When did Final Fantasy stop being 'Final Fantasy'?

[Guernsey]

You know there has been so mnay rant threads on how X game is ruining the sries but my question to the fandom is this, when Final Fantasy stop being 'Final Fantasy'? When did things go downhill for the series? At first I thought it was the time Square Enix made the movie the Spirits Within, itw asn't bad movie on its own but it wasn't really a final fantasy movie. I kind of liked the movie even if it didn't have the all to familiar elements of the games themselves. Perhaps it was Final Fantasy X-2, the first true sequel in the entire history of the franchise but it was more a fanservice game if anything. It had some good gameplay elements and it was fun on some level but it seemed to more like a gaiden game if anything. Final Fantasy XI is an online that more or less got mixed reviews from fans but it widely accepted by most MMO players.

Final Fantasy XII is a good game that could had been even better if Basch and Bathier were the main protagonists instead of the hero being a small boy with little to almost no role in the actual plot. It was also next game receive sequels, prequels and interquels but it also makes an attempt to into Final Fantasy Tactics with the whole 'Ivalice Alliance' thing. Final Fantasy XIII is the most polarizing game in the franchise, there are fans who hate, fans who love it, fans who care too much and fans who could care less. It also got a true sequel as well as two other games that occur in the same universe Versus and Agito. There was going to be a third game in that same universe but it was most likely an disclosed rumor.

Maybe it was with the Final Fantasy VII craze, it was a good game on its own until the released Advent Children. They kept making sequels, prequels and spinoffs that really don't do anything for the actual game but it also pretty much alienate some fans from Final Fantasy VII. Even back in the day, Square Enix's move to playstation caused a lot fans to stir. It was shortly after Final Fantasy VI an VII, that Final Fantasy stopped about sword and sorcery and explored science fiction elements. You know there are so many games, so many stories that make you wonder when did the fandom got worked up over this? When did Final Fantasy stop being 'Final Fantasy'?

 

[Ohri-Jin]

After FF12.. When SE decided to remove towns, make meaningless NPC's, skip merchants, made mediocre one button smash battlesystems, decided to only make one char controllable in battle, focused too much on the Western market and gets sidetracked with BS projects people buy regardless.

I might have forgotten something?

 

[Omegadruid]

To be honest! To me Final Fantasy had a very low moment with FF XII. While certainly a good game on its own it lacks the most crucial elements in the series to me and those are Story Telling and Characters oh and how could I forget one very important aspect aswell! THE SOUNDTRACK SUCKS!(There are a few good tracks though but not good enough to redeem the whole thing thats mostly composed of boring tracks).

I have to admit though that I am loving the side titles such as Final Fantasy Dissidia and the remakes such as Final Fantasy 4 the complete collection! I dont dislike Crisis Core and Advent children either as far as FF7 is concerned (Havent played Dirge of Cerebrus yet).

 

[Mantis]

FFXI. From that point onwards, Final Fantasy has never been the same. And I wish I could say that in a good way. But think about it. It wasn't long after Square released FFXI that the merge with Enix happened, and most of what XI is now is a result of the merge. The fact remains that they haven't released anything with FFX's substance ever since. But even Enix isn't entirely to blame. Square developed X-2 after all. I guess they cut their losses.

 

[Harlequin]

I think the decline started when Square and Enix merged. Making an online FF is cool and all but don't give it a place in the numbered series! They shattered 15 years of continuity when they did that. It's like they haven't had a clue of what the old school fans have wanted ever since.

What happened to card games? Chocobo racing? Character developing sidequests? Secret characters? Monster arena? Airships? Nobuo Uematsu?

These days FF is just about a smooth battle system and pretty visuals... smoke and mirrors really. It's a shame, I loved the earlier FFs.

EDIT: Not to mention what Ohri said where are the towns? where is the world?! it's just one enemy riddled corridor to another.

 

[kratoscar2008]

From the moment i couldnt name my MC, it really killed the Role for me, the good old times where you were asked to imput your name are long gone and with it part of the FF feel.

XII was good but since it take place in Ivalice lots of the great elements of FF like the epic Summons like Bahamut and Odin were replaced with craps like Cuchulain and Belias.

