Why we wont have a 'good' final fantasy game anymore

[C i d]

NOTES:
-long post alert, but I am quite sure it's worth reading
-I suddenly felt the strange need to voice out my opinion on this topic, through a formal write-up.
-This is my first attempt in this forum to actually write a formal essay/article. I am sorry for my bad english and vocabulary.
-Some of the things I will say from now on is MY opinion. I will not restate this unless absolutely necessary.
-of course, since its my opinion, you don't have to believe any of it.
-I apologize for any factual errors.




Why We Won't Have a 'Good' Final Fantasy Game Anymore

It is indeed very ironic that the very first Final Fantasy' game that was published in 1987, was meant to be the very last of Square. It turns out that the game was very well-received, considered as one of the most successful Role Playing Game on the Nintendo Entertainment System. Many of us will hardly believe that the first title in the series was actually praised for its 'excellent' graphics in its time. Though people complained about the tedious random encounter system.

So to cut a long story short, such financial success was one of the driving forces for the company to continue the supposedly final game that they made. The graphics, stories, characters, world, setting and music continued to awe gamers as the series developed and migrated to newer, better game platforms. One can argue that the game reaches its golden years in 1997-2001. Final Fantasy VII, the very first one in the series to adopt full three-dimensional character models, became the most popular, that it was adorned with various spin-offs, sequels and prequels over the next few years.

Nostalgia and the Gap

It was also in this period of time, where a majority of people began to fall in love with the series. The fanbase keep growing and they keep wanting more games. While most of these gamers who play these games the moment they were published grew up, nostalgia had already developed in them. It is the feeling that none can replace. I dare say this particular generation were the ones who grew up with Final Fantasy VII to X, where the gap between their releases are relatively negligible.

Once most get over their fascination over one game, a new final fantasy game awaits not too long later. Because these games have such short development cycles, they are arguably similar in terms of interface, overall feel and graphics. That is probably why a majority of people deem these 4 games as almost equally good, with some exceptions here and there (i.e. the group of people who hate FFVIII, the FFVII fanboys who hold their favourite game dearly as the only good FF game)

Now the real problem starts when Final Fantasy X-2 came out. After the bittersweet yet good ending we experience in Final Fantasy X, fans were disappointed by how X-2 continued, and as many claim, ruined Final Fantasy X in various aspects. It definitely left a bitter taste on these fans who have come to love the previous games. They blame the merger of Enix and Squaresoft for the mediocre game they get after waiting for 2 years. While the merger was likely one of the factors contributing to this so-called mistake, let us think twice and ponder over the other side of the story.

Then there is that 3 years gap between X-2 and XII which worsens the situation. While a certain percentage of fans await patiently and had extremely high expectations on the next title in the series, the other group of people started to grow up and forget about their days playing and falling in love with Final Fantasy. The magic in the is simply lost. While Nostalgia did get retained (i.e. they fall in love all over again when they replay their favourite old FF games), it may be quite hard for one this group of fans to like a new one and consider it as good as the previous ones, in their opinion anyway.

So we had FFXII, and indeed, it was hated by the majority. Arguably, this game really does not deserve the loathing. It is simply the high expectations and/or fading faith on the series that some people sub-consciously have in their minds. Once one or two things were not too satisfying, e.g. the characters, story and battle system, the game got criticised as if it was a piece of garbage. Can we recall the days when people dislike so many aspects in the older FFs, but they were still loved anyway? a majority of people dislike the controversial junctioning system in FFVIII - Many find Tidus annoying. People complained about main villains who have next to zero character development, i.e. Ultimecia, Necron and probably Jenova. But yes, many still persist to love these games. So why can't the majority like FFXII?

Yes, one of the major factor, let's admit it, is the persisting nostalgia and fear of change some of us have. Because of this nostalgia, we have overly high expectations, such that a simple mistake leads to a 'bad' game. The nostalgia and gap problem, so as I name it, became even worse when development process for FFXIII was even slower. More and more fans got over final fantasy, while the faithful ones remain and expect a godly game out of XIII. I agree that I am generalising too much, but it is indeed true. Many were actually disappointed not because it was a bad game by itself. It is a bad final fantasy game.

