which Cloud Pairing do you Support???

[eisprinz]

I'm a definite fan of Cloti. I do believe that Cloud and Aeris did share a kind of love that was evidently profound, heightened by the direness of their lives, however I don't believe they were meant to be.

The best way for me to describe it is the show the two relationships as analogous to the romantic struggles of the Everyman.

Aeris represents first loves, high school romances, puppy love. The love she shares with Cloud is fraught with a certain passion, however also a definite innocence. Even after it's long gone, the Everyman will look back on the first love with tenderness, or alternatively will dwell upon it in the fashion that Cloud dwells upon his inability to save Aeris.

On the other hand, Tifa represents love actually. Her love that she offers Cloud is more mature, offering herself in a way that is grounded much more in reality than the airy love that Aeris offered.

One could also alternately say that the two represent different stages of love; Aeris represents the love shared with a girlfriend and Tifa represents the loved shared with a wife.

Such views are supported by the events in the game in which Aeris dies, while Tifa remains and takes care of Cloud. Puppy love must fade, despite the fact that it holds a passion unlike anything else, however when love has matured, it has the ability to fulfill the soul in a way that puppy love can't comprehend.

As characters, both couples are compatible. However, in prospect of the long term, it seems more likely for Cloud and Tifa to survive, but that's just my opinion.

Not to mention the fact that Cloud probably isn't into necrophilia.

 

[Grimoire Valentine]

Eisprinz, that was one of the most intelligent and well thought out posts I've read in a long time. Although, I admit, I may be a bit biased!

 

[Rockman X]

I'm a definite fan of Cloti. I do believe that Cloud and Aeris did share a kind of love that was evidently profound, heightened by the direness of their lives, however I don't believe they were meant to be.

The best way for me to describe it is the show the two relationships as analogous to the romantic struggles of the Everyman.

Aeris represents first loves, high school romances, puppy love. The love she shares with Cloud is fraught with a certain passion, however also a definite innocence. Even after it's long gone, the Everyman will look back on the first love with tenderness, or alternatively will dwell upon it in the fashion that Cloud dwells upon his inability to save Aeris.

On the other hand, Tifa represents love actually. Her love that she offers Cloud is more mature, offering herself in a way that is grounded much more in reality than the airy love that Aeris offered.

One could also alternately say that the two represent different stages of love; Aeris represents the love shared with a girlfriend and Tifa represents the loved shared with a wife.

Such views are supported by the events in the game in which Aeris dies, while Tifa remains and takes care of Cloud. Puppy love must fade, despite the fact that it holds a passion unlike anything else, however when love has matured, it has the ability to fulfill the soul in a way that puppy love can't comprehend.

As characters, both couples are compatible. However, in prospect of the long term, it seems more likely for Cloud and Tifa to survive, but that's just my opinion.

Not to mention the fact that Cloud probably isn't into necrophilia.

OMG, we have an intelligent newb (newb, not n00b) here! Major kudos to you, eisprinz. What you said is what i've tried to say, but you said it so much more eloquently.

 

[Amizon]

I'm a definite fan of Cloti. I do believe that Cloud and Aeris did share a kind of love that was evidently profound, heightened by the direness of their lives, however I don't believe they were meant to be.

The best way for me to describe it is the show the two relationships as analogous to the romantic struggles of the Everyman.

Aeris represents first loves, high school romances, puppy love. The love she shares with Cloud is fraught with a certain passion, however also a definite innocence. Even after it's long gone, the Everyman will look back on the first love with tenderness, or alternatively will dwell upon it in the fashion that Cloud dwells upon his inability to save Aeris.

On the other hand, Tifa represents love actually. Her love that she offers Cloud is more mature, offering herself in a way that is grounded much more in reality than the airy love that Aeris offered.

One could also alternately say that the two represent different stages of love; Aeris represents the love shared with a girlfriend and Tifa represents the loved shared with a wife.

Such views are supported by the events in the game in which Aeris dies, while Tifa remains and takes care of Cloud. Puppy love must fade, despite the fact that it holds a passion unlike anything else, however when love has matured, it has the ability to fulfill the soul in a way that puppy love can't comprehend.

As characters, both couples are compatible. However, in prospect of the long term, it seems more likely for Cloud and Tifa to survive, but that's just my opinion.

Not to mention the fact that Cloud probably isn't into necrophilia.

That basically sums up the whole reason for Cloti. Aeris is dead anyway and these two are best friends. Tifa cares deeply for Cloud and he wants to make sure she's safe. Remember the scene when he found Tifa in Aeris's church in AC? That's a sign that he does care. I'm all for Cloti in the end.

 

[Howl]

I'm a definite fan of Cloti. I do believe that Cloud and Aeris did share a kind of love that was evidently profound, heightened by the direness of their lives, however I don't believe they were meant to be.

The best way for me to describe it is the show the two relationships as analogous to the romantic struggles of the Everyman.

Aeris represents first loves, high school romances, puppy love. The love she shares with Cloud is fraught with a certain passion, however also a definite innocence. Even after it's long gone, the Everyman will look back on the first love with tenderness, or alternatively will dwell upon it in the fashion that Cloud dwells upon his inability to save Aeris.

On the other hand, Tifa represents love actually. Her love that she offers Cloud is more mature, offering herself in a way that is grounded much more in reality than the airy love that Aeris offered.

One could also alternately say that the two represent different stages of love; Aeris represents the love shared with a girlfriend and Tifa represents the loved shared with a wife.

Such views are supported by the events in the game in which Aeris dies, while Tifa remains and takes care of Cloud. Puppy love must fade, despite the fact that it holds a passion unlike anything else, however when love has matured, it has the ability to fulfill the soul in a way that puppy love can't comprehend.

As characters, both couples are compatible. However, in prospect of the long term, it seems more likely for Cloud and Tifa to survive, but that's just my opinion.

Not to mention the fact that Cloud probably isn't into necrophilia.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I could not have said it better myself. I wish that everyone would agree with this viewpoint. I have always said that Aeris is the lighthearted side of Cloud, and that Tifa is the yin to his yang, as we see when she sheds light on him in times of need.

 

[~Crazy Chocobo~]

Nahhh, I reckon he was destined for Aeris but of course that never happened for obvious reasons. He does seem to fancy both of them and I always though that himself and Aeris would have made a very sweet couple. Aeris is my favorite female character in the game and have always thought that she would have made a better lover for Cloud. Tifa would also make a good lover as well, she's caring, sweet and you can tell she has strong feelings for Cloud in the end. He seemed to care about both girls and I wish Aeris could have been with him in the end but oh well, you can't always get what you want. Besides, it doesn't seem like Cloud wants to go into a relationship anyway.

 

[Franki-Chan]

It has to be Cloti, because Cloud did have feelings for Tifa once in his life, that is confirmed but were never know if he ever had romantic feelings for Aerith. I'm a Zerith, Yuffentine so I can't really support Clerith or Clouffie.

 

[Rockman X]

It has to be Cloti, because Cloud did have feelings for Tifa once in his life, that is confirmed but were never know if he ever had romantic feelings for Aerith.

Hmm... *scratches head* You know...i actually cant think of any particular instance where Cloud's bemoaning Aerith's dead is romantically related. I'm probably just forgetting stuff though, cuz i always figured he did have a crush on her. But, i've said it before and i'll say it again:

It makes no sense for Cloud to be in love with Aerith. He's known Tifa all his life, but just met Aerith. He never had time to get to know her that well, she never even has that much dialogue in the game compared to the others. I think if anything, Clerith fans severely exaggerate Cloud's affections toward Aerith. Sure, he might have had a crush on her, but nothing strong and intimate. All his grief for her was probably because:

1. he lost a friend
2. he couldnt do anything to save her

 

[Daenerys]

He's known Tifa all his life

Now thats an even bigger misconception the the whole "Aerith is dead so he has to love Tifa" thing.

