Why is the game hated by a lot of fans?

[RioDragon]

Nobody really hates FFVII itself. Even if I were to say I 'hated' FFVII, it's the fans that get my goat. They taut FFVII all the time as the best game or the best RPG or best FF title, but they don't really compare it to anything in the series, nor do they pay attention to the RPGs outside of their little bubble that do so much more. FFVII had nothing really revolutionary, but it's put on a pedestal like it's a God or something, which is what I can never fathom.

My only explanation is that when impressionable people hear something enough, they start to believe it and perpetuate it by repeating it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over... JUST SHUT UP. I'm in the beginnings of my own game design career, and preparing for it, I've seen so many games that do so much more than FFVII (and in some cases, more than any FF game ever did), but I had to dig and scrape to learn about these games because all you ever hear about is Final Fantasy VII and how 'awesome' the characters are.

You want some of the best characterization in a videogame and one of the deepest plots? Play Planescape: Torment. It's not the best RPG, but neither is VII or any other game.

 

[Sir Kenneth]

You want some of the best characterization in a videogame and one of the deepest plots? Play Planescape: Torment. It's not the best RPG, but neither is VII or any other game.

Planescape: Torment is the shit. Truly (and sadly) a forgotten classic. To get back on topic though, saying that a lot of people hate FF VII is just plain silly. 99.9% of all polls about which FF is the best will end with FF VII coming out on top. Sure it has its distractors, but so does every other game in the series.

 

[UltimaFantasy2007]

VII is nowhere near unique in that "rawness", or being "harsh, brutal and depressing". Let's take a quick look at the game right before it for example.

VI Spoilers -

Spoiler

Celes gets beaten right in front of you. Terra losing her mind as she finds out her true origins. Kefka backstabbing the emperor and moving the statues halfway through the game. He destroys the fucking world. You LOST, Kefka won. You couldn't save the world. Then, you wake up as celes in the middle of nowhere, and what happens next? Cid dies, And celes tries to commit suicide! That's a bigger punch in the balls then I ever felt from VII. That's plenty "raw", and incredibly depressing. Especially all those happening in such a quick sequence. Then you go and try and find your friends. You find strago in the cult of kefka because he believes relm to have died. I'm not going to try and go into depth of shadow's dream sequences. All the while kefka's blowing up towns for laughs with his light of judgement. And the big kicker is that even though you defeat kefka in the end, the world is still in ruin and there's no lifestream or the like to repair the damage, and 90% of the world worshipped the guy you just killed as a god. Happy ending huh?

The only edge VII would have over VI in that regard is Atmosphere, and only really in midgar. And VI isn't too far behind in the atmosphere department with WoR. They're both pretty equal in the exact manners that you claim that other final fantasies do not share.

Or let's a considerably "darker" and more "brutal" game that came right after it. Final Fantasy Tactics. I'm not going to try and summarize all the fucked up and depressing things that happen in that game, because they happen constantly. VII doesn't even compare to the kind of "harsh, brutal and depressing" shit that happens in Tactics. Not even in the same league.

If you're going to make such claims, try basing them in fact next time.

This is my problem with VII. Not the game which I love, but the fans who make such ridiculous claims as if it's the end-all-be-all of RPG's when it's nowhere near close, not even when it comes to JRPGs.

You're part of the problem.

I understand what you're saying and I never meant all, but some other Final Fantasy games. I just think it's a great game. Not the best, but a great experience nonetheless. My favourite Final Fantasy is actually IX (and I loved VI) so that tells you right there. I just think that people who bash (but not hate) VII is blatantly because of reasons already stated in this thread. That is that they don't like that people are acting like it's THE RPG to end all RPGs. I agree, it's not, but you can't change their minds. I am a bit tired of hearing people repeat how it's overrated, though. It's as bad as those who keep saying they love the game and think it's the best RPG ever. Bring up VII and its either 'It's the greatest RPG ever made' or 'It's horribly overrated' and some of the latter haven't even played the game.

I'll stand by my whole XIII looks great statement, but when I mentioned the Shiva motorcycle I was being sarcastic that I loved that idea. I do like the design of the bike, but I will agree the whole transforming thing is silly.

That and the Fights seem like they're trying to incorporate AC's style into actual gameplay. Which is great and all, but I didn't enjoy AC's fighting. I wanted to see some actual swordplay, not fucking Dragonball Z.

That was the whole point from the start and the team made that perfectly clear; but it's also clear that It's not as dramatic as AC's fight sequences if you watch the combat. Lightning's does a couple of stylish back flips and combos an opponent in the air with the Launch command. There's actually a lot of instances where she's simply swinging her blade and engaging in basic swordplay. I think it's just in terms of pace and performing the moves in a stylish manner, which will relate to the film. I don't think we need to be worrying about that too much.

 

[RioDragon]

I understand what you're saying and I never meant all, but some other Final Fantasy games. I just think it's a great game. Not the best, but a great experience nonetheless. My favourite Final Fantasy is actually IX (and I loved VI) so that tell you right there. I just think that people who bash (but not hate) VII is blatantly because of reasons already stated in this thread. That is that they don't like that people are acting like it's THE RPG to end all RPGs. I agree, it's not, but you can't change their minds. I am a bit tired of hearing people repeat how it's overrated, though. It's as bad as those who keep saying they love the game and think it's the best RPG ever. Bring up VII and its either 'It's the greatest RPG ever made' or 'It's horribly overrated' and some of the latter haven't even played the game.

I'll tell you why people keep saying FFVII is overrated. It. Simply. Is. But the problem here as that so many people praise it for no legitimate reason. Even I don't praise any single game as much as FFVII fans orgasm over Cloud and Sephiroth for being utterly mediocre characters that just look good. And it's more than just a matter of VII. It's the oversaturation of the VII formula. With the FFVII sequels/prequels themselves, I could stand a continuous motif, but it's seeping into the rest of the series with FFX, FFXIII and Versus XIII.

Everybody in these newer games look like a copy or mashup of FFVII characters, and it's only perpetuating the damn thing. It even went on with Kingdom Hearts series, though I could tolerate the first game in KH, it's making me sick that Nomura gets so much exposure with his designs. All it is is a reminder EVERYWHERE of how overblown FFVII was/is. I'd love to see Yoshitaka Amano back in the designer's chair. His ink-painterly style is so much smoother and has a lot LESS of a bad track record, not to mention he was one of the founding creators of FF alongside Sakaguchi and Nobuo, who both departed. And Amano's just cast aside to do promo and title card art.