It is hard to say that FFXIII had many good aspects. It was indeed lacking of a lot of things one should find in a final fantasy game. But as described earlier, these mistakes should not have been to hurtful if the game was released much earlier, where the hype is still rational and the 'ready to love' mindset is there. But we already have the idea how disappointing and aggravating for fans who have waited for so long just to get a game which lacks the things 'they wanted'. It was really hard for them to love this game when the first impression was already that bad. And so hatred developed, FFXIII was rubbish to a lot of people, where it could simply be a good, but not excellent FF game if it were to be released much earlier.

The idea of an FFXIII-2 will not help it either. No matter how great this game will turn out (which by the way, it has great potential to do so), it is probably too late. It is like hating on a food just because the first time you try it, it happens to be a rotten one. The fact that it has the 'XIII' as a title, turns people off, to the point that the game is condemned to be pure garbage even before it is released.

Yes, people are still excited, and waiting, for FFversusXIII. It is puzzling for me to observe how many worship this game as the lifesaver of Final Fantasy; The game that will be as great as the old ones. I can already predict that this game will likely receive the same fate, if not worse, as FFXIII. Just take a look at the overly long development phase for this game. Fans are having way too high expectations on this game, while still holding onto the nostalgic aspects that they want to appear in it. So by applying the same nostalgia and gap phenomenon we see in XII and XIII, it is easy to foresee what will happen to versus. The game has a lot of potential to be great, but I am quite sure that even a single redundant 'mistake' will turn people to label the game as a failure, yet again and again.

In the distant future, I am afraid that development period will be even longer unless they do something about it, because graphics keep improving, and with that, more time is needed to design and develop. The gap widens and the magic fades. So to summarise the argument so far, one of the reasons why a majority of us will not perceive a new FF title as a 'good' one is the mindset that every FF has to be like what we imagine them to be like, i.e. the nostalgic images we had on the older FFs. No matter how similar future FFs will be to these legendary games, it is very unlikely for nostalgia to be replaced, unless you are a newcomer fan or just an extremely faithful one at that. The painful wait we keep experiencing only cause the situation to worsen.

The Internet

This one really killed the love many had on the series. Back in the past, majority of gamers do not know how good a game actually is. They develop pure self opinion after finishing the game and then sharing their love/hate for the game with fellow peers. With the rise in Internet, most people assume how good a game is through browsing videos, reviews and screenshots released in the web. In other words, first impression no longer occurs when one presses 'new game'. It occurs when one see the various gameplay videos in YouTube, or just happen to read a biased review in gaming sites. People who have not actually played the game, easily believed that a game is not good when they have not even tried it. Some start the game with the mindset that shouts 'I want to hate this game because others hate it.' It is a completely different experience when you experience the game first hand, barely knowing what others may feel and what yourself will feel.

The internet is a place to share common interests. This includes hate clubs. People actually feel good loathing a game when others follow them suit. They enjoy bashing a particular game for sake of doing it. The internet is a perfect place for that.

The worst gaming fanbase?

So many titles, so much money gained, and of course so many fans; so many different types of fans. This is the problem. There is such a wide variety of fans with completely different opinions, it is not funny anymore. The thing is, gamers start to like the series at different points in their lifetime, at different points in Square's lifetime and at different games. Some started all the way from FFI, and has played every single game ever since. Most began from FFVII. There are also people who begin at FFXIII, or even Dissidia and Kingdom Hearts. Unfortunately, most of these groups of people, generally, have opposing viewpoints. Let me do some general summary:

People who start from FFI
They are either fans who think FFVI is the last good FF, or FFX is the last good FF. FFXI,XII XIII and FFXIV are utter rubbish to them. This is explained earlier in the nostalgia and the gap part of my discussion. Of course there are exceptions.

People who start from FFVII
Most think that FFX is the last good FF. But this group is probably more accepting towards XII and XIII because they are used to the sci-fi content. Again, there are exceptions.

People who start from spin-off titles
Most of the spin-off are action packed, e.g. Dissidia. They are likely to like FFXIII as it is relatively fast paced. These people are less accepting towards the mediocre and outdated graphics that is FFX and below.

And among these groups of people, there are smaller groups with even more differing opinions. The point is, due to the long history of the series, it is virtually impossible to satisfy everyone's needs and wants for a 'good' FF game. So as the titles increase in number and more fans join in, it is getting really difficult to make an FF game that is liked by the majority.

