Advent Children The Wolf

[Emone]

ahh... my brother everytime he watches ff7 ac he never shuts up about it! well personally i think it represents cloud's lonliness... but i don't know... i should contact who made it and ask... lol, like he'd ever reply!

 

[Dimix1]

I remmember reading the wolf is a symbole of the lonliness of CLoud loosing both zakc and aerith but i reckon at the same time the Wolf is also Zack aswell.. i guess we will not really know..

 

[The Witch]

Uhh, I swear it was there to show Cloud's guilt? Like the guilt he has over Aerith and Zack's death.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It is a symbol of Cloud's guilt and loneliness. While it is perfectly understandable to think that it represents Zack given where it first appeared, it represents Cloud's guilt and subsequent alienation from those who make him happy. Once the guilt is lifted, his loneliness can vanish, and he can return to the source of his happiness- his life as part of the 'family of four' with Tifa, Denzel and Marlene.

 

[The Witch]

No man, I swear the wolf solely represents Cloud's guilt, not his lonliness.
And it's a party of five by the way, Barret is Marlene's dad.

five is company :Barret, Marlene, Tifa, Denzel, and Cloud.
btw Cloud does care about all of his friends, Not just "the four".
So how can anyone say they are the only ones that matter to him?

 

[Ryushikaze]

No man, I swear the wolf solely represents Cloud's guilt, not his lonliness.
And it's a party of five by the way, Barret is Marlene's dad.

five is company :Barret, Marlene, Tifa, Denzel, and Cloud.
btw Cloud does care about all of his friends, Not just "the four".
So how can anyone say they are the only ones that matter to him?

Barret is not and has not ever been included in the family unit as described by the creators. It was a family of three (Cloud, Tifa, Marlene) and Denzel made four. If you wish to call it a family of 5, find evidence that SE has ever included him as part of the nuclear family that it speaks of when it refers to the family of 4. In short, take it up with SE, not me.

And no one has ever said that Cloud doesn't care about his friends. I do not even know where this remark originates. My comments about how he can return to the source of his happiness, return to 'those precious to him' now that his guilt is gone and his self imposed exile is over certainly do not preclude his caring about his other friends, but the other friends are not the ones he is worried about.

The Wolf is guilt and loneliness. The two are not mutually exclusive. Especially as it's Cloud's happiness which leads to his guilt which leads to his withdrawl.

 

[EVA]

No man, I swear the wolf solely represents Cloud's guilt, not his lonliness.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree. Cloud was not only guilty over Zack and Aerith's death, but also scared of ruining the happiness he had with his family, which is why he left them in AC.

And I agree with what was said about Barret---> He's more in the friends category. Barret had other things to do, and left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa's care.

 

[The Witch]

Barret is not and has not ever been included in the family unit as described by the creators. It was a family of three (Cloud, Tifa, Marlene) and Denzel made four. If you wish to call it a family of 5, find evidence that SE has ever included him as part of the nuclear family that it speaks of when it refers to the family of 4. In short, take it up with SE, not me.

Not like I don't believe you or anything, but do you happen to have that quote? I think I kinda remember something like that too, but I can't seem to think of where I heard it at. So I'd love to see a quote.

In the 10th Anniversary Ultimania it states that Barret runs to help in the crisis of his friends and family in AC when the city of Edge came under attack by the SHM. Doesn't this show that Barret is apart of the family?
Or does Barret have an other family we don't know of?

Not to mention, Tifa states in CoT that the family is made up of friends.
Barret is under the friend category just like Cloud, Marlene is his daughter, and Marlene is apart of the "family of four", so doesn't that automatically include Barret?
Or did Barret let Tifa legally adopt Marlene?

My comments about how he can return to the source of his happiness, return to 'those precious to him' now that his guilt is gone and his self imposed exile is over certainly do not preclude his caring about his other friends, but the other friends are not the ones he is worried about.

Ok, to you, what allows Cloud's guilt to lift exactly?
Because I know that the only time I can remember Nomura speaking of Cloud's guilt lifting is when Aerith is the one to lift his guilt.

"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

Cloud’s desire for forgiveness is focused on Aerith alone, not his best friend who died to save him, or the fact that Cloud could have felt happy with Barret, Tifa, and the kids.

So where do you guys get the idea that Cloud being happy is the main source for Cloud's guilt?

"Those precious to him" mean all of his friends, not just Tifa and the kids.
Doesn't Cloud say in AC that there isn't a thing he doesn't cherish?
And whats got Cloud so worried about Tifa and the kids? What exactly is Cloud so worried about?

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree. Cloud was not only guilty over Zack and Aerith's death, but also scared of ruining the happiness he had with his family, which is why he left them in AC.

Ok, I understand you two obviously think differently then me. I'm not going to try and force what I believe onto you both. And I'm not going to argue my points either, you two won't agree anyway.
Not to mention I don't feel like going back and forth with this right now.

I just happen to believe that the wolf only represents guilt. That's all I ever heard it compared to at least.
And even *if* the wolf is there because Cloud felt guilty over being happy, what exactly does that mean?

I'd like to know exactly what was stated in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania about Cloud leaving. What exactly did it say?"

And I agree with what was said about Barret---> He's more in the friends category. Barret had other things to do, and left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa's care.

But I will speak on this.
Barret says that he left Marlene with Tifa, he never says he left Marlene in both Tifa and Cloud's care.
Barret: "I left Marlene with Tifa. Since she's taken to her and all."- CoB

Umm, But again, I haven't really read any of the novella's in a while so I could be wrong about this. So will you please give me a quote where it says Barret left Marlene in Tifa and Cloud's care?