I'll stand by my whole XIII looks great statement, but I when I said the Shiva motorcycle I was being sarcastic thatI loved that idea. I do like the design of the bike, but I will agree the whole trransforming thing is silly. XIII does share similarities to VII, but it's also looking pretty ambitious.

I really see no ambition. It's just repackaging FFVII to give the fans more to jerk off over. Ambitious as in, 'pretty'? What were FF X-XII, then? Does it make a game more ambitious just to have longer cutscenes and more realistic artwork with the same, dull characters?

 

[Caryslan]

QUOTE=UltimaFantasy2007;574347]I think the majority of people hate it because of the love it receives. They just don't think it deserves all the hype it gets and constantly puts it down when, as a matter of fact, they enjoy it themselves. Constantly I hear "It wasn't that special" or "It's overrated" and it's just people hating on the fact that fans think it's the best in the series. It was a very good game with a rawness that other Final Fantasies do not share. It just seems a lot more harsh, brutal and depressing; but with some charm and quirkiness thrown in. It is understandable why so many people love it as it's when a lot of gamers hopped on the Final Fantasy bandwagon and it feature one of the most complete cast of characters.

Oh, and Final Fantasy XIII's looking great and I do love the Shiva motorcycle.
[/QUOTE]

Someone posted about Final Fantasy VI, and I agree with them fully. But let's keep in mind that brutal or depressing events did not start with Final Fantasy VI or VII. The series had been using them for awhile, and many of them started in Final Fantasy II.

Let's take a look at some of them....

Spoiler

Final Fantasy II
-In the opening sequence of the game, all four of your playable characters are slaughtered by Imperial Guards as they flee from Fynn after their parents are killed and their homeland conqured..

-In an attempt to destory Deist and its resistence, the empire poisions the water of the wyerns killing them all. Without them, the Dragoons are unable to resist and almost all of them are killed when the empire invades their kingdom.

-Nelly the daughter of Josef is kidnapped by the Borghen who threatens to kill her if Josef helped the resistance.

-The empire builds a powerful airship know as dreadnought which proceeds to attack the towns of Poft, Paloom, Gatrea and Altair, devastating them

-The empire unleashes a giant cyclone that destroys the towns of Poft, Paloom, Gatrea and Altair. On top of this , the cyclone threatens to devastate the world with its power.

-Over the course of the game, several party members lose their lives in their struggle against the empire.

-One of these party members, Ricard Highwind is killed by Emperor Matelus, the main villain of the game.

For its time, FF II was a fairly brutal and depressing RPG when compared to FF I and III or Dragonquest. Whenever the party had any success, the Empire responded by unleashing something far worse than what you just defeated.

And for his time, Emperor Matelus was tiers above Garland and the Dragonlord in terms of how far a villain would go to see his ambations relaized.

I do give FF VII the overall edge when it comes to atmosphere, although we do have to keep in mind that this was a Famicom RPG. In the various remakes, the scars of the empire's actions are apperant in the damaged buildings and potholes that litter the ground in the various towns and castles.

I give FF VII credit for what it did, but raw and depressing events have been in the series since FF II. If anything, FF VII is an evolution of what FF II, IV, and VI did in terms of introducing a deeper storyline into the series.

 

[UltimaFantasy2007]

I'll tell you why people keep saying FFVII is overrated. It. Simply. Is. But the problem here as that so many people praise it for no legitimate reason. Even I don't praise any single game as much as FFVII fans orgasm over Cloud and Sephiroth for being utterly mediocre characters that just look good. And it's more than just a matter of VII. It's the oversaturation of the VII formula. With the FFVII sequels/prequels themselves, I could stand a continuous motif, but it's seeping into the rest of the series with FFX, FFXIII and Versus XIII.

Everybody in these newer games look like a copy or mashup of FFVII characters, and it's only perpetuating the damn thing. It even went on with Kingdom Hearts series, though I could tolerate the first game in KH, it's making me sick that Nomura gets so much exposure with his designs. All it is is a reminder EVERYWHERE of how overblown FFVII was/is. I'd love to see Yoshitaka Amano back in the designer's chair. His ink-painterly style is so much smoother and has a lot LESS of a bad track record, not to mention he was one of the founding creators of FF alongside Sakaguchi and Nubuo, who both departed. And Amano's just cast aside to do promo and title card art.

I really see no ambition. It's just repackaging FFVII to give the fans more to jerk off over. Ambitious as in, 'pretty'? What were FF X-XII, then? Does it make a game more ambitious just to have longer cutscenes and more realistic artwork with the same, dull characters?

I thought I edited out ambitious, that was a poor word because it's more ambitious with regards to the technology behind it rather than the actual game itself.

It is overrated, but when someone asks my opinion I'm not going to say 'it's overrated' I'm just going to say I thought it was a great game and I enjoyed the experience. It may be overrated but I don't need to hear it every 4 seconds; just like I don't need people telling me VII is the greatest when I tell them my favourite is IX. I don't like either because it's just tarnishing the game for me. VII has become this war zone. I wish people would just state they like the game, or they don't. That aint going to happen, though, unfortunately. I also agree about the characters and how they look very similar to that of VIIs. It seems VII characters are the base template for which Nomura uses when designing the cast.

@Caryslan: I did try and play I and II but I couldn't because I feel they've aged badly so I wouldn't know about them so much. I won't deny that other Final Fantasy games have dark, sad, brutal (and so forth) moments; but what I was getting at is that, generally, throughout VII was pretty gloomy in the music, atmosphere, characters. It was just like someone bare a smile please. I didn't want to come across as if I was saying VII owned all other titles. That wasn't my intention. For one, I haven't fully played I, II, III, IV (great game) or V (also, great game). I'm playing those now. You have to think though that people who do worship VII probably haven't played many Final Fantasy titles so it's like they don't have as much insight. As I've said, IX's my personal favourite and I would even rate X/VI second and then VII close behind that.