Is there hope?

Now I am not going to talk about how Square Enix itself played a part in this degradation. It is obvious that I should have included this point in my argument, but there is just way too many of such rant in the internet. I daresay 75% of fans lost faith in the company, and most of these 'fans' have deep grudges on them. It is interesting yet sad to see how they hate the company with a passion, when the same company gave them so much happiness in the past. While to certain groups of people, like me, almost every FF game has been consistently good, due to low expectation and/or deep love for the series, or just simple foolishness (I am still referring to myself), to a majority of people, there seems to be no hope for an actual good FF game.

Before you decide whether I am just talking rubbish all along, think whether you are completely blaming everything on Square Enix for the record of 'bad' FF games. We have ourselves to blame besides them, really, if you think about it.

Let's just, for a moment, appreciate the company as it is and reflect upon ourselves.

 

[Laguna Loire]

The last good final fantasy game was Dissidia 012

MOD EDIT: Laguna Loire-Can you please expand on your post a bit more because this would be considered a spammy post in a post count section. Thank you.

 

[VanillesHope-FXIII]

Sorry i dont recall any *Bad* FF, i like all the ones i played, 8 being my favorite, but i do get your point, people find hate out of dissapointment, they expect so much, or too little. ( it makes sense to me ^^ )

 

[Roland_Deschain]

Well As you know I have my own researched theory about why the games are CHANGING... would not really call it BAD, because its all a matter of opinion.

As I have previously discussed and posted regarding the change of final fantasy direction, it has to do with a change in the demographic target towards the games. Primarily they are leaving the western ideals for the game in the dust while targeted more to the asian demographic.

I will not go into details because I have sort of in other places. However after doing marketing research on the matter i find it damn near conclusive that the shift in wealth from the east coupled with the greater number of gamers and intensely larger population has made SE reconsider how they build there games. In the east they love these newer games like 12 and 13 for the most part intensely more then westerners do (including myself). They love the flashy story like video play along with the increased simplicity of some aspects (atm I live in the east). I think it is only common sense that we will expect demands to shift from where profit once was greatest (keeping in mind most eastern countries did not have the luxuries of the ps1 games) to where profit now potentially CAN be greatest. It makes their job a lot easier because it is hard to make a full scale graphically enhanced game that also features the open world design. At the same time it also provides them with a larger demographic then they had, and rising.

Anyway that is my theory. Who knows, after doing some intense research on this subject you might see my point of view.

 

[Martel]

It is extremely hard to appreciate Square Enix when they've been so damn abusive when it comes to their latest releases. Their other titles aside - which, by the way, are also shit - Square Enix have lost the ability to make innovative, good quality titles.

I'm one of the few people who happens to think Final Fantasy XII is the best one, because it was a return to form after FFX (which seemed to me to take a step backwards by being a pure turn-based game) and then some: it delivered an interesting and unique story that wasn't just a rehashed "evil villain wants to destroy world, insert love plot here, good guys win, the end" affair that Square Enix had been delivering since FFVII, and the battle system actually evolved (sure, we've had real-time systems before, but for Square Enix this was something totally different) beyond the standard turn-based/ATB (which in my opinion is a half-arsed attempt to cross two completely different modes of combat) crap they'd been giving us for the last few years. It tried something completely different in focusing on the world instead of the same half-arsed characters, and if they hadn't of lost their balls and kept Basch as the main character, it would have been perfect. It looked nice for it's time, yes, but it lost out on nothing by doing so.

No, the problem started (or, rather, it came to light) with the current generation of consoles, with FFXIII. In that huge gap between FFXII and FFXIII, games became more about graphics than anything else, and rather than deliver a quality experience, Square Enix slapped together a half-arsed title that took several giant leaps backward and only one step forward, and that was with graphics. We had a cheap version of FFX's Sphere Grid and the same buggered up ATB system we had in the PS1 era to constitute the "gameplay" and it was, in short, horrific. FFXIII was completely different from FFXII in that is tried to be an interactive movie, and not a proper video game. It wasn't fast-paced or anything like that. It was linear, dull and predictable, reminiscent of the earlier FF games, but without the addicting, tough-as-fuck gameplay and engrossing story that made them so popular. It wasn't the leap forward it should have been. The PS3 and 360 had so much more potential than the PS2, and they wasted all of it except for the graphics, which don't make a video game good, no matter what the media say. If they did, there would be no market for handhelds at all. Simple as that.

