Spell System is completely flawed!

[Pumpkin King]

I spent a long time getting my characters to level 35 and getting the licenses for all the cool spells..

These spells sound so cool when you read the description of them, and you think they are gonna be so powerful when you get them.

The problem, NONE of these spells do anything useful in combat, usually don't even work when you cast them, or are far less effective then just swinging a sword a few times.

Just a few examples:

1. Dark Magic atacks that "deal damage to all foes in range".. sounds great! Except that the damage is minimal, and you can do MUCH more damage with a single swing of your weapon.

2. Poison and Toxify - "deal small amounts of damage over time." Guess what? Most of the monsters you encounter can be killed with a sword in a handful of swings.. but if you poison them, it will probably take at least 5 minutes for them to die. Completely useless spell, cant effectively cast them on bosses either, not that you'd want to.

3. Sleep - "put foes to sleep". Another completely useless spell. Monster will stay asleep until you attack it once. Its the equivalent of getting in damage you probably would have gotten in the first place, or one extra hit. Plus this spell fails 70% of the time anyhow.

4. Silence and Reflect - supposed to "disable foes from using spells on you." Problem is that they dont work. Casting silence usually always fails on bosses. Reflect doesnt work when you cast it on yourself, the monster's spell effects still get through for some unknown reason. Spell doesnt do what its advertised to do!

5. Decoy - completely useless.. you will cause one of your characters to die instantly, and then the monsters just start attacking you again after a few seconds.

6. Dark and Darkra completely worthless - cause about 300 damage, which is a total joke considering a sword does 2000 damage.

7. Most of the technics are complete rubbish too.


I could go on and list most spells and explain why they dont work..

Basically, Mists and Quickenings can kill most difficult monsters, where spells would simply waste your MP and do nothing.


I havent solved the main quest of the game yet, was considering doing the hunts and side quests, but the lack of tactical combat depth makes me just want to complete the game and be done with it.

Am I missing something? Do the spells get more powerful somewhere along the line? Maybe level 50?

I don't know any good spells except the white spells to cure, and perhaps casting Haste so you get more sword attacks. Seems easier to just attack stuff and cast Cura..

Or am I doing it wrong? Is there a spell strategy to this game Im not understanding?

 

[Seru_Kai]

I agree with most of what you said, except for decoy. Decoy is highly useful in the certain situations.

My game:

I cast decoy on Basch, who also has protect, shell, haste, bubble, AND berserk. Not only does he completely destroy whatever enemies in range (that he attacks) but I have a second member (Fran usually)constantly healing him, leaving my third party member (Ashe or Balthier) attacking from range, doing massive damage with thebest gun in game (forgot the name) and never being noticed because of the warmachine that is Basch.

Most of the spells have a use in situations, you just have to know where. Also, do you have all of the liscense board accessed for the extra magic power? I used to not waste time on magic at all, until I covered all of the augments, and it helped a lot.

 

[glow]

yeah, im not really a spell kind of person

I used Holy and Flare
Dispell
Cure
Esuna
Haste
Shell
and Protect

they all worked pretty okay..... so im not complaining

 

[Pumpkin King]

Then why is this game considered such a masterpiece of combat and strategy when its just hack and slash with very little spell depth or strategy at all?

 

[Jacqui]

Decoy tends to work better if you also use reverse- then you get healed instead of killed
Also, I've never considered this game to be any sort of masterpiece- I like it, but I don't think it's the most amazing fighting strategy or whatever...

 

[Sultan]

Did you increase your Magick Potency?