FFXIII just killed the whole FF quality altogueter and now with its third iteration its the only final fantasy that is the "Final Fantasy" for most fans.

 

[Shaissa]

If you want my honest opinion... Final Fantasy never stopped being Final Fantasy. The games were never the same to begin with, they only had similar things in them. Final Fantasy is always changing from game to game, with graphics, gameplay, leveling up system, characters... The list can go on and on. To say one game is a "Final Fantasy" and one isn't a "Final Fantasy", to me, is impossible, there might be a Final Fantasy you might not like, but it is a Final Fantasy.

 

[kratoscar2008]

If you want my honest opinion... Final Fantasy never stopped being Final Fantasy. The games were never the same to begin with, they only had similar things in them. Final Fantasy is always changing from game to game, with graphics, gameplay, leveling up system, characters... The list can go on and on. To say one game is a "Final Fantasy" and one isn't a "Final Fantasy", to me, is impossible, there might be a Final Fantasy you might not like, but it is a Final Fantasy.

There was "something" that FFs before X-2 had, "something" that made those games great on their own right, "something" that made them different yet enjoyable, "something" made them great games, "something" that despite being different made those games feel familiar and epic, "something" that made those FF games a must. That "something" is what today FFs and most of SE rpgs lack.

 

[.Mosh]

If you want my honest opinion... Final Fantasy never stopped being Final Fantasy. The games were never the same to begin with, they only had similar things in them. Final Fantasy is always changing from game to game, with graphics, gameplay, leveling up system, characters... The list can go on and on. To say one game is a "Final Fantasy" and one isn't a "Final Fantasy", to me, is impossible, there might be a Final Fantasy you might not like, but it is a Final Fantasy.

You should to be honest be my best friend on the forum, I feel true fans should be like this in opinion. Yes you might not like the newest Final Fantasy or should I say the FFXIII series we will have a FFXV and who knows that might be the one you all one. So it is silly to go Final Fantasy is dead to me when in the next couple of years you could go oh my god Final Fantasy XV is amazing.

I respect your decision to hate certain FF as indeed it doesn't feel like it used to but like shuce said, it is still Final Fantasy none the less.

 

[Starships]

Final Fantasy XII. It just didn't feel like a Final Fantasy game. The music didn't feel as epic, the storyline was more governmental plot than the hero saves the world plot and the characters felt so plain and dry.

Then Final Fantasy XIII came around and while they improved the characters and the storyline became the hero saves the day again. It become graphics and style over everything else which destroyed it's chances of becoming a epic Final Fantasy like IX or VII.

If you added more gameplay, bigger rooms to explore, a less lazy and confusing storyline and a battle mechanic more like Final Fantasy X then it could of been fantastic.

But lol nope. SE thought that graphics are more important than that stuff and it payed big time.

However I don't think that FF is dead just yet. But it's hanging by a rope by the cliff and with each douche like SE things does the rope gets less and less stronger. Final Fantasy XV and Versus is either going to help Final Fantasy stand up again or it's going to let it fall down to the ground and die.

 

[Linnaete]

I personally think FFXII is the most fun I've had from a Final Fantasy game since FFIX, but I know there are plenty of people out there that will resolutely disagree with me on that. We all have our own ideas of what constitutes a Final Fantasy game anyway, and there's no objective list of criteria or constitution for what separates a true Final Fantasy game from the bastard offsprings. Things like no traditional world map, no Uematsu, turning your summons into imperial airships? Just superficial things to me. And besides, on that no traditional world map thing, FFX seems to be revered a lot. I can easily come out and say FFX is a bastard child for not having a world map and that traditional town-world map-dungeon game design. Another person can easily come out and reply that it is a Final Fantasy game because story and characters are the most important things. Who wins? Neither side. The only objective thing a Final Fantasy game has to conform to is perhaps not being a military FPS.

Truth to say however, I definitely think the franchise has lost that spirit that separated it from the other JRPG names, and elevated Final Fantasy above the status of "just another JRPG franchise". I'm talking about that passionate pioneering spirit - where the whole team is beavering away at a game that may be ahead of its time, done differently to its competitors, doing something new and exciting, something that stands out, etc. What do we have now? I look at FFXIII-2 and I see it as one big checklist of things to do. Actually bring in HD towns? Are you actually proud of that progress? Well, considering plenty of other developers have already cracked it, you shouldn't be. You're just playing catch up. Square are in danger of driving the franchise deeper and deeper into irrelevance, and though because of its name recognition it will never reach, say, Record of Agarest War levels of irrelevance, the magnitude of how things have changed is very apparent.

