What is going on Square Enix?

[FFturn-based80]

I'm a huge Final Fantasy fan, but I just now played FF13 and FF13-2 and I was so dissappointed. I just have no clue what Final Fantasy has become, to be honest I don't think FF13 had any right to consider itself a true Final Fantasy game. My first problem with it was that everyone was first talking about how the game had it's first female lead character. In my opinion I thought Hope or Snow was more of a main character then Lightning. By the end Hope had all the changes that a main character goes through and it seemed like the group just listened to him and respected him a lot. For me the only reason Lightning was considered the main character was because you start off the game with her and she wields the sword. Secondly, everyone should know how linear the game is and how little exploration there is and freedom within the game. The only chance you have at running around freely is at Gran Pulse and even that sucks. Another reason I was so dissappointed was that there was no real fun sidequests like collecting sigils and crests to get everyone's ultimate weapon, Final Fantasy X. Also there was no secret bosses to fight against and receive cool items to help you in future boss battles. Another reason I could care less about the game was that even after beating it i felt no sense of pride, unlike when I beat both FFIX and FFX after completing every little thing I possibly could. My biggest complaint though...the game wasn't turn-based. Now i know people may say that there are people out there that want more action and quickplay, but honestly that's not what Final Fantasy was built upon. I hate that you can only control one character and if they are gonna do something like that why not go the Kingdom Hearts route where the AI, Donald and Goofy, were actually smart since they knew how to use items and knew when to use them, just take away the ATB gauge I think it is useless and all I'm doing in the game is cating Libra then using auto-attack while occasionally switching paradigms. Square Enix is trying the westernize Final Fantasy, but there is no real reason too. Unless your already a Final Fantasy fan most people are not gonna go out of their way to get the game. They need to go back and bring back turn-based...it takes much more thinking and is more strategy based trying to get a good outcome. Even though I have all these complaints about the game I can't just dog the entire game. One of the best aspects in the game for me was how visually appealing it was and the story itself was done fairly well. At least FF13 story was good, FF13-2 was awful and there was no point in beating the game since nothing changes in the end. I also thought that the difficultly was nice I liked the fact it got tougher closer to the end of the game forcing you to find some sort of strategy in the game. I felt that the characters in the game were very interesting and I connected with them for the most part, although a chocobo chick in Sazhs hair is weird and for some reason both Fang and Vanille were Australlian. For me a good soundtrack isn't exactly a selling point. There are only a hanful of soundtracks I like in video games, FFX, Kingdom Hearts 1+2, and some of FFIX. Honestly I will continue to buy Final Fantasy games just because I respect it's predecessors so much. I just hope they can bring back what made Final Fantasy what it is today, those being, make it turn-based, have more exploration and sidequests, and make a main character that exemplifies all the characteristics needed to make one.

 

[Starships]

This video might sum up their thoughts right now.

 

[Tmoo]

Square (yes, Squaresoft, not just Square Enix) has always targeted a younger audience, teenagers. This business model doesn't look to change. In Japan, it's considered normal to outgrow video games by the time a child reaches college - that's their culture, though of course the youth is changing that to some degree. To that end, FFXII can be considered the black sheep of the series, with some caveats in the form of Vaan/Penelo. XIII is more or less a return to the younger audience targeting for SE, and XIII-2 and Lightning Returns looks to continue that. In the West, many FF fans are those who grew up with older games in the series; we're all much older now, and tastes, preferences, and personal values have all undergone a lot of change during that time, so newer FF's may alienate this group given that it targets a different demographic. Square itself has always been this way and always will be, though their design teams are of course different and the FF series has had numerous directors over the span of its lifetime.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Square (yes, Squaresoft, not just Square Enix) has always targeted a younger audience, teenagers. This business model doesn't look to change. In Japan, it's considered normal to outgrow video games by the time a child reaches college - that's their culture, though of course the youth is changing that to some degree. To that end, FFXII can be considered the black sheep of the series, with some caveats in the form of Vaan/Penelo. XIII is more or less a return to the younger audience targeting for SE, and XIII-2 and Lightning Returns looks to continue that. In the West, many FF fans are those who grew up with older games in the series; we're all much older now, and tastes, preferences, and personal values have all undergone a lot of change during that time, so newer FF's may alienate this group given that it targets a different demographic. Square itself has always been this way and always will be, though their design teams are of course different and the FF series has had numerous directors over the span of its lifetime.

that's not the case. Otherwise Mario should become a FPS.