My tactics are similar to Seru Kai. I have the gambits set on casting Bubble, haste, shell, protect, and decoy on Basch. And I give him the best/heavy armor. He's my tank. The decoy helps those crowd of mobs off your more fragile party members. You're going to be running into swarms of enemies. Especially in bonus dungeons where you're going to be fighting the Espers with minions hacking at your shit. I use Dark and Darkara when there are alot of enemies around me. Again with Basch, so he could come off as the bigger threat to the mobs (Note, I have at least one party member to heal Basch regularly via gambits). There are also mobs that are weak to dark. The idea of using Silence or Sleep is when you're fighting a large number of enemies, so you disable one or two of them while killing your target. You don't necessarily cast these status inflicting spells on the exact mob you're targeting, save your MP.

For now concentrate on getting your Green, Time and white magicks first. Get at least one of your members to learn Thundara, Blizarra and Fira. Make sure you increase his or her magic potency and MP regenerating via license board.

And do as many hunts as you can. You get excellent accessories that will amp your stats and add all sorts of cool effects.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

How could it ever have been considered a masterpiece ?

Then why is this game considered such a masterpiece of combat and strategy when its just hack and slash with very little spell depth or strategy at all?

when Matsuno left Square before the game was completed ?

Of course it's not a masterpiece.It's the worst FF of the modern era...unless anyone wants to consider FFXIII as worse.

rotfl

The accessories in this game certainly aren't excellent..they're problematic and of dubious use at best...The only exception to that are the nipoloa..which doesn't work on most bosses and the hard to obtain ribbon.

You only need decoy and reverse on the last 3 hunts...zodiark, omega and Yiazamat...the rest of the game you can do without them and still win.

Most bosses and high marks have piercing magic..so reflect doesn't work to protect you from them.
Reflect is best used to reflect the magic the enemy is weak against against your own reflect..example ..reflect holy off your own characters to hit a monster that is weak against holy.
So you use it that way.
I still find it doesn't seem to work that well but that is what the faqs say you should do.

Some of the higher level magic spells are missing from the game because Matsuno left Square and his replacement missed putting them in/including them in the game.
I agree that magic in this game isn't what it should be.

 

[Not of Rust]

Maybe some spoilers since you're early on in te egame - I don't know - just being cautious..............probably nothing that will really break your heart to know but proceed with caution.






Dark magics are similarly effective as other elemental counterparts - the exception is that fewer enemies have weaknesses to the dark element vs other elements.

Reflect is very effective for beating elementally weak bosses at low-mid levels. Cast reflect on all party members, have them cast a multi-hit spell on one another (eg Blizzara, Blizzaga), and each cast hits the enemy 3 times. Good example is Adralamech - use a reflectaga mote, equip weapons that boost magic and go in and just start spamming Blizzara on yourself and you can beat him pretty early on and wipe out all the Shambling Corpses that surround him.

It's also good against bosses or marks that don't absorb the elemental magic they cast but attack primarily with magic. Buff prior to entering the battle, use reflect, and set your gambits to heal/remove status with items vs magic.

Decoy is more effective later in the game for when the tank tactic becomes useful on bosses (combine with Bubble to boost HP, berserk since ths character need only attack, and let another character worry about healing him). It's not as great early on when you're fighting in the field when HP is low and you get swarmed but enemies.

I kind of agree on Sleep save for the Arieel leveling trick - Sleepga works well and since they're undead you can wipe them out with Curaja/Curaga without waking them. Given the masses and huge damage they do this is a very useful tactic.

Poison and Toxify do kinda suck - only really useful if you're trying to chain enemies at a lower level (you can cast poison/toxify on non-like enemies that would break the chain and let them die of the gradual damage). Similar with spells like Break.

Agree with GameMage though - at this point focus on boosts/augments and curative/status removal magic.