You can say that he's known Tifas his whole life but has she been friends with him his whole life? No. Tifa and Cloud calling each other "childhood friends" is illogical.

When Tifa helps Cloud reconstruct his memories you see that Cloud was never friends with Tifa, he was always the exile of the little group, the outcast from her Clique, the kid they always picked on.

So Saying that Clouds known Tifa all his life....just no.

 

[Mitsuki]

I'm a definite fan of Cloti. I do believe that Cloud and Aeris did share a kind of love that was evidently profound, heightened by the direness of their lives, however I don't believe they were meant to be.

The best way for me to describe it is the show the two relationships as analogous to the romantic struggles of the Everyman.

Aeris represents first loves, high school romances, puppy love. The love she shares with Cloud is fraught with a certain passion, however also a definite innocence. Even after it's long gone, the Everyman will look back on the first love with tenderness, or alternatively will dwell upon it in the fashion that Cloud dwells upon his inability to save Aeris.

On the other hand, Tifa represents love actually. Her love that she offers Cloud is more mature, offering herself in a way that is grounded much more in reality than the airy love that Aeris offered.

One could also alternately say that the two represent different stages of love; Aeris represents the love shared with a girlfriend and Tifa represents the loved shared with a wife.

Such views are supported by the events in the game in which Aeris dies, while Tifa remains and takes care of Cloud. Puppy love must fade, despite the fact that it holds a passion unlike anything else, however when love has matured, it has the ability to fulfill the soul in a way that puppy love can't comprehend.

As characters, both couples are compatible. However, in prospect of the long term, it seems more likely for Cloud and Tifa to survive, but that's just my opinion.

Not to mention the fact that Cloud probably isn't into necrophilia.

I couldn't have explained it better myself. =) I do agree that Cloud loves both women and both loves him. However, the fact that Aerith died really lessened the chance that the love between them could continue in a way that brings a happy ending. I interpreted this as Tifa and Cloud having a second chance...because quite frankly, I do believe that Cloud and Aerith would have ended up together if she had lived.

Now now, before any of you blows up with "Cloud would never stop loving Aerith just because she died..." - No, I'm not saying that at all. What I'm doing is looking at a more realistic point of view...that although Aerith died, she will always be a part of Cloud and their love won't fade away just because death is in-between them.

However, there's still Tifa to reconsider though. I believe he also loved her. Now, as far as what type of love, I will never know. At times I think he loved her only as a friend, and other times I'll think that he did love her as you would a lover. The fact that I wasn't sure is what made me neutral with the whole love triangle scenario. However, that doesn't really matter because the fact that she's still alive is the symbolism of reality that their love can bloom into something stronger. It's a possibility, no matter how people would like to deny it due to favoritism of a Cloud and Aerith pairing.

Cloud's love with Aerith was a romantic but tragic one - something that would be a beautiful love if only given a chance, while his love with Tifa is either an old flame that can be rekindled or a chance at a new beginning. And I'll end it with that.

 

[einlanzer]

Now thats an even bigger misconception the the whole "Aerith is dead so he has to love Tifa" thing.

That's an oversimplification of the argument, to the point of strawmanning. It's not like Cloud is picking off flower petals trying to choose, and then one of them dies, and the other "wins" by default. Cloud and Tifa's dynamic began long before either of them had any clue who Aerith was. This is really obvious in Last Order.

You can say that he's known Tifas his whole life but has she been friends with him his whole life? No. Tifa and Cloud calling each other "childhood friends" is illogical.

When Tifa helps Cloud reconstruct his memories you see that Cloud was never friends with Tifa, he was always the exile of the little group, the outcast from her Clique, the kid they always picked on.

So Saying that Clouds known Tifa all his life....just no.

Ok, then Cloud was fixated on Tifa from childhood onward, and Tifa was fixated on Cloud from the promise scene onward, even if they weren't technically friends. Sound better?

 

[Daenerys]

That's an oversimplification of the argument, to the point of strawmanning.

Sad, but so very true.

Cloud and Aerith won't work, because of that whole dead personXalive person thing

I don´t personally support a relation between a living guy and a dead person

Cluffie for me. I adore Yuffie, and seeing how Aerith dies

I mean come on Aerith is dead

Aeris is dead anyway

You see these types of arguments a lot. for one its a weak argument, especially the whole Necrophilia thing, because you can clearly love someone without having the urge to - for want of a better word - screw them. And to me it shows that you don't have much Faith in your pairing if you can destroy the other one by simply going "Oh well she's dead..."

Tifa was fixated on Cloud from the promise scene onward

I think she wasn't fixated on Cloud exactly, but more like the idea of Cloud, of a Hero that would come and rescue her whenever she was in trouble, she didn't pay Cloud any attention at all before he said he was going to join SOLDIER and then she took an interest. so is it truly cloud she was fixated on or the idea that she has her own personal Hero to come save her?

 

[Doc Holliday]

I find this forum's lack of fellation for Clojo disturbing.

 

[Franki-Chan]

You see these types of arguments a lot. for one its a weak argument, especially the whole Necrophilia thing, because you can clearly love someone without having the urge to - for want of a better word - screw them. And to me it shows that you don't have much Faith in your pairing if you can destroy the other one by simply going "Oh well she's dead..."

Still the fact she is dead. Her relationship with Cloud never got the chance to grow because she was brutally taken away from him, I've always maintained the fact, that Cloud did seem interested in Aerith due to the fact, Tifa kept her hiding her feelings and he never got any real attention from her, and out pops Aerith whose asking for dates and telling him he's cute. It what Tifa needed to make her realise that she is not the only person in Cloud's eyes and she needs to fight for him.

I think she wasn't fixated on Cloud exactly, but more like the idea of Cloud, of a Hero that would come and rescue her whenever she was in trouble, she didn't pay Cloud any attention at all before he said he was going to join SOLDIER and then she took an interest. so is it truly cloud she was fixated on or the idea that she has her own personal Hero to come save her?

But was Aerith any better? I think we are forgetting the fact, that Aerith wanted someone to look after her too, she wanted a bodyguard. Aerith saw Zack in Cloud, but did you see Tifa lose any interest in Cloud after she finds out he never got inro Solider? I would say she loved him even more.
If Tifa wanted someone just cause they were in Solider she would have shown an interest in Zack or even Sephiroth. Its the fact that Cloud left Nibelheim and Tifa didn't realise how much he meant to her.

 

[Serene]

I think she wasn't fixated on Cloud exactly, but more like the idea of Cloud

Typical of a crush. How often do we have crushes on people we don't interact with often (or at all)? The point is, Cloud and Tifa have a history of being preoccupied with each other.

Having said that, I don't believe young Cloud/Tifa's relationship was that antagonistic. I never got the impression that she deliberately excluded or bullied him. More like she was simply unaware. We do know she thought he was cute back then.

My thoughts on the promise: I'm of the opinion that she was aware of him before the well scene. The promise was more a way to make a connection with him, rather than a literal "you won't be good enough until you're a SOLDIER who can rescue me." As she says in the Lifestream, "You came. You kept your promise" (paraphrased), even though he wasn't in SOLDIER and wasn't famous. What was important to her was that he remembered her.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Okay guys, calm down. Don't let this get out of hand.