 

[RioDragon]

I thought I edited out ambitious, that was a poor word because it's more ambitious with regards to the technology behind it rather than the actual game itself.

It is overrated, but when someone asks my opinion I'm not going to say 'it's overrated' I'm just going to say I thought it was a great game and I enjoyed the experience. It may be overrated but I don't need to hear it every 4 seconds; just like I don't need people telling me VII is the greatest when I tell them my favourite is IX. I don't like either because it's just tarnishing the game for me. VII has become this war zone. I wish people would just state they like the game, or they don't. That aint going to happen, though, unfortunately. I also agree about the characters and how they look very similar to that of VIIs. It seems VII characters are the base template for which Nomura uses when designing the cast.

I know it's annoying to use the wrong word sometimes. Happens to me too every now and then. The problem with VII on both sides ('It's the best' or 'It's overrated') will always be the first side, IMO. It's because of the shortsightedness of the obsessive fanbase that it annoys the people who are neutral or don't like it so much. For example, at the time FFVII came out, that was all role-playing gamers cared about, despite some great (possibly better, depending on opinion) games released in the same time frame on the PC, namely Fallout, Fallout 2, and Planescape:Torment, which came out a while afterwards (ironically, the lead designer of Planescape: Torment was partially inspired to make the game by FFVII, the same game that stole most of his game's thunder).

I really feel for designers of such games because these games were really ambitious and truly classics, but didn't sell well because the Playstation and FFVII were the console and game of choice for emerging Role-Playing Gamers. Of course, being a game design major and an RPG enthusiast myself doesn't help with my anti-enthusiasm for VII.

 

[Zerokku]

Honestly Ultima, the only reason the "overrated" crowd is so loud about their opinion, is in response to the equally loud "VII is teh best evar" crowd. And it happens with pretty much every single RPG.

The only JRPG I've ever seen that never really gets much in the way of legitimate hate is Chrono Trigger. Sure some people dislike it, but I've never seen an RPG fan come out and say it's a bad game unless they're a graphics whore, but that falls under "no legitimate hate".

 

[CHIP]

think the majority of people hate it because of the love it receives. They just don't think it deserves all the hype it gets and constantly puts it down when, as a matter of fact, they enjoy it themselves. Constantly I hear "It wasn't that special" or "It's overrated" and it's just people hating on the fact that fans think it's the best in the series.

I agree. The more popular a game is, then usually, it means there's a higher chance of it becoming a target, naysayers singling it out like monsters, discrediting it, and generally just 'controversially' claiming that it's 'overrated' when in reality; more often than not, it actually thoroughly deserves all the credit and recognition it receives. Granted, some people genuinely dislike FFVII, however, some people just hate on it because they want to sound 'controversial' and work the fanboys up into a rabid uncontrollable frenzy. I've witnessed this happening on hundreds of forums. One guy says something controversial, and then other people see the massive reaction from the obsessive fanboys, and jumps on the 'controversial' bandwagon. Whatever people claim though, the bottom line is that FFVII was a revolutionary game and it was the first game that introduced the RPG genre to a Western audience. As far as I can remember, no-one was claiming back in '97 that FFVII was overrated. This is another reason why I think more people nowadays are hating on FFVII and saying that it's massively overrated, because they're unfairly comparing the game with modern-day games instead of comparing it to games that were produced on the same system with the same processing limitations taken into consideration. Compare FFVII to games that were released back in '97, and the difference in quality, in terms of graphics, gameplay, music, and characterisation, is clearly gargantuan. FFVII outshone nearly almost every game on the PSone and it's hard to imagine RPGs or Final Fantasy being as universally acclaimed as they/it is today if it wasn't for FFVII. It started the ball rolling, so to speak. FFVII was also, as far as I'm concerned, the last real challenging Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy games, as with all games, have progressively become easier and less challenging to complete, which is a real shame. Is FFVII overrated, though? In my opinion. No. Hell no.

 

[RioDragon]

I agree. The more popular a game is, then usually, it means there's a higher chance of it becoming a target, naysayers singling it out like monsters, discrediting it, and generally just 'controversially' claiming that it's 'overrated' when in reality; more often than not, it actually thoroughly deserves all the credit and recognition it receives. Granted, some people genuinely dislike FFVII, however, some people just hate on it because they want to sound 'controversial' and work the fanboys up into a rabid uncontrollable frenzy. I've witnessed this happening on hundreds of forums. One guy says something controversial, and then other people see the massive reaction from the obsessive fanboys, and jumps on the 'controversial' bandwagon. Whatever people claim though, the bottom line is that FFVII was a revolutionary game and it was the first game that introduced the RPG genre to a Western audience.

FF II (IV) and FF III (VI), or even ChronoTrigger Anyone? I remember those being pretty damn popular in their time over here in the US. I was just never able to play it because 1. I never got a SNES. 2. At the time, my parents were religious whack jobs who believed people who played RPGs (like D&D, specifically) all lost their touch with reality. That fact stated, what was so 'revolutionary'? About it? The graphics were outdated and bad, even from 1997, as I've already compared it to 1992's Alone in the Dark for having a very similar style. So, what's revolutionary? The cutscenes? 'Cuz that's all I can think you're talking about.

As far as I can remember, no-one was claiming back in '97 that FFVII was overrated. This is another reason why I think more people nowadays are hating on FFVII and saying that it's massively overrated, because they're unfairly comparing the game with modern-day games instead of comparing it to games that were produced on the same system with the same processing limitations taken into consideration. Compare FFVII to games that were released back in '97, and the difference in quality, in terms of graphics, gameplay, music, and characterisation, is clearly gargantuan.

Oh, you ONLY want console RPGs, eh? That's why FFVII fans are such bigots. They don't even see the other stuff around at the time. Y'know COMPUTERS could play games too, right? And are you aware some of these were RPGs? I know I'm barking up the same tree again, but Fallout and Fallout 2 are great examples of better games left behind because of FFVII. The Graphics weren't 3D, as it used DirectDraw and an isometric viewpoint similar to Diablo, but its atmosphere was unrivaled and the general freedom of the choices you could make were daunting. Almost every decision changed some aspect of the plot or the game's world. You could kill off cities with a single action, or cause bad things to happen to your own people just by trying to help them in the wrong way. Yes, it may be a different gameplay style than FFVII, but I think there's no way you can't look at the achievement and call it more impressive. And the only reason it got little to no attention was because all the RPG Gamers were on the Sony/FFVII bandwagon at the time. Even I'm guilty of not touching Fallout until around 2006, though FFVII had never hooked me.