To me, this quote from Case of Tifa shows that Barret is apart of the family, in any way you'd like him to be.
Barret: "Keep the family together and keep at it!" - CoB

One more thing that could prove Barret is considered to be apart of the family, is that right after Barret leaves in CoT, this paragraph is said:

"Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being suppressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn't live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best."

The only people Tifa talks of and compares to a family is her companions and friends, and that just happens to include Barret, and every single other member apart of AVALANCHE.

Sorry if there are any mistakes in my post, I'm in a hurry.
TTYN </3

 

[EVA]

Well, I'll let Ryu answer the top half which I am sure he will. As for what you quote me on, I will respond.

I just happen to believe that the wolf only represents guilt. That's all I ever heard it compared to at least.
And even *if* the wolf is there because Cloud felt guilty over being happy, what exactly does that mean?

Right. My point is that you thinking that Cloud's wolf represents only guilt, is false information. You are allowed to believe that if you want though, I'm not stopping you. .. but I believe you did say: "Correct me if I'm wrong." And *if* the wolf is there because he felt guilty over being happy, it means that not only Zack and Aerith are the ones that he is guilty over.

I'd like to know exactly what was stated in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania about Cloud leaving. What exactly did it say?"

Since you are so adamant about having exact quotes, here is what is said about it:

"Quote: text near picture of Seventh Heaven, Cloud and Tifa
The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud..."

As for wanting a quote about Barret leaving Marlene with both Cloud and Tifa:

Early next morning, Barret setoff.

Behind him Marlene shouted, "Send me some letters! Phone too!"

Barret raised his artificial right arm up that had a machine gun attached to it. He kept walking without looking back. It was the back of a figure who had no other way to live than to fight.

I wonder just what kind of life he will find. I prayed that he would be able to stay far away from war. Not just take. I prayed he would be able to prove that he could give too.

"Make sure you be a "nice" kid!"

Cloud and Tifa glanced at each other, as they heard Barret's words. Be a "nice" kid?

"I'll take care of Cloud and Tifa!"

Barret turned round and shouted, "Take care!" His voice was a little shaky.

"Keep the family together and keep at it!"

And about that last part, 'keep the family together and keep at it', How do you know he's not referring to the Cloud+Tifa+Marlene family? If he's leaving, he's obviously referring to those three.

TTYN </3

Talk to me never? Well aren't you just bursting with intelligence. ;D Anyhow, if you understood Tifa's character more, perhaps you'd recognize what she meant in that quote you gave me. Her friends are very important to her, and they are separate from her personal family. The Ultimania makes that quite clear. :/

Quote: text near images of Tifa in the church with Marlene and smiling at her
I want to see Cloud -- Marlene's honest words, which reflected what Tifa felt in her own heart, caused her to smile. The present Tifa isn't just Cloud's childhood friend, but also the mother of the family they were forming in Edge.

AC - Edge~Midgar
With the help of his friends, he defeated Bahamut SHIN, which Kadaj's gang had summoned. He defeated Sephiroth after his Advent, and returned to Tifa and the children.

Notice how Tifa and the kids are seperate from the friends category.

Edit:
Btw, I am not following you around this Forum. I have better things to do with my life. Thanks for the accusation, though. It made me giggle. ;D

 

[Ryushikaze]

Not like I don't believe you or anything, but do you happen to have that quote? I think I kinda remember something like that too, but I can't seem to think of where I heard it at. So I'd love to see a quote.

From the 10th Anniversary Ulti translations-

In Advent Children
Believes in the strength not to yield to “Memories”,
Continues to support Cloud, who has closed his heart to others.
Age: 22
She opened the bar 7th Heaven in Edge, the city built following the aftermath of the Meteor Disaster. Still bearing the pain from her past, she lived together with Cloud, Marlene and Denzel, a boy who had sought shelter at the slum’s Church. However, Kadaj’s gang, who were planning the advent of Sephiroth, came attacking at the place where she was searching for Cloud, who had left home suddenly. Together with the help of her friends from two years ago, she stands at the battlefield in order to protect the present and future of her “family.”

I want to see Cloud — Marlene’s honest words, which reflected what Tifa felt in her own heart, caused her to smile. The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge.

After visiting several places together with Cloud and Barret, she opened the bar “Seventh Heaven” on the advice of those around her. She was given custody of Marlene from Barret, who had left on a journey. Together with Cloud, the three of them began living together.

· Edge
Cloud brought Denzel back from the slum’s church and from then, it became the four of them living together.

That's just glancing through. Barret has never been referred to as living with the other four.

I'll check RF later for its comments.

In the 10th Anniversary Ultimania it states that Barret runs to help in the crisis of his friends and family in AC when the city of Edge came under attack by the SHM. Doesn't this show that Barret is apart of the family?
Or does Barret have an other family we don't know of?

Not to mention, Tifa states in CoT that the family is made up of friends.
Barret is under the friend category just like Cloud, Marlene is his daughter, and Marlene is apart of the "family of four", so doesn't that automatically include Barret?
Or did Barret let Tifa legally adopt Marlene?

One can be family and not be nuclear family. In the sense that Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene live and act like a family, and consider themselves as such, they are a Nuclear family. Barrett and the rest of the family are distanced, and so are part of the extended family.
It is not, however, the extended family that Cloud leaves in his search for forgiveness, the ones he leaves are the nuclear family unit, who are, by dint of logic, 'the ones precious to him'

Ok, to you, what allows Cloud's guilt to lift exactly?
Because I know that the only time I can remember Nomura speaking of Cloud's guilt lifting is when Aerith is the one to lift his guilt.

