Squalls Death

[GF-Lionheart]

There's a difference between a 'Doink' on the head by a Tonberry and a Masamune through the back and out the front... Sorry Aerith fans...

 

[soldier first class]

There's a difference between a 'Doink' on the head by a Tonberry and a Masamune through the back and out the front... Sorry Aerith fans...

Agreed. Aerith pretty much got effed up pretty bad. Recovering from that was definitely not happeneing. I think those cure spells and life spells are for KO statuses anyway.

 

[Rapture]

All right guys, since I see that this thread has strayed away from the topic of Squall's death so this is just a polite reminder that we should try and keep on topic please...and thank-you.

 

[GF-Lionheart]

All right guys, since I see that this thread has strayed away from the topic of Squall's death so this is just a polite reminder that we should try and keep on topic please...and thank-you.

Again, the thread hasn't strayed. We're discussing the difference between 'Death' and 'KO' which is a large factor in the topic being disucussed, stop being so twitchy about "Straying from the topic". This is a forum, we are having a discussion, that's what forums are for.

Back on topic:
It's like on FFX (and other games) where a character gets eaten by the abyss worm (I think) they're permanently removed from the remainder of the battle. They can't be revived/bought back, would you class this as 'Death' or 'KO'?

 

[Linnaete]

A thread is considered strayed when the main focus of the topic has shifted, therefore a prolonged discussion solely about the difference between a KO and a death ought to be made in its own thread. While there are no issues in members comparing Squall with someone like Aerith for example, an entire post shouldn't solely focus on Aerith or something unrelated to Squall as if this were a thread pertaining to them. Just a heads up.

 

[Starships]

I don't really believe in this theory, and hopefully it's not true otherwise it makes 80 per cent of FF8 rather pointless and could of been a movie instead of Spirits Within.

The beginning of CD 2 makes sense. After CD 1 the idea of flying Gardens and more may seem retarted, but don't forget that this game is called Final Fantasy. derp. Plus it makes sense that Seifer would want Squall healed so he could tortue him, mock him, and make a complete mockery of him. There's also proof that Seifer wanted to be a sorceresses knight and be seen as a hero on CD1 if you head into the Balamb library and see that Seifer has a book on being a sorceresses knight overdue. Seifer's ambitions were made clear before the turn of CD 2. So why would the rest be a dream, if the start of the disk makes complete sense ?

Squall and Rinoa's love is not sudden. Alot of ''Squall is dead '' believers, believe in this theory because, they also believe that the love between Squall and Rinoa makes a sudden jump between hated and annoyance between them and then sudden deep love for each other. Though it's clear that Squall falls in love with Rinoa from the dance in the first disk, he's just hurt from her flirting with him and then walking away like a troll, but Rinoa had no idea. Squall has trusts issues and he doesn't open up towards others because he fears them leaving, so it's clear that Squall hides them and then on CD 3 with Rinoa being in a serious coma, he realizes that he can't take people for granted, espically Rinoa and it sparks a change in his stoic and cold persona.

The ending is misread. The ending is not about life flashing before Squall's eyes, it's about the time gate Squall ends up in is becoming messed up because he took the wrong hate and didn't listen to Laguna's advice about thinking positive while trying to find a way back to normal time. Plus watch after the credits and you'll see that it blows the ''Squall is dead '' theory out of the water, just by that alone.

 

[Sheechiibii]

No, I definitely don't think Squall is dead. That...really makes no sense whatsoever. Why would he be dead? You could just as easily say that he died right at the start of the game when Seifer sliced his face open, could you not? He was injured, he was cured so that he could be tortured for answers about SeeD.

Xx..xX

 

[Clodan]

FFVIII - another point of view of the story

Hello guys,

well do you know the FFVIII-theory which say that everything what happened at the end of disc 1 is just a dream of Squall? If not, here is the link:
http://squallsdead.com/

Well I think it is a really interesting point of view in the game. In some points I agree and in some I disagree with this theory. But all in all I don't believe in this theory because all the experiences, love, hatred and so on aren't real and this fact make me sad. Moreover the love between Squall and Rinoa aren't real as well. But if this theory will be true then some points in the game make more sense for example the rinoa-artemisia-theory.

What do you think about this theory? Is it real or not?

 

[kryceks]

It is an interesting theory. I like the overall analysis of the events in the game and exploration into how they could fit with this theory. Unfortunately, I think it was too complex of a story than what Squaresoft was going for. Generally, Final Fantasy follows its own structure which involves character arcs and development. Granted these elements are all present in the story as it is, they become void by the end if we went by this theory. It states that Squall is experiencing these events after the first disc because his mind is trying to make sense of unanswered questions as he is dying. This means that everything that happened from that point on is only a possibility which in turn leaves the actual story unfinished.

I don't think Squall died. I think the theory makes connections to the story as well as any other theory would. I think we need to take the story as it was presented. I know that there are plot holes that aren't explained, but we just have to accept it as bad writing. It happens, even by the best storytellers.