Now thats an even bigger misconception the the whole "Aerith is dead so he has to love Tifa" thing.

You can say that he's known Tifas his whole life but has she been friends with him his whole life? No. Tifa and Cloud calling each other "childhood friends" is illogical.

When Tifa helps Cloud reconstruct his memories you see that Cloud was never friends with Tifa, he was always the exile of the little group, the outcast from her Clique, the kid they always picked on.

So Saying that Clouds known Tifa all his life....just no.

Again, I agree, because someone is dead doesn't mean you stop loving someone.

*sigh* I've said it all before, but I guess saying it again won't kill me.

Okay, here's the deal. Cloud has known Tifa all his life. They grew up together in the same very small town. It's impossible NOT to know each other. They weren't really childhood friends.

Cloud was an outcast, true, but by his own choosing. Yes, I know, people never choose to be the outcast because no one wants to be the outcast. I know. But he was and he did. He was never in this 'group' of Tifa and the others because he thought they were immature and he didn't know how to approach them. Thus, he and Tifa never really got to know each other, as much as he wanted to get to know Tifa because he had feelings for her. (Yes, yes he did)

However, Tifa thought they were, and always had been, childhood friends. This is mistake. You see, after Tifa had fallen from the cliff as a child, she went into a coma. She was aware though, that Cloud had tried to save her. Maybe that was the last thing she remembered. So, inadvertantly, she developed feelings for Cloud. However, her memory was damaged a little bit, since she thought that she and Cloud had always been really close. She thought this because of her new feelings for him.

So, in the beginning they both had feelings for each other, until Cloud's head got messed up. But that's another story for another thread.

 

[Daenerys]

I think I'll have to go with CloudxTifa. Nomura calling Tifa a koibito pretty much sealed it for me.

Im so glad you used the word Koibito, because here i have a quote that completely destroys it and all of Cloud and Tifas romantic progression during the game. its quite long though, so settle down and prepare for a read

In Advent Children, it becomes clear that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is still strained, as it was in the official novella Case of Tifa. Cloud has rejected the company of his former companions, including Tifa. He is seen listening to his voice mails, but not making any attempt to call anyone back. He has distanced himself from everyone and has actually moved into Aerith's church. For more information on Cloud and Aerith in AC, go here.

As it turns out, Cloud has been afflicted with a terminal disease called Geostigma. Rather than spending his final days with his family and friends, Cloud chooses to seek refuge in a place where he feels closest to the flower girl he lost. He also refuses to tell anyone of his sickness or speak to anyone in regards to the deep burden he is carrying in his heart (sorrow and guilt for the death of Aerith, which he was unable to prevent).

Tifa, meanwhile, is running the new and improved Seventh Heaven in Edge, just outside of Midgar. She is taking care of Barret's daughter, Marlene, as well as an orphan boy named Denzel, whom Cloud found one day at Aerith's church. She is also acting as a relay, sending Cloud messages in regards to his delivery service.

As the movie progresses, it becomes increasingly clear that Tifa is extremely frustrated with Cloud. He ran off without telling her where he was going, to go live in Aerith's church. Then, he hid the fact that he has Geostigma from her. Not only that, but he stays gone all the time, never checks in, and refuses to speak of his inner issues with her. To me, this was the first big hint that there will absolutely never be a romance of any sort between Cloud and Tifa. No man that is in love with a woman would treat her like this. Period.

Honestly, Cloud and Tifa don't have many moments together in the movie. He actually spends more time communing with the spirit of Aerith in this movie than he does in Tifa's presence (yet another big clue that the idea of a CloTi romance is pretty much dead and buried). So, what makes CloTis think that AC was CloTi? What is their so-called "proof"? I will be addressing the "CloTi evidence" which is supposedly present in the Compilation in this analysis.

1. "Cloud is/was living with Tifa! That means they are lovers/Tifa is his girlfriend!"

Barret lived at Seventh Heaven with Tifa before Cloud joined AVALANCHE in FFVII. Actually, Tifa and Barret were raising Marlene together. Does this mean they were lovers? No. Heck, there were two other men in AVALANCHE that lived there with Tifa, too. Did she get romantically involved with any of them? No. But, suddenly, now that Cloud is involved, living at Seventh Heaven automatically means he and Tifa are shacked up? I think not.

Actually, if you look at things logically, there are several facts that completely disprove that Tifa was Cloud's girlfriend. All of them revolve around the fact that, if Cloud was close enough to Tifa to consider her his girlfriend and/or lover, then he would have no reason to act in the following ways:

a. Depressed, brooding, angsty- If Cloud was in love with Tifa and was loved in return, why would he have any reason to feel this way? Wouldn't being in love with someone make him happy? Why would he want to hurt the woman he loved by acting this way? Generally, being in love tends to make people happy, not miserable. Regardless of what issues Cloud was dealing with, if he were in love with Tifa, he would have allowed her to help him, he would have been able to share his pain with her, and he would have made some attempt to keep in touch with her. And yet Cloud did none of these things.

b. Moving into Aerith's church after he became ill with Geostigma and not telling Tifa about it- If Cloud truly loved Tifa, he would be able to depend on her when he was faced with a crisis such as this. If Cloud truly loved Tifa, he would want to spend the time he had left with her [at Seventh Heaven], not in an abandoned church that constantly reminds him of another woman. When Cloud was faced with a terminal illness, he ran to Aerith (or the closest thing he could get to Aerith- her church, where they were first properly introduced). Why would he do this if Tifa is the one he loves?

c. Losing the will to live- Why would Cloud lose his will to live if he had something or someone worth living for? Tifa says herself that Cloud has chosen not to fight and was going to "give up and die". If Cloud truly loved Tifa, she would have been enough motivation for him to fight to live. This point alone is enough proof that there is nothing romantic going on between Cloud and Tifa.

Honestly, Cloud does not begin to regain hope again in AC until he meets Aerith. The turning point for Cloud in AC is after his first meeting with Aerith, after which he learns that she never truly left him at all. It is only at the end of the movie, after seeing Aerith smiling back at him, that Cloud realizes that he is not alone anymore.

d. Rejecting the company of others- In the movie, Cloud refuses to answer Tifa's calls to his mobile phone. He listens to her messages and doesn't even call her back. We also see, in one scene, that Cloud's other friends have tried to call him and have been unanswered. If Tifa was Cloud's chosen love, wouldn't he make an effort to speak with her? However, we see that Tifa gets no special treatment. Cloud obviously doesn't consider her to be any different than the rest of his friends, does he? In fact, in one scene, the only voice that is able to comfort and reassure Cloud is the voice of Aerith.

e. Refusing help when it is offered- After Tifa and Cloud are carried inside, unconscious, by Reno and Rude, Tifa says this to Cloud:

"Don't run! We'll fight it together! We can help each other! I know we can!"

Cloud says nothing, looking at the floor.

Tifa turns away, disappointed. "I guess that only works for real families."

"Tifa," Cloud says at last, still refusing to look at her. "I'm not fit to help anyone. Not my family, not my friends... nobody." After that, Cloud doesn't say anything more to her.

So, why would Cloud turn his back on Tifa's offer if he really loves her? If Cloud was truly in love with Tifa, he would have accepted her help. Obviously, rejecting her offer caused her pain. Why would Cloud treat his "true love" in such a callous manner? [sarcasm]Um, maybe because he isn't in love with her?[/sarcasm] XD

Also, in Tifa's official profile from AC, it states that she is "disappointed in Cloud, who has closed off his heart and is lost in memories of his past". That sure doesn't sound like the profile of someone's chosen love, does it?