"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

Cloud’s desire for forgiveness is focused on Aerith alone, not his best friend who died to save him, or the fact that Cloud could have felt happy with Barret, Tifa, and the kids.

Aerith is the symbol of Cloud's guilt, and the person he feels he needs to be forgiven by for his failures. What he really needed, however, was to forgive himself, as his talks with Tifa, Vincent, Aerith, and Marlene make him realize. And Cloud's loneliness is result of his happiness. The happier he becomes, the lonelier he becomes. Authorial fiat.

So where do you guys get the idea that Cloud being happy is the main source for Cloud's guilt?

"Those precious to him" mean all of his friends, not just Tifa and the kids.
Doesn't Cloud say in AC that there isn't a thing he doesn't cherish?
And whats got Cloud so worried about Tifa and the kids? What exactly is Cloud so worried about?

Losing them as a result of his failures.

Ok, I understand you two obviously think differently then me. I'm not going to try and force what I believe onto you both. And I'm not going to argue my points either, you two won't agree anyway.
Not to mention I don't feel like going back and forth with this right now.

I just happen to believe that the wolf only represents guilt. That's all I ever heard it compared to at least.
And even *if* the wolf is there because Cloud felt guilty over being happy, what exactly does that mean?

It means he is happy and feels undeserving of such.
I'd like to know exactly what was stated in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania about Cloud leaving. What exactly did it say?"

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.

The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…

With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.

Because he contracted Geostigma, he left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church.

With the help of his friends, he defeated Bahamut SHIN, which Kadaj’s gang had summoned. He defeated Sephiroth after his Advent, and returned to Tifa and the children.

But I will speak on this.
Barret says that he left Marlene with Tifa, he never says he left Marlene in both Tifa and Cloud's care.
Barret: "I left Marlene with Tifa. Since she's taken to her and all."- CoB

Umm, But again, I haven't really read any of the novella's in a while so I could be wrong about this. So will you please give me a quote where it says Barret left Marlene in Tifa and Cloud's care?

Look up. BTW, if you are quoting CoB, don't forget the 'I guess it's the woman who wears the pants' line. I love that one.

Also, From Cloud's timeline...

· Edge
After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.

T

o me, this quote from Case of Tifa shows that Barret is apart of the family, in any way you'd like him to be.
Barret: "Keep the family together and keep at it!" - CoB

One more thing that could prove Barret is considered to be apart of the family, is that right after Barret leaves in CoT, this paragraph is said:

"Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being suppressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn't live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best."

The only people Tifa talks of and compares to a family is her companions and friends, and that just happens to include Barret, and every single other member apart of AVALANCHE.

Sorry if there are any mistakes in my post, I'm in a hurry.
TTYN </3

Again I simply make a distinction between Nuclear and extended family. Barret and AVALANCHE are extended family to all at 7th Heaven but Marlene with regards to Barret. It does not mean they are not important, but there IS s distinction drawn between the unit of the people who are part of the 'family' that lives at the seventh heaven and those who are outside this unit.

Now, may I ask a question in return? You believe that Cloud loves Aerith romantically, yes? What makes you believe that he loves her to an extent greater than anyone else in the party loves her, or more than he loves anyone else? Please provide specific examples, if you would, so I can verify what you're talking about, please.




Addendum: Source on translations: Thelifestream.net
ACF's translators' new digs.

 

[The Witch]

[Right. My point is that you thinking that Cloud's wolf represents only guilt, is false information. You are allowed to believe that if you want though, I'm not stopping you. .. but I believe you did say: "Correct me if I'm wrong." And *if* the wolf is there because he felt guilty over being happy, it means that not only Zack and Aerith are the ones that he is guilty over.

Ok, do you have any quotes stating that Cloud feeling happy is another source of his guilt? Because all I see is *you* stating that. And neither of you have answered my question yet.
Where do you guys get the idea that Cloud being happy is the main source for Cloud's guilt?

And about that last part, 'keep the family together and keep at it', How do you know he's not referring to the Cloud+Tifa+Marlene family? If he's leaving, he's obviously referring to those three.

What causes me to believe that Barret is apart of the family is that Barret is Marlenes father and Tifa states that her family is made up of Friends and Companions.
What exactly do you think Barret is to Tifa?
Not a companion, or just not a friend? Because he's both to her.
And in this quote that's mentioned right after Barret left, Tifa talks about what the family does and who's apart of it;
"Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being suppressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn't live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best."
Tifa right there states that what she thinks a family does is comfort and encourage each other. Do you know what that part of the story is about? It's about Barret leaving to settle his past with his family comforting and encouraging him.
Tifa is encouraging Barret to settle his past, and she calls that a family.

Talk to me never? Well aren't you just bursting with intelligence. ;D

I'll gladly ignore your insult

Notice how Tifa and the kids are seperate from the friends category.

They are seperate for once. Tifa and the kids are family also, Cloud, Denzel, Marlene are the kids.
"Tifa thought he was just like a kid. It may have been a little sad that Cloud had found another world that she didn't know about but, the fact that his world was expanding was a welcoming thought. Yes, it was similar to the feelings a mother would have. Tifa walked Cloud outside and was enjoying the new feeling that was blooming in her."-CoT

While Tifa is categorized as the Mother, with mother feelings for Cloud. Ehh, I personally agree with you, Cloud does have a family with the children, Barret and Tifa. xD What exactly does that mean to you?

Edit:
Btw, I am not following you around this Forum. I have better things to do with my life. Thanks for the accusation, though. It made me giggle. ;D

So you're not fallowing me around, huh? Seems like it. It might not be on *this* forum, but it definitely was on the CloudxAerith Froums that you were banned from.