 

[Tmoo]

that's not the case. Otherwise Mario should become a FPS.

What? ._. Can you explain how that applies to what I said?

 

[Razberry Knight]

What? ._. Can you explain how that applies to what I said?

You suggest they changed the formula due to target audience. Hypothetically if Nintendo did the same Mario would change too to a broader target audience.

I'm saying that's not the case.

 

[Tmoo]

You suggest they changed the formula due to target audience. Hypothetically if Nintendo did the same Mario would change too to a broader target audience.

I'm saying that's not the case.

Ahh I see. My main point is that Square Enix targets a younger demographic than the FF fans in their 20's and onward and have always done so, except perhaps for XII. XII's target demographic is debate-able (I made that statement based off my own interpretations), but my point holds true either way. Nintendo doesn't have to do anything to Mario to appeal to a bigger audience, because it has always had appeal for a wide age group.

 

[ConZa]

Before I start I have to agree with black_eclipse, that hurts . And also say that there might be some spoilers here for not only XIII but XIII-2, X, XII and IV.


I played FFXII for a good 50 something hours and a good portion of that was with 2 friends sitting next to me saying....... wow this game looks so bad......... what are you doing. These friends aren't "FPS heads" or anything just that watching someone play the game looks boring as hell because all you do for a lot of it is sort out your crystarium and press x in battles. But the reason that I enjoyed the game so much is that the story was so captivating ESPECIALLY when combined with the AMAZING visuals (I had never played a PS3 game before so i didn't realise that they are amazing).

Instead of making the game the same as the experience I'm currently having with FFIV, that is to say, I'm constantly dying to yellow Gel's or w/e they're called that i cant kill because I have no mana and the stupid bard man is only level 6 or some shit so he cant do anything and I only do one dmg with attacks so it takes forever to kill them and THERES FOUR OF THEM!.......... So instead of that you have a game that you can contribute to the story without getting lost in where the fuck do I go, how the fuck do I kill this stuff etc.

This is just how I justify what they've done and I really like it. except for the ending. I still don't know what actually happened, and I looked it up and read what happened and don't understand. Anyway as for XIII-2...... no. nup. I quit in the city (Academia?) where you meet hope? I think. it was too frustrating... and time travel. ugh. I really didn't like that game.\

I do agree with you to a point in terms of character development but I still think that Lightning was the best choice for the main character because essentially, the majority of the story was about saving Serah, Lightning's sister. I realise that she's Snow fiancée as well AND that Snow was the leader of the resistance (or w/e they were called) making him possibly a better choice as a main character, AND TO THAT.... i have nothing to say, they went with Lightning. I think the reason SE focused so much on hope's character development is to get players more attached to the entire cast and not just the main character (like what they did in FFX or.... the exact opposite of what they seem to be doing to Vaan in FFXII, I'm still playing through).


I also agree with you that it kinda sucks only being able to control one character AND that I HATE active battling, as opposed to the wait option in some of the games. BUT considering there is no wait option, I'm kinda happy that I could only control one character and not have to use(micro?) three whilst getting pummeled. I think they actually did pretty well in making you feel like you were the "party leader" instead of making you all of the characters. As for people not doing what you want, I just outsmarted the game by making 3 essential paradigms, one for all MED, one for all RAV, and one for all COM. And it worked for me .

what else....... I'm not gunna talk about the secret bosses and weapons because whenever I try and go after hidden things in any game I always get bored so i guess that's not really my thing and as a side note, are you saying you didn't like the Australian accents? I really did, At first it was weird hearing my own accent in...... well.... anything really. but i got used to it pretty quickly and I liked that they were Australian.

I hope I helped you in some way and didn't just type all this out for no reason. But yeah, this is all just my opinion and I realise that lots of people think that I'm wrong

 

[Starships]

I agree with Tmoo that they are aiming for the younger gen, the newer gen at the moment that would of started with something like KH 2 or Crisis Core.

Look at Tumblr. They're are eating FF 13 up like it's gold. Because it has a simple battle system, flashy graphics and a anime like feel. Something like say... FF5 wouldn't appeal to them much.

Plus look at Crisis Core, the only controllable character was Zack- same with KH and Sora. So it's what they like, and what they're used too.