Yes, I've had hours of enjoyment out of Final Fantasy games in the past, and I'll give credit where it is due. But Square Enix can not ride their past accomplishments forever, and I'm not going to take the sheer bullcrap they've been dishing out with good grace when I KNOW that they're capable of producing better, and if they're not, then they bloody well should be. I'm not going to say "Oh, FFXIII is fucking shit, but since FFXII wasn't, I'll forgive them for it." because that isn't how it works. You can't rely on past accomplishments; you need to keep up a consistent standard in video games, or you become a shit company...as is the case with Square Enix.

Square Enix, with Final Fantasy, have started relying solely on the name to sell the game, and this was definetely not the case in the past. As with almost every other video game company, it has become about the money, and the media adore pretty graphics. So the public adore pretty graphics. So that is all we get, and fuck everything else. Square Enix's attitude is undeniably this; there have been enough interviews with developers talking about graphics. How often do they talk about the gameplay as a driving factor in development, as they did in the old days? Once in a blue moon.

There won't be another good Final Fantasy game because Square Enix have, simply put, lost it. They are concerned entirely with graphics and nothing else, and graphics are a very minor part of the experience. This is what the media want, yes, but not necessarily what all of the fans want. If Square Enix actually paid attention to their fans, I'd be willing to bet they'd come out with something else entirely instead of the crap we got with FFXIII.

Perhaps this is only true for those of us who remember the old FF games (I really started with FFVIII, only playing the earlier FF games later on) and grew up with a very different type of game. I'm a cynic, I'm not easily impressed - any moron can make something pretty, but it takes someone with skill to make something truly great, so I tend to ignore graphics entirely when I form my opinion - and FF, like every other series, isn't immune to the focus of style over substance that developers have, so they can impress the media and thereby generate more sales, because the general public are influenced by the media - more publicity = more profit. For some of us, I think this is why there will be another FF games, because it is obvious that in glamouring it up, Square Enix neglected to actually put a game within their game, as was the case with FFXIII.

Times and taste change, yes, but I'd blame the media for this more than I would the gaming community. The media are the ones who give things high scores just because they have a particular label attached to them, and praise the graphics, insisting that a game is somehow less if it isn't as pretty as it possibly can be. This "if it's an FF game, it must be good" sort of mindset has been around for ages, and mindsets don't just change with a single title, at least not en masse. We have expectations based on past accomplishments; hopefully if Square Enix keep producing shit games, those expectations will vanish and they'll start making the sales they deserve to make until they make a proper video game, but I highly doubt it. Only once graphics have reached a point where they can no longer advance will there be another good FF game, because only then will Square Enix have to focus on gameplay to impress.

Speaking for myself, I refuse to cut Square Enix any slack until I see some improvement in gameplay, and less of a focus on the graphics of a game. I want to see the kind of change in gameplay that FFXII provided. I'm not impressed by pretty pictures.

 

[CassinoChips]

Confirmation bias is the main reason, in my opinion, which I think is something the OP touched on. People have already made up their mind that anything S-E makes is going to be the worst game since the last game S-E put out, and there's really no objective way to convince them otherwise. So it just becomes a recursive loop of them crying and moaning about perceived slights done to them by a company which doesn't actually owe them anything in the first place.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

Confirmation bias is the main reason, in my opinion, which I think is something the OP touched on. People have already made up their mind that anything S-E makes is going to be the worst game since the last game S-E put out, and there's really no objective way to convince them otherwise. So it just becomes a recursive loop of them crying and moaning about perceived slights done to them by a company which doesn't actually owe them anything in the first place.

I am just curious Jess, do you see any sense once so ever in my posted theory about the change? I mean honestly critics aside (which were more positive in the east anyhow) people in the east seem to like this new style of gaming so much more. And like I said these people do not have the comparison from the old games to tarnish their already satisfied opinions, which just makes switching demographics even easier. I mean in China people are still buying and selling XIII everywhere, there is only the problem of piration slowing those numbers down.

 

[One-Winged Moogle]

Lack of effort or over-innovation?