FFVII outshone nearly almost every game on the PSone and it's hard to imagine RPGs or Final Fantasy being as universally acclaimed as they/it is today if it wasn't for FFVII. It started the ball rolling, so to speak. FFVII was also, as far as I'm concerned, the last real challenging Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy games, as with all games, have progressively become easier and less challenging to complete, which is a real shame. Is FFVII overrated, though? In my opinion. No. Hell no.

As I've said, without FFVII, RPGs would still get a day in the sun at the same time, and with better games, IMO. Fallout, Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment, Revelations: Persona (though the Amercianization was bastardly, I still consider it better), etc. In fact, RPGs would've had a FASTER Western revolution with these games as they were American/Canadian RPGs or, in Persona's case, used aspects of the Western RPG while being notably Japanese. FFVII did nothing new and gets praise for merely being mediocre. As for your statements about people 'just trying to be contraversial', How's about 'they genuinely don't like it'? There seriously were better games at the time, FFVII was just a marketting beast that swallowed people and diverted their attention from everything else by advertising itself as THE RPG.

 

[Rey]

Ummm what this game is hated? Since when? FInal Fantasy VII has no reason to be hated its just too good of a game! I love this game and why should it be hated. This game is Overrated and is one of the best Final Fantasys ever Man your out of your mind. So many sequels prove it. Prequels aswell like CC.

 

[Zerokku]

Whatever people claim though, the bottom line is that FFVII was a revolutionary game and it was the first game that introduced the RPG genre to a Western audience.

No. I'm pretty sure that Dungeons & Dragons introduced the RPG genre to a western audience. Y'know, cause it practically invented the genre. Do you think before you speak?

If we're talking JRPG's then Dragon Quest(Warrior) Final Fantasy I, IV, VI, Chrono Trigger just to name some of the more popular ones off of the top of my head... They were all around well before VII. VII helped bring the genre a bit more to the mainstream yes, but that had nothing to do with the quality of the game so much as the insane marketing blitz put out by sony. Everyone knew of the game and got built into a collective hype.

because they're unfairly comparing the game with modern-day games instead of comparing it to games that were produced on the same system with the same processing limitations taken into consideration. Compare FFVII to games that were released back in '97, and the difference in quality, in terms of graphics, gameplay, music, and characterisation, is clearly gargantuan.

Or I can compare it to a jrpg that came out soon after, or even a jrpg that came before. Final Fantasy Tactics, or Chrono Trigger. Both superior JRPGs to VII. I haven't been too familiar with WRPG's until recently, so I'll keep my mouth shut about those and let LupinVoid handle that.

And let's compare it to its contemporaries
Graphics - Average. FMVs were amazing at the time, and prerendered Backgrounds gave the world beauty and life, but outside of those two things, the graphics were fairly average comparatively, and in some cases down-right bad.

Gameplay - Standard turn based JRPG fair. Nothing unique or special. Materia isn't anything more special then half the "special" mechanics JRPGs use. I prefer a take on the battle system like grandia's myself.

Music - One of Uematsu's better soundtracks admittedly. That being said it's soundtrack is only slight above par with most other Final Fantasies, and pales in comparison to his/mitsuda's work for Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross.

Characterization - One of it's strengths I'll give you that, even regardless of how forgettable half the cast was. That being said, while the characterization was excellent, the cast was rather average. I'd argue that VI and CT are about on par as well. VI for the main cast (not so much some of the extra cast) and CT all around the board. And CT managed it with a silent protagonist.

So no, the difference in quality is not "gargantuan". Nor is it particularly impressive. Or arguably, even existant.

All VII was, was a good game at the right time and the right place, with $texas poured into marketing it by sony.

I'll also second LupinVoid in the comment of such games as fallout 1&2 being left behind despite the fact they were vastly superior RPGs.

FFVII outshone nearly almost every game on the PSone and it's hard to imagine RPGs or Final Fantasy being as universally acclaimed as they/it is today if it wasn't for FFVII. It started the ball rolling, so to speak.

I'm pretty sure Chrono Trigger was lauded as one of the best RPG's and games of all time, well before VII was released.

If anything, if VII hadn't been released it would have given more JRPG's the time/ability to shine. Grandia, BoF, MegaTen series, Dragon Quest, Chrono Cross, Suikoden ect. And that's just JRPGs, not even counting WRPGs.

I'd also argue that pokemon, (while releasing in the same time frame) introduced many more people to JRPGs then any Final Fantasy ever has, atleast when it comes to western audiences. Hell I don't know a single person growing up who gamed and didn't play pokemon at one time.

FFVII was also, as far as I'm concerned, the last real challenging Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy games, as with all games, have progressively become easier and less challenging to complete, which is a real shame. Is FFVII overrated, though? In my opinion. No. Hell no.

VII wasn't even remotely challenging. The last challenging game in the series was V.

And yes VII is overrated. Your comments are proof. Needlessly bold and flat-out fallacious claims that you fail to even support thoroughly? You come off as just the kind of blind fanboy that annoys people like me and LupineVoid.

 

[Targix]

Umm I'm pretty sure they made Last Order (Anime show of Zack Fair & Cloud Strife) Before they made FF7 and I don't really see anything wrong with FF7 cause. Zack & Cloud have strong realtionship of friendship. And They was in uhh Mako blood thing? (Shit I forgot how to say that) So basically their is alot common expect personally different just bit different.

So I really can see why Zack and Cloud is similar by falling down and fall in love same lady (Aeris) Etc.

Annnd correct me If I'm wrong. I think they did meantion Genesis in FF7 game where Seph found monster made in.. (shit what it was call again arggh.. Tube thing monster stuck inside during exepremint (spell?) ya know? ) He meantion Gensis or something..

