What are the "true" hang ups of 12.

[Sheechiibii]

you could say that about ff7.

You could say it about most Final Fantasy games. They've all changed and been different from the one before it. That's part of the series, it's a Final Fantasy staple itself.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Yeah, but the point is that ff12 is still a strong Final Fantasy game.

 

[Captain Squee]

I beg to differ. If I had to describe FFXII in two words it would be "Game Simulator." It's super easy. It's so easy that when facing Yismat, I simply walked away from my console. I took a shower, cooked dinner, ate it, went on a walk. The game played itself and I won. "Hardest" boss in the game beat by a player that wasn't even in the room. Setting aside whether or not this is a Final Fantasy at its core, setting aside that it was made by what can be considered a titan of game making, setting aside the story, setting aside everything, I can honestly say this is one of the worst games of all time that I have ever played. Its structured in a way that you can control each character if you really want to, but the UI was definitely not designed to do this, I found it stressful rather than enjoyable. The closest this actually got were the quickenings, which was just button tapping. It was completely unnecessary and could drag on doing the same thing for what often felt like forever since you could string them together with so many of the same things.

At one point I had thought to myself that maybe it was just my mindset, so I went on to play other games that I enjoyed very much with the intention to come back. Eventually, I did, I picked up my saved game once again and decided to play it. Still hated the gameplay and the UI. My beef with the UI seems to be mine alone, nobody else has mentioned it, so I'll set that aside for the sake of better argument. At the end of the day, FFXII is not a game, it's an interactive movie, since you can make the game play itself, and it's structured as though that's how it's the default system. At best you choose what side quests to take, which is nothing special. At their core, games that play themselves are pathetic. The only thing bosses have going for them is high HP, which is not a fun fight. Yismat in example takes, literally, over 9000 hits to kill unless you do peak damage every hit. But what's that worth when you don't even need to be at the controller?

The true hang up of FFXII is the terrible gameplay. It's not a game, it's a game simulator. Ignoring whether or not it's a "strong FF game" the game as a game in itself is a weak game. Not enjoyable, 2/10

 

[Razberry Knight]

I beg to differ. If I had to describe FFXII in two words it would be "Game Simulator." It's super easy. It's so easy that when facing Yismat, I simply walked away from my console. I took a shower, cooked dinner, ate it, went on a walk.

Over an exageration, considering ATB is implemented, no game and i mean NO GAME can have that situation where you would have an entire day.

The game played itself and I won.

UNless you're using all the possible gambits, maybe...but...not as easy...

"Hardest" boss in the game beat by a player that wasn't even in the room.

Setting aside whether or not this is a Final Fantasy at its core, setting aside that it was made by what can be considered a titan of game making, setting aside the story, setting aside everything, I can honestly say this is one of the worst games of all time that I have ever played.

Ok....you set aside nearly the entire game....and now you're calling the worst? you have to take account of "everything" that the game offers. thats something why people genuinely HATE finalfantasy13 with a PASSION. the hate this game so hard because it genuinely deserves it. because when people hate it NOTHING is put aside. everything is being considered, the story, the gameplay, the freedom, the options.

to most people it had no redeeming qualities, and by utting aside everything that could be redeemable, thats like wanting to call it the worst, without trully appreciating what it does have.

Its structured in a way that you can control each character if you really want to, but the UI was definitely not designed to do this, I found it stressful rather than enjoyable. The closest this actually got were the quickenings, which was just button tapping. It was completely unnecessary and could drag on doing the same thing for what often felt like forever since you could string them together with so many of the same things.

If it was so stressful....you wouldn't have called it the easiest game.

At the end of the day, FFXII is not a game, it's an interactive movie, since you can make the game play itself, and it's structured as though that's how it's the default system.

That is only one option....and even then, you can set it up so it doesn't play itself but still be useful. You still get to play the game, and you still have the choices

At best you choose what side quests to take, which is nothing special. At their core, games that play themselves are pathetic. The only thing bosses have going for them is high HP, which is not a fun fight. Yismat in example takes, literally, over 9000 hits to kill unless you do peak damage every hit. But what's that worth when you don't even need to be at the controller?

again...you chose autoplay vs manual play. and here's a big differnce between FF13 and FF12. when you're playing with autobattle in 13, it feels just as tedious to battle manually. Unlike 12 where you have more room to customize and again the "option" to control only one character, you can either choose to have a difficult time by not using gambits, choose to make the game as easy as possibly as optimizing the gambits, or find some middle ground. but the option is there.

The true hang up of FFXII is the terrible gameplay. It's not a game, it's a game simulator. Ignoring whether or not it's a "strong FF game" the game as a game in itself is a weak game. Not enjoyable, 2/10

Thats only one hang up....but even then....this is something you yourself chose to play the game. and unlike another game, you had one way of experiencing the game.

such as 13....Ff12 does a heck lot better than 13.

