Whose responsibility is it?

Will Graham

Will Graham

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This story has been all over the national news lately,

http://www.thejournal.ie/barmen-acc...e-untrained-on-alcohol-danger-132859-May2011/

Basically two barmen served a man enough alcohol that he eventually died of alcohol poisoning. Recently they were brought to court on charges of manslaughter(though they were acquitted within the last day or two).

So my question is, who's responsible? The barmen for not being able to tell(perhaps not caring) how drunk the man was and giving him the drink, the man for purchasing and consuming the drink of his own free will, or a mixture of both? This is also a general debate topic on whether or not it should be up to the individual or bar staff on the regulation of a patron's alcohol, or whether or not it can even be regulated.

It should also be pointed out that drinking culture varies massively from country to country, for example doing sets of four shots with maybe half an hour in between two sets wouldn't be that uncommon.
 
it'd be ideal to say oh dont serve someone thats so drunk they cant walk - but this never happens, every night out you see people like this and they always get served. You cant really blame the bar staff for that, if its really busy youre not about to start checking over each and every person at the bar.

we're alkl grown ups and unless we are having our drinks tampered with we're responsible for our own drinking, ive drunk to excess my self - most of us have, i tend to hit apoint where i literally can no face another beer and have to have a few waters and see if i can face another drink, if not, its generallly home to bed for me. I wont blame bar staff for anything ive done thats stupid whilst pissed.
 
Initially I may want to argue that as well as individual responsibility, the barmen should be mindful of how intoxicated their customers are and perhaps briefly object to serving but come to think of it there isn't really much a barman can really do. I don't know the full context of the happenings - whether they tried at all to object in anyway - but on this occasion the vast brunt of the responsibility lies on the individual. It's a tragic case certainly and it's sad to hear this, but the gentleman was old enough to monitor his own intake of alcohol and not the staff. Ultimately you can't rely on the staff to watch out for your wellbeing when undoubtedly they have numerous other customers to serve and the till to handle. I don't believe the barmen should be made guilty of manslaughter, but perhaps it was irresponsible putting all the drinks into one glass.
 
I was listening to an interview when I was eating my breakfast this morning and another interesting point was made. Many people now engage in pre-drinks(i.e. drinking even to the point of drunkenness at home, as it's cheaper than only drinking when out), making it even more difficult for a barman to discern whether or not the person has had too much. To counter that however some one else made the point that it was illegal to serve more than a triple(they served an octuple), though I'm still looking for confirmation of this from an official source.
 
Unfortunately with these things it is always the same, both are to blame.
Firstly it's the guy's fault for drinking himself to death, he would be a candidate for the Darwin Awards if such things didn't happen so frequently.
It's also the fault of the people who served him, I'm not sure about in England, but I assume this is a law that most countries have, you cannot serve people who are clearly intoxicated.
It's also the fault of the people who own the bar thing. Employers are supposed to provide adequate training, and they didn't so the guy died.
 
I'm not sure there's actually a law over here saying you can't serve drunk people, is there?
I mean, I know bars over here will throw people out if they've had too much to drink, or refuse to serve them, but it's generally only if they're causing trouble.
I don't think it's the fault of the barmen really, if the guy drunk so much he died its his fault. It'd be like blaming a pharmacist for selling pills to a guy who overdosed and died, accidentally or otherwise. The guy should have known when to stop.
Like someone else said, it's hard to tell how much someone's drunk. If they're behaving themselves then the barmen don't have any reason to not serve someone and you can't always keep tabs on how much someone's drunk, especially if they've been to other bars beforehand or had a few drinks at home.
 
I want to go to this bar..

My opinion is that it's a free country, and if wasn't causing a problem then it should be fine.
But on the contrary, it does do good to help those who can't seem to help themselves. They should have cut him off.

This would never happen to me because after ten shots I start saying whatever I want, whenever I want, wherever I want, however I want, to whoever I want.
And I eventually get cutoff :D

Anyway, they should lose their bartender status, not get manslaughter charges.
 
i thought it was illegal to serve more than a double in one go thinking about it. And im pretty sure its illegal to be drunk in public, which could be a bugger getting to and from bars/home...:wacky: AND also that its illegal to serve a drunk person?

Im not entirely sure where i heard this though... just goes to show how vague the laws on drinking are I guess. the only thing i know for certain is its illegal to drink in the streets like

At most, they should have been reprimanded for serving more than was allowed, but without adequate training, what can you do? The laws and shit concerning drinking are shaky at best..

Oh, theres some shots that youre not allowed to get more than like one or 2 of, how are the staff supposed to regulate that one if someone else serves or some one else goes up for the shots?