FYI, I just looked at your account information on your page, and I will not be responding to you anymore. Because you're BPMM, and quite frankly I don't really like to speak to you, which is why I have you on my ignore list on every forum I go to.
So, DO NOT bother responding to my post, I won't even look at it. oked:

That's just glancing through. Barret has never been referred to as living with the other four.
I'll check RF later for its comments.

First off, thanks for the quotes :3
This has to be the only thing in all those quotes that seem to explain anything.
After visiting several places together with Cloud and Barret, she opened the bar “Seventh Heaven” on the advice of those around her. She was given custody of Marlene from Barret, who had left on a journey. Together with Cloud, the three of them began living together.

This just says Cloud, the kids, and Tifa lived together. It never says Barret isn't apart of the family. And just because Barret left to go on his journy doesn't mean that he was taken out of the equation eaither. Otherwise, when Cloud left to go live in Aerith's church in AC he would also be taken out of the family category.

One can be family and not be nuclear family. In the sense that Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene live and act like a family, and consider themselves as such, they are a Nuclear family. Barrett and the rest of the family are distanced, and so are part of the extended family.

No, never has Cloud(or SE) stated he feels like the "daddy" of the Lockhart family. It's impossible for Barret to be concsidered as the "extended family", he's the father of the child you all are insisting is apart of this family. If anything, that doesn't nominate Cloud as the father of the family, that would go to Barret. Tifa's the mother, Barret's actually the only father of the entire family, and Marlene, Denzel, and Cloud are left under the heading "kids". Proven with the qoute from CoT, where Tifa states she has mother feelings for Cloud. How can mother feelings Tifa have for Cloud relate to Cloud being one of the parent figures in the family? It doesn't add up.

Aerith is the symbol of Cloud's guilt, and the person he feels he needs to be forgiven by for his failures. What he really needed, however, was to forgive himself, as his talks with Tifa, Vincent, Aerith, and Marlene make him realize.

That's true, Cloud did need to forgive himself. He needed to forgive himself because Aerith (the one he felt guilty for) never blamed him for her death. Cloud blamed himself for the death of Aerith. Aerith never needed to forgive him because she didn't blame him for anything. It's not all of his "failures" that is the main source of Cloud's guilt, it's the mere fact that Cloud thought he let Aerith die, simple as that.
Yes, Cloud does infact feel guilty over his mother, and best friends death, but no where does it mention his mother or Zack when speaking about what Cloud feels most guilty about.
Or, at least that's what I know. I could be wrong, do you have any quotes?

And Cloud's loneliness is result of his happiness. The happier he becomes, the lonelier he becomes. Authorial fiat.

Of course Cloud was lonely, his best friend's dead, he left all of his friends because he felt guilty over a girls death, and he lost Aerith. But can you explain to me how feeling happy makes Cloud feel lonely?

Losing them as a result of his failures.

How does Cloud's past failures result in him thinking he'll lose his family with Barret, Tifa, and the kids? I always thought that Cloud was afraid because he knew he couldn't protect them?
"Cloud: 'Tifa... I'm not fit to help anyone. Not my family, not my friends, nobody'."

It means he is happy and feels undeserving of such.

Why does he feel undiserving? It can't be because of his "past failures" either, because the only thing Nomura ever mentions Cloud is guilty over is Aerith's death.

· Edge
After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.

Here we go, this is the quote I wanted to see. xD What is this quote in, The ultimania?

Now, may I ask a question in return? You believe that Cloud loves Aerith romantically, yes? What makes you believe that he loves her to an extent greater than anyone else in the party loves her, or more than he loves anyone else? Please provide specific examples, if you would, so I can verify what you're talking about, please.

I'd gladly answer your question :3 But I think that's way off topic, I don't want to get in trouble for possibly spamming. Could we perhaps finish this discussion in PMs, or another thead?
I'll answer your question once, but if you reply, which I'm sure you will. Send it in a PM, please.

*Yes, I happen to believe Cloud and Aerith love eachother romantically.
Here are a couple reasons;

For one, the ending of KH, finding out that Cloud was looking for someone that he compared to his "light", then reuniting with Aerith at the end of the game, while the rest of the Disney love story characters did the same thing, I kinda put two and two together.
KH was the first time I saw FINAL FANTASY VII characters, so I guess seeing them meeting in the credits, with the rest of my favorite love stories gave me the impression that they were romantically involved.

*The official commercial for the game helped out alot too.
"A story of a love that could never be" was mentioned during the scene Aerith died. Again, I put two and two together.
Here's the link if you never saw it before :3

And then when AC came out, there was a scan from a Japanese gaming magazine that had a picture of Aerith and Cloud, that had the words, "meeting her again, that is my dream." referring to Cloud and how he feels towards Aerith.

And then there are mulitple events in VII that indicate Cloud loves Aerith.
*They date,
*Cosmo Canyon; Cloud "But I'm... we're here for you, right?"
*Tifa's "Cloud and I grew up together. Nothing more."
*This quote from MoTP; "She watched Cloud's face which looked as if his heart was going to fall apart from the sadness of losing her, the anger and hate he had for her being taken from him."- Maiden of The Planet
*The fact that Aerith's forgiveness is what Cloud wanted more then Anything.

*That Cloud thought Aerith brought Denzel to him, then wanting to take care of him.

*I don't have the quote, but there is a quote somewhere that speaks about how Cloud thinks Aerith's eyes are beautiful and that when he bought a flower from her for one gil it was worth it because he got to see her smile.
I think it's in Cloud's profile, here's the exact quote of a part of it;
"If this smile only costs one gil, it is a good purchase" ~Cloud Strife.