FFVI was pretty awesome even thing seem turn around real fast but still awesome xD

 

[Zerokku]

[Mod Edit: Content Removed]

Umm I'm pretty sure they made Last Order (Anime show of Zack Fair & Cloud Strife) Before they made FF7

Wrong. Last Order came out in 2005. VII, in 1997. 8 years apart, losing some of the most important people in the original development team such as Sakaguchi. Kitase may have directed VII, but the conceptual design actually came from Sakaguchi. Much like TWEWY with nomura. Nomura came up with the conceptual design, but was largely hands off with the rest of the game.

and I don't really see anything wrong with FF7 cause. Zack & Cloud have strong realtionship of friendship. And They was in uhh Mako blood thing? (Shit I forgot how to say that) So basically their is alot common expect personally different just bit different.

Their Friendship isn't being debated. But what does the Jenova cell injections have anything to do with their similarities or differences? Besides the fact they were both captured at the same time? What does half the shit you mentioned have to do with anything?

Not to mention, Zack is an obnoxious loud mouth, and Cloud is an angsty introvert. Zack got into soldier, cloud didn't. I could go on, but I don't feel like it.

So I really can see why Zack and Cloud is similar by falling down and fall in love same lady (Aeris) Etc.

But what do their similarities or differences have to do at all with happening to meet the exact same girl, in the exact same way? All it is is unoriginal and bad writing. Going for parralells doesn't excuse how cringe-worthy that scene was.

Annnd correct me If I'm wrong. I think they did meantion Genesis in FF7 game where Seph found monster made in.. (shit what it was call again arggh.. Tube thing monster stuck inside during exepremint (spell?) ya know? ) He meantion Gensis or something..

Half wrong. IIRC genesis was indeed mentioned. However we didn't know that genesis was going to turn out to be some god awful poetry spouting knock-off of nomura's man-crush.

FFVI was pretty awesome even thing seem turn around real fast but still awesome xD

I agree VI is awesome, but that's not the purpose of this discussion.

 

[Targix]

Before I start tearing your post apart let me just say this -

ENGLISH MOTHER*****, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!

LOL I'm sorry if my english made you upset it's not my first langure. As I've post about it in this http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/guadosalam/pounce-ello-31632.html If you want see why.

Wrong. Last Order came out in 2005. VII, in 1997. 8 years apart, losing some of the most important people in the original development team such as Sakaguchi. Kitase may have directed VII, but the conceptual design actually came from Sakaguchi. Much like TWEWY with nomura. Nomura came up with the conceptual design, but was largely hands off with the rest of the game.

Oh wow I swore I saw somewhere said before ff7.. Hmph. Sorry then haha, But I don't know much about any person who create them.

Their Friendship isn't being debated. But what does the Jenova cell injections have anything to do with their similarities or differences? Besides the fact they were both captured at the same time? What does half the shit you mentioned have to do with anything?

Not to mention, Zack is an obnoxious loud mouth, and Cloud is an angsty introvert. Zack got into soldier, cloud didn't. I could go on, but I don't feel like it.

That's aboustely true what you just said. But I still think Jenova cell probly affect them to be little similar also in real world there .01% chance to have SAME everything what you do I've see that happen before. And Zack to you is loud mouth but, to me hes is most aboustley friendly warm-hearted to me (well including cute to me >///> )

But i dont know what else other to say honestly.

But what do their similarities or differences have to do at all with happening to meet the exact same girl, in the exact same way? All it is is unoriginal and bad writing. Going for parralells doesn't excuse how cringe-worthy that scene was.

If you think that way then Why did Zack pass Buster sword to Cloud thats oringally from Angeal? And why did Zack meantion in FF7 Game as well, Why did Cloud stole all meormy from him and story and tell everyone, And trying to be mercanury (spell?) That Zack wanted to do after escape? That's something Cloud want to be Zack and their friendship is very close (To me they are tbh) So I still see thats possible they have excalty do something include falling down etc.

Half wrong. IIRC genesis was indeed mentioned. However we didn't know that genesis was going to turn out to be some god awful poetry spouting knock-off of nomura's man-crush.

rofl god awful poetry spouting.. omg I love you man. But I find it hirialious really when I saw it in youtube (Never played crisis core but really want to when i got money)

I agree VI is awesome, but that's not the purpose of this discussion.

True, just want to point out when someone said about it haha.


Feel free dont reply to it if you dont want if I give you stress o_o

 

[Zerokku]

LOL I'm sorry if my english made you upset it's not my first langure. As I've post about it in this http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/guadosalam/pounce-ello-31632.html If you want see why.

Nah, it's a quote from the movie Pulp Fiction. I just like to swing it out when someone has atrociously bad grammar or spelling. No offense intended, just having some fun =) I can completely understand.

Oh wow I swore I saw somewhere said before ff7.. Hmph. Sorry then haha, But I don't know much about any person who create them.

My point is with bringing up people like sakaguchi, is that some of the people who created the vision for VII's universe in the first place, are now gone. The people in charge now are essentially winging it and throwing whatever they think fits, and given the compilation's piss-poor quality, it shows.

That's aboustely true what you just said. But I still think Jenova cell probly affect them to be little similar also in real world there .01% chance to have SAME everything what you do I've see that happen before. And Zack to you is loud mouth but, to me hes is most aboustley friendly warm-hearted to me (well including cute to me >///> )

The Jenova cells wouldn't go that far into affecting anything in their lives. And I can understand why people would like zack, but he came off as simply too naive and loud. It wasn't charming to me, simply annoying. But to each his own I guess.

If you think that way then Why did Zack pass Buster sword to Cloud thats oringally from Angeal? And why did Zack meantion in FF7 Game as well, Why did Cloud stole all meormy from him and story and tell everyone, And trying to be mercanury (spell?) That Zack wanted to do after escape? That's something Cloud want to be Zack and their friendship is very close (To me they are tbh) So I still see thats possible they have excalty do something include falling down etc.

The Buster sword parrallel makes sense, and comes off as a heart-warming story of how the sword was passed between close friend to close friend. The problem with your arguement concering the memorys being passed down is that wouldn't affect how cloud met aerith, since the only reason he met her in the first place was the roof of the church collapsing. It was accidental and all by chance. Having zack meet her in the same way comes off as lazy writing, and doesn't do anything to strengthen their relationships as characters.

rofl god awful poetry spouting.. omg I love you man. But I find it hirialious really when I saw it in youtube (Never played crisis core but really want to when i got money)

I despise genesis. I almost feel offended that nomura/kitase thought a villain like that would be acceptable. He felt like a half-assed mix of sephiroth and kuja, and failed at that.