 

[FFturn-based80]

To ConZa I just wanted to thank you for your feedback I appreciate it. I guess everyone has their own personal opinion on where Final Fantasy is headed. And as for the whole Vanille and Fang thing i was actually saying I enjoyed their character's and accent's.

Holy cow, my eyes! It would be easier to read it if you learn how to make a paragraph, won't it?

I just wanted to apologize to you, this was my very first post ever on any website like this so I honestly wasn't thinking about that at all. From this point on i will try my best to fix that since I am trying to get everyone's opinion on the game and I need to be sure i can appeal to everyone.

 

[black_eclipse]

They could still attract new audience without turning off the already existing fans. They allienate their fanbase by dropping the elements that made the FF games so fun. I don't really mind changes. In fact I encourage it. SE should just be smart on doing it.

Not that it matter so much but they should aim for critical acclaim, not commercial. Back in the days, developers just do what the best they can and never thought much about the sales. You can tell that they had passion on doing it. Look at Justin Bieber. He sold so many CD's when his music actually sucks. Do you think fans will still buy his album after a disappointing one? Fans will be skeptical with buying his next album because of last album. Just like a saying in boxing "you are only good as your last fight" or something like that.

 

[Shaissa]

Ahh I see. My main point is that Square Enix targets a younger demographic than the FF fans in their 20's and onward and have always done so, except perhaps for XII. XII's target demographic is debate-able (I made that statement based off my own interpretations), but my point holds true either way. Nintendo doesn't have to do anything to Mario to appeal to a bigger audience, because it has always had appeal for a wide age group.

Actually Mario has changed a lot from when it first came out.. was an arcade game called Donkey Kong... went to a platform game... and really has spin out across many different things.. party games.. sport games.. Really Nintendo did what Square has done (or is trying to do) with the Final Fantasy series.

Trying to target a new audience. Yes they are trying to still attract the RPG fan base, but they want the kids that also like the more action pack stuff (which is becoming more and more common even in Japan.) So did XIII do it's job? I have to say it did, it attracted different people that might have never played a FF game before and now they are trying to keep them, cause really, who is buying the RPG games? us older fans or the younger newer fans?

 

[Tmoo]

Actually Mario has changed a lot from when it first came out.. was an arcade game called Donkey Kong... went to a platform game... and really has spin out across many different things.. party games.. sport games.. Really Nintendo did what Square has done (or is trying to do) with the Final Fantasy series.

Trying to target a new audience. Yes they are trying to still attract the RPG fan base, but they want the kids that also like the more action pack stuff (which is becoming more and more common even in Japan.) So did XIII do it's job? I have to say it did, it attracted different people that might have never played a FF game before and now they are trying to keep them, cause really, who is buying the RPG games? us older fans or the younger newer fans?

Yeah, Nintendo has definitely crossed Mario all over the place. Still, the original Mario Bros. formula has withstood the test of time and continues to appeal to a wide age group, and the spinoffs target the same audience despite belonging to different genres. I don't believe SE intentionally targets new audiences so much as their target demographic changes every 10 years as a result of them always aiming for a specific age group, though you're right about FF adapting to the new group. Personally I feel that SE will continue this with each new console generation, so what lies in wait for FF when Orbis/Durango are released may yet be even more radical. Notice the changes in the series from its NES/SNES era, to PS1, PS2, and PS3/360 eras. Pokemon is doing that as well, the difference being it has chosen to change additively instead of changing its core systems with each iteration (though it shares some of the same problems with FF concerning its fanbase).

EDIT:

They could still attract new audience without turning off the already existing fans. They allienate their fanbase by dropping the elements that made the FF games so fun. I don't really mind changes. In fact I encourage it. SE should just be smart on doing it.

Not that it matter so much but they should aim for critical acclaim, not commercial. Back in the days, developers just do what the best they can and never thought much about the sales. You can tell that they had passion on doing it. Look at Justin Bieber. He sold so many CD's when his music actually sucks. Do you think fans will still buy his album after a disappointing one? Fans will be skeptical with buying his next album because of last album. Just like a saying in boxing "you are only good as your last fight" or something like that.

I'm sure it's possible for them to do. It doesn't seem to be their focus though.

 

[Razberry Knight]

The demographic hasnt changed. And Mario has expanded its genre the same way Final Fantasy has but this time they changed direction. But what FF is doing now isnt what nintendo is doing with Mario.