My feelings towards FFXIII are clear, but even I don't think it's not a FF game. I just think it's a shit Final Fantasy game without the subjective things I want out of the franchise. It has no sense of grandeur, world interaction and adventure? I just think that if this stunt was ever tried out again and again, the franchise to me would be being irreparably dragged through the mud. It's probably a good thing that SE may not dare to try something like that ever again, and that each of the games can manage to be wildly different to each other, even that LR: FFXIII.

Well, here's to FFXV then, in about 10 years time. I can end up hating it, or loving it. But I still won't grimace and say "this ain't Final Fantasy", unless Infinity Ward is making the game, FFXV's setting is Afghanistan, the villains are the Taliban and I am part of the US Navy Seals.

 

[Sheechiibii]

I don't think it's gone downhill. I absolutely hate XIII and think it's an awfull game, but I wouldn't say that the series has stopped being FF. Every Final Fantasy title has a different way of doing things, some are vastly different and others are only slightly different. I can't really look at FFXIII as a Final Fantasy game as I just hate it that much, but that's just my opinion. There are people who absolutely can't stand FFVIII or VII but that doesn't mean the series on the whole is going downhill. There are lots of people who dislike the newer games, and that's fair enough. It's not like the series hasn't had this before. Almost every time there is a new game out there are people who hate it and say it's not a FF game and how it's god awfull, but the series lives on because they are constantly changing. Every new title has different qualities from the one before, so when they can't please everyone all the time, they are bound to please someone with some of their games. If that makes any sense at all lol

Technically Final Fantasy stopped being 'Final Fantasy' when they released FFII.

 

[Mr. Gorilla]

The series never really had much of an identity as its own, anyway. The mechanics varied wildly from game to game, unfortunately at the cost of the series never "growing up:" Final Fantasy has always been a fairly experimental series, but it has never been a progressive series. New mechanics will be introduced in each game, only to be tossed out in the next; rarely do the developers keep something around to polish. So, with that said, "Final Fantasy" is less of its own thing and more of a collective of various concepts, many of which simply don't make any sense. Don't get me wrong, though; some of them do work out. Final Fantasy XII was the most wildly different game yet, but it was also the best thing to happen to the series: wide, open level design, a combat system that actually requires a decent amount of player input, numerous optional bosses and secrets to discover, and a fairly in-depth character customization system (Granted, it did become broken like every other game in the series at high level, but at least it was something). Unfortunately, being the Final Fantasy "series," all of that was tossed out with Final Fantasy XIII.

I do like what I've heard of XIII-3; the apparent non-linear structure, the doomsday clock that depends on your actions, and the promise of multiple endings makes it seem like the game will have some level of choice and consequence (Something oddly lacking in a supposed series of "role-playing games"), but in all likelihood, they'll throw it all out again with the next title.

 

[NeoTesseract]

Final Fantasy X marked the start of a new era of mediocrity , here's why,

EDIT:I would like to make it clear that this is my opinion, as some of you have given yours, so all the fanboys take a chillpill:

Final Fantasy X has got to be the WORST RPG I've ever played, not only was the story boring and overly-linear, the characters were some of the most annoying I have ever encountered in ANY game. The only positive aspects that I am able to highlight would be the top drawer battle system and Auron (such a badass did not deserve such a mediocre game) . The protagonist is the most annoying little Leonardo DiCaprio wannabe, with his annoying nasally smart ass comments and blunders, and don't get me started on the rest of the weirdos you encounter. The story is not to my taste, though it is not poorly told, it is simply devised for the mediocre and emotional fanbase of half-baked chickflicks and love novels. I do not consider this game a true Final Fantasy game, rather an emotional RPG that would have been better off being a separate game from the series. The very last true Final Fantasy game was without a doubt FFIX, though not my favorite game in the series by far, it was a great game and some can rightfully argue that not only was it the last true Final Fantasy game, it was the most "Fantasy" out of the whole series. The storytelling was well done, and though linear as most RPGs are, interesting enough so that you can overlook its faults.

