Why all the hate?

[Thule Esperada]

Wow, there is alot of hate threads here. I thought that game specific threads were supposed to be for fans of the title to gather and share their enthusiasm for it. Yet almost all threads are like: "I hated this game", FFXII ruined Final Fantasy" or "this game is crap". Way to abuse the the forums I guess...

 

[Bambi]

i think you are going to get that wherever you go with a franchise so vast as final fantasy, especially as the games all feature new stories, characters and battle systems, which always seems to be a bug bear, some people just dont like change

I find these threads can often get a better discussion than those saying why they actually like a game sometimes though. you do get the clowns that ruin it lol

 

[Six]

I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression of our forum due to the strong opinions towards Final Fantasy XII. I'm a pro-FFXII-er myself, I enjoyed the game and characters.

It should be said that we have a large member base, so there will be a wide variety of opinions, not always to everyone's likings. What we strive for is keeping it what they are: opinions. People usually don't flame other opinions, and if that happens Staff is usually there to step in.

Don't let a few opinions ruin your experience. There's plenty of us that like the game.

 

[Shaissa]

To answer your questio, here are some of the biggest reasons I here for the hate on FFXII.

1. Character development- people claim the characters in FFXII are "bland" or are undeveloped and never grow in the game (except for maybe Ashe and Balthier). I think all the characters are great and develop nicely.... Except Vaan... Wish someone else was the lead and he was erased...

2. Gambit System- people feel like this system makes the game play it for you, and in a way, they are right. But I feel that this is just one option that you can use. You still can do everything manually if you want.

3. Story- some people just don't like the story of FFXII for some reason. they feel it's underdeveloped or not as good as previous Final Fantasy's. I think it's a Final Fantasy based more on the governments and politics in the world vs on the characters, which kinda goes back to the first point here, this Final Fantasy had things happen outside the main party Ashe, Balthier and the rest) control and they react to it. Where in the past Final Fantasy games it felt more like your party did something then an event happened.
Now I personally think, story wise, FFXII is probably one of the best Final Fantasy games in that department.

Now you can see I like FFXII, but I do understand peoples hate on it. But if you go through the other areas you will see hate on all FF games in some manner. The forum doesn't discourage people to post why they feel an FF game is bad, in fact, I feel the better discussions are on those type of threads (although they sometimes get outta hand ).

But please if you feel strongly on a FF game and wanna voice your opinion, do so!

 

[AuronX]

Vocal minority, I guess? Maybe majority, I dunno, but it seems like FFXII is one of those games that gets a bad rap and yet when you actually talk about it to people they all enjoyed it. I know I did. To me it represented everything great about the classics, repackaged in a more modern form. Granted the story was a bit thinner than most FF games but it had a great cast to make up for it and pretty much the best FF battle system to date. So yeah, I obviously don't hate it!

 

[Razberry Knight]

Not many people have discussed their hatred for FF12 recently....maybe because SE has unlocked a whole new batch of bad games....i'm looking at you FF13 series, and all you smartphone games (except for FF dimensions)

 

[Linnaete]

In a way, it is a good thing that forums aren't echo chambers with everyone all having more or less the same opinion on anything. Would that not be boring? Would it not be more interesting and conducive for genuine discussion when you have people with differing opinions discuss a particular game?

As mentioned already, Final Fantasy is full of games that are vastly different from one another, so it inevitably creates fandoms within a fandom, as you will.

As for FFXII, I think it's one of the better games in the series. I know there are plenty of people here who would disagree, which is perfectly fine. I'll engage in discussion with them and put forward my reasons as to why I think FFXII is good and why they're wrong. Ultimately of course, the detractors are wrong. Objectively. I've spoken to God, and He seems to agree with me (Disclaimer: this last bit is a joke, in case anyone takes it seriously).

 

[Razberry Knight]

Personally i believe FF didn't change so much.....for the most part FF12 just had you control a little less, but you still had "FULL" control...you still found ways to make it work.

It was different, but i believe it wasn't a sudden shift....it was natural evolution. especially when you compare it to FFX.

i love the entire cast....and it bothers me GREATLY how much Vaan gets so much flak when there's another character who is even more useless and pointless than Vaan could ever be (Penelo). The cast to me has always felt like a group of misfits coupled by heavily relevant characters such as Ashe and Balthier.