2. "Oh, really??? Well, Tifa was confirmed to be Cloud's lover by the creators!"

No. If some CloTi tells you this, demand a source, because they are full of it. Nothing of the sort was ever confirmed. In fact, if one of them says this, it is because they are twisting the words of the creators to suit their own purposes. Would you like to know which quote they are twisting? From Reunion Files (Tifa's profile):

"There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle." (Nomura)

Now allow me to point out the obvious...

a. Nomura was talking about Tifa's character here, not roles. Tifa is like a mother, like a sweetheart, and like an ally in battle. Anyone with the slightest comprehension of the English language should be able to understand that the "like" carries to all of the items in a series when it is placed at the beginning. Honestly, I can't believe I have to explain this, but, apparently, some members of the fandom are so desperate that they have to make up shit. Therefore, please allow me to give you definitions of the term "character":

"the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or thing"

"the combination of qualities or features that distinguishes one person, group, or thing from another"

"one of the attributes or features that make up and distinguish an individual"

None of the definitions for "character" mention roles... period. Tifa is "like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle" in that she embodies traits that one might find in a mother, a sweetheart, or a close ally in battle. These qualities are what distinguish Tifa from other characters and are the dimensions that Nomura wished to portray when creating AC Tifa. Nomura was making a general statement about Tifa's character (that is, her qualities). If someone is making this statement out to be more than that, then they are ignoring the words of Nomura himself.

b. Cloud wasn't mentioned in this statement. There is no way in hell that Cloud is associated with this statement. No mention. No pictures. Nothing. Nada. Again, I am amazed that I have to point out something so obvious. In the entire page that this quote was printed on and even the page facing it... no pictures at all of Cloud. Again, if someone tries to associate this statement with Cloud, they are twisting facts into something more suited for their purposes. They are grasping at straws, plain and simple.

c. If Nomura didn't solve the love triangle in AC, he sure as hell isn't going to do it in two sentences in a book. Last time I looked, Nomura was quite careful about the portrayal of Cloud's relationships with Aerith and Tifa in AC. There was no definite answer, only subtle clues. Why go through all of the trouble to depict a subtle picture of Cloud's emotions only to publish a book and, in two sentences, solve the love triangle? He is not going to give a definite answer to the love triangle... ever (even if I wish he would just so I could be proven right).

From as far back as the release of Kingdom Hearts:

Q: "Okay then, so the person Cloud is searching for is Aeris, right?"

Nomura: "Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so you can take it that way. Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought."

Nomura stated that interpreting Aeris as the one Cloud was searching for was a correct interpretation, but then backtracked and stated that he wanted to leave room for other interpretations because he didn't wish to decide anything for Cloud due to other fans' "strong conclusions" [in regards to the love triangle]. Nomura is a smart man... and a good businessman. He isn't going to solve the LT simply because he would anger a large portion of the fandom either way. He would lose money when that angry half (*cough*CloTis*cough*) stopped buying FF products. Nomura has discovered that it is far more profitable to drop little hints to support ClAeris and little scraps for CloTis to twist. Keeping everyone arguing just keeps us all begging for more, doesn't it? However, the answers are there if you look. It isn't really "open to interpretation" at all.

From Newtype USA (Oct. 2005):

Open Ending: To this day, FFVII continues to draw some fire for its ambiguous ending. It's a satisfying conclusion [and beautiful to behold], but it doesn't hold the player's hand through a lengthy denouement the way 16-bit Final Fantasy games do. That shift in presentation, Tetsuya Nomura insists, was entirely intentional-- the goal was to make players think a little harder and pay closer attention to a more complex storyline. "I don't know if you could really say that FFVII had any unanswered questions to speak of," claims Nomura, taking what some of his fans [or detractors] might characterize as a slightly controversial stand. "We just created FFVII with the idea that we wouldn't just come out and tell people the answers. The answers are there, but no one is there to tell you where to look for them. We didn't leave anything hanging." Nomura, of course, had the advantage of the original game's scriptwriter sitting across the office to point out where to look. But, on the bright side, if Square had pointed everything out, there might not have been enough demand for a sequel like Advent Children.

To work out all the movie's secrets, the hardest of the hardcore should plan on multiple viewings. Like the original game, "Advent Children follows suit in not revealing the answers directly," says a slightly cryptic Tetsuya Nomura. "Some parts you'll probably have to watch several times before you get it, but it should come eventually."

So, why do all of this to just go, "Oh, BTW, Tifa is Cloud's lover!" in one paragraph in a book??? 0_o That makes absolutely no sense. The answers are there if you look for them, but S-E is never going to give a direct, definite answer to the love triangle, as some CloTis are suggesting they have.

d. The only relationship confirmed between Cloud and Tifa is that of family and, actually, Tifa was confirmed to have a "maternal bond" with Cloud. That's right, Tifa is more like a mother to Cloud than a sweetheart. XD Actually, Nomura himself stated that Tifa has a maternal bond with Cloud, in a paragraph directly before the one where he described Tifa as being "like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle". So, why would Nomura state that Tifa is like a mother to Cloud and then turn around and say that she is his sweetheart? Once again-- it doesn't make any sense (like most CloTi "evidence")!

The direct quote from Reunion Files:

"Tifa was a very difficult character to create. Like Aerith, she has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a 'big kid' himself in some respects. Yet despite this, she continues working as the manager of Seventh Heaven without a complaint." (Nomura)

So, Nomura states that both Tifa and Aerith have maternal sides to them, but that Tifa's maternal side is different. He then applies Tifa's maternal side directly to Cloud and states right there that Tifa has a maternal bond with Cloud. Why paint a picture of Tifa as a mother to Marlene, Denzel, and Cloud, and then turn around and say that she is his lover? That is a sickening idea! Are you CloTis pedophiles, or what? XD Honestly, Cloud acts like a rebellious teenager all throughout Case of Tifa and AC, running off on his motorcycle, staying gone all the time, clamming up and not speaking with Tifa, hiding things from Tifa, etc... Tifa, on the other hand, acts like a concerned parent, worrying about Cloud and scolding him on several occasions. A few examples of this...

From Case of Tifa:

(During a conversation with Tifa) ... Cloud made a familiar face, like a child who knew a scolding was inevitable...

Cloud gazed at Tifa with the expression of a child whose worst secret had just been let out of the bag...

...He's like a child, Tifa thought. While it made her sad that Cloud could see another world she knew nothing about, the idea his world was expanding at all was a welcome one. Yes... Maybe this is kind of what a mother feels like. Once she saw Cloud off, Tifa was alone with the new emotions growing inside her and was happy.

If Tifa is happy with her new role as a mother figure to Cloud, I have a hard time understanding why CloTis force her into a romance that she seems to have given up on. While Tifa may or may not harbor romantic feelings for Cloud by the time AC rolls around, she has clearly accepted the fact that she has no future with Cloud as anything other than a friend who is like family.

From Reunion Files:

"Although there's a lot to Tifa's character, she's actually very much like any other woman who's been left behind by a man. The director, Nomura, said he wanted to make sure she wasn't a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she's been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. But Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times." (Nojima)

Ouch! XD This statement pretty much screams rejection. Tifa was left behind by Cloud? She has expressed her feelings to Cloud many times? And yet he still shows no signs of reciprocation? Wow, no wonder she decided that maternal feelings were better than romantic ones. XD I also find it amusing that Nomura specifically stated that he didn't want to portray Tifa as clingy. That statement, in and of itself, proves that Tifa's affections are one-sided. Women don't have to cling to men who reciprocate their feelings. If Nomura wanted to make sure that Tifa didn't seem clingy in AC, he must have considered her actions to be that of a clingy woman at some point and decided that he didn't wish for her to seem pathetic in this movie. However, he still wished to portray her as someone who had been hurt emotionally. So, logically, a CloTi romance is pretty far-fetched at this point, yes?