 

[Captain Squee]

Over an exageration, considering ATB is implemented, no game and i mean NO GAME can have that situation where you would have an entire day.


UNless you're using all the possible gambits, maybe...but...not as easy...





Ok....you set aside nearly the entire game....and now you're calling the worst? you have to take account of "everything" that the game offers. thats something why people genuinely HATE finalfantasy13 with a PASSION. the hate this game so hard because it genuinely deserves it. because when people hate it NOTHING is put aside. everything is being considered, the story, the gameplay, the freedom, the options.

to most people it had no redeeming qualities, and by utting aside everything that could be redeemable, thats like wanting to call it the worst, without trully appreciating what it does have.



If it was so stressful....you wouldn't have called it the easiest game.



That is only one option....and even then, you can set it up so it doesn't play itself but still be useful. You still get to play the game, and you still have the choices


again...you chose autoplay vs manual play. and here's a big differnce between FF13 and FF12. when you're playing with autobattle in 13, it feels just as tedious to battle manually. Unlike 12 where you have more room to customize and again the "option" to control only one character, you can either choose to have a difficult time by not using gambits, choose to make the game as easy as possibly as optimizing the gambits, or find some middle ground. but the option is there.



Thats only one hang up....but even then....this is something you yourself chose to play the game. and unlike another game, you had one way of experiencing the game.

such as 13....Ff12 does a heck lot better than 13.

I don't think you understood my point. Most of the arguments in this thread were about whether or not this was a true FF game, and the way I see it, if the titles says it is, then it is, even if it's different. Change happens. This is, however, my only view. I say I set aside each of those things because what a game is, is a game. A game is not a title, not a developing team, not a production team, and while the story is important, a good story means nothing in a bad game. I set aside those things because we're not talking about that. What I meant to get across was that I was looking at the game as purely a game, something to play and have fun. I was trying to say that if it were made by any other company, put on any other console, and had any other title, but was kept the same, it would be as I said it was. You and I seem to have differing opinions on what "the entire game" is. The way I see it is that the game is the part where you play.

That's why I say I ignore if it's a "strong FF game" because if the game as a game in itself is a poor game, then there's no way it could be a strong game of that title. Put in any title it's still a bad game. That's the hang up for me.

Also for being easy but stressful, I, again, don't think you understood that difficulty is not directly linked to stress. Zelda games can be difficult, but hardly stressful. The Emerald and Ruby weapons in VII are difficult, but definitely not stressful. Zelda Ocarina of time water temple was stressful, but definitely not difficult. I don't even comprehend how you can link the two, so I'll ask that you elaborate how stress and difficulty are connected.

FFXII did have redeeming qualities. I didn't say that it didn't. As I mentioned in this thread, Balthier was a fantastic character. They had quite a few members of the main cast that were very forgettable, such as what's his face and that one girl. (Bu dum tiss) But regardless, there were still some good characters to come out of it. XII even gave birth to some good music, if you like the style. I personally dislike that style of music, but looking at the actual art of music, it's well written and good. Just not my style. It's no Shinedown, but it would be very shallow of me to forsake a genre of music because I don't like the genre as a whole.

But this thread is asking what the hang ups are, so I contributed. Never did I say that it had no redeeming points. It's ludicrous to assume that any game has zero redeeming points no matter the game. I'm also not fond if X, but I will acknowledge all the good points. The problem with XII is that it has more hang ups than it does redeeming points. If this were a thread about the redeeming points, I would state that as well, but for now, this is about the hang ups. I'd rather you argue against the things I stated than argue that there are good points, because as I said, of course there are. I don't even know why you brought up XIII, that came out of left field for me, this isn't about that game. Besides, I never played XIII so I have no idea what you're even talking about there.

Moving on. Yes, you can choose to manually play, but to be completely honest, the feel of the game was as though it was meant to control one character, the person you were on at that time. But if you did this it was slow paced, which is where the stress comes in. So much waiting knowing you can't do anything. I don't like that. The earlier games had that, too, I know, and I didn't like it in them either, but this is about XII. Granted the time could be used to control other characters, but the thing that makes that even more annoying is that it makes the battle take even longer. It was unnecessary to do that style of set up. The stress came from time consumption for no real reason. They only way to efficiently battle was by setting up gambits for your characters. But if you did that, the game played itself.