 

[anarkzie]

I was very surprised when I beat this game and read all the hate this game got, to me it was another 7, that's how good it was for me.

 

[Vivi-Gamer]

The problem for me was that it simply did not feel like a Final Fantasy game. I think this is mostly due to the games tone and how it focused on telling a story of politics over a character driven story like most FF games. The characters in XII took a back seat which lead most characters to be under developed and bland. Vaan and Penelo had not personal motive or reason to be in the game at all. The only character with a hint of personality was Balthier, not only that but his back story as a Judge and personal conflict with Cid was very interesting. None of the other characters really had that personal conflict. I felt the same way with XIII-1, Barthanderlus as a Villain was just uninteresting, there was no personal tension between him and the party, while in XIII-2 you had Caius which brought that much needed tension to the XIII series and was easily the best thing about XIII-2.

However, it wasn't just the lack of interesting characters, the story in XII was just lacking in general. In previous Final Fantasy games when you arrive at a new location, something usually happens. Like in VII, your buggy breaks down and you have to call into Cosmo Canyon, then when you arrive there something happens and you get involved with Red XIII's story. Nothing like that happens in XII. The only moments within the game that really get the adrenaline running are the confrontations with the judges. Or that bit where you're taken Prisoner aboard the airship. Beyond that, all I remember from XII is landscape after landscape without any sense of progression within the story. It got so agonizing at times I remember just rushing through environments pleading the next area to give me something interesting. The game got interesting near the end, when you reach The Bahumat, you have cutscenes and the story suddenly flows into motion, but its not worth the 70 hours of absence behind it.

Also, I was never fond of the combat system. What really infuriated me about it was that in prior FF games, you wait first for your ATB bar to rise and then select your command, which is the set into motion soon after. But with XII, you select you command THEN you wait, the reversal makes the combat feel so much more tedious. Not only that, but I found myself just using Attack along with Buffs through out the whole game. Balthier constantly shooting things to s*** for 80 hours didn't make for a real diverse combat system - Yes that could be down to my fault, but I felt no need to explore with magic and if anything in XII weapons and magic upgrades is just the biggest chore. The License Board just pinned restrictions on you, if I buy a weapon I want to use it, but not only that, the board would be withheld so you couldnt even plan there direction you wanted to go across it. It was just tedious to me and constantly was a barrier stopping me from enjoying upgrading and what not.

But overall the game just lacked spirit, magic and the sense of wonder and adventure I love from the JRPG genre. I found it very disheartening to play through and to this day regard it as one of the biggest disappointments that I have ever experienced within gaming.

 

[Razberry Knight]

The problem for me was that it simply did not feel like a Final Fantasy game.

Depends on what you define a Final Fantasy game...you'd be surprise that not everything you believe what makes final fantasy is unique to it and/or what is highlighted in EVERY final fantasy.

I think this is mostly due to the games tone and how it focused on telling a story of politics over a character driven story like most FF games.

Granted that is true...But compalred to other JRPGs that focus on politics extensively, it makes this game unique and that FF charm.

The characters in XII took a back seat which lead most characters to be under developed and bland. Vaan and Penelo had not personal motive or reason to be in the game at all. The only character with a hint of personality was Balthier, not only that but his back story as a Judge and personal conflict with Cid was very interesting.

Vaan's personal motive was "adventure". He didn't need to be in it, but he wanted to, and he had a reason whether it was good or not. Penelo on the other hand was just there because Vaan was there. And that's not a bad reason, but she definitely need more as her role never got any better. For example: Vaan still had those visions of his brother with Ashe who saw her late husband. Characters definitely had personality, what was lacking was some form of backstory. Ashe and Balthier had backstories, but Balthier despite admitting he was once a judge, could've seen more on that. Ashe we saw plenty and i firmly believe she's a strong and good character. Fran i believe is a good character too despite how annoying her accent gets to me. But when we got to know more about her, i believed an additional scene of when she met Balthier would be good (and if it was linked to him being a judge). Vaan had development....in the very beginning he was linked to the main plot by his late brother.

None of the other characters really had that personal conflict. I felt the same way with XIII-1, Barthanderlus as a Villain was just uninteresting, there was no personal tension between him and the party, while in XIII-2 you had Caius which brought that much needed tension to the XIII series and was easily the best thing about XIII-2.