From the Dirge of Cerberus strategy guide:

"After helping Cloud set up his delivery service, Tifa got involved with the displaced youth of Midgar and opened an orphanage. She keeps in close contact with Cloud and Barret and remains the steadying force she always way- or at least tried to be. Although she has a small role in this game, she remains as likable as ever and continues to show the traits that always made her such a great friend."

Gee, what happened to "sweetheart"? XD And what happened to it being just Cloud and Tifa? I thought you CloTis had written Barret out of the picture? Sorry, but Barret is a part of the family whether you guys like it or not.

Also, from the DoC game booklet:

Tifa Lockhart, Cloud's childhood friend and a master of martial arts.

Aerith Gainsborough, a girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget.

So, Tifa is still not being called Cloud's "sweetheart" here either, huh? I thought you CloTis said that Nomura solved the LT in one paragraph (that received no special attention) in Reunion Files? Did they forget or something? Did someone neglect to send out the memo "Nomura solved the LT in some book and now Cloud and Teefs are an item"? XD Oh, well... Tifa is Cloud's friend and Aerith is someone who he will never forget. The bit about Cloud never forgetting Aerith sure seems more romantic to me than Tifa being Cloud's friend. I am happy with that.

3. "The word koibito, which was used to describe Tifa only has romantic connotations and is only used when someone is in a reciprocated romance!"

Oh really? Nihon no Koibito= "Japan's sweetheart". And Shiroi Koibito is a brand of white chocolate cookies from Japan. Their name means "white beloved ones". So, no, koibito isn't just used to describe people in a relationship, it is used as a general adjective as well. Please refer to #2 for more information on the misconception that Tifa was somehow confirmed to be Cloud's love interest.

Also, according to Shadow Spirit (a Japanese descendant, who was raised in a household learning Japanese customs from members of his family who were born and raised in Japan, and who is also fluent in the Japanese language) and Resha (who is also raised in a household much like SS's and has many friends who are Japanese natives as well as FFVII fans), fans who are attempting to translate the Japanese sections of Reunion Files are mucking it up. They ask that you please stop butchering the Japanese language and wish for all FFVII fans to know that Japanese is a difficult language to fully grasp unless you are native to Japan or have been raised according to Japanese culture/customs. Therefore, please allow me to educate you on the word koi bito, as described by Shadow Spirit and Resha.

Koi bito (that's right, it is actually two words): Koi= romantic love; bito= person (slang for hito). Koi bito, written in katakana or hiragana can have various definitions, such as "sweetheart", "lover", or "boyfriend/girlfriend" (its meaning can be confusing when written this way). However, koi bito written in kanji (as it is in Reunion Files), is simply "the person who loves" and offers no answers on whether or not this person's feelings are returned. In other words, Tifa embodies the traits of "a person who loves", and nothing more. It says nothing about any type of reciprocated feelings from anyone. Resha also stated that, if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship, Tifa would more than likely be called aikoi or aikou.

Koi bito, according to Resha and Shadow Spirit, is one of the most overused Japanese words with non-Japanese anime/manga fans. They take the meaning to simply be "girlfriend/boyfriend", which isn't always the case. As previously stated, koi bito can be spelled out with either katakana/hiragana or kanji. When kanji is used, the meaning is "the one who does the loving", but it is unknown if that person's love is returned.

Also, according to Resha, all of her FF friends in Japan consider ClAeris to be the canon couple, although some of them do prefer CloTi as a fanon couple. None of them are up in the air over this koi bito business and, when asked, they say that it is obvious that Cloud loves Aerith because of what is shown in the original game as well as the movie. If only Western fans could figure it out as easily, eh?

4. "But it was confirmed that Cloud and Tifa are 'together'!"

Once again... no. Actually, the quote that CloTis are referring to here is from Reunion Files:

Nojima explains, "Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be back home where they belonged. Two years is too short to forget the past completely, but it's still a pretty long time... And two years older was a good age for Marlene to start talking a little." The reason Nojima narrowed the location down to the area surrounding their house, he says, was to create a sense of crisis close to home.

Nojima was speaking of locations here, people. Directly in front of this quote it says "Why we chose to set it two years later...". It doesn't say anything about the relationship between Cloud and Tifa (or anyone else for that matter). The entire page (and the next page after) that this quote appears on focuses on locations, not relationships. Cloud and Tifa were together in Edge at Seventh Heaven. They are the only two from the original game's party that are together in some form or fashion when AC rolls around. Barret is gone temporarily to dig for oil in Corel, otherwise he would be with them. Honestly, all you have to do is take a look at these pages in RF to see that I am correct. The rest of the page was devoted to other locations all over Gaia-- the Forgotten City, the Church, the Northern Crater....

And, once again, in Case of Barret, CloTis are twisting things to their liking, stating that Barret called Cloud and Tifa a couple, when he did nothing of the sort...

Barret: "I left Marlene with Tifa. Since she's taken to her and all."

Cid: "Good for you. Whole world's clappin' you on the back. So Cloud's with Tifa?"

Barret: "Yeah. Tifa opened a bar, just like the old days. Cloud was helpin' out, but it sounds like he's got his own business keepin' him tied up now. A delivery service."

When, exactly, does Barret mention Cloud and Tifa's relationship? Hell, when does Cid mention it? Neither of them do. In fact, later in the conversation, Cid and Barret go on to talk about where Red XIII, Yuffie, and Vincent are and what they're up to. The relationships of these people aren't mentioned at all. Once again, Barret was speaking of locations-- Cloud is with Tifa in Edge at Seventh Heaven, running a delivery service out of the new bar that Tifa is managing. They are together in the same location. End of story. Christ, I can't believe some people are taking this as proof of love between Cloud and Tifa. Talk about desperate...

5. "B-but, Cloud and Tifa were raising children together!"

Wrong again. Barret and Tifa were raising Marlene together. Actually, they still are. Barret may be gone temporarily in AC while digging for oil in Corel, but he is still Marlene's adopted father and the only one that she sees as her dad. And, when Dirge of Cerberus rolls around a year later, Barret is back. I would say it is safe to assume that he has returned to take care of Marlene, which would mean that, once again, he and Tifa are raising her together. Does this make them a couple in a romantic sense? No, I don't really think so. But some Barrifa fans like to see it that way and, quite frankly, Tifa and Barret get along better than Tifa and Cloud any day.

CloTis like to conveniently dismiss Barret because, when you add him into the equation, it makes it even more obvious that he is the father-figure in the little Seventh Heaven family. Tifa has already been confirmed to be the mother figure (see #2D) of the family. So, where does Cloud fit in? Like I have previously stated, Cloud is much like a rebellious teenager, staying gone all the time, roaming on his motorcycle. Cloud, who is "like a big kid", according to the creators, fits right in as the idolized big brother figure to Marlene and Denzel.

Honestly, when did Cloud ever act like a father to Marlene and Denzel??? Cloud was gone all the time, hiding things from Tifa, being scolded by her, running off without telling her where he was going, not answering her calls... what the hell kind of father would act like that??? In fact, in CoT, Cloud only started coming around again when he discovered Denzel at Aerith's church. Cloud later confessed to Tifa that he believed Aerith had brought Denzel to him. Cloud makes an attempt to spend more time at Seventh Heaven once Denzel begins living there and even gives Denzel his Cloudy Wolf ring. But, in the end, Cloud still deserts his family and friends due to his inability to forgive himself for Aerith's death. Cloud obviously loves Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene like family, but his feelings for Tifa never go beyond that.