 

[Lirael]

There's a thread about this theory already! *threads merged*

 

[Hyunxt]

I think this theory is wonderfull and gives another angle to the game
, a dark ton and i love it. The FF with more theorys. and i want to belive in this theory and in the theory of ultimecia to make the game more interesting

 

[ElAirPlaza]

Not to turn this into a debate about the quality of the story of FF8, but:

1. How they survived the ice missile is not explained.
Nuff said on that.


2. The entire party just happened to be from the same orphanage, and Edea / Cid were the matron / patron.
IMO this is an "oh shit, we really should add some back-story to these characters so that the entire game isn't just a bunch of random dudes and dudettes who have to save the world JUST CAUSE!".

Compare that level of back-story to the level of back-story of FF9, for instance. Or hell, even FF7, even FF7 pre-spinoffs and added lore (which in its own doesn't make sense, but that's an argument for another day in another thread).

i feel like these so called "plot holes" are a direct result of square attempting to make FF8 as "realistic" as possible without compromising on fantasy elements. It's a real challenge, and imo, it paid off, why else would you have a strangely large fanbase still hung up on it. And it's not just these two instances you mentioned, the game is LITTERED with moments where the explanation is left up solely to the player's imagination. FF8 is yet to be topped, my personal (and probably unpopular) opinion. FF7 and 9 are always gonna be way too "disney" for my taste, don't get me wrong, i really like both, but still doesn't come close to how ambitious the writers were with the storyline in 8. Alot of people will always look at it as a complete mess, to me it's more like a mind trip. Not sure what your opinion is 9 years later but i hope it shifted towards the positive

NOW~
As for Squall being dead, i heard that Kitase recently shut the theory down completely and went with the "he got hit in the shoulder" explanation.
But i remember telling my sister on our first play through that Squall constantly seems to be criticizing the plot/other character's behaviors and choices from a player's perspective, which i always found strange. It was something along the lines of "Squall sounds like he's hating how the story is developing LOL" or "Squall is acting like he's not even part of the game." When i read up on the squallisdead theory, it kind of gave this criticism some validity.
I REALLY hope they make a fleshed out movie or series out of it, i think it would serve the narrative more than the game format did tbh.

 

[ElAirPlaza]

Actually, I think the ending FMV to FFVIII is the most misinterpreted, and misunderstood of all the series. The ending events are far from erratic, and these aren’t just “flashbacks” we’re watching. What we are seeing (though Squall’s eyes), are events in time that have occurred—events that occurred in Squall’s time and reality, as well as alternate events in alternate timelines and realities. We can see this as most of the sequences involving chance or fate either occurred, or they never occurred.

A good example of this are the events where Squall first meets Rinoa during the ball (where she turns her head, notices him, and then walks toward him), in the ending FMV we see all of the alternate events as Squall moves through them (while he is moving back to his own time and reality), Rinoa is either standing there, or she isn’t—a chance encounter that happened in Squall’s own time and reality and not in others.

Another good example is the space rescue scene where Rinoa drifting away in space. In Squall’s timeline and reality he rescues Rinoa, in another timeline and reality Squall fails to save Rinoa and she actually “does” die in space, thus the FMV showing an alternate outcome of events where the glass on her helmet shatters exposing her to the vacuum of space.

In fact, most of VIII’s story centers around time travel and time-event manipulation which ends in a Predestination Paradox/Causality Loop created by Squall himself. Now, this literary device may not be something new to Square-Enix games, it is, in my opinion, well executed in Final Fantasy VIII. And, it’s the reason I hold this installments story high above the others in the series.

Wow, beautiful way of explaining it.
(sorry for the double post i just had to say it separately)

 

[Belazor et Britannia]

i feel like these so called "plot holes" are a direct result of square attempting to make FF8 as "realistic" as possible without compromising on fantasy elements.

I wouldn't consider them to be plot holes, I consider them to be lazy writing. If you compare FF8's characters with FF9, you'll find that every single character in 9 has a much more rich backstory. Compare that with FF8, where they literally just invented the whole "junctioning GFs makes you forget" as an excuse for every single character in this game existing in the same orphanage and just so happen to have found each other later in life but with no memory.
(Other than Irvine, who remembers because he's never junctioned a GF.)

It's a real challenge, and imo, it paid off, why else would you have a strangely large fanbase still hung up on it.

I would argue that people are hung up on it because of people who genuinely like the game (as few and far between as they are), they then tell people they like it, then arseholes like me come out with ACSHULLY THE STORY IS RUBBISH M80

And it's not just these two instances you mentioned, the game is LITTERED with moments where the explanation is left up solely to the player's imagination. FF8 is yet to be topped, my personal (and probably unpopular) opinion. FF7 and 9 are always gonna be way too "disney" for my taste, don't get me wrong, i really like both, but still doesn't come close to how ambitious the writers were with the storyline in 8. Alot of people will always look at it as a complete mess, to me it's more like a mind trip. Not sure what your opinion is 9 years later but i hope it shifted towards the positive

I'm really confused how you can see a shoehorned backstory as "ambitious" but I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on that one

My opinion on the game hasn't changed:
* Junction system is still the most garbage system they have ever used in a mainline FF game
* The story is still terrible
* Squall is still unlikeable as a character

The only thing that's changed is I now know exactly how broken the game actually is; it's possible to get Lionheart on Disc 1 and to farm enough Break spells that you can do a no EXP run, which means you literally either 1shot or 2shot every single boss in the game (including Omega Weapon) as you have max Str with Lionheart.