Feel free dont reply to it if you dont want if I give you stress o_o

Nah it's all good =) I like discussing stuff like this. the only time I get annoyed is when people make ridiculous claims like some of the posters me and Lupine have responded to in this thread. You can tell I'm annoyed when I post the gif. And even then it's almost fun to tear apart someones terrible arguement/logic. I'm an arrogant, elitist asshole. What can I say?

 

[CHIP]

No. I'm pretty sure that Dungeons & Dragons introduced the RPG genre to a western audience.Y'know, cause it practically invented the genre. Do you think before you speak?

As far as I'm aware, FFVII was the first RPG to achieve a considerable mainstream popularity in the West, which is what I actually meant to say.

but that had nothing to do with the quality of the game so much as the insane marketing blitz put out by sony. Everyone knew of the game and got built into a collective hype.

So, the game's actual quality had nothing to do with how well it sold? It was simply down to the fact that it was so ludicrously hyped-up beforehand? Right. You do realise, there is a simple reason why FFVII was so massively hyped-up. Wanna know why? Because it was an exceptional game and it thoroughly deserved all the hype. Shocking, isn't it?

Or I can compare it to a jrpg that came out soon after, or even a jrpg that came before. Final Fantasy Tactics, or Chrono Trigger.

If you carried out a survey on the street and asked people what their favourite RPG is of all-time I think the majority of people would probably say FFVII (or name one of the Final Fantasy games). Admittedly, I've never played Chrono Trigger, so I can't really comment, but as I say, I'm sure many people would disagree with you here. In other words, you're probably in the minority with this assertion.

And let's compare it to its contemporaries
Graphics - Average. FMVs were amazing at the time, and prerendered Backgrounds gave the world beauty and life, but outside of those two things, the graphics were fairly average comparatively, and in some cases down-right bad.

Graphics? Average? Are you serious, sir? Granted, Cloud may have only been comprised of ten polygons, but the battle-sequences were very visually impressive, and the pre-rendered back drops were simply stunning compared to many other games around at that time.

Gameplay - Standard turn based JRPG fair. Nothing unique or special. Materia isn't anything more special then half the "special" mechanics JRPGs use. I prefer a take on the battle system like grandia's myself.

I'd beg to differ. The Materia-system was unique in my opinion. I've played my fair share of RPGs and I've never come across a system that gives the player such incredible scope for character customization and is so brilliantly addictive, yet so simple to grasp. If you ask me, no Final Fantasy (or RPG I've played for that matter) has surpassed the Materia-system in FFVII in terms of accessibility, customization, and sheer addictiveness.

Music - One of Uematsu's better soundtracks admittedly. That being said it's soundtrack is only slight above par with most other Final Fantasies, and pales in comparison to his/mitsuda's work for Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross.

Let's have a moment of honesty. The soundtrack in FFVII was excellent. Personally, I'd say more recent Final Fantasy games have been sorely lacking the kind of emotional resonance found in the music of older Final Fantasy games like FFVII.

Characterization - One of it's strengths I'll give you that, even regardless of how forgettable half the cast was. That being said, while the characterization was excellent, the cast was rather average.

The cast in FFVII were average? Of course they were *Rolls eyes*. I'm not so sure you'll get many people agreeing with you that the cast in FFVII were "average." The characterization in FFVII was unarguably excellent, with even the minor characters, like Yuffie, being given fleshed-out backstories, which added to the overall convincingness of the mythology. It's also a testament to the game's excellence, that despite being entirely text-based, it managed to create such believable and captivating characters. The characters in FFIX or XII were voice-acted, and more realistically-rounded in appearance, although they aren't even as half as genuinely memorable, convincing or had as much depth to their personalities as the characters in FFVII.

So no, the difference in quality is not "gargantuan".

I said compared to "most" games around at that time. Obviously not all of them.

VII wasn't even remotely challenging. The last challenging game in the series was V.

Compared to most modern games it was. Which was my point.

And yes VII is overrated. Your comments are proof. Needlessly bold and flat-out fallacious claims that you fail to even support thoroughly?

My comments need proof? It's opinion-based you idiot. That's how it is with every game. People's opinions will always be polarised over the overall quality of how good a game is, especially with a series as contentious as Final Fantasy.

You come off as just the kind of blind fanboy that annoys people like me and LupineVoid.

Blind fanboy? Sure. Of course. I'm a just a blind "fan boy" for expressing my opinion.

Whoever you are, sir, you are most assuredly a dumbass. Debate me properly when you can actually learn to form a logical sequence of words and have a basic understanding of logic.

 

[Sir Kenneth]

FF II (IV) and FF III (VI), or even ChronoTrigger Anyone? I remember those being pretty damn popular in their time over here in the US. I was just never able to play it because 1. I never got a SNES. 2. At the time, my parents were religious whack jobs who believed people who played RPGs (like D&D, specifically) all lost their touch with reality. That fact stated, what was so 'revolutionary'? About it? The graphics were outdated and bad, even from 1997, as I've already compared it to 1992's Alone in the Dark for having a very similar style. So, what's revolutionary? The cutscenes? 'Cuz that's all I can think you're talking about.

Oh, you ONLY want console RPGs, eh? That's why FFVII fans are such bigots. They don't even see the other stuff around at the time. Y'know COMPUTERS could play games too, right? And are you aware some of these were RPGs? I know I'm barking up the same tree again, but Fallout and Fallout 2 are great examples of better games left behind because of FFVII. The Graphics weren't 3D, as it used DirectDraw and an isometric viewpoint similar to Diablo, but its atmosphere was unrivaled and the general freedom of the choices you could make were daunting. Almost every decision changed some aspect of the plot or the game's world. You could kill off cities with a single action, or cause bad things to happen to your own people just by trying to help them in the wrong way. Yes, it may be a different gameplay style than FFVII, but I think there's no way you can't look at the achievement and call it more impressive. And the only reason it got little to no attention was because all the RPG Gamers were on the Sony/FFVII bandwagon at the time. Even I'm guilty of not touching Fallout until around 2006, though FFVII had never hooked me.