6. "There is a picture of Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel all happy together as a family!"

*Falls over laughing* XD Okay, the picture in question shows Tifa leaning down with her arms around Denzel and Marlene with Cloud standing a good 2-3 feet away from them looking uncomfortable and morose. Happy??? Hardly. XD Cloud is standing with his back turned toward Tifa and the children, a frown on his face, looking at the ground. Cloud is most certainly not happy and he looks downright depressed. Honestly, if this is the best evidence you guys have, then just give up now. XD Besides, at the end of the movie, another picture is shown, and it contains the entire party, not just Cloud, Tifa, and the two orphans. This picture is of Cloud's real family, which contains all of AVALANCHE, not just Tifa and the kiddos. Also of note is the fact that the picture of Cloud with just Tifa and the orphans has been pushed to the back and is actually partially behind the new photo. Ouch!

Also of interest is the fact that Cloud's desk is scattered with literally dozens of pictures of the very flower field in which Aerith was seen standing during the bonus video, "Calling". Not only that but, directly in front of all of the pictures, right where their bright yellow color is sure to draw the viewer's eye first and foremost, are flowers picked from that very flower field.

7. "Cloud understands at the end of AC that he will never be alone again, because he has Tifa and he rides off to return to her!"

*Sighs* Stupid people make my brain sad. XD Okay, let me explain the ending of AC to you. Cloud has just spent the last few minutes with Aerith and Zack. From the moment Cloud's eyes land on Aerith, Tifa is completely ignored. Aerith tells Cloud that everything will be alright, smiles tenderly at him, and then walks into the light. Zack waves at Cloud and follows Aerith out of the church and back into the Lifestream. It is during this moment that Cloud states:

"I know. I'm not alone... not anymore...."

So... was there some sort of image of Tifa here? No. Cloud was completely focused on Aerith. His face is peaceful and his smile is sweet. Cloud is healed of his injuries and his heart has finally mended.

Cloud then rides off on Fenrir down a sunlit highway, as if he is going somewhere. Aerith is shown standing alone in a flower field. Then, she suddenly turns, as if sensing the approach of someone. Cloud hasn't passed her by yet, he is merely on the outskirts of the flower field. Cloud reaches the flower field and begins riding through it, the pink ribbon still on his arm, fluttering in the wind; the flowers stretch for miles and miles. The camera follows him no further. In the background, a song called "Calling" is playing during this entire scene. This song was especially picked by Tetsuya Nomura, who said this about the song:

"In the scene where it plays I'm trying to portray the message of the film and Cloud's feelings through silence and the song. I think people will feel the persuasive power of the song when they view the scene."

Here are the lyrics for the song, which have heavy ClAeris overtones:

"Calling" by Kyosuke Himuro

I wonder how many sleepless nights you have to count, before you find your way
After how many lives are lost, will the strife end?
Clowns that cannot be saved, just tumbling atop of history
Like someone said one day before
The answer is in the wind.

How many times does your face have to be hit as you turned it away, before you stop pretending that you don't notice?
How much pain must your endure, before you smile freely?
If you're going to accept defeat again, still bound by rusted chains
Like someone said one day before
The answer is in the wind.

With your voice strained and your hands gripping tightly
Waiting for the time when your destiny is sure to change
With the faint power of a tiny love
Always waiting for your sadness to be embraced

Pitiful frauds working their puzzles of lies
Foolish romanticists who gracefully entertain with clumsiness
The premonition of the coming of the day when history will tell you nothing
Like someone said one day before
The answer is in the wind.

With your voice strained and your hands gripping tightly
Waiting for the time when your destiny is sure to change
With the faint power of a tiny love
Always waiting for your sadness to be embraced.

So, Cloud and Aerith basically have their own music video with a song that speaks of love and sadness (which is supposed to reflect Cloud's feelings and help the viewer understand Cloud). Also, these scenes are actual locations, real scenery with Cloud and Aerith interposed on top. Special, no? What do Cloud and Tifa get? Nothing. Tifa is not even shown in the ending, except in the photos on Cloud's desk, along with the rest of Cloud's friends. And, in front of those photos are some of the yellow flowers from the exact flower field Aerith was standing in. Also, scattered all over the desk are photos of that same flower field. What does this tell us? That Cloud is visiting that particular flower field very often. And, more than likely, he is visiting with Aerith there. With this scene we know that Cloud has figured out where the Promised Land is and, as he vowed at the end of FFVII, he has found a way to meet Aerith once again.

How exactly does this have anything to do with Tifa? o_0 Cloud was not shown riding back to Seventh Heaven. And Tifa was not shown waiting apprehensively at the door to Seventh Heaven, as if awaiting Cloud's return. All that is shown is Cloud riding off alone toward a flower field that appears to be the same one that Aerith is in. This is between Cloud and Aerith folks. Tifa is not even a factor here. Nomura ended AC, Cloud's story, with nothing but pure ClAeris. Live with it.

8. "Cloud takes a day off to spend with Tifa!!!"

Um, no. In the extra short, "Reminiscence", we get a chance to see what Cloud was up to during the time he was shown traveling about in the video "Calling". Is he shown at Seventh Heaven? No. Actually, he is out riding around alone, still very much the lone-wolf type. During this segment, Cloud receives phone calls from his friends regarding a package he is to pick up from Barret for Marlene and Denzel. Cloud is shown at various locations, talking with his friends via cell phone and meeting up with Barret. Barret gives Cloud a present from Yuffie; it is a sign that says "Closed for Business". XD

The last call Cloud receives is from Tifa. Where is Cloud standing? You guessed it! The flower field! Here is Cloud's conversation with Tifa (you can only hear Cloud's part of the conversation):

Cloud: "Yeah, it's me. All I've got left are the Midgar deliveries. Why, did a client come in? Tell them no. I'm taking tomorrow off. No reason. Hey, Tifa. Can you close the bar tomorrow? That was easy. Okay. Tell Denzel and Marlene. I'll see you later."

So, how in the world does Cloud's convo=hawt date wit Teefz??? As I have already proven, Cloud doesn't treat Tifa like a love interest at all. In fact, in his conversation, he doesn't ask how she is doing, he doesn't ask her to go anywhere with him, nothing. I am completely at a loss trying to find anything romantic about this conversation. 0_o

Would you like to know what I think? Well, too bad, because I am going to tell you anyways... XD Yuffie is the one who gave Cloud the "Closed for Business" sign. Why in the world would Yuffie give Cloud a sign as a hint to close his business unless she was planning something with him that included herself? Does Yuffie even remotely sound like the kind of person to go, "OMG, here take this sign, close your business, and take Tifa on a date! *Giggle*" Hell no.

So, logically, what makes more sense? Yuffie giving Cloud the sign to push him into taking Tifa and the kids out (when one of those kids is Barret's, therefore leaving one child's true father totally out of the loop)? Or Yuffie giving Cloud the sign as a hint to take the day off to spend with all of them (AVALANCHE)? Honestly, when did you think that group picture you saw after "Calling" was taken? Obviously, there was a get-together at some point. And Yuffie was always the one who complained that they didn't see each other much in the two years between FFVII and AC. So, doesn't it make sense that Yuffie would be the one to plan this reunion (no pun intended)? They probably all met up at Seventh Heaven, had a little party, and snapped the pic. Makes a hell of a lot more sense than Yuffie planning a blind date with Tifa and two kids, doesn't it?