About choosing to play the game, another thing that came out of left field. Of course I chose to play it. How can I judge a game I haven't played? I've been a fan of the final fantasy series since...well, since I found out what video games were. As such I purchased it to try it out for my own. It would have been nice to see a better game than X (which I admit is all personal opinion to dislike that game, as it was indeed a quality game). Choosing to play this game has nothing to do with its hang ups. I chose not to play Call of Duty, but that's because I don't like shooters. I chose to play Final Fantasy because I like the games within the franchise.

 

[Razberry Knight]

no....i'm saying what the true hang ups for the game...however....you're really taking it to the point where you are establishing a final thought on FF12 as a whole. and even then its the choices you made within. the game didn't limit you to play it the way SE wanted you to.

also you're complaining about something that is in other final fantasy games and make the excuse that this is the ff12 thread? i'm sorry...but we're not going to go anywhere here if we're not really looking for a problem ff12 had specifically over the others.

FF12 had some specific issues just like others, but i dont think we should shoot it down for something it shares with other games. personal hang ups are one thing, but this thread is more about putting another perspective and not over exagerrate the issues and find the "true" issues that 12 had.

for example, a lot of people constantly badger on about how Vaan is a useless character, in which if you see him in the story, he isn't. he's just not important enough, but he has his own personal importance.

 

[Captain Squee]

The rating was the gameplay. I wasn't complaining about other games, I was referencing them.

Are we really gonna do this? Do I really need to slap you with how debates work? Do I need to detail the reason why I say everything I say?

 

[Razberry Knight]

The rating was the gameplay. I wasn't complaining about other games, I was referencing them.

Are we really gonna do this? Do I really need to slap you with how debates work? Do I need to detail the reason why I say everything I say?

no you don,t but the fact youre asking me to tell me how debates works shows you knew you misinterpretted the game....

either way...your hangs up are purely 'optional' and/or not really specific to ff12 alone.

 

[Captain Squee]

How did you manage to draw the connection about how debate works and misinterpreting the game? That connection makes no sense at all.

 

[Razberry Knight]

the ending of your provoking question. but that aside....i dont really need a reason to why you say what you said, i know why, i just don't think its a strong reason or backed up properly.

like i said, most of your hang ups are still your choice.

 

[Captain Squee]

"I don't need a reason" most common phrase for someone that doesn't have one. I've already explained why, it didn't feel like a choice, and in a game, that's what's important.

 

[Razberry Knight]

"I don't need a reason" most common phrase for someone that doesn't have one.

again...i dont need a reason to why "you" don't like the gameplay....because like i said, you alrady presented them, but their not that good, and not that great.

I've already explained why, it didn't feel like a choice, and in a game, that's what's important.

You called it an interactive movie...but the choice to experience it like that was still yours. because like i said, you have options to either use gambits completely, use some of them, or urs.

you haven't explained why you had no choice, you explained how you had no choice doing it the method you chose to do it. and even then, there was still some level of choice in gameplay if you choose (not force) to have a full autobattle with Gambits.

 

[Captain Squee]

I never sad there was no choice. I said the opposite. I explained that there was, but I also explained why it didn't feel like it was the best route. It wasted time for unnecessary battles. I haven't explained why there is "no choice" because their is a choice, if you want to waste time and fight inefficiently.

This is my last post, clearly you don't understand anything I'm trying to tell you. Thanks to you this went from a debate to an argument, and I hate arguments. Farewell, and have many great debates in your future.

 

[Razberry Knight]

yeah..you're not doing a good job at explaining yourself, and i dont know why, but for some reason people with FF12 haters (lack of a better world) are just really difficult to convey their thoughts than FF13 fans...not that either one is consistent, but one more contradicting than the other. Come on, am i the only one seeing this?

 

[Yaoi Master Gavin]

I'll tell you right now that one of the majour hangups of FFXII was the entire setting. I picked up FFXII after I played FFTAdvance and if you've read any of my posts on FFTAdvance, then you know that I think that that game is a load of utter shit and that how dare it have the audacity to call itself a 'Final Fantasy' or 'Final Fantasy Tactics' game. The worlds of FFXII and FFTA are one and the same, a bastardized, poorly done, shithole incarnation of the amazing Ivalice of the original FFTactics. Upon seeing that this story took place in the same place, with some of the same characters even, I promptly put it down and I've never picked it back up. That alone turns it into a terrible game because it was the spiritual successor to a game that should have been aborted in the first place.

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

The Captain. Just one of many who can think outside the box. Stop thinking like a consumer Razz and Sheech. Especially Sheech since you want to go into the business. The term "FFXII hater" shows they you are close minded no matter what side of the fence you are on. It also shows a lack of wanting to have an educated discussion on the hang ups of this game and like the Captain said, an argument. If you can't see that VII still had core mechanics like I-IX than I feel sorry for you. This wasn't about VII though. This is about XII. I'm done arguing with you two also. You drag people into arguments where you can't win and you do a poor job at it.

