just as rational as any secular choice.

 

[lreal]

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It may not be a 1:1 analogue, but it's pretty darn close. Some atheists believe just as fervently in their atheism as 'hardcore' Christians/Muslims/whatever. Technically, you're right. It's an -ism, thus an ideology.

I highly doubt that atheists 'would likely switch positions' if science were to come out in support of a particular religion. That would require a significant restructuring of their schemata, which is very difficult to do in a short amount of time. It would create cognitive dissonance.

Also, 'blind adherence' is not always the case. I know of many educated people who have come to the decision that Christianity is the most correct path. Their decision is just as rational as any secular choice.

I'm not talking about 'some' atheists. I refer to the majority who are atheists for the exact reasons that I stated before, rational decision making via scientific evidence. There is a BIG difference between Christians and atheists in their 'belief'. Christians follow a very key assumption that god exists. There is no evidence or argument here, it is simply taken upon 'faith'. Atheist belief that god doesn't exists isn't taken upon faith, it is a conclusion derived from scientific analysis.

Your reasoning that atheists wouldn't switch positions essentially assumes a very faulty assumption that atheist belief is similar to Christian belief. The atheists do not adhere to atheism as a belief but simply follow it from the evidence. Saying that there is cognitive dissonance would assume that the atheist belief that 'no god exists' is a belief and not a conclusion arrived at through a line of reasoning. Many atheists WOULD switch if the scientific evidence heavily weighed in that god does exist. There is no cognitive dissonance because the method of reasoning has stayed the same, just a different conclusion.

Don't get bogged down by semantics. Atheists simply classify the group of individuals who don't believe in god; it has nothing to do with 'why' they don't.

 

[CassinoChips]

I'm not talking about 'some' atheists. I refer to the majority who are atheists for the exact reasons that I stated before, rational decision making via scientific evidence. There is a BIG difference between Christians and atheists in their 'belief'. Christians follow a very key assumption that god exists. There is no evidence or argument here, it is simply taken upon 'faith'. Atheist belief that god doesn't exists isn't taken upon faith, it is a conclusion derived from scientific analysis.

Do you have statistics that show the majority of atheists think this way? Or is that an assumption?

The other assumption you're making is that scientific analysis can make a determination either way. Which it can't. Religion is an abstract idea that cannot be proven or disproven, regardless of how much scientific analysis there is or is not. You cannot prove a negative. Thus, you either believe that there is, or believe that there isn't.

Your reasoning that atheists wouldn't switch positions essentially assumes a very faulty assumption that atheist belief is similar to Christian belief.

No, it's based on psychology.

The atheists do not adhere to atheism as a belief but simply follow it from the evidence. Saying that there is cognitive dissonance would assume that the atheist belief that 'no god exists' is a belief and not a conclusion arrived at through a line of reasoning.

That's not the point. A schema is a mental framework based on information perceived as 'correct' by the mind. A mainstream Christian's schema is constructed such that the mind is predisposed to accepting information that states that God exists, and dismissing, often out of hand, that which doesn't. Same for an atheist's schema, only reversed.

Once confronted with information that is not easily ingratiated to the schema (especially one so significant to a person's mind as the existence, or lack thereof, of a deity), a person, in most cases, has to completely break down that mental framework and rebuild it from scratch. So, to intimate that a person would simply 'switch' allegiances is a very light-hearted approach to a disturbingly profound concept.

 

[lreal]

Do you have statistics that show the majority of atheists think this way? Or is that an assumption?

No but I do know many atheists. There seems to be a general consensus that the lack of belief is due to a scant amount of scientific evidence. This seems like a reasonable assumption anyway rather than the alternative of a blind belief that no god exists for no apparent reason.

The other assumption you're making is that scientific analysis can make a determination either way. Which it can't. Religion is an abstract idea that cannot be proven or disproven, regardless of how much scientific analysis there is or is not. You cannot prove a negative. Thus, you either believe that there is, or believe that there isn't.

That's exactly the reason. There is no such thing as 'faith' in science. If there is no evidence then there is no conclusion. This is rational thought. If you can't substantially prove something then you don't conclude it exists. This is how science works.

Additionally, don't be quick to disregard scientific evidence in support of god. Many scientists have utilized such to attempt to prove the existence of god. Science is a very powerful tool that should not be disregarded so easily.

That's not the point. A schema is a mental framework based on information perceived as 'correct' by the mind. A mainstream Christian's schema is constructed such that the mind is predisposed to accepting information that states that God exists, and dismissing, often out of hand, that which doesn't. Same for an atheist's schema, only reversed.

Atheist belief is more than schema. You reach the same conclusion regardless of whatever assumption you begin with.

Assume god exists --> too many contradictions ~ god doesn't exist.
Assume god doesn't exist --> insubstantial evidence ~ god doesn't exists.

It has nothing to do with ingrained schema for those that have a basis for disbelief. The analysis is not adulterated by prejudice thought, it arrives at the same conclusion regardless of what the experimenter believes.

Once confronted with information that is not easily ingratiated to the schema (especially one so significant to a person's mind as the existence, or lack thereof, of a deity), a person, in most cases, has to completely break down that mental framework and rebuild it from scratch. So, to intimate that a person would simply 'switch' allegiances is a very light-hearted approach to a disturbingly profound concept.

Again with the semantics. When i say 'switch' I don't mean that it will happen the following day. People believed the world was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, etc... yet when scientific evidence showed the contrary the belief eventually changed. If science does provide a strong basis to conclude that god exists, the shift will happen over time.

Psychology doesn't have much to do with this discussion. This has nothing to do with what is perceived to be true. We are arguing over whether something is true. Contrary to the old adage, perception is NOT 'T'ruth.

If you are saying that Christians believe in God because they are ingrained to take conclusions towards this direction, that is a strong reason why the belief in Christianity is flawed compared to atheists who rely on the unbiased method of science.