I was watching a video the other day about how much Japenese gaming was dying out west (and a lot of industry heads there were agreeing that it is hurting), largely because it doesn't change enough as western games do, because the Japanese market doesn't want/need such change. As an example, one of my favourite series in Dynasty Warriors, gets torn apart by criticis out west but is well-liked in Japan, in both cases, because nothing changes in the core gameplay.

Then you have Square-Enix, which has probably changed the most in their part 2 games in an effort to appease the masses, IMO. XII a large departure from anything seen in FF with its gameplay, XIII a departure from a lot of the superficial padding aspects present in most RPG's. And the two games got slammed for it. People keep calling for Square to be more like "the old games". But then how long can they do that before people complain that Square "just keeps making the same game over and over again", as happens with a number of other Japenese titles when reviewed out west?

As a seeming exception, it seems to me even the western FF fanbase wants Square-enix to go to the past and stay there, at least as far as the core of the game is concerned. But I'm not sure they're ever going to do that.

This "if it's an FF game, it must be good" sort of mindset has been around for ages, and mindsets don't just change with a single title, at least not en masse

I'm not sure this is necessarily true. Wasn't FXIV pretty much universally panned? And I don't see what a non-sold out reviewer has to gain from praising a FF game more than it deserves. If it's popular and people like it, it means more angry people which means more hit. If people don't like it, well, people agreeing with the reviewer isn't a bad thing. And in a controversial game, it doesn't matter much which way they lean.

 

[CassinoChips]

I am just curious Jess, do you see any sense once so ever in my posted theory about the change? I mean honestly critics aside (which were more positive in the east anyhow) people in the east seem to like this new style of gaming so much more. And like I said these people do not have the comparison from the old games to tarnish their already satisfied opinions, which just makes switching demographics even easier. I mean in China people are still buying and selling XIII everywhere, there is only the problem of piration slowing those numbers down.

It's logical, certainly, and has a sound premise. It does seem kind of strange that "eastern" fans are more appreciative of "westernized" RPGs though. S-E may be that far-thinking, but I think also that a large majority of it is that they needed a new direction, so they brought in new designers/producers/etc. which necessarily took the games in different directions. That's always going to create some friction. I, for one, really enjoyed XII, but then I didn't come into it with any pre-conceived notions as to what a FF game had to be.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

It's logical, certainly, and has a sound premise. It does seem kind of strange that "eastern" fans are more appreciative of "westernized" RPGs though. S-E may be that far-thinking, but I think also that a large majority of it is that they needed a new direction, so they brought in new designers/producers/etc. which necessarily took the games in different directions. That's always going to create some friction. I, for one, really enjoyed XII, but then I didn't come into it with any pre-conceived notions as to what a FF game had to be.

This is a good point you bring up about the Eastern fans being a fan of western RPG's.

After consideration I have come to the conclusion that at the time Japan starting creating these games, their countrys general common wealth was not strong enough it supply a vast profit from their own country without the inclusion of the western audience, along with their Eastern neighbors. However now the East is rising so rapidly in wealth and technology that I think they are investing in the future for their own profit.

However as time goes by we can see with our own eyes (if we try) that the games have went from western asian hybrid design....to more and more strict asian design. I mean the costumes and appearances are changing, no longer are they incoorperating so many western favorites as far as worlds and outfits and spells. Now its almost changing into mechanical gameplay with schoolgirl outfits

Also this aspect explains why they would not rush into the future games as fast, and are spacing it farther apart between each game. Every year that they wait is more growth and continued piration control in the East. Not to mention that so many of these fans are newly born fans who are not holding their breath for the next games, like many of us westerners are.

 

[Ichigo]

The main problem for the company which is readily apparent with no other game than FFXIII is that their penchant for doing things a little similar but entirely different for each game leads to a struggle in what the fans really want causing confusion and both ends and the end resulting in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

FFXII (my personal favorite) was their reach out to the old guys at heart, with an intelligent story, and a definite substance over style approach. Guess what that was met with? A rabid crowd of the new generation wailing their hearts out about "This isn't a Final Fantasy game!". So, they take it back to the drawing board. After a long time and a big melting pot of ideas, we get Final Fantasy XIII.

Now guess what? Everyone is having a say in the whining now! In their attempt to try and please old crowd, they got bitched at. So they thought maybe catering to the new scene would help out? Bitched at.