And pretty much all of Aerith's death scene proves Cloud loves Aerith.
There are a ton more fact's I could show you, but I really must go now. So if you reply please PM me, ok?

TTYNuttahere:

 

[Saints&Storms]

No man, I swear the wolf solely represents Cloud's guilt, not his lonliness.
And it's a party of five by the way, Barret is Marlene's dad.

five is company :Barret, Marlene, Tifa, Denzel, and Cloud.
btw Cloud does care about all of his friends, Not just "the four".
So how can anyone say they are the only ones that matter to him?

I'm only going to post once here but, Barret is there with them in DoC as is Cloud and if Barret being there doesn't count then Neither does Cloud. Barret IS a part of the Family, its just whether or Not They will accept it
Tifa Obviously thinks of ALL of her friends as her Family NOT just Cloud Denzel and Marlene . Thats Hella mean to just leave poor 'ol Barret out, not to mention plain ignoring the points that are obvious of the Compilation of FFVII......... Remember ya can't choose whats proof or not people

Talk to me never? Well aren't you just bursting with intelligence. ;D

Just cause you put a " ;D " Next to it doesn't make it nice.

Bye Now




Just for Reference

......Can You See Him?
​

 

[EVA]

I'm BPMM?! Shocker. And for your information, I ASKED to be banned from the CxA Forums, because I no longer wanted to be part of something so corrupt. The thing about me is that I like CloudxAerith as a fan pairing. But in those Forums, you have to be foaming rabid spit at the mouth to be treated with any ounce of respect. I don't post there anymore, but I do read it for the lulz. I happened to notice that you posted something about me and frankly I find it funny that you think you can talk about someone behind their back and expect them not to know.

Even if you don't respond, I'm going to post my response because I have the evidence you asked for.
You not responding, is code for: You beat me.

Where do you guys get the idea that Cloud being happy is the main source for Cloud's guilt?

Here my dear, are some quotes:

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened "Seventh Heaven" bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj's gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.

The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud...

With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.

He defeated Sephiroth after his Advent, and returned to Tifa and the children.

And I think you're misunderstanding. Cloud is happy and like Ryu said, feels he is undeserving of this feeling. This is why he leaves them alone. Notice how Cloud in the end, returns to Tifa and the children. He is no longer scared to be happy. Note the: "I'm not alone. Not anymore."

Tifa is encouraging Barret to settle his past, and she calls that a family.

Did you ignore what was posted before about friends being a different type of family? Did you not comprehend the explanations given? Also please read carefully:

, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family.

Barret is not mentioned as a part of THIS family.

While Tifa is categorized as the Mother, with mother feelings for Cloud.

She said her feelings were like a mothers. And, that doesn't mean she is literally A mother to Cloud. Tifa is described as the mother of the family she and Cloud were forming with the children in Edge. Tifa does love Cloud. It would not make sense for her to have purely motherly feelings towards Cloud. -laughs a little- Tifa being like a mother, is part of her personality. It doesn't mean SHE IS CLOUDS MOTHER. It means she is family-oriented.

Quote time.

Tifa, an important woman to him

Apart from being Cloud's childhood friend,
she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him. Although she seems spirited and cheerful, she actually has a family-oriented and modest personality, often paying attention to her surroundings.

The present Tifa isn't just Cloud's childhood friend, but also the mother of the 'family' they were forming in Edge.

Aerith is actually referred to as a Mother of the planet. Also, when Aerith appears in front of Cloud (actually, behind him) in AC, it is stated that:

Showing up in front of people feeling pained and confused,
Her figure seems like a loving mother.

In that sense she is like a mother watching over the entire planet, and it gives the feeling that she lives in every part of the world.

As before, I leave the other half to who it is intended for.

Just cause you put a " ;D " Next to it doesn't make it nice.

Good. I wasn't intending it to be as such.

 

[Bambi]

Ok guys, lets try and keep it civil in here and remember the topic at hand

I don't want to come back and find that the thread has veered off into another LTD

Thankyou

 

[The Witch]

It won't, or I'll try not to let it come to that. I didn't even want to bring up the LTD in the first place. I was just stating what I thought the Wolf represented. And from what I've read and seen, it is said to represent Cloud's guilt, not his happiness.

 

[EVA]

I won't either, I was just concerned about knowledge of the facts about the wolf/the family/mother issues. I never brought up any LTD.

Well Cali, I agree to disagree with you. Have a fabulous day.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Juliet, hopefully this is not too LTDy. After this, I shall try and seek an alternate venue for the more off topic portions of this discussion.

Ok, do you have any quotes stating that Cloud feeling happy is another source of his guilt? Because all I see is *you* stating that. And neither of you have answered my question yet.
Where do you guys get the idea that Cloud being happy is the main source for Cloud's guilt?

Question: Did you indeed read any of the quotes I provided? Because I do not think you did.

What causes me to believe that Barret is apart of the family is that Barret is Marlenes father and Tifa states that her family is made up of Friends and Companions.

And I do not dispute this. HOWEVER, the creators think differently. They do not include Barret as part of the nuclear family of 7TH heaven at any point. They even state that Cloud Tifa and Marlene only begin living together at the 7th heaven once Barrett leaves, which matches what is seen in CoT when he leaves once construction is complete.

What exactly do you think Barret is to Tifa?
Not a companion, or just not a friend? Because he's both to her.
And in this quote that's mentioned right after Barret left, Tifa talks about what the family does and who's apart of it;
"Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being suppressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn't live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best."
Tifa right there states that what she thinks a family does is comfort and encourage each other. Do you know what that part of the story is about? It's about Barret leaving to settle his past with his family comforting and encouraging him.
Tifa is encouraging Barret to settle his past, and she calls that a family.
I'll gladly ignore your insult

Again, there is a distinction between an extensive family and a nuclear one. There is also a distinction, if we wish to make it, between who Tifa includes in the family, and who Cloud does.