 

[Tmoo]

It's the worst FF of the modern era

them's fightin' words.

in all seriousness - how far in the game are you? even early game, defensive spells should be a life-saver unless you really love potions. magic IS useful, but useful in a supporting sense. this isn't like the turn-based FF's where casting magic is the heavy artillery of your attack repertoire. the magic in FFXII is more tactical and is meant to be used in conjunction with other actions, IE have one of your members cure someone in low health while the other two cover for them, or having your back member cast magic at an enemy with elemental weakness while the others hack/shoot away at it.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

Had the game since it came out...

them's fightin' words.

in all seriousness - how far in the game are you? even early game, defensive spells should be a life-saver unless you really love potions. magic IS useful, but useful in a supporting sense. this isn't like the turn-based FF's where casting magic is the heavy artillery of your attack repertoire. the magic in FFXII is more tactical and is meant to be used in conjunction with other actions, IE have one of your members cure someone in low health while the other two cover for them, or having your back member cast magic at an enemy with elemental weakness while the others hack/shoot away at it.

played it off and on numerous times..got into heated arguments on other boards about it..even left Gamefaqs because of it...

yup that's me..so you can't claim I haven't tried to play it or didn't get very far in it.
I did.

I don't like the game.
I believe it's seriously flawed.

Having said that I have never tried to tell others not to play it or dissed people who liked it.

If others like it that's fine with me.

I just believe it's seriously..no..terribly flawed and I'll leave it at that.

 

[bearsfwd]

Actually, I've never run into any of the problems mentioned...but then again, I don't use half the skills mentioned...for that matter, I have a save that I started a few days ago and I'm about to go fight Cid at Draklor Labs.

1. Dark Magic - I think I used them like 2 times in my most recent play through.

2. Poison and Toxify - Never use them. I've never liked the poison spell anyway. IMO it was fail in FFIV...not sure about the other games though. I always thought Bio was better.

3. Sleep - See Poison and Toxify.

4. Silence and Reflect - See Poison and Toxify for silence. Reflect I don't use often, but more then the previous ones.

5. Decoy - Haven't used it yet, but I think I want to.

6. Dark and Darkra - see Dark Magic. Although, I'm going to try it with my Augments completely finished to see the damage. I may start using dark and darkra if the damage is good enough to me.

7. technicks - I'm not much of a technick fan. But I would like to start trying to find some decent uses for them. Steal, Libra, Charge, and Telekinesis are probably the most useful.

I think I may try the enforced class system challenge that's on gamefaqs.

 

[Pumpkin King]

played it off and on numerous times..got into heated arguments on other boards about it..even left Gamefaqs because of it...

yup that's me..so you can't claim I haven't tried to play it or didn't get very far in it.
I did.

I don't like the game.
I believe it's seriously flawed.

Having said that I have never tried to tell others not to play it or dissed people who liked it.

If others like it that's fine with me.

I just believe it's seriously..no..terribly flawed and I'll leave it at that.

I would enjoy hearing your reasons on why its flawed...

Im about 90% through the main quest right now, just using Cura and Mists... I never used gambits once..

I'm about to post another thread ripping one of the sidequests for being a huge waste of time

 

[Sepalcure]

Well I'm STILL on my first playthrough of FFXII because I want to complete every sidequest in the game, without using any of the "special weaponzOMG!!111".

I've really relied heavily on White Magick in the game, to be perfectly honest. Cure, Cura, and especially Curaga were used heavily for my parties even when we were just facing small mobs. Poison I might have used at least maybe once or twice, no more or no less, simply because the situations rarely called for its usage.

Float was a must especially in dungeons littered with traps. Protect was a definite life-saver in boss fights as well as Silence and Bravery. Faith I only used when I had my supportive mage characters: Balthier and Fran on the frontlines or if I had Penelo on Mage duty, buffing Basch. Bravery, I used to buff Basch. I'd use Decoy on him too and cast Reflect to ensure that he wouldn't get pelted with offensive, damaging spells from mobs while he beat them senseless.

What else? Um elemental magick was absolutely necessary for me, especially during boss fights: Aeroga, Firaga, Thundaga, Blizzaga, dayum I can't tell you how many times I casted those spells in the Ozmone Plains and during the rainy season in Giza Plains. If I were fighting Elementals than I'd have to have at least one character spamming some spells like that while Basch or another tank would be pummeling it with some maces/hammers.