If there's one piece of advice I could give to them it'd be, do not listen to your fanbase. They moan about everything and don't know what they want. Games like FFV, FFVI, and FFIX came from them doing what they wanted to do with a clear vision.

Do I believe in the company that gave me games like FFXII? Hell yeah, you don't just learn how to make a good game then have that ability disappear. The fundamental aspects are already there, they just need to buckle down and make the Final Fantasy they want to make instead of listening to what everyone and their mother has to say on it.

 

[Tucker]

I do agree with much of what you say.
But to me, I think everything depends on Versus. There are so many high expectations for this game.
SE has heard our complaints. We don't want it too linear, we want likable characters with depth, etc.
So if Versus is as good as the trailers make it to be, I will still have confidence in SE. If it turns out to be sucky as well, I must agree and say they are lost.

 

[C i d]

Thanks guys for the response. Most of you actually pretty much summarise the reason why square Enix played a large part in this situation,which I intentionally did not include in my write-up. I can't write much now, since I'm typing on my phone. Will come back later, perhaps.

 

[Naoto Shirogane]

I wonder when people will realise that Squaresoft made FFX-2 not squeenix.
But thats mainly because after the shit that Squeenix threw down from XII-XIII-2 people would much rather belive that X-2 was Squeenix made.

in short: Sqauresoft fucked up X-2. thats when it all went down. squaresoft and it's Failure.

 

[Starships]

tried to be an interactive movie, and not a proper video game. but without the addicting, tough-as-fuck gameplay and engrossing story that made them so popular. they wasted all of it except for the graphics, which don't make a video game good, no matter what the media say.

has become about the money, and the media adore pretty graphics. So the public adore pretty graphics. So that is all we get, and fuck everything else. Square Enix's attitude is undeniably this; there have been enough interviews with developers talking about graphics. How often do they talk about the gameplay as a driving factor in development, as they did in the old days? Once in a blue moon.

There won't be another good Final Fantasy game because Square Enix have, simply put, lost it. They are concerned entirely with graphics and nothing else, and graphics are a very minor part of the experience. This is what the media want, yes, but not necessarily what all of the fans want. If Square Enix actually paid attention to their fans, I'd be willing to bet they'd come out with something else entirely instead of the crap we got with FFXIII.

I'm not impressed by pretty pictures.

I have to agree with everything said here by Kainé. Fans do not hate FF13, because it took so long to come out. Fans hate it, because the only thing SE focused on was the look and style of the game, pretty graphics.The gameplay within FF13 is terrible and flat out lazy. The first 20 minutes is one straight line, and it's straighter than a piece of string. What happens in the first 20 minutes of FF X ? You're introduced to Tidus and the world of dream Zanakand, you get to meet Tidus's sporting fans, time freezes and a strange purple hooded child appears, then heavy music plays and you see the game of blizball and a mysterious man wearing red and wears sunglasses appears, who is he ? Is he the game's villian ? Then all of a sudden, a strange tidal wave appears and wipes out the whole city. Then Tidus appears in the middle of nowhere, in a empty temple, and people who speak a different language appear, and one comes along to help Tidus in battle.

It's exciting, mysterious, adds questions, makes you curious, and it makes the game worth playing.
What's with the purple hooded kid ? What is Auron doing there ? Who are these strange people who speak a mixture of what sounds Japanese, German and English ?
FF13 however, all you do is watch random cutscences and watch Snow and his gang shoot bad guys. It's like waving your keys in front of your bird and saying " Look at the pretty graphics, look at the pretty graphics !!

FF13 is hated and loathed by fans because SE only hoped that we'll be OMG GRAPHICS, instead of desiring for a decent story, character development, and battle system that felt developed. FF10-2 is hated by fans, because all it is fan service, lame cheesy jokes, and J-pop music. FF XII is hated by fans, because it felt like more of a WoW online game than Final Fantasy, and Vaan is a annoying and obnoxious main lead.

Not because of the length of time it took for it come out. If FF13 came out in 2008 instead of 2010, it still would been hated because it lacks the important formats that holds a Final Fantasy together like glue.