Another thing of interest is that, during Cloud's convo with Tifa, only his side of the phone conversation is heard. This is the only call of this kind during "Reminiscence". So, what does this mean? Is this conversation being heard from a different POV than Cloud's? Obviously. But, whose POV is it? Since it takes place in the flower field, it is possible that this conversation is being listened to by Aerith, who is there with Cloud.

9. "ZOMG, Tifa is wearing a Cloudy Wolf ring! She and Cloud are engaged/married!!!!!!"

Once again, some people are so dumb, it is scary.... I have a few points to make about this issue:

a. Tifa is not wearing Cloud's ring. First of all, do you really think Cloud would wear such a feminine-looking piece of jewelry? It was clearly made for a woman. Second of all, I doubt Cloud's ring would fit so nicely on Tifa's much smaller hand. Thirdly, Cloud has his own ring, which he gave to Denzel (the boy wears it on a chain around his neck). So, Cloud doesn't even wear his Cloudy Wolf ring, Denzel does. I guess that makes Cloud a pedo, huh? XD

b. Barret also wears a Cloudy Wolf ring. This point alone proves that Tifa's ring means diddly squat. Barret and Tifa are both wearing their rings, but Cloud isn't... hmm... BARRIFA 4EVA!!! XD In fact, I have a better idea about what the rings are for. Since the wolf in the movie was confirmed by Nomura to represent a burden deep within Cloud's psyche, then perhaps Cloud, Barret, and Tifa, the last three members of the original AVALANCHE crew, are wearing them to symbolize their regret for the lives lost due to the actions of AVALANCHE. Tifa's guilt was actually confirmed in Case of Tifa. Doesn't that make a lot more sense than Cloud being engaged to both Tifa and Barret? XD It could also be the reason why Cloud gave his ring to Denzel, since the boy did lose his parents when the plate fell on Sector 7 during the game (which was a result of Shinra trying to crush AVALANCHE). Maybe Cloud felt somewhat responsible for the death of Denzel's parents, since he was a member of AVALANCHE at the time.

c. When do we ever see Cloud buying the rings for Tifa and Barret? Never. For all we know, Tifa bought them, or even Barret. We don't know who bought them or where they came from.

d. Tifa's ring doesn't get a special close-up, like CloTis are claiming. The scene in question takes place when Tifa is berating Cloud for his brooding, angsty behavior. She is sitting on the bed, glaring at Cloud, while he stands with his head down, over by the Turks. Frustrated by Cloud's apathy, Tifa slams her right hand down on the bed, the camera cutting to her hand as she does so. So Tifa is acting out in anger against Cloud who has lost the will to live and is shutting her out of this heart. And this is romantic how? Give me a break... XD

Besides, Barret's ring also gets a quick close-up when Barret tosses Cloud up in the Bahamut battle. Hell, Barret is holding Cloud's hand during the close-up of his ring. I'd say that screams Clarret more than CloTi, don't you? XD

e. Tifa is wearing the ring on her right hand, not the left. Engagement/wedding rings are worn on the left, people. *Can't believe she has to point that out* However, Barret is wearing his ring on the left! Score #2 for Clarret! XD

10. "Cloud rescues Tifa in the church and a romantic scene ensues of them lying in flowers!"

Are you saying that Cloud wouldn't rush to rescue Barret or Yuffie??? Are you also saying that Cloud holding an injured Kadaj toward the end was romantic??? Cloud rushing to aid an injured friend is something that Cloud just does-- it is part of his nature. And the fact that Cloud also holds Kadaj when he is injured completely negates any idea that Cloud holding a fallen Tifa holds any romantic connotations.

Next, let us look at the scene of Cloud and Tifa lying in the flowers, which some CloTis claim is romantic. I am going to prove that this scene is merely pretty CloTi fodder with absolutely no CloTi substance behind it. It is totally shallow, merely there to titillate the CloTi fandom with an attractive image for them to rip for the sigs and avvies. But, is there anything remotely CloTi about this scene? Nope, not a thing... and here's why:

a. Location, location, location. The scene itself takes place among flowers planted and tended to by Aerith before her death-- flowers that have become a sort of symbol for Aerith herself. Not only that, but this scene takes place in Aerith's church, the place where she and Cloud first met. Add in the fact that "Water", music that only plays when Aerith's presence is near, and the fact that Cloud and Tifa are surrounded by a white light that only appears when Aerith is on screen and the idea starts to become more concrete. Throw in the wolf, the symbol of Cloud's guilt, standing right next to him and the truth reveals itself-- the scene is actually all about Aerith. Cloud and Tifa lying unconscious in Aerith's flowers, in Aerith's church, while Aerith's music plays, surrounded by Aerith's light, and accompanied by the symbol of Cloud's guilt for Aerith's death... and you came up with the idea of a CloTi romance how??? 0_o

Just to hammer this home, I have proof from Reunion Files:

"There's some foreshadowing that the church is where Aerith is going to appear," says Nojima. "There's a point in the plot where Cloud and Tifa are lying unconscious on the flowers here and their wounds are healed. Also, Aerith has a sort of 'watery' image about her, so we used water to convey her presence."

So, yeah, you CloTis can go on all you want about CloTi this and yin-yang symbolism that, but you know what? The creators say otherwise. The creators stated that the scene was about Aerith healing Cloud and Tifa and foreshadowed her later appearance in the church. So, please do us all a favor and stop making up shit.

b. Total hypocrisy. Cloud lying unconscious from a terminal illness in flowers next to Tifa, who has been beaten to the point of unconsciousness is "romantic", according to the CloTi side of the fandom. And yet (according to the CloTis) Cloud standing next to Aerith in a flower field, where he speaks of his deepest emotional issues and tries to see her face is not. Also, apparently, according to the CloTi fandom, Cloud riding out through a field of flowers to meet up with Aerith and keeping loads of pictures of this flower field, not to mention picking flowers from said flower field means nothing. And, yeah, you get the picture.... What BS.

So, where is the CloTi evidence from this scene??? As I have proven already, the scene was about Aerith, not some cliche CloTi idea of romance. So, S-E gave the CloTi fandom their pretty, shallow scene so they can use it for wallpapers and such without any true substance behind it.

11. "Cloud smiles just at Tifa at the end!"

Riiight... *Sighs* Allow me to, once again, as sad as this may be, point out the obvious:

a. Cloud's expression doesn't change one bit. Tifa smiled at Cloud and that expression received focus from the creators because she was giving Cloud a beautiful "I knew you could do it!" smile. But did Cloud's expression back to Tifa receive any special focus? No. Cloud is smiling at all of his friends, Tifa's smile is shown, the camera pans back to Cloud who still has the exact same expression on his face, and Cloud immediately turns away to smile at the children. And he was smiling just at Tifa when? When, exactly, did Cloud's expression to Tifa receive some sort of special focus? Oh, that's right-- it didn't.

b. Cloud's smile at Aerith is much, much longer and receives special focus. Yep, that's right. While Cloud's expression didn't change a bit when Tifa smiled at him, Cloud's expression changed into his most wondrous yet the moment Aerith appeared on screen. Tifa completely faded into the background the moment Cloud spotted Aerith and his attention was focused totally on her.

Actually, to be blunt, Cloud's expressions in AC are focused upon a great deal when Aerith is around and his face shows much more expression and life when Aerith is near than anyone else. In RF it was stated that Cloud's facial expression received extra attention because Cloud speaks with his eyes instead of his mouth. Just take a look at all of the attention Cloud's face receives when Aerith is near-- his expressions are documented closely when in the flower field, when thinking of her, when seeing her in the Bahamut battle, and at the end, when Cloud's expression broke out into the most beautiful smile yet was when he was looking at Aerith.