Ultimately, I really dont think there is a lot the bar staff can do. Why wasnt this blokes friends questioned? Was he drinking there alone? Me and my friends all look out for each other when we are drinking. Im not sure Gina would even let me drink that mixer Id be floored just off that.
 
Both.

The bar tender should know when someone has had too much. This may also be defended by it being a busy night and the bar keep not being able to pay enough attention to the single person.

The individual who drank until he got poisoning is also at fault. I'm aware when your drunk you don't think as properly, but at some point, you have to know when to say "I'm good"

There are many factors as to why this played out how it did, and I honestly didn't read the article.
 
I think it's technically more the fault of the customer, tbh, because if you are sober and start drinking, you know that there's a risk of you doing something stupid if you get so drunk that you aren't aware of yourself anymore. And because different people can hold different amounts of liquor based on the individual, the bartender can't really be expected to know how much is too much for every single person. However if the person is exhibiting signs of being sickly drunk, then if I were the bartender I would still feel a bit morally obligated to cut them off, because when you are that far gone you don't know what you're doing. Ultimately I don't know all the laws on cutting people off, but I certainly don't think the bartender is solely to blame in this.
 
is it only me wondering where his friends were in this situation then? :wacky:

it wouldnt suprise me if they did the most to-ing and fro-ing from the bar
 
well, this is interesting, the fact that it happened is sad, but then again, it's a difficult situation to place blame on either.

Yes, the Barmen could have Said no to serving him due to his alcohol consumption, but then again the man himself could have said "well, that's enough for me" as many of us have done in the past. when you think about it though, if the barmen at the club the man was drinking at had refused to serve him, surely the man would have just gone to another bar and continued drinking.

whenever i go out drinking, i always have a point of myself saying "no more for me" and then i head home (normally past a kebab shop on the way) to get to bed and sleep it off. Granted there has been the occasional time when i have been staying at a friends foor a house party and got so drunk i have passed out, but that is a rare thing for me as im not a big Drinker.

but IMO both man and barman are to blame for different reasons, and manslaughter charges are a little unfair if you think about it, after all they were just doing their job
 
I would say my answer really comes down to whether or not the customer was blatantly acting drunk and the barmen still served him, or whether the customer didn't show any realy signs or purpously tried to "play sober" in order to be served.

I have witnessed countless people falling over themselves in bars/clubs who seem out of their mind yet when it comes to the challenge of appearing sober to the bar staff with the intention of getting more booze they are suddenly the worlds best actor.
 
This is absolutely ridiculous.

The man ingested all that alcohol himself...so its his fault that he died. Its not like the bartender sat there like they do at frat parties with the funnel and the tube shooting all that alcohol down his throat and said "chug! chug! chug!"

The man was there to run a business, not a day care and babysit his patrons. I don't believe that its a bartender's responsiblity to monitor their patrons and know when they are too drunk to be served another drink. If thats the case then they should be given breathalizers that way they can know when people are "too drunk" to be served another drink...because how can you tell by just looking at someone? :hmmm: ...Or should they be writing down how many drinks each person has and put the limit at 3 drinks.... Realistically we are getting into the responsibilites of a policeman ...and since when would a bartender ever qualify for one of those?

Everyone wants to blame someone else it seems for their own actions today...its ludicrous.
 
It's part of a bartender's responsibilities to know whether or not the customer can safely take another drink, just like how it's a bartender's duty to make sure his customers have a designated driver or a taxi available when they need get home. Never been to England, so I don't know if maybe they have a difference in protocol, but as a bartender-in-training, I know the code of conduct myself, and from what I've read, the bartenders who were working that night are most certainly responsible for that man's fate.

Charging them for manslaughter seems pretty heavy, because they make it seem as if they were intentionally trying to kill him, but still, disciplinary measures need to be taken in this case.

I also want to shift a bit of responsibility to the manager for this reason:
On the third day of the trial at Nenagh Circuit Criminal Court, the hotel manager Gerry McGovern confirmed that neither of the accused men had received any training on the potentially dangerous dosages of alcohol they gave to customers, the Irish Independent reports.
McGovern, who has been the hotel manager for 22 years, confirmed that no disciplinary action was taken against the barmen following Mr Parish’s death.
Click to expand...
I do hope the manager was ignorant of this before he hired them, because when dealing in the selling of alcoholis beverages, a mistake like this is a massive flop. Of course he would'nt punish them because it's his own fault 2 unqualified barkeeps were working shifts there to begin with!



Hopefully this will make more sense as the case develops, but as it stands, I'm going to say the Bartenders are at fault.
 