However I do think that there will be a good Final Fantasy, if SE starts to listen to it's fans, and they start to notice that graphics are only about 12 % important, and that FF fans would rather play a novel than play a movie. Final Fantasy type- 0 has potential to shine, and we're not all hoping and praying for Versus to shine, imo Versus looks as dull as grass growing.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

Not because of the length of time it took for it come out. If FF13 came out in 2008 instead of 2010, it still would been hated because it lacks the important formats that holds a Final Fantasy together like glue.

On one hand I agree with this but on the other hand its hard to tell. I mean if it would have come earlier I think many people would have hated it "less". They would just cringe and say oh well while they waited for the next arrival instead of detesting it as much as they did. However its hard to tell.

Its kind of like if I order dinner at a resturaunt and it takes forever... even if the food is great I will probably not admit to it just because I am pissed off from waiting.

 

[ribbit]

I'm seeing a lot of "Westerners love FFXIII because it has shiny graphics etc". It was the Japanese that loved it the most :\ Famitsu rated it best game ever and Dengeki wanted to give it a rating of 120/100. Did the English version just suck or are they just crazy?

SE doesn't need to listen to their fans as Ichigo stated. FFXII was an amazing game. Anyone who thinks it isn't needs to go back and play through it with a more intelligent mindset. Sure, Vaan and Penelo are pointless characters, but that shouldn't distract from the fact that the story is one of the best in FF and their significance to the story is quickly diminished by the latter half of the game.

They CAN make a good game, and I'm sure Versus and Type-0 will be good. But when people whined about XII, they gave us XIII hoping it would appeal to the fans who are overly obsessed with Final Fantasy VII "ohoho, they like VII so we'll give them Lightning! It's like Cloud, get it? And she's quiet and practically emo! "

SE utterly bombed with FFXIV. That's apparent. Don't lose faith in the company that has created many great games in the past just because they've released two piles of crap. XIII-2 will most likely not redeem them, but who knows. It'll hopefully be better than XIII.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

I'm seeing a lot of "Westerners love FFXIII because it has shiny graphics etc". It was the Japanese that loved it the most :\ Famitsu rated it best game ever and Dengeki wanted to give it a rating of 120/100. Did the English version just suck or are they just crazy?


Actually thats what I said... and I said the east loved it for this. This goes directly hand in hand with the whole theory I am representing in this thread. You should take a look at it in more detail, and follow up with marketing research on what funds and prfits are rising from other countries besides the west. After that you must do research on more strict piracy laws that are being forced into the biggest countries in the east, because until now they just look away while the common wealth buys pirated games over copyright game 8:1

P.S. I played XIII in japanese with english subtitles and I have to admit the voice acting was pretty amazing compared to English

 

[Hera Ledro]

A lot of the hate for FF games is misplaced, I agree. Fans want companies (e.g. Square Enix) to make games that are just as good as previous installments, which to them means that they should simply be reworked versions of those installments. Like Final Fantasy VII? Then what they want is a re-tooled version of the Materia system that still effectively acts like the original but with some new possibilities - say more than two links or a quintuple growth or what have you. Or perhaps they want a Sephiroth Expy (god help us all...), or a character who is wrapped up in his inner turmoil for an entire story.

The thing is that a lot of fans have trouble identifying exactly what is good about Final Fantasy games; all they know is that if something doesn't feel right in a new game then they automatically label it false. It's like putting a baseball kid into a game of soccer; he'll hate it because he doesn't know much about it and doesn't have any skills. But if you make him practice and actually get involved, then he may just like it; if not then you know for a fact that it just doesn't mesh well with him. But he, like many FF critics, is merely hating because he does not wish to give the game a try.

There are obvious things that people can identify as good - the music from VII and IX are considered to be amongst the most beautiful and popular soundtracks in the fanbase, as far as I'm aware - but most of it is just given a vague label. Characters, people say; setting. Plot. Okay, but what about them? Is it the depth of the characters, the alternate-universe setting, the complex plot? Is it juxtaposition of themes that inspire thought, or perhaps a linear story that is easy to follow along with?

These are the problems that fans have trouble identifying in the FF series, and because of this are not readily equipped to understand reasons for change. I'm not going to say I liked XIII - I hated the system and the hallway play style - but it was a step in a different direction that Square felt could be profitable. They weren't trying to insult the gamers, they were trying to make something new. The fact that it flopped is due to a combination of two things, in my opinion: prejudice, due to the aforementioned nostalgia of previous titles, and an honest-to-goodness bad idea. This is just one of the games, though, that flop due to taking turns in unpopular directions.