 

[Mr. Gorilla]

You have a fair point; while it didn't start with FFX, FFX is probably the shining example of the large amount of sap shoved into most of the "modern" Final Fantasy titles. While melodrama and romantic sap are suitable to children, Final Fantasy's core fanbase has grown up, and it's time for Square-Enix to drop the sugary love stories in favour of a more complex, less cheese-ridden tone; now, I wouldn't mind as much if the plot-to-game ratio was in the *game* part's favour, but, of course, it should be in the game part's favour *to begin with.* Right now, we have to wade through a sea of "I love you but I don't know how to express my feelings" teenage crap in order to get to the good parts.

(Of course, it isn't as if Square-Enix is the only company with this problem; BioWare is notorious for "romantic" soap opera bullshit.)

 

[Martel]

I suppose Final Fantasy never stopped being what it was, the problem is that what it was - and what it is - changed to become something mediocre. Square Enix have gone from being one of the leaders of the JRPG genre to being just another metaphorical fish in the pond; the kind that's been around for years, is absolutely massive, and is caught by anyone and everyone who goes fishing in said pond, to the point where it's unremarkable. They rely ENTIRELY on past success and massive advertising campaigns to sell their video games now; there is not a shred of what made their games so enjoyable originally present within their latest attempts. If Square Enix didn't have their extensive history and fanbase to rely upon to hype their games, they would likely be out of business by now. Final Fantasy has evolved, but it's evolved from being a series of games with progressive gameplay mechanics (FFI-FFVI) to a series that prioritizes graphics above everything else (FFVII onwards) and lacks any of the appeal that earlier FF games had. They've gone from being the lead in innovative gameplay to the lead in pushing a console's performance to its limits...which, whilst it isn't a bad thing in itself, is a bad thing for a JRPG, because JRPGs are, and always have been, about telling a story, which is quite easy to do without flashy graphics to accompany it.

People might attribute this failure to FFX, or FFXII, but the problem started a long time before that: it started with FFVII, with the shift from 2D to 3D graphics. Suddenly, it became a competition to see who could make the prettiest looking pile of shit. Story was never a factor; gameplay was never a factor, after that leap. FF games are painful and predictable: the same crap love story, the same boring ATB system that never had a thing done to it (or, in the case of FFX, a turn-based battle system that was even older) and the same "plot twists" that you could predict coming a mile off. If you've played one Final Fantasy game, you've pretty much played them all. People always disagree with that, usually on the basis of different characters, but Square Enix recycle characters more often than Namco Bandai do. They have maybe nine or ten different character types, and six or seven of them will appear in every Final Fantasy game. The only way to get anything out of FF characters is to over-analyze them and pretend that there are differences in personality between them.

Perhaps the sole exception to this is FFXII, which is why I think so many people didn't like it: it cast aside the cliche tropes, cast aside the need for a crap love plot in the story, pushed the ATB system into its next logical step, and actually tried to be different. Whether you like or hate the direction it took, there is no denying that it was different, unlike any other FF game from VII onwards. Some may argue that of FFXIII as well, but taking things out does not equate to progression. It added nothing to the evolution that FFXII started; it removed all of that and pushed the series back further. One step forward, about five steps backwards.

Square Enix are hardly the only ones guilty of adopting the style over substance approach, but as many developers and gamers look to them to set an example as to what a good video game should look like, that they have turned the Final Fantasy series into what it is now is just plain unforgivable.

 

[Razberry Knight]

I suppose Final Fantasy never stopped being what it was, the problem is that what it was - and what it is - changed to become something mediocre. Square Enix have gone from being one of the leaders of the JRPG genre to being just another metaphorical fish in the pond; the kind that's been around for years, is absolutely massive, and is caught by anyone and everyone who goes fishing in said pond, to the point where it's unremarkable. They rely ENTIRELY on past success and massive advertising campaigns to sell their video games now; there is not a shred of what made their games so enjoyable originally present within their latest attempts. If Square Enix didn't have their extensive history and fanbase to rely upon to hype their games, they would likely be out of business by now. Final Fantasy has evolved, but it's evolved from being a series of games with progressive gameplay mechanics (FFI-FFVI) to a series that prioritizes graphics above everything else (FFVII onwards) and lacks any of the appeal that earlier FF games had. They've gone from being the lead in innovative gameplay to the lead in pushing a console's performance to its limits...which, whilst it isn't a bad thing in itself, is a bad thing for a JRPG, because JRPGs are, and always have been, about telling a story, which is quite easy to do without flashy graphics to accompany it.