I agree with Hal, both are to blame. First of all it should be common sense to not order so much to drink that it would kill you unless that was the initial goal. A person should be able to control themselves or they should not be drinking at all in the first place. Honestly I believe most of the blame should fall upon that man.

Secondly ANY good human being REGARDLESS if its your job to serve booze or not, should know when to stop the person drinking. First off I dont want anyone to say "its none of their business." Its a humanity issue. You do not let a person drink themselves to death regardless if its their job to serve drinks or not. And being bartenders they should have a pretty good idea when enough is enough.

The man was obviously too wasted to even know he had drank too much....does anyone else know he had? Only the bartenders COULD have saved him, they were the only ones whom knew how much the man had drank.

Its the fault of both sides, allthough manslaughter might be a little harsh in this situation but I still think they should have some heavy fines or something. At least they learned a lesson....and the man who died definately learned a lesson
 
I dunno what the laws are in other places but legally, when I worked in the UK and in Canada, I wasn't allowed to serve already drunk people. After a certain amount of drinks within a certain time limit, as well as visible drunkenness, I was told not to serve them. Legally, I could get blamed and charged for something if something happened to them.

In Canada, it would be the Bartenders fault. We have to take a small course, Serving it Right that gives bartenders legal obligations, regarding what is and isn't our fault. Serving him THAT much that he was visibly drunk (let alone DIED), would be clearly the Bartenders fault. After a point, we have to stop. It ties in hugely to what happens to them. There's a obligation in the course that for up to 24 hours of leaving the bar, Bartenders can be held accountable for the actions of the Drunk depending on what happens to them. If they get into a car with other drunk friends at the bar, bartenders are held accountable. We have to see that they get home safely from the establishment where we served them.
 

It's a sad event that he died because of alcohol poisoning but frankly speaking, it is mainly his fault for drinking too much. He should have known when to say "I had enough." But you know, it makes me wonder if there were circumstances that made him unable to stop drinking too much, and what those circumstances are. The article was too short and didn't really cover all the facts. There might be some hidden stories/facts that were left unsaid which might lead us to something else. It is possible.

The barmen who served his drink takes part of the blame, but so does his friends. (Well, I figured his friends were present because I hardly believe that he was celebrating his birthday alone). If they really care, even just a little bit, they should have stopped him. We all know when a person looks drunk.
The barmen shouldn't have given him anymore drink. If you don't give the drink, then the customer can't do anything about it. He'll probably gets angry, say a few harsh and cruel words, but eventually, will just leave. It's better to receive some contempt than to be partly responsible for death. They are to be blame, yes, but I think manslaughter is too much... That is if they really have no motive to kill the customer in the first place. (Well, that is also a possibility. The article stated that the barmen's job description where nowhere to be found). <- This makes me suspicious of the manager too. =/

His friends are to be blame, all the same. Why didn't they stop him? I thought friends look after each other, I guess in this case, it's different. What friends they are...

Hmm...I might be thinking too much, but it is a possibility we can't shut off. I just hope everything will clear out. I hope that the truth will be revealed, the responsible will get what they deserved and justice be done.
 
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I think it is the man's fault for drinking even more when he was already drunk. It is crazy that he wanted more although it is something we do not see often.. it is a sad story. He can not expect the staff to say "Sorry we will not serve you anymore". Basically the man is kind of the idiot here. Yes he was drunk but he just asked for more and more and the bartenders didn't seem to care. It is his own fault for dying. The barmen can be at fault as well because they served him too much but.. nobody is going to know. Maybe they just wanted money here. That can be a key concept. The bartenders can not really object to serving since they really can not tell if the man had enough or not. Serving too much drinks is dangerous.. as this man just died. This is a terrible story and it is very tear inducing. Not many people die of alochol consumption these days. I agree that nobody can not rely on the staff to check things out. Bartenders will just serve and serve. If the customer takes it and keeps on taking it then that is bad. This may differ in different countries, but I still think the bartenders were just doing their job here, and ultimately the man is at fault in my opinion. Although I do agree that it is a mixed opinion for me really. As you can not rely on the bartender to tell when someone had enough..
 
It's the barkeeper's fault for the most part. Alcohol is a substance people might find hard to control the intake for, and the barkeeper is specifically designated among other things, to serve people deadly amounts of alcohol.

Certainly the dead guy is to blame aswell, but it's part of the barkeeper's job to see to it that he doesn't serve deadly amounts of alcohol. He's required by law to do that.

At least the dead guy has an excuse, he drank to the point where he couldn't make rational decisions. That's a point where the barkeeper shouldn't have served him alcohol to get there. It is a bit much to ask for when it comes to barkeeping, though.
 
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