So my premise (or hypothesis or thesis or w/e) is that Square Enix cannot make new FF games that are good because fans and critics are rarely willing to suspend their desire for nostalgia and old-school quality in order to try the game as something other than what they want it to be. Fans and critics 'want something new', but when something new comes out they trash it because it does not establish a connection to the old. Let us not forget that humans are creatures of tradition; we do not like gross amounts of change, and the speed at which Square-Enix is changing is remarkably fast. Fans and critics do not want to change that fast, so they resist the transition.

That is, in my opinion, why we cannot have another good game. For me it's simply a dislike of the systems and stories that they've been trying to tell. For a lot of fans, though, it's a resistance to rapid change.

SE doesn't need to listen to their fans as Ichigo stated. FFXII was an amazing game. Anyone who thinks it isn't needs to go back and play through it with a more intelligent mindset. Sure, Vaan and Penelo are pointless characters, but that shouldn't distract from the fact that the story is one of the best in FF and their significance to the story is quickly diminished by the latter half of the game.

I never played the game, so I can't give an opinion on it, but others who have played it are entitled to their opinions. They can play with an 'intelligent mindset' and still dislike it; that's simply called having preferences and different tastes.

 

[Stoic Hero]

I agree with most everything you posted, and I really like how you touched on XII. Too many people talk shit about XII, and for what? If you step back and examine XII with an objective outlook, you'd really notice that it's a damn good game. Seriously, what can you say against it?

I've heard "the characters are bland." Okay, Vaan. But I would argue to the death that Balthier is the BEST character that Square has ever produced. Not to mention Ashe, who's not your average princess, Basch, an amazing father/role-model figure, and a slew of other interesting characters, such as Larsa. You can't make a legitimate point saying that ALL of the characters in XII are bland, and it's very easy to play with only the ones you like. At the very least, they aren't annoying like, say, Vanille.

Another thing people complain about with XII is the battle system, saying it's too easy or contrived or it "plays itself." This is not true. XII's battle system was clever, it was disguised as an action game (no battle scenes, no intense battle music) but it still played like a turn-based game. It's exactly the same battle system you've been playing since day one, just without the transition. It was seamless. Not to mention the awesome gambits you could assign to your teammates. And if you hated gambits, because it "played itself," then don't fucking use them. You don't have to. You can control EVERYTHING yourself. Just like the old games. So there's really no excuse at all to dislike the battle system, if you liked the ones of the past.

The last thing people complain about is the story. They assign words like "boring" to the game's story, which is way too harsh. XII is a very mature game. It's not all let's save the world!!!! LKOFIOIEFJ. It's more focused on the world. The environment. The politics. If you take the time to talk to all the NPCs, you really feel a part of the world and get sucked in to the wonderful story. I can understand why the "usual" Final Fantasy crowd wouldn't like it, though, because they're so used to pretty boys with big swords and quiet dispositions. XII didn't have that. But it had so much more, if you're willing to put aside what you think a "good" Final Fantasy game is like.

Really, if you take "Final Fantasy" out of the title, XII is just a damn fine game. One of my favorites of all time.

XIII, on the other hand, tried to take what XII did but added the battle scene transition for some stupid reason and took all control away from the player, gambi-er, paradigms aside. The battle system was not its strong suit. The story was fine, but it was the way it was presented that was terrible. Mainly, running through corridor after corridor and fighting battle after battle after battle. 25 hours in, I was rather bored to tears. And I wanted to like the game so bad, and to some extent, I do like it, but it wasn't nearly as commendable as any of the past Final Fantasies, if only because it didn't really revolutionize anything. They just made a game that was really similar to the past ones, but was worse in just about every possible way. It took the linear areas of X, but didn't factor in the towns, mini games, or airship travel. It took the battle system from XII, and "casualized" it. It took the CGI cutscenes from VII-on and amped them up to the max. All in all, it didn't give us anything spectacular, just kind of a subpar ode to the past. I still kind of like it, though, and I'll admit it isn't the worst thing to happen to gaming. It IS the worst thing to happen to Final Fantasy, though, just because all the other games are so damn good! The bar is too high now, lol.