They are seperate for once. Tifa and the kids are family also, Cloud, Denzel, Marlene are the kids.

"Tifa thought he was just like a kid. It may have been a little sad that Cloud had found another world that she didn't know about but, the fact that his world was expanding was a welcoming thought. Yes, it was similar to the feelings a mother would have. Tifa walked Cloud outside and was enjoying the new feeling that was blooming in her."-CoT

While Tifa is categorized as the Mother, with mother feelings for Cloud. Ehh, I personally agree with you, Cloud does have a family with the children, Barret and Tifa. xD What exactly does that mean to you?

It means you're not reading everything. Tifa considers Cloud the papa of the two small chidlren later in CoT, and worries if he still loves her. Whatever motherly feelings she has towards Cloud, they A: do not overwrite her other feelings, as women can and often have maternal instincts towards their men, and B: are actually irrelevent, since it's Cloud's feelings that matter.
And And again, Barret has never been included in the 7th Heaven family unit. What makes you think he was?

First off, thanks for the quotes :3
This has to be the only thing in all those quotes that seem to explain anything.
After visiting several places together with Cloud and Barret, she opened the bar “Seventh Heaven” on the advice of those around her. She was given custody of Marlene from Barret, who had left on a journey. Together with Cloud, the three of them began living together.

This just says Cloud, the kids, and Tifa lived together. It never says Barret isn't apart of the family. And just because Barret left to go on his journy doesn't mean that he was taken out of the equation eaither. Otherwise, when Cloud left to go live in Aerith's church in AC he would also be taken out of the family category.

They do mention that Cloud stops living at 7th heaven for a short period, and then they say he returns to living at the 7th heaven.
Now then, I'm becoming a broken record, but it never says Barret is part of the nuclear family. What makes you think he is?
For example, why does Denzel not ever consider Barret, when he includes Cloud and Tifa as taking care of him during CoD?

No, never has Cloud(or SE) stated he feels like the "daddy" of the Lockhart family. It's impossible for Barret to be concsidered as the "extended family", he's the father of the child you all are insisting is apart of this family.

And? He is part of her nuclear family, but not the nuclear family of the rest. In other words, Marlene is both in Cloud's Nuclear family and Barret's nuclear family, but neither Cloud or Barret is in the other's nuclear family. Think venne diagrams.

If anything, that doesn't nominate Cloud as the father of the family, that would go to Barret.

Tifa and Denzel, at least, think otherwise.

Tifa's the mother, Barret's actually the only father of the entire family, and Marlene, Denzel, and Cloud are left under the heading "kids". Proven with the qoute from CoT, where Tifa states she has mother feelings for Cloud. How can mother feelings Tifa have for Cloud relate to Cloud being one of the parent figures in the family? It doesn't add up.

Actually, she has 'feelings like a mother would have', but also considers Cloud, as I mentioned above, as the father of the two children. Have you actually read CoT? The passage is actually hard to miss.
While Barrett is Marlene's adoptive father, he is ABSENT from the 7th heaven for the two year gap til AC and in the gap between AC and DC as well. He is not spoken of in context with the unit of those living at 7th Heaven.

That's true, Cloud did need to forgive himself. He needed to forgive himself because Aerith (the one he felt guilty for) never blamed him for her death. Cloud blamed himself for the death of Aerith. Aerith never needed to forgive him because she didn't blame him for anything. It's not all of his "failures" that is the main source of Cloud's guilt, it's the mere fact that Cloud thought he let Aerith die, simple as that.
Yes, Cloud does infact feel guilty over his mother, and best friends death, but no where does it mention his mother or Zack when speaking about what Cloud feels most guilty about.
Or, at least that's what I know. I could be wrong, do you have any quotes?

Aerith is the symbol of his sins, but failing his friends, plural, is Cloud's perceived sin. Seriously, go read the quotes, and read them all together. Trying to analyze them in isolation is just silly.

Of course Cloud was lonely, his best friend's dead, he left all of his friends because he felt guilty over a girls death, and he lost Aerith. But can you explain to me how feeling happy makes Cloud feel lonely?

I have provided a perfectly parsimonious contruction above, but why would I need to? Executive fiat. He does, and that's the end of it.

How does Cloud's past failures result in him thinking he'll lose his family with Barret, Tifa, and the kids? I always thought that Cloud was afraid because he knew he couldn't protect them?
"Cloud: 'Tifa... I'm not fit to help anyone. Not my family, not my friends, nobody'."

Executive Fiat. His failures result in him thinking he'll lose his family with Tifa and the kids.

Why does he feel undiserving? It can't be because of his "past failures" either, because the only thing Nomura ever mentions Cloud is guilty over is Aerith's death.

Why can't it? And while you are incorrect that Aerith is the only thing mentioned, even if it were, that does not mean only saying one thing is the case is the same as saying only one thing is the case. In simple equational form- Nomura only says != Nomura says only.

Here we go, this is the quote I wanted to see. xD What is this quote in, The ultimania?

:oints at where he cited his sources previously::

I'd gladly answer your question :3 But I think that's way off topic, I don't want to get in trouble for possibly spamming. Could we perhaps finish this discussion in PMs, or another thead?
I'll answer your question once, but if you reply, which I'm sure you will. Send it in a PM, please.

I only conduct debates in the open in the interests of full disclosure. If necessary, I can request dispensation, or we can conduct this elsewhere, or you will simply have to deal with our correspondance being copied and reproduced verbatim elsewhere.