Ashe, Balthier, Vaan, and Gabranth all had personal conflict. Balthier just knew how to hide it, Ashe showed it very loudly, and Vaan didn't have much, but when he did they were key moments. Fraan and Penelo just weren't that strong. Penelo i wish never existed but Fraan i just wish we had more. Ironically Fraan and Penelo were the only two characters that interacted extensively.

However, it wasn't just the lack of interesting characters, the story in XII was just lacking in general. In previous Final Fantasy games when you arrive at a new location, something usually happens. Like in VII, your buggy breaks down and you have to call into Cosmo Canyon, then when you arrive there something happens and you get involved with Red XIII's story. Nothing like that happens in XII. The only moments within the game that really get the adrenaline running are the confrontations with the judges. Or that bit where you're taken Prisoner aboard the airship. Beyond that, all I remember from XII is landscape after landscape without any sense of progression within the story. It got so agonizing at times I remember just rushing through environments pleading the next area to give me something interesting. The game got interesting near the end, when you reach The Bahumat, you have cutscenes and the story suddenly flows into motion, but its not worth the 70 hours of absence behind it.

On this one, its not completely true for all FF. Yes we could've seen more action within each one. but then again, we had a large ammount of areas to go to...i personally don't mind it too much, because each place was still wonderous to me.

Also, I was never fond of the combat system. What really infuriated me about it was that in prior FF games, you wait first for your ATB bar to rise and then select your command, which is the set into motion soon after. But with XII, you select you command THEN you wait, the reversal makes the combat feel so much more tedious. Not only that, but I found myself just using Attack along with Buffs through out the whole game. Balthier constantly shooting things to s*** for 80 hours didn't make for a real diverse combat system - Yes that could be down to my fault, but I felt no need to explore with magic and if anything in XII weapons and magic upgrades is just the biggest chore. The License Board just pinned restrictions on you, if I buy a weapon I want to use it, but not only that, the board would be withheld so you couldnt even plan there direction you wanted to go across it. It was just tedious to me and constantly was a barrier stopping me from enjoying upgrading and what not.

Ironically that is exactly what XIII issue was. You picked the command, then wait for the ATB to go down. but with gambit system, it evened it out.

But overall the game just lacked spirit, magic and the sense of wonder and adventure I love from the JRPG genre. I found it very disheartening to play through and to this day regard it as one of the biggest disappointments that I have ever experienced within gaming.

this one is dependent on what you expected out of XII, i personally saw a lot that XII had to offer when it came to the world.

 

[Ilyena]

When I first joined this forum, XII was the newest game out so there was a lot of discussion about it and for the most part it was pretty polarizing. It seemed like people either really enjoyed it or hated it without much middle ground.

Like others have said, I think a lot of that is due to the more world-driven story as opposed to character-driven story. Personally, I thought some of the characters could have used more development and I found a lot of the character interaction to be lacking. While I didn't dislike Vaan, I didn't really like him either. He was kind of just there. I feel like if a character is considered the main character, you shouldn't feel like the story and outcome would be the same even if he wasn't there. And I agree with Razberry that Penelo was even more pointless. I didn't dislike the main cast, I just would have liked more interaction and development. I did think the villains were well done.

I didn't mind the politically driven story and it was one of the reasons I thought Vayne worked well as a villain. He was a scheming politician. He didn't really have to have a lot of interaction with the party to be effective. He machinations were still causing a roadblock in what the party was after, the restoration of Dalmasca.

As for the battle system, I actually liked it. I liked being able to set gambits and not have to control every character's actions. I didn't mind the system in old games either but I thought this one worked as well. And while sometimes traveling to different places could be a pain (especially that trek to Archadia), over all I enjoyed the visual landscapes and places.

tl;dr I really enjoyed the game though it has its flaws (no game is perfect). That said, everyone has different tastes so I can see how it wouldn't appeal to everyone.

 

[LinnyCockle]

1) Almost no character development except a bit with Ashe and Balthier.

2) Vaan and Penelo have almost no influence in the story whatsoever. Just replace then with Nintendo Miis and the game would be the same.

3) No love story.

4) No gameplay variety. Final Fantasies were always good at breaking things up with mini games. There's almost nothing in this. All of the side-quests just involve more fighting.

5) The summons are beyond dreadful. Can't remember what a single one of them looked like.