It doesn't even take that much grinding, all you have to do is farm Elnoyle cards and refine it into the components you need for Lionheart.

Let's Break FFVIII Remastered [4-8Live]

In short: If it was FF8 that was getting a remake instead of 7, I would be P I S S E D

 

[ElAirPlaza]

I wouldn't consider them to be plot holes, I consider them to be lazy writing. If you compare FF8's characters with FF9, you'll find that every single character in 9 has a much more rich backstory.


I would argue that people are hung up on it because of people who genuinely like the game (as few and far between as they are), they then tell people they like it, then arseholes like me come out with ACSHULLY THE STORY IS RUBBISH M80

Ah yes, Amaranth and Quina, as deep as a backstory could get! How could i forget?

I'm really confused how you can see a shoehorned backstory as "ambitious" but I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on that one

ambitious
/amˈbɪʃəs/
adjective

1. having or showing a strong desire and determination to succeed. (Yet might still fail)

"ambitious" and "showhorned" aren't mutually exclusive, broski

In short: If it was FF8 that was getting a remake instead of 7, I would be P I S S E D

As if it doesn't already have enough "remakes" and "spinoffs" LOL

i think i made my point :') ages later and nothing's changed, the FF8 haters are as bitter as ever

 

[Belazor et Britannia]

Ah yes, Amaranth and Quina, as deep as a backstory could get! How could i forget?

Two characters out of how many?

"ambitious" and "showhorned" aren't mutually exclusive, broski

ambitious
/amˈbɪʃəs/
adjective
4. requiring exceptional effort, ability, etc.

See, I can cherry pick dictionary definitions to fit my point too.

i think i made my point :') ages later and nothing's changed, the FF8 haters are as bitter as ever

And I think I made my point. FF8 fans are as unwilling as ever to accept that it's possible to like a game while still acknowledging its flaws when they're pointed out.

 

[ElAirPlaza]

Two characters out of how many?


ambitious
/amˈbɪʃəs/
adjective
4. requiring exceptional effort, ability, etc.

See, I can cherry pick dictionary definitions to fit my point too.


And I think I made my point. FF8 fans are as unwilling as ever to accept that it's possible to like a game while still acknowledging its flaws when they're pointed out.

shush, listen, you go and play that FF VIII one more time and tell me you don't like it DESPITE the flaws, i'm not even saying it doesn't have any
maybe it's the fact that it IS so flawed that still appeals to me to this day (even more so now)
then again you can't debate taste, like i mean i can poke holes in literally ANY game made in the 90s from a technical aspect
but the magic is always there *^*

 

[Dionysos]

shush, listen, you go and play that FF VIII one more time and tell me you don't like it DESPITE the flaws, i'm not even saying it doesn't have any
maybe it's the fact that it IS so flawed that still appeals to me to this day (even more so now)
then again you can't debate taste, like i mean i can poke holes in literally ANY game made in the 90s from a technical aspect
but the magic is always there *^*

To be honest I think all Final Fantasy games have flaws and don't really fulfil their true potential. Even FFVII (my personal favourite and I consider it a masterpiece). Many of them tease certain interesting ideas and then the fans piece things together and do the rest. And that is okay by me. It encourages deeper engagement and facilitates discussion about the game.

I don't mind that. I like having an imagination and running wild with it. I still love FFVIII sometimes despite its quirks, but also because of them.

I would agree with the statement that, unlike the characters in other FF titles, certain FFVIII characters lack unique, personalised backstories. I don't know if they all have individual theme tunes or anything like that too. I can't remember a 'Zell's Theme' or an 'Irvine's Theme' or anything like that. Their histories are explained via the orphanage plot twist and they all share their past. To some people that might make them boring. Add to that the fact that they are all human and of approximately the same age, so there isn't a great deal of diversity in the cast. The game lacked the equivalent of Red XIII, Cait Sith, Quina, Vivi, Freya, Fran, Mog, Umaro, and so on. It also lacked older characters such as Tellah and Galuf. I wonder if this put some people off. Playing as Laguna, Kiros and Ward allowed the player a welcome chance to play characters who were a bit different.

But FFVIII was a different sort of game. The core characters do still have their differences in the way they carry themselves, the way they talk and the things that they are interested in. Simpler differences, perhaps, but in some ways quite relatable ones. What FFVIII presents as important is perhaps not just the childhood or background or particular heritage of these characters (although their joint background is extremely important too), but what happened afterwards. It is their lives during their formative years which count and make the differences. With all but one of them forgetting their connections to each other and living separately, some of them ending up at different gardens entirely, they all develop a bit differently.