*Yes, I happen to believe Cloud and Aerith love eachother romantically.
Here are a couple reasons;

For one, the ending of KH, finding out that Cloud was looking for someone that he compared to his "light",

But that never happened. Cloud was never looking for someone he compared to his light. He said he was looking for somebody, but he never said it was his light. He was looking for Sephiroth. His darkness. Both Cloud and Aerith say this in KH: Final Mix. She even says that Cloud left the Hollow Bastion gang to search for Sephy.

then reuniting with Aerith at the end of the game, while the rest of the Disney love story characters did the same thing, I kinda put two and two together.

Except he was utterly nonplussed to have been dragged to hollow bastion by Cid. He didn't even react. And if we're bringing KH and 'light' into it, what about KH2 and Tifa being his light? And that's undeniable. Nomura even said so in an interview. Same interview he said Cloud was running from 'something warm' like he was in AC, I think.
BTW, That scene was framed between Minnie and Daisy and Pinnochio and Jheppeto. Love stories those ain't.

KH was the first time I saw FINAL FANTASY VII characters, so I guess seeing them meeting in the credits, with the rest of my favorite love stories gave me the impression that they were romantically involved.

So, you decided based on few second's judgement, basically? Have you played FF7 or other portions of the compilation aside from AC?

*The official commercial for the game helped out alot too.
"A story of a love that could never be" was mentioned during the scene Aerith died. Again, I put two and two together.
Here's the link if you never saw it before :3

It's an American Marketing commercial. The FF6 commercial showed Mog zotting monsters into the game with godlike power. Marketing is as trustworthy as the guy who just stabbed you and took your wallet and wants your credit information because he's a nigerian prince.
Anyways, the commercial also says 'a hate that always was' with Sephiroth, which isn't true. Cloud used to idolize Sephiroth, and Sephiroth was not hateful towards Cloud or humanity until 5 years prior. Even if the commercial was reliable, it says 'that could never be'. Means it's doomed anyways. Aerith never had a chance. From what we learn in game, this makes a lot of sense.

And then when AC came out, there was a scan from a Japanese gaming magazine that had a picture of Aerith and Cloud, that had the words, "meeting her again, that is my dream." referring to Cloud and how he feels towards Aerith.

And there were also magazines saying Cloud and Tifa ran an orphanage, and ones saying WCM was Sephiroth. Third party magazines are NOT trustworthy sources. Unless you also want to include the ones that describe Tifa as 'The love of Cloud's life' or whatever phrase they used...

And then there are mulitple events in VII that indicate Cloud loves Aerith.
*They date,

If by 'date' you mean 'she drags Cloud out on a jaunt around Gold Saucer in which she admits to not knowing who Cloud really is and to focusing on his similarities to Zack', then yes, they date. Unless Tifa, Barret, or Yuffie does instead.

*Cosmo Canyon; Cloud "But I'm... we're here for you, right?"

Cloud telling Aerith that she can't be alone because she's surrounded by people isn't an indication that he loves her. It's an indication he doesn't understand her troubles.

*Tifa's "Cloud and I grew up together. Nothing more."

How does that say ANYTHING about Cloud's emotions? It's also from well before Tifa and Cloud are aware of the other's feelings. It's also a lie. Tifa has a romantic interest in Cloud even then.

*This quote from MoTP; "She watched Cloud's face which looked as if his heart was going to fall apart from the sadness of losing her, the anger and hate he had for her being taken from him."- Maiden of The Planet

This sounds like how he looked when Cloud died.
Also, if you do wish to include MOTP, it hurts the C/A cause far more than it helps, provided you read past the first chapter.
But SE has pretty much just plain ignored Benny's unsupervised novella, and has seen fit to contravene it in DoC, CC, and the Ultimanias.

*The fact that Aerith's forgiveness is what Cloud wanted more then Anything.

Yes. Forgiveness, for his sin. Not her love. Not to be with her. Forgiveness from the symbol of his failures.
Of course, that's the english translation. The original line is "I want forgiveness. Yes. That's it. Forgiveness."

*That Cloud thought Aerith brought Denzel to him, then wanting to take care of him.

Who he agreed was not brought to him, but to Him and Tifa.

*I don't have the quote, but there is a quote somewhere that speaks about how Cloud thinks Aerith's eyes are beautiful and that when he bought a flower from her for one gil it was worth it because he got to see her smile.

I think it's in Cloud's profile, here's the exact quote of a part of it;
"If this smile only costs one gil, it is a good purchase" ~Cloud Strife.

In Cloud's profile? Where? I've never seen such a thing. I think you're mistaking Cloud for Zack. Aerith did. It's perfectly understandable.

Seriously, location and/or scan of this profile, if you would. It has appeared in no first party source I have ever seen, and I'm rather well versed in the Compilation.

And pretty much all of Aerith's death scene proves Cloud loves Aerith.

Based on? He reacted to her death the same as he reacted to Zack. Unless you want to suggest he loved Zack too.

There are a ton more fact's I could show you,

Grammar lesson: You do not add an apostrophe when pluralizing a word that does not end in an S.
And please, do show me these facts.

but I really must go now. So if you reply please PM me, ok?

No. I will not PM you, unless you want me posting the correspondence in public for full disclosure. I do not like unseen argumentation. If you are truly pressed for time, I can be patient and wait til you find the time to respond, provided the wait is a reasonable time frame.

TTYN

Is this supposed to be clever? Because coming back after saying it once kinda kills the impact.