People might attribute this failure to FFX, or FFXII, but the problem started a long time before that: it started with FFVII, with the shift from 2D to 3D graphics. Suddenly, it became a competition to see who could make the prettiest looking pile of shit. Story was never a factor; gameplay was never a factor, after that leap. FF games are painful and predictable: the same crap love story, the same boring ATB system that never had a thing done to it (or, in the case of FFX, a turn-based battle system that was even older) and the same "plot twists" that you could predict coming a mile off. If you've played one Final Fantasy game, you've pretty much played them all. People always disagree with that, usually on the basis of different characters, but Square Enix recycle characters more often than Namco Bandai do. They have maybe nine or ten different character types, and six or seven of them will appear in every Final Fantasy game. The only way to get anything out of FF characters is to over-analyze them and pretend that there are differences in personality between them.

Perhaps the sole exception to this is FFXII, which is why I think so many people didn't like it: it cast aside the cliche tropes, cast aside the need for a crap love plot in the story, pushed the ATB system into its next logical step, and actually tried to be different. Whether you like or hate the direction it took, there is no denying that it was different, unlike any other FF game from VII onwards. Some may argue that of FFXIII as well, but taking things out does not equate to progression. It added nothing to the evolution that FFXII started; it removed all of that and pushed the series back further. One step forward, about five steps backwards.

Square Enix are hardly the only ones guilty of adopting the style over substance approach, but as many developers and gamers look to them to set an example as to what a good video game should look like, that they have turned the Final Fantasy series into what it is now is just plain unforgivable.

the difference is the focus on graphics didn't effect the other features up until XII or XIII. whichever one you find most appropriate. Other than that, FFVII was a step forward really, it made things more diverse. Addition to a few more featured minigames and allowing to progress more. And although not all of them are completely original, they were entertaining. this is why i believe what makes final fantasy is the fact that they let us travel throughout the world SE created. (except XIII ofcourse)

 

[Shaissa]

the difference is the focus on graphics didn't effect the other features up until XII or XIII.

Right... Let see.. SQuare jumps to Sony playstation over Nintendo's N64 because they can work with Real 3D and CGI, FFIX they pushed the playstion Graphic's to the max.

FFX they push to see how good they can make the game without a full length movie... Then they put so much money into a Full length movie to the point where the work looks like real people are in the movie...

Yeah no graphics were never effect with the others....

Seriously??? Square was always pushing how far they could push the graphics with Final Fantasy.

And You traveled across the world a lot more in XII than you do any other game, and XIII did what X was really, red arrow that told you where to go. And Final Fantasy didn't really have any real mini games till VII with Chocobo Racing...

 

[Razberry Knight]

Right... Let see.. SQuare jumps to Sony playstation over Nintendo's N64 because they can work with Real 3D and CGI, FFIX they pushed the playstion Graphic's to the max.

FFX they push to see how good they can make the game without a full length movie... Then they put so much money into a Full length movie to the point where the work looks like real people are in the movie...

Yeah no graphics were never effect with the others....

Seriously??? Square was always pushing how far they could push the graphics with Final Fantasy.

And You traveled across the world a lot more in XII than you do any other game, and XIII did what X was really, red arrow that told you where to go. And Final Fantasy didn't really have any real mini games till VII with Chocobo Racing...

are you cross-eyed and thats the reason why you made this point? i know they focused on graphics. how does any of this matter to my point?

 

[Apricots]

Honestly I think 7 is the point at which it went downhill. However, 9 and 10 are my favorites, but partly because I feel like they went back to the Final Fantasy roots -- though 10 did so less blatantly than 9.

7, 8, 12, and 13 do not feel like FF to me (granted I do like 8 a lot, the others I do not like at all).