As I've said, without FFVII, RPGs would still get a day in the sun at the same time, and with better games, IMO. Fallout, Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment, Revelations: Persona (though the Amercianization was bastardly, I still consider it better), etc. In fact, RPGs would've had a FASTER Western revolution with these games as they were American/Canadian RPGs or, in Persona's case, used aspects of the Western RPG while being notably Japanese. FFVII did nothing new and gets praise for merely being mediocre. As for your statements about people 'just trying to be contraversial', How's about 'they genuinely don't like it'? There seriously were better games at the time, FFVII was just a marketting beast that swallowed people and diverted their attention from everything else by advertising itself as THE RPG.

What was revolutionary at the time was the accessibility and the cinematic storytelling combining CGI and more dynamic angles in a way that no other contemporary RPG did. Baldur's Gate and Fallout are great, and while I love those games and recognize that they have revolutionary elements which FF VII lacked. I also realise that FF VII had elements which those games did not.

One of the reasons that FF VII became such a smash hit was the simplicity. Baldur's Gate and Fallout were both huge sprawling games with lots of things to do, allowing the player a great level of customization. Therein lies their strength, but it is also their weakness. Both were essentially roleplaying games made for roleplaying game fans, and thus lacked the breakthrough power which allowed Final Fantasy VII to seriously blow the RPG genre into the mainstream. Gameplay-wise Final Fantasy VII was completely the opposite of Baldur's Gate and Fallout. It was FF stripped down to the bare necesities and in many ways it was a step backwards compared to the FF's that went before it. Thus it's appeal was much broader and went far beyond the established fan base.

The true gem and the biggest reason that FF VII was such a big success though, has got to be the storytelling. Final Fantasy VII used different angles, CGI, and beautifully rendered backgrounds to an extent that made the storytelling very dynamic, dramatic, atmospheric and at times almost cinematic. Squaresoft had been toying with some of those elements in Final Fantasy VI to some extent, but it was in FF VII that they were fully realised. Compared to a game like Final Fantasy VII, the storytelling in games like Baldur's Gate and Fallout, is rather one dimensional. The isometric viewpoint and storytelling consisting mostly of text, left a lot to the player's imagination much like pen and paper roleplaying games that was the basic of those games. In that way those games seemed pretty old fashioned compared to Final Fantasy VII.

I won't claim that Final Fantasy VII is flawless, but it does deserve credit where it's due, and it WAS a very influential and revolutionary game back in it's day and it certainly was not mediocre. The cinematic storytelling that FF VII pioneered and popularized in RPGs still lives on today in western as well as eastern RPGs and in the case of JRPGs has become very much a genre stable. Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Planescape, and whatnot were all great games, and in the case of Baldur's Gate and Fallout, they did very well in their own right. I do not for one second believe that those games would have been more succesful if FF VII had not been there. Nor do I believe they would have popularized the genre to the same extent. Those games are great, but they are just missing the elements that made FF VII such a phenomenon, and no amount of marketing on anyone's part could've changed that.

Sometimes less can be more, and Final Fantasy VII was a beautiful example of that.

 

[RioDragon]

As far as I'm aware, FFVII was the first RPG to achieve a considerable mainstream popularity in the West, which is what I actually meant to say.

Sorry, Zerokku, but...


We've already mentioned FF IV, FFVI, The Dragon Quest/Warrior Series, etc. Also, D&D may be considered 'cult' status, but it WAS big enough to make lots of money for those involved and become a huge franchise, and, needless to say, without it, videogame/computer game RPGs wouldn't exist.

So, the game's actual quality had nothing to do with how well it sold? It was simply down to the fact that it was so ludicrously hyped-up beforehand? Right.

Thank you for agreeing. ^^

You do realise, there is a simple reason why FFVII was so massively hyped-up. Wanna know why? Because it was an exceptional game and it thoroughly deserved all the hype. Shocking, isn't it?

So, that means Halo was an exceptional game? I mean, it was hyped out the ass, so it must've been great! No, it was mediocre, borrowing from every FPS without doing anything significant. Ads for a game tend to blow its properties out of proportion. Back in 1997, I couldn't remember watching TV for thirty minutes without seeing at least one or two TV ads for FFVII. And what do you say about truly exceptional games that don't receive hype and just fade until they're hopefully picked back up? Advertisements and hype sell game, no matter how good or bad the game is. The more awesome they make you think it is, the more you'll blindly believe it, which is why I look at games through an objective viewpoint (i.e., ACTUALLY COMPARING IT TO SOMETHING) over subjective (believing hype for anything that looks cool and just going with it).

One of the best RPGs of all time, in my opinion, isn't even well known to this day. Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne was part of the biggest franchise in Japan, and the third best-selling after Final Fantasy and Poke'mon. When the game debuted in the U.S., being the first game in the series, nobody knew what to think about it, so few people bought it. The one thing that convinced a few people to check it out were the simple magazine ads that ran for about 2-3 months. It basically just went over the features of the game and mentioned that Devil May Cry's Dante character was included in the game as an enemy/optional party member. So, most of the sales went to DMC fans who were curious about the ad. Nowadays, people who know about SMT: Nocturne for the most part regard it as the best PS2 RPG to this day, despite the low sales caused by bad advertisement.

The developers, Atlus, even created a large amount of new copies of the game for the American market just the year before last, which were almost instantly bought by game suppliers like GameStop and the like who knew the game's rarity and quality and basically sold the game at high prices, like the price it would have had at the very day it came out. As for the game's features, it allowed you to recruit demons and angels into your party through talking to them to make contracts (unfortunately, I have to compare it to Poke'mon, though technically Poke'mon ripped the idea from this series and just made it kid-friendly), the atmosphere was, and still is, to this day, dauntingly dark and sinister, the majority of the game taking place after the world has already been destroyed.

Basically, you were just a normal teenager until suddenly the majority of the human race is dead, Tokyo is warped into a sphere-world that you're trapped inside, demons are running amok and some creepy blonde kid force-fed you a creepy demon worm which has a similar effect to the Babelfish from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, only it gives you a freaky horn on the back of your neck and turns you into a demon with glowing markings as well. To put things short, 30 minutes into the game, You've already lost. Well, if SAVING the world was what you were thinking of doing. Eventually, you learn that you were forced to be part of a prophecy in which the world is eventually recreated based on your choices throughout the story, which are mostly to determine your ethical/spiritual beliefs, but every belief you can subscribe to has a dark side. The game is much deeper than most RPGs I've played, with heavy moral and religious overtones that'll cause you to think as you play.