I'm only going to post once here but, Barret is there with them in DoC as is Cloud and if Barret being there doesn't count then Neither does Cloud. Barret IS a part of the Family, its just whether or Not They will accept it

Barret is part of the assault on Midgar in DoC, and he's working on the ground force with Cloud and Tifa. He is never seen at the 7th heaven in AC or DoC.

Tifa Obviously thinks of ALL of her friends as her Family NOT just Cloud Denzel and Marlene . Thats Hella
mean to just leave poor 'ol Barret out, not to mention plain ignoring the points that are obvious of the Compilation of FFVII......... Remember ya can't choose whats proof or not people

Leaving him out of the group of people who are the nuclear family? Out of the group of four who live at 7th heaven and are in Cloud's honored photo on his desk that shows only him, Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene?
BTW, I would not be accusing people of picking and choosing, Ume. Glass houses and stones, after all.

Just for Reference

......Can You See Him?

I see him in a truck assaulting Midgar. I do not see him in a family photo of the four people who live at 7th heaven that does not also include the rest of AVALANCHE. I do not see him considering himself a part of the family in his own story. I do not see SE including him as part of the nuclear family of the 7th heaven in their sourcebooks. I question why you people do.

It won't, or I'll try not to let it come to that. I didn't even want to bring up the LTD in the first place. I was just stating what I thought the Wolf represented. And from what I've read and seen, it is said to represent Cloud's guilt, not his happiness.

No one has stated that the wolf represents Cloud's happiness. But that Cloud's happiness leads to his guilt is simple truth in fact. It is stated that his happiness leads to his guilt and to his loneliness by the creators.
A happiness of living with Tifa and the kids.

Out of curiosity, have you ever heard of survivor's guilt? It's when someone blames themselves for the death of another, especially when they feel there was something that could be done to prevent it. Soldiers have to deal with it when they come home to 'normal life'.

 

[The Witch]

Ohh, the humanity!

Grammar lesson: You do not add an apostrophe when pluralizing a word that does not end in an S.

I know that. It's what people call a mistake. Look at my other posts, do you see me doing the same thing over and over again? No, no you don't.

Now, *if* I did happen to put an apostrophe before my "s" when making a word plural in any other post, then and only then, would it be correct for you to correct me on it. But you used a small mistake that I made once, and tried to start a fight with it.

If you are that desperate for a fight please go fight with the many Clotis you hangout with. They are a lot more willing then I am.

Question. Why are you so stuck on keeping a possible future debate in a thread that isn't about that topic?
It is against the rules, right?
I would rather not have another topic closed down because of the attacks.

And because you didn't do as I asked, and kept the discussion in the wrong place, I will not be responding to your post about the LTD here. But if you would like to keep it up, repost the messages in a PM to me, You can even post them in your Cloti thread to your Cloti friends. I will not mind if you do so.

FYI: I say TTYN because I think Paris Hilton is hilarious, hence the reason I use it. I don't mean it literally when I say it, if I did, I would use "Talk to you never" instead of "TTYN". It's more serious, don't you think?

I'll respond to your full post tomorrow. I have better things to do at the moment.:cassy:

Now, TTFN.

 

[Infinity D]

If you are that desperate for a fight please go fight with the many Clotis you hangout with. They are a lot more willing then I am.

GAWD. Can we stop with all this "CLOTI", "CLERITH" polarization thing.

Sorry, I have nothing to say about the wolf. Please do not delete my post.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I know that. It's what people call a mistake. Look at my other posts, do you see me doing the same thing over and over again? No, no you don't.

Now, *if* I did happen to put an apostrophe before my "s" when making a word plural in any other post, then and only then, would it be correct for you to correct me on it. But you used a small mistake that I made once, and tried to start a fight with it.

If you are that desperate for a fight please go fight with the many Clotis you hangout with. They are a lot more willing then I am.

I'm sorry you think I was attempting to start a fight, Cali. I saw your mistake, it irked me, and I wished to make sure it did not keep happening. That is all. I intended no quarrel or menace. That you projected such onto me, however, suggests that you have been viewing this exchange as conflict, instead of a friendly discussion.

Question. Why are you so stuck on keeping a possible future debate in a thread that isn't about that topic?

I'm not. I simply do not wish to take the discussion to PM. I far prefer open correspondence.

It is against the rules, right?
I would rather not have another topic closed down because of the attacks.[/quote]

What attacks? You seem to view me as a villian, my child, but I am nothing of the sort.

And because you didn't do as I asked, and kept the discussion in the wrong place, I will not be responding to your post about the LTD here.

Whatever. It's no skin off of my nose. I want this conversation moved elsewhere anyways, no offense to the board or its administrators.
I believe I invited you to http://forums.thelifestream.net/ to continue this. I know I gave your friend Ume the link and she has joined.

But if you would like to keep it up, repost the messages in a PM to me, You can even post them in your Cloti thread to your Cloti friends. I will not mind if you do so.

'my' Cloti thread? I have no Cloti thread. I post in one, but it's hardly mine, and I post in there primarily for the lulz involved.
Y'know, I feel I need to point out that I'm not emotionally invested in who Cloud ends up with, any more than I am that Hojo is Sephiroth's dad or that Sephiroth was in control and Jenova his puppet. I simply listen to the totality of the facts in their proper context.

FYI: I say TTYN because I think Paris Hilton is hilarious, hence the reason I use it. I don't mean it literally when I say it, if I did, I would use "Talk to you never" instead of "TTYN". It's more serious, don't you think?

No, I think both are rather asinine. Knowing that it originates from Hilton does not improve matters. It really comes across as more than a bit daft, to be honest.

I'll respond to your full post tomorrow. I have better things to do at the moment.

As you like. I'm certainly not waiting with bated breath. Whenever is fine, just so long as you do respond to the points I've raised.