The thing is they removed things that made Ff for what it is. Their not doing this change to target a different audience. The gameplay became much more tedious. Granted they fixed those issues but the only real problem is moving on from XIII and finding something new. Every FF game has a new feature, it didnt work with XIII and yet continue to bring back the system with some minor changes that still feels as tedious as the last.

This isnt about demographic.

 

[Tmoo]

The demographic hasnt changed. And Mario has expanded its genre the same way Final Fantasy has but this time they changed direction. But what FF is doing now isnt what nintendo is doing with Mario.

The thing is they removed things that made Ff for what it is. Their not doing this change to target a different audience. The gameplay became much more tedious. Granted they fixed those issues but the only real problem is moving on from XIII and finding something new. Every FF game has a new feature, it didnt work with XIII and yet continue to bring back the system with some minor changes that still feels as tedious as the last.

This isnt about demographic.

It has a lot to do with demographics. Square targets teenagers. People in their 20's (that's us) used to be their target audience some years ago, but that isn't the case anymore. People who have been around since the very early FF games, likewise grew out of that audience and we took their place. It's always been this way. Mario and FF are two very different franchises so comparing them is difficult. Mario's genre expansions have the 'for everyone' mentality so there isn't a shift in who Nintendo is marketing to there (and it helps that Mario is very lighthearted, and lighthearted games can more easily appeal to many people).

The reason FF has changed has to do with many factors, of which has more to do with increased competition, the internet, business climate, advancement of console technology, rising development costs, and management (or lack thereof) than simply being the result of incompetency. What makes an FF title 'FF' is dependent on how each individual views the series, and this varies wildly among the different generations of players (I-VI, VII-X, XI-XIV).

 

[Razberry Knight]

It has a lot to do with demographics. Square targets teenagers. People in their 20's (that's us) used to be their target audience some years ago, but that isn't the case anymore. People who have been around since the very early FF games, likewise grew out of that audience and we took their place. It's always been this way. Mario and FF are two very different franchises so comparing them is difficult. Mario's genre expansions have the 'for everyone' mentality so there isn't a shift in who Nintendo is marketing to there (and it helps that Mario is very lighthearted, and lighthearted games can more easily appeal to many people).

The reason FF has changed has to do with many factors, of which has more to do with increased competition, the internet, business climate, advancement of console technology, rising development costs, and management (or lack thereof) than simply being the result of incompetency. What makes an FF title 'FF' is dependent on how each individual views the series, and this varies wildly among the different generations of players (I-VI, VII-X, XI-XIV).

Youre DEAD WRONG.

Yes those are factors that game developers to consider but that has absolutely nothing to do with why Final Fantasy sucks. We didnt grow out of Final Fantasy because the demographic is aimed at older teens. The demographic has nothing to do with quality. And thats what the current games lack.


How is it that the older games had more than 13? This isnt preference.this is an issue of a game actually delivering.

 

[ConZa]

To ConZa I just wanted to thank you for your feedback I appreciate it. I guess everyone has their own personal opinion on where Final Fantasy is headed. And as for the whole Vanille and Fang thing i was actually saying I enjoyed their character's and accent's.

Thanks, I also want to add (because i CLEARLY haven't said enough already ), about the wait/active battle system, I have been slowly getting around to playing all of the FF's and so far i've played IV, VI, VII, VIII, X and X-2, XII, and XIII and XIII-2 and for most of those they use the active and not wait. I'm pretty sure that I checked the settings everytime because I hate active battle mode but I think IV, VI, VII and VIII along with XIII all had active battle modes in some sense or another (i realise that some had a wait option, but in VI it doesnt work AT ALL for me and i cant remember playing VII or VIII).

This would mean that (from what I can deduct with the help of wikipedia ) SE was clearly moving away from the turn based, slow, thought out battles to battles that you had to react to. I'm not trying to sell you on this I'm just trying to give a little justification. I don't know about IX (will soon when I finish one of the ones I'm playing) but after that they created a new battled mode for each game.

X featured the Conditional Turn-Based Battle so that you could see who was next and not only influence that by using different moves (not only haste, slow etc) but you could SEE yourself influencing this (gotta say I LOVED THIS and by the sound of it you loved this too if you've played it.... if you haven't ..... PLAY IT).

XI featured something new that was invented for that game and was based off Chrono Trigger (made by the guy who designed the chrono trigger system).

XII has the Active Dimension Battle, and if you've seen it, theres no need explaining. Also the wait function ACTUALLY works which slows down the gameplay alot.

and then XIII had paradigm shifting with an ATB bar that had a flashy name.