 

[C i d]

Please refrain from personal attacks to other members. Thank you for your understanding.

Please do NOT reply to this post. Any questions, PM me.

 

[Shaissa]

Stop thinking like a consumer Razz and Sheech. Especially Sheech since you want to go into the business.

Not to make this sound weird... but WE ARE CONSUMERS! Tell a dog to moo like a cow, it will still bark. There is no point in telling a consumer to not think like a consumer. The consumer is going to like what it is going to like. If that is that they like FFXII or not, they are going like it.

Also Yaui I can agree with you on the FFTA thing. If XII would of used more of Tactics and less TA, I would of been a lot happier, but also like I said in a earlier post I had to refrain from thinking of it as related to Tactics and think of it as a number game. I really enjoyed it after that. I thought that it was unique and entertaining and the story was well done. Sure I didn't like all the characters... Then again I think in almost every Final Fantasy there were one or two characters I didn't like

 

[Ultimaja]

The Captain. Just one of many who can think outside the box. Stop thinking like a consumer Razz and Sheech. Especially Sheech since you want to go into the business. The term "FFXII hater" shows they you are close minded no matter what side of the fence you are on. It also shows a lack of wanting to have an educated discussion on the hang ups of this game and like the Captain said, an argument. If you can't see that VII still had core mechanics like I-IX than I feel sorry for you. This wasn't about VII though. This is about XII. I'm done arguing with you two also. You drag people into arguments where you can't win and you do a poor job at it.

When you can't say one good thing about a game, that is not 'thinking outside the box'.
I see the same thing with some on the subject of XIII. Can't give it any due credit on anything. That's called being a 'hater'.

One can talk about how the hardest boss in the game is easy and how it's bad that one doesn't even have to attend the fight.
That's nice, you set up your gambits and cleverly prepared.

What got you to the end of the game? Is it because one has a fetish for being miserable, or is it because the game wasn't actually bad and one is just basically griping after the fact, jumping on a 'hater' bandwagon?


Drag me into this argument and I will win, because I actually think outside the box where you seem to not. You have sore motive to say what you've stated, and it bleeds through considerably.

And since VII has been brought up, I particularly did not like the fact that magic defense is null and void in it. The mechanic is screwed, and the funny thing is that most people do not notice that because as much as you think the battling is so much better, it was really just the base charm of the game that attracted you and you mistake it for the game play.
Why do you think you like it over the old ones which had the same exact style?

That's called thinking out the box. Marinate on that before you go and insult others based on rank prejudice of a game.


A lot of fan bases have this issue, one sees it with Elder Scrolls as well.
It reminds me of back in grade school when it was cool to not like Barney, and no cool kid ever watched it. But when arts and crafts time came around, those same kids are humming the Barney song while making their macaroni portraits.
I don't believe a real FF fan really hates any FF.

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

I know several business men that make consumers moo....
Most people I know didn't like XII but that's beside the point.
It's not about if I liked it or you liked it or anyone liked it etc.
My perception of the hang up takes a step back and looks at the game and series from a bigger picture
I look at it based off the core IP which I mention in Benders other thread and in other threads including this one.
I can look outside the box because I can tell the core mechanics apart from the surface mechanics.
I see it from a creative and business perspective,
I step outside of the box by not looking at it as a fan but as a creator of an entertainment medium that's bound by laws and statistics by sticking to a core formula of what works until it doesn't and move on.
I don't hate XII, or any other game that Square Enix makes.
I can name good things about the game, but this isn't about what was good.
This is about hang-ups. Instead of picking apart what's good I choose to help inform "fans" what they are supporting, which is a company that doesn't care about you.
So in reality I'm trying to help you.
It's not about hate.
It's an astute, calculated, and educated interpretation of what this game is from a corporate business point of view
Because of my education and background I am not bound by the faith and belief in a title or franchise.
Most "fans" of the series stopped with IX and that's just fact.
Square Enix milks..moo..the consumer like a cash cow with the name of the franchise, changing it's core IP and uses people still buying it like guinea pigs.
As a business owner I could agree or disagree with Square Enix depending on their cash flow and business model,
but I'm inclined to disagree with them as I wouldn't rock the boat as much as they have, but at the same time they have more money at stake.
I am a fan of Final Fantasy but I'm not a fan of a company that wants to milk me. I'm smarter than that.
The fact is most people hated this game.
It wasn't interesting.
It had no motive.
It was too easy.
It does act like a simulator.
I could go on and on and on.
I choose to step outside that box and tell you the real reason it was terrible.
Some may have liked it and that's fine.
This is my assessment and people don't have to agree with me.
This is my last post on this thread.
Have fun arguing.