Spells I didn't use much or at all? Poison, Poisona, Stona, etc. why would I need them, especially when I started to gain access to some really useful items such as: Vaccine, Remedies, Antidotes, etc. Actually I never needed Blindna, Poisona or Stona since I always stocked up on Antidotes, Eyedrops, and Gold Needles? If anything those status spells are only necessary when you are in dire need of those items, like if you run out of them or something.

 

[Pumpkin King]

Well I'm STILL on my first playthrough of FFXII because I want to complete every sidequest in the game, without using any of the "special weaponzOMG!!111".

I've really relied heavily on White Magick in the game, to be perfectly honest. Cure, Cura, and especially Curaga were used heavily for my parties even when we were just facing small mobs. Poison I might have used at least maybe once or twice, no more or no less, simply because the situations rarely called for its usage.

Float was a must especially in dungeons littered with traps. Protect was a definite life-saver in boss fights as well as Silence and Bravery. Faith I only used when I had my supportive mage characters: Balthier and Fran on the frontlines or if I had Penelo on Mage duty, buffing Basch. Bravery, I used to buff Basch. I'd use Decoy on him too and cast Reflect to ensure that he wouldn't get pelted with offensive, damaging spells from mobs while he beat them senseless.

What else? Um elemental magick was absolutely necessary for me, especially during boss fights: Aeroga, Firaga, Thundaga, Blizzaga, dayum I can't tell you how many times I casted those spells in the Ozmone Plains and during the rainy season in Giza Plains. If I were fighting Elementals than I'd have to have at least one character spamming some spells like that while Basch or another tank would be pummeling it with some maces/hammers.

Spells I didn't use much or at all? Poison, Poisona, Stona, etc. why would I need them, especially when I started to gain access to some really useful items such as: Vaccine, Remedies, Antidotes, etc. Actually I never needed Blindna, Poisona or Stona since I always stocked up on Antidotes, Eyedrops, and Gold Needles? If anything those status spells are only necessary when you are in dire need of those items, like if you run out of them or something.

Why would you possibly use Thundaga and all those spells?

As I said earlier, they do minimal damage, where a few attacks with a sword will kill something usually..

I agree that the white spells are the most useful..

 

[Tmoo]

played it off and on numerous times..got into heated arguments on other boards about it..even left Gamefaqs because of it...

yup that's me..so you can't claim I haven't tried to play it or didn't get very far in it. I did.

I wasn't harping on ya, I was making a joke. the latter part of my post was directed at Pumpkin King.

Why would you possibly use Thundaga and all those spells? As I said earlier, they do minimal damage, where a few attacks with a sword will kill something usually..

Not a few.....unless you have incredibly strong weapons or are overleveled, at 90% through the game the enemies should be sufficiently hard enough that they take more than 3-5 attacks to kill. What magic do you have at this point? Thundaga, blizzaga, and firaga are what I would consider 'mid-level' magic as far as XII goes, spells like scourge, ardor, holy, etc are more damaging in my opinion. scourge also has the benefit of inflicting sap, which is a heavy version of poison. if you're killing monstrosities like elementals in a few hits, then you have no need for magic, but otherwise it's useful as a tactical addition to your attacks.

In the end it depends on your play style. You say you don't use gambits, so that changes things as far as tactics go since you're inputting commands for each character. I guess magic isn't as useful if you're having to cast it manually every so often. It also depends on the type of weapons you have on your characters. If they're all melee then magic will be less useful because all of them are on the front line.

 

[Harlequin]

2. Poison and Toxify - "deal small amounts of damage over time." Guess what? Most of the monsters you encounter can be killed with a sword in a handful of swings.. but if you poison them, it will probably take at least 5 minutes for them to die. Completely useless spell, cant effectively cast them on bosses either, not that you'd want to.

There's no point using poison against something you can kill in a few attacks. Use it against enemies with high HP levels or pitched battles when it's difficult to sustain an attack.