 

[Celes Chere]

I loved FFXII so I'm not sure WHY for all of the hate. I feel like the characters are very well rounded and I fell in love with this party of characters almost as strongly as any other FF game. They each had their own dreams and reasons for being on the journey that they all saw through together until the end. I really adore the atmosphere of this game , and I don't get why people say it "doesn't feel like" a Final Fantasy. It had vast worlds , monsters and bosses through out the land , and my favorite: THE HUNTS. The hunts were so much fun!

I think people say it's not like Final Fantasy because the airships somehow look more futuristic than what we're used to. But I personally loved all of the designs.

 

[Razberry Knight]

1) Almost no character development except a bit with Ashe and Balthier.

i believe Vaan got as much character development. I dont know why people underplay Ashe's character development. Balthier on the other hand, he just revealed he was once a judged, and suddenly it made a big change (but nto to me, i wish he showed more about it)

2) Vaan and Penelo have almost no influence in the story whatsoever. Just replace then with Nintendo Miis and the game would be the same.

Vaan, once again, i felt he had his own personal reasons to being in the story. i dont think he needed to influence the story. HOWEVER, even if i felt he didn't need it, he did play a part. He did have a connection with Ashe and that connection was that helped Ashe make a decision. replacing them with "Miis" just doesn't make much sense to me.

Penelo on the other hand? i felt she had literally no purpose....she served absolutely NOTHING. and i'm not even exagerrating. Penelo, was around just because of Vaan, Vaan was around for the sake of adventure and he got more out of it personally than Penelo. so i agree with Penelo, not Vaan.

3) No love story.

sounds like a personal problem. not a genuine flaw in the game.

4) No gameplay variety. Final Fantasies were always good at breaking things up with mini games. There's almost nothing in this. All of the side-quests just involve more fighting.

I admit, this is something that FF12 could've used. even though it did have mini games, it just could've used one more to make it more varied. but considering how big FF12 was, i can forgive it a little more.

5) The summons are beyond dreadful. Can't remember what a single one of them looked like.

i can't argue about them being memorable, but how do you get "dreadful"? dreadful implies it left an impact (a negative one). But being forgetable implies no impact at all.

 

[SquallKefka17]

For me FF XII was a game I just never retried playing through a second time thats usually a measure for me how much I like an FF game I tried to defeat Zodiark again a few times but I dunno it just never drew me in like a lot of other FF's did never wanted to restart it. Never warmed to any of the character's either bar Balthier. I did like the battle system at first but having gone back playing through the older games recently its just not as enjoyable as good old ATB. The games ending felt very anti-climatic the most anti climatic of any of the FF games I've ever played (I have yet to play I,II,III and am in process of reaching end of V and then plan to go at III). I think that was what dissapointed me the most about it. And Vaan been so detached from the main story seemingly defeated the idea of what an RPG is for me.

 

[Razberry Knight]

For me FF XII was a game I just never retried playing through a second time thats usually a measure for me how much I like an FF game I tried to defeat Zodiark again a few times but I dunno it just never drew me in like a lot of other FF's did never wanted to restart it. Never warmed to any of the character's either bar Balthier.

I can understand that. I really feel like FF12 was a more "Fire emblem" like game. if that makes sense. th story was very focused btween nations. but w also get to see the world.

I did like the battle system at first but having gone back playing through the older games recently its just not as enjoyable as good old ATB.

ATB didn't xist until IV. even then V was the one game that refind ATB the most. Either way, the option to play traditional format is thre.

The games ending felt very anti-climatic the most anti climatic of any of the FF games I've ever played (I have yet to play I,II,III and am in process of reaching end of V and then plan to go at III). I think that was what dissapointed me the most about it. And Vaan been so detached from the main story seemingly defeated the idea of what an RPG is for me.

THe ending bing anti-climactic seems off. the ending seemed to match FF8's form. sure it wasn't the grandest i admit. but i don't think it was the least climactic. Overall i didn't expect it to be grander.

FF1 and 3 might have imprssiv endings but 2 might feel more lack luster than you would expect.

 

[Thule Esperada]

I think Vaan might have originally had a bigger role, but for some reason was cut. Quite a few scenes seem to imply Vaan was the Ocurian's secondary candidate to become a new dynast king. He stars of hating the empire just as much as Ashe, and is the only other party member who can see the Ocurian phantom Rassler/Recks. But Vaan eventually stops seeing the phantom, when he stars to let go of his hatered of the empire by spending time with Larsa. Ashe on the other hand continues to hold hatered untill the sun cryst. I wish they would have done more with this.