Tifa, on the other hand, has two moments in AC where she gives Cloud a meaningful look. The one I mentioned already above, which showed no reciprocation from Cloud and the one where Tifa stares determinedly at Cloud before tossing him into the air in the Bahamut battle. Amusingly enough, Cloud's expression was not even shown after Tifa gives him this meaningful look, which tells me that the creators did not consider it to be that important.

Honestly, take a look at Cloud's body language in the movie. He spends half of his time with Tifa with his back turned to her. Either that or he isn't looking at her at all. Compare this with Cloud straining to turn and see Aerith, looking her in the eyes in the Bahamut battle, reaching out for her, taking her hand, watching her every move at the end... After his initial meeting with her in the flower field and his first attempt to see her, Cloud spends the rest of the movie looking directly into Aerith's eyes, facing her, reaching for her. How much more obvious does it have to get?

From RF:

"When Cloud regained consciousness, he found himself in the Church. He saw the familiar faces of his friends and the orphans watching over him, and a smile slowly spread across his face. Aerith and Zack stand beyond the door, watching over them. At last, Cloud is no longer alone."

"...Then Cloud finally fights with Sephiroth, the kids gather around him by the water, he smiles, and Aerith smiles and watches them from a distance..." (Nomura)

What, no mention of Cloud's "special smile just for Tifa"? XD

12. "But the script says...!"

If someone starts spouting stuff at you from the script, just ignore them and politely inform them that the script included in the FFVII:AC Collector's Edition is an earlier draft, not the finished product. There are loads of things in this script that were changed up in the final product or were completely omitted. A couple of examples:

"Cloud's left arm glows with a pale light as the geostigma begins to heal. While Cloud watches this happen, Kadaj destroys the wall near the rafters and escapes. Cloud ignores this and gazes at Aerith's flower bed. He sees Aerith's figure through the misty spray."

The two items I bolded are events that were omitted and/or changed in the final product. In AC, Kadaj doesn't destroy anything to escape, he just rides off. And Cloud never saw Aerith in the misty spray of her holy rain, he just gazed out at Aerith's flooded flower bed with an expression of peace. The latter was probably removed due to the intent of the creators to save Aerith's face until the end of the movie.

"In the midst of battle, Cloud glances earthward and sees Midgar. White Lifestream weaves betwixt the black Lifestream, and the former is cleansed by the latter. Cloud smiles."

This entire sequence was removed from the final version of AC. Obviously, there is an error here, as the white Lifestream would be the one to cleanse the black Lifestream, not vice versa. But, I am guessing this sequence was removed because the creators wanted to save Cloud's rare smile for the end to show him smiling at the children and Aerith.

These two examples only scratch the surface. There are tons of other sequences and events in the script included with the Collector's Edition that were omitted and/or changed. So, how can you rely on this script at all? With so many changes to what was obviously an earlier draft of the film, there is no way to tell if something is correct or not. This script is interesting, but that is it. It should not be used as proof for either side as it is ridiculously unreliable. Too bad, really, because there were some lovely ClAeris-y bits in there....

FYI: When AC was released, there was a lot of wailing, bitching, and moaning in the CloTi camp. So powerful is the overwhelming ClAeris evidence in AC that even some of the most rabid CloTis converted and are now avid ClAeris fans. Still others, who once hated ClAeris, and even Aerith, are getting in touch with their "ClAeris side", admitting to liking ClAeris fan art and acknowledging that they don't really hate ClAeris so much after all.

Still other CloTi fans started screaming "FANSERVICE!!!" about the direct sequel of FFVII, when just prior to the movie's release they were talking about how AC would "prove CloTi canon" and how much they were looking forward to seeing "the truth about Cloud and Tifa's relationship". Well, you have the truth about Cloud and Tifa-- they are friends who are like family, just like the rest of AVALANCHE, and nothing more. So, now that your couple wasn't proven canon and you were all proven wrong the movie is suddenly nothing but fan service??? What hypocrites! +

Still other CloTis are in complete denial about the fact that Cloud clearly doesn't love Tifa romantically and have resorted to making up their own evidence. There are several CloTis who are quite talented when it comes to making up evidence that doesn't exist, twisting facts to suit their own purposes, and putting words into the mouths of the creators which were never intended. Many of the CloTis who had their pride wounded flock to these fact-twisting rejects simply because they refuse to see the truth of the matter. But, as I have spelled it out-- CloTi is nothing but fanon. The subtle clues all point to Cloud loving Aerith and continuing to keep her alive in his heart. There is absolutely no proof that Cloud loves Tifa in anything more than a platonic way.

So there you have it, the definative Anti-Cloti post. This post answers any of the Cloti evidence already posted in this thread and more of the more common Cloti proof. Which is why im happy with my position as a Clerith - because everything can be disprooved - both Clerith proof and Cloti proof. none is canon, none is shown properly without some way to destroy it and thats how it shall forever remain.

 

[eisprinz]

Here's one thing bugging me. People using the evidence that "twoo wuv can still be felt beyond death!!!OMG11!!!".

Just stop.

People die. And their loved ones move on. When a wife dies, there's a likelihood that a husband will never marry again. But there's also a chance that he will marry again and that his new wife will not just be a replacement, a pale shadow of the first, but will be a new person loved for their own qualities.

There are romantics out there who will cite the concept of a "one true love." I'll admit, I kinda believe that there are two people meant to end up together.

But that doesn't mean that a person will only fall in love once.

That doesn't mean that a person will only fall in love with one person at a time.

And when a man meets a new woman after the death of a wife, it doesn't mean that he has stopped loving his first wife. It just means that he is moving on.

Thinking realistically about couples and what happens to them in death makes more sense to me than discussing whether a twitch from a polygon or a line of badly translated dialogue was meant to suggest "twoo wuv" or "platonic affection" (which is something everyone has done, let's admit it).

So let's say that Cloud loved Aeris and still does. That doesn't mean that he can't love Tifa as well, because she is a different person and he will love her in a different way

 

[Grimoire Valentine]

Great post Aerith, but the one thing you didn't mention is that Cloud is fundementally an arse.

When he had geostygma, he returned to his old, "Im hard and cold mode".

When I feel down I go to the places where I have memories of my ex. Why do I do it? Indulgent self-pity, thats what Cloud does very well indeed.

I refere you to eisprinz's earlier comments of a first love/wife analogy. It just makes sense, with all the argueing in the world, IT MAKES SENSE!

 

[xnotjustadreamx]

Lol it doesn't matter how much you defend Clerith, and finding miniscule snippets that you could use to kid yourself that he loved her, it's not like her death happened recently, it happened in disk 1 and she was there to provide a way to stop Meteor etc, if the big story of the game was their romance she wouldn't have been killed off. She was just there to show yet another loss in Cloud's life, ironically someone who was linked with his other loss of a best friend - Zack.
Even in the manual it says Aerith wanted to get involved in the "deepening love triangle" just like a typical girl who likes to know shes the prettiest, she hardly LOVED Cloud, they spent barely any time together! But you can see from the way Tifa talks about him, follows him, acts with him she is IN love. I believe if it was a comparison, Tifa would be love at first sight, Aerith, lust at first sight. Whats the point going on and on about Aerith when they've made sequels like DOC and shes clearly not in them!! I.e they're over her!! Aerith hardly helped Vincent fight Chaos did she? So why are people SOSOSO defensive lol...