3. Sleep - "put foes to sleep". Another completely useless spell. Monster will stay asleep until you attack it once. Its the equivalent of getting in damage you probably would have gotten in the first place, or one extra hit. Plus this spell fails 70% of the time anyhow.

Sleep + Oil + Firaga = Victory

5. Decoy - completely useless.. you will cause one of your characters to die instantly, and then the monsters just start attacking you again after a few seconds.

Probably the most useful spell in the game after restorative spells. Obviously when you combine Decoy with Protect/Shell and strong defensive armour you have a character that can blunt even the fiercest attackers in the game.

the lack of tactical combat depth makes me just want to complete the game and be done with it.

I think that's an issue with your ability as opposed to the depth the game's battle system offers.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

I try not to question people's abilties...
What goes around comes around...imo...

Magic in this game..offensive magic has been dumbed down considerably.Yes you are better off using a sword than magic.
Magic can wear an enemy down gradually but you also have to have your characters whaling away at them with weapons to win.

My biggest problem with the game is poor plot and character developement.Matsuno was famous for the fine job he did with Tactics.
He recently admitted that that he left Square because they were interfering with his management of the game. That's his excuse for leaving.
It shows.

Vayne was a poor villain.
I never felt he was the threat that Kefka, Kuja, Sephiroth and Sin were.
Sure he was a murderer but no worse than other rulers who murdered their kin to get power.

anyway...some of my take on the game.

 

[Tmoo]

Magic in this game..offensive magic has been dumbed down considerably.Yes you are better off using a sword than magic.
Magic can wear an enemy down gradually but you also have to have your characters whaling away at them with weapons to win.

That's the point of the magic in XII. It isn't meant to be juggernaut powerful and replace physical attacks. It's a supplement. You can choose to just whack away with weapons, or, you can infuse magic to add some variety to your offensive. It's in the same vein that you don't have to use quickenings, though they help tremendously.

My biggest problem with the game is poor plot and character developement.Matsuno was famous for the fine job he did with Tactics.
He recently admitted that that he left Square because they were interfering with his management of the game. That's his excuse for leaving.
It shows.

Vayne was a poor villain.
I never felt he was the threat that Kefka, Kuja, Sephiroth and Sin were.
Sure he was a murderer but no worse than other rulers who murdered their kin to get power.

anyway...some of my take on the game.

This thread isn't about how good the game is, it's about the magic system. If you want to complain about the story you can do that in one of the pinned threads.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

Someone asked why I didn't like the game so I said what I said in response to that...

sorry if you didn't like it.
shrugs.

Magic doesn't necessarily have to be an end all..but the magic in the game qualitatively is worse/weaker than in any previous FF game.

It's not fully developed either.

Probably because, as I said ,Matsuno left and his replacement didn't do due dilligence in reviewing the game for completeness.

As it is I have said all I feel I need to about FFXII.

 

[Tmoo]

Someone asked why I didn't like the game so I said what I said in response to that...

sorry if you didn't like it.
shrugs.

Ah, I see. I still view it as out of place, but it no longer bothers me.

Magic doesn't necessarily have to be an end all..but the magic in the game qualitatively is worse/weaker than in any previous FF game.

But of course. And that's because:

It isn't meant to be juggernaut powerful and replace physical attacks. It's a supplement.

It's not fully developed either.

Probably because, as I said ,Matsuno left and his replacement didn't do due dilligence in reviewing the game for completeness.

As it is I have said all I feel I need to about FFXII.

You'll have to cite sources before I take any of that seriously.

I don't care if you say 'In my opinion, the magic system was bad' or 'In my opinion, the magic system didn't feel complete', but you're spouting off like all of that is fact, which it isn't, and that's my problem with your posts so far in this thread, and that's why I'm being anal about it.

EDIT: I'm aware this probably makes me look like a jackass. Ahh, well.