 

[Ayen]

FFXII is a game that some people had to play twice to even become a fan of. First time I played it, I enjoyed the whole opening segment, got to Vaan and lost all interest. Second time? I stuck with it longer and found myself enjoying it more. I like all the ways it's different and the battle system doesn't bother me since you can decide how much or how little you want to engage in it. I didn't even mind Vaan all that much, though I feel he just doesn't work as the main character.

I mainly liked the main story, though. I was never big on world exploration nor did I care for any of the side quests. Some times the game felt too big and having no sense of direction I got lost more often than not. Once I learned that I could change the party leader, I swapped to Ashe the second she joined my party and never looked back. Didn't care for how much they ripped off Star Wars, though. Straight down to the choreography. I kept expecting the Star Trek soundtrack to start playing.

But yeah, the hate died down when Final Fantasy XIII came out, but hell even that game has its fanbase. The FF fandom in general is pretty diverse. Which isn't a bad thing.

 

[Dionysos]

I’ve thought about this over the years. I didn’t dislike the game, though it felt less like a normal Final Fantasy to me for some reason. A lot of people have felt the same.

Yet, why? It had moogles, chocobos, magic, summons, and many of the franchise's staple monsters.

The new open battle system without battle transitions or stationary turn-based combat was unusual for a Final Fantasy game, but I don’t think that this was the cause of this difference. Nor was it as bad as some people make it out to be, in my opinion.

I believe that FFXII feels so different because it is set in Ivalice (the world of the FF: Tactics games). It therefore wears the aesthetics of that universe (particularly the FF: Tactics Advance games set during Ivalice’s golden age, where in the timeline the other species such as bangaas, veira, and moogles are not yet extinct). FFXII’s soundtrack was composed by Hitoshi Sakimoto (who did the music for the Tactics series also), and this music has a very distinctive style and is completely different to Nobuo Uematsu's melodies which people had been more familiar with and loved with the nearly all of the Final Fantasy games up to that point.

The plot of FFXII is also very Ivalicean. FF: Tactics was all about political intrigue, and so was FFXII. For a main Final Fantasy game this political spin was less familiar.

FFXII also used Ivalice’s own unique group of summons. We don’t see familiar faces such as Shiva, Ifrit, Ramuh, Carbuncle, Leviathan or Bahamut. In FFXII a handful of these summons are referenced in the form of being airships and sky fortresses.

Ivalice’s summons would have been alien to players familiar only with the main FF franchise. There were some espers who were references to other games, but they weren’t obvious and may have gone over the heads of many players. Mateus is named after Emperor Mateus from FFII. Exodus is essentially named after ExDeath, apparently. Chaos is a an FF staple. Zeromus is Zemus’ super-evil transformation in FFIV.

As for the other espers… Who in the FF universe is Belias? Cuchulainn? Adrammelech? Famfrit? Hashmal? These are all new characters to most FF players, although some would be familiar to players of Tactics.

The designs are also un-FF like. Gone are the simple designs of creatures that we all recognise. No beautifully formed Shiva, nor an easily recognised dragon as Bahamut. Instead we get a lot of creatures which are, let’s say, harder to look at and describe with words. They look more like monsters than typical FF summons.

The moogles of FFXII should also be commented on here. I’m not saying that I hate them, but Ivalicean moogles are very different to the moogles found anywhere else in the FF universe. Usually moogles are, well, mog-like, in that they are cat-like. They have batwings and pom-poms (sometimes), but they are otherwise cute little bipedal kitten-teddy-like creatures. Instead, Ivalice’s moogles are rabbits. They’ve experimented with enormous ears, and the faces are also more leporine at times. I can imagine that this change in appearance was a shock to many FF players accustomed to the usual design.

Keep it in mind that I’m not criticising FFXII for any of this. While it was one of my least favourite FF games (and is the only FF game I never actually completed), I still enjoyed it while I was playing it. I’m merely pointing out that this game felt so different because it was essentially acting as a bridge between the main Final Fantasy franchise and its FF:Tactics spin-off (a franchise with a completely different atmosphere and appearance).

Combine the lack of an airship, the new battle system, and Ivalicean aesthetics, and we get a game which is so unlike previous FF games that it is unsurprising that it alienated some players.

It’s not the first or last time that FF experimented, but there is something about Ivalicean aesthetics that marks it out as unique.