My point.... i guess.... is that it's not really about what it was "built upon" but more about how it evolved, and is evolving. So IMHO SE can't be put down for its decision to use that type of a battle system considering what they were and are trying to do. But i get it that it makes you not like it.

Play FFX (can't stress that enough)

 

[Tmoo]

Youre DEAD WRONG.

Yes those are factors that game developers to consider but that has absolutely nothing to do with why Final Fantasy sucks. We didnt grow out of Final Fantasy because the demographic is aimed at older teens. The demographic has nothing to do with quality. And thats what the current games lack.


How is it that the older games had more than 13? This isnt preference.this is an issue of a game actually delivering.

No. The standards for an RPG are different today. Yes, we grew out of FF precisely because FF changed to appeal to the newer generation. What you think makes a good FF title is different from what many others today would think. Here's what you've failed to grasp: QUALITY IS RELATIVE. Yes, many of us older fans are malcontent with how the newer games turned out. That does NOT make our opinions fact. This is why the fanbase is divided.

How do the older games have 'more' than XIII? They were designed differently. Not to say XIII is lacking in faults: it has many. Did it deliver everything you wanted (your preferences, your expectations)? No? For many others it did. And while it has many detractors, it also has many fans. Many of those fans are newer players, or new to the franchise - the newer generation. They're the target audience. THAT'S MY POINT.

 

[black_eclipse]

No. The standards for an RPG are different today. Yes, we grew out of FF precisely because FF changed to appeal to the newer generation. What you think makes a good FF title is different from what many others today would think. Here's what you've failed to grasp: QUALITY IS RELATIVE. Yes, many of us older fans are malcontent with how the newer games turned out. That does NOT make our opinions fact. This is why the fanbase is divided.

How do the older games have 'more' than XIII? They were designed differently. Not to say XIII is lacking in faults: it has many. Did it deliver everything you wanted (your preferences, your expectations)? No? For many others it did. And while it has many detractors, it also has many fans. Many of those fans are newer players, or new to the franchise - the newer generation. They're the target audience. THAT'S MY POINT.

I'm sure even some newer players are turned off by the mechanics of FFXIII. They'll probably say it's boring or "WTF are they just standing there being attacked?" or how "cheesy" the characters and the storyline. Newer gamers today prefer flashy games (Hack n slash, Shooters and other action packed games).

Departing from the turn-based system was actually a right move IMO. Watching the trailer of versus XIII, I could see the elements of what both the new and old fans would like. But that's just me. Remember how promising the trailer of XIII was only to turn a disappointment.

 

[Razberry Knight]

I

No. The standards for an RPG are different today. Yes, we grew out of FF precisely because FF changed to appeal to the newer generation. What you think makes a good FF title is different from what many others today would think. Here's what you've failed to grasp: QUALITY IS RELATIVE. Yes, many of us older fans are malcontent with how the newer games turned out. That does NOT make our opinions fact. This is why the fanbase is divided.

How do the older games have 'more' than XIII? They were designed differently. Not to say XIII is lacking in faults: it has many. Did it deliver everything you wanted (your preferences, your expectations)? No? For many others it did. And while it has many detractors, it also has many fans. Many of those fans are newer players, or new to the franchise - the newer generation. They're the target audience. THAT'S MY POINT.

all other final fantasy in the main series had an open world. It had some form of customization. It had options and a good story.Have you even played the other final fantasy? Even you would know that 13 lacked a lot more than what the previous modern fantasy.

In its early days it was dot-like characters and simple music however technology got more advance and FF got updated. But it didnt sacrifice content to appeal a new audience. FF7-9 had multi disc. Sure maybe older fans preffered the dot like characters out of nostalgia but very few would say those were better because of it being 2D.

13 doesnt have many fans. Actually the former fans are actually catching on in its flaws as morre sequels are made. And some are divided because they have not played previous games and dont know what their missing. Many of us dont even like the story and just like 12 haters out there, they accept it for what it is. But unlike ff12, the same series being thrown at us we cant move on and enjoy a new story and new mechanics.

For example:i thought kingdom Hearts 2 was the best game ever until i played the original and chain of memories.

How is it that al lot of reviewws criticized how linear it is? Could it be that revoewers are stuck ina different demographic. No they just no whats a good game.


You trying to play Devils advocate where you cant.