If you carried out a survey on the street and asked people what their favourite RPG is of all-time I think the majority of people would probably say FFVII (or name one of the Final Fantasy games). Admittedly, I've never played Chrono Trigger, so I can't really comment, but as I say, I'm sure many people would disagree with you here. In other words, you're probably in the minority with this assertion.

Ask around about ChronoTrigger. Everyone who has played it will tell you it's better unless they're graphics whores. CT is a true classic JRPG.

Graphics? Average? Are you serious, sir? Granted, Cloud may have only been comprised of ten polygons, but the battle-sequences were very visually impressive, and the pre-rendered back drops were simply stunning compared to many other games around at that time.

Basically, all that was visually impressive at the time were the cutscenes and the fighting sections. That was it. The characters themselves when you were controlling them were 1992 quality at best.

I'd beg to differ. The Materia-system was unique in my opinion. I've played my fair share of RPGs and I've never come across a system that gives the player such incredible scope for character customization and is so brilliantly addictive, yet so simple to grasp. If you ask me, no Final Fantasy (or RPG I've played for that matter) has surpassed the Materia-system in FFVII in terms of accessibility, customization, and sheer addictiveness.

Wow. You're addicted to equipping and unequipping items? You have a very sad life. It isn't even really a system, IMO, it's just 'equip this, get a spell', 'equip this, get another spell' it's not exactly a thrilling gameplay mechanic...

The cast in FFVII were average? Of course they were

Again, thank you for agreeing.

*Rolls eyes*. I'm not so sure you'll get many people agreeing with you that the cast in FFVII were "average."

I know we won't, because a lot of them are blind fans, like you. We're doing a charity here by enlightening. ^^

The characterization in FFVII was unarguably excellent, with even the minor characters, like Yuffie, being given fleshed-out backstories, which added to the overall convincingness of the mythology.

Tell me how the characterization was so great? It's a blond-headed Emo, a Mr. T lookalike, a chick with huge breasts, a flower girl, a lone wolf/fox/whatever, a country hick, the obligatory cute animal mascot, a ninja that really isn't (BELIEVE IT!), and a vampire. How much more stereotypical of a cast can you get? And, to be honest, the backstories for what few characters had them were cheesy, and, in Cloud's case, very anticlimactic. He never even made it into SOLDIER, which is kinda pathetic.

It's also a testament to the game's excellence, that despite being entirely text-based, it managed to create such believable and captivating characters. The characters in FFIX or XII were voice-acted, and more realistically-rounded in appearance, although they aren't even as half as genuinely memorable, convincing or had as much depth to their personalities as the characters in FFVII.

Ummm... IX wasn't voice-acted. X was. And X really sucked too. Also, you want a game that's mostly text-based? Try Wasteland for the Commodore 64/DOS. The graphics are rather primitive, so the details all went into the text, which were top-notch even in battle, you'd get verbose messages of how f***ed-up you're making your opponents face. And as I've said, one of the best RPGs when it comes to characterization is Planescape: Torment. Go out and get it. I don't care how, just get it and play it. The characters all have distinct personalities that come out in how they act, speak, and what they do. Also, this was the most text-heavy game ever made. If I recall, the story contains some hundred-billion words in the original english version.

Compared to most modern games it was. Which was my point.

You want hard games? Play almost any game in the Shin Megami Tensei franchise other than Devil Summoner or DemiKids, Play almost any DragonQuest game, play Lost Odyssey, Play FF II, for god's sake.

My comments need proof? It's opinion-based you idiot. That's how it is with every game. People's opinions will always be polarised over the overall quality of how good a game is, especially with a series as contentious as Final Fantasy.

You certainly word things like everything you say is fact...

Blind fanboy? Sure. Of course. I'm a just a blind "fan boy" for expressing my opinion.

When it has no thoughtful comparison to anything around at the time or before it? Yes, yes you are.

Whoever you are, sir, you are most assuredly a dumbass. Debate me properly when you can actually learn to form a logical sequence of words and have a basic understanding of logic.

Thank you for stealing our lines. Can we have them back, plz? ^^

 

[UltimaFantasy2007]

The characters in FFIX or XII were voice-acted, and more realistically-rounded in appearance, although they aren't even as half as genuinely memorable, convincing or had as much depth to their personalities as the characters in FFVII.

I can't believe you mentioned IX and XII characters in the same breath. XII had a bland cast but IX had a lot of depth and, to be honest, were one of the better band of heroes in terms of character development. Of course that's something else, though. The Materia system was far from the best within the series, let alone any RPGs.

@Lupine: I will say this, though, I never saw 1 single FFVII advert. The only time I saw it was when I came across my cousin playing it in his room. Before then I had absolutely no knowledge of the name Final Fantasy. Of course, the majority probably did get influenced by the media but I'd thought I'd put that out there because a lot may have not been so influenced by the advertising. I simply observed, had a go, and enjoyed my hands on enough to purchase the game. I do really need to look into the more obscure RPG titles, though. There are a number of titles that just are completely unbeknown to me and yet I am told are exceptional. I think I shall do some research.

Whilst I'm fine with what you're saying don't you think you're exaggerating just a bit with proving that it was nothing that special? The cast of characters were good and the way you broke them down so as to make them seem nothing special is deceptive because they were nicely developed and fleshed out. I found the whole revelation (within the Lifestream) that Cloud wasn't in SOLDIER to quite interesting. Seeing how events really unfolded was one of the better moments in the game. The characters were not bland and did have depth to them. They each had a story to tell and that was important. I'm not saying they were the best cast in a game ever, but they were great. I'm not sure if you hate the 'fanboys' so much that you're slagging the game off pretty harshly. This is what I mean by a warzone. CHIP on one side and you on the other.

You probably have better grounds because you have played a variety of RPGs at the time so, for you, people praising VII so much isn't really right. However, do you really think of it so harshly? Sometimes I get the impression you do hate it (although you don't...). I don't agree with some of the things CHIP said, either, but other things I completely agree with.