Aerith and her Faith

[The Witch]

Look, you have to take into account that Aerith intentionally kneels in prayer so angels can aide her... showing she has faith religiously.

What would be the point in angels coming to her side after she prays if she wasn't praying to a God for that to happen? If her faith wasn't in a Christian/Catholic God, then where did the Roman-Catholic angels come from? Why were they thrown into the game?

If there weren't religions in the world of FFVII, why make churches that are made for followers of Christ? why show temples for Buddhists? Why show a woman praying on her knees so angels can help her? Why even show angels, in the first place?

There are religions in the game, Wutai happens to be Buddhist like many Asian countries. And Aerith visits a Church, prays for angels--because she's a Christian.

 

[The Illusive Man]

Look, you have to take into account that Aerith intentionally kneels in prayer so angels can aide her... showing she has faith religiously.

What would be the point in angels coming to her side after she prays if she wasn't praying to a God for that to happen? If her faith wasn't in a Christian/Catholic God, then where did the Roman-Catholic angels come from? Why were they thrown into the game?

If there weren't religions in the world of FFVII, why make churches that are made for followers of Christ? why show temples for Buddhists? Why show a woman praying on her knees so angels can help her? Why even show angels, in the first place?

There are religions in the game, Wutai happens to be Buddhist like many Asian countries. And Aerith visits a Church, prays for angels--because she's a Christian.

Pagans kneel to pray, they kneel before effagies of there gods or within nature so they can be closer to there deitys its not just something that is done in Christianity.

the one and ONLY refrence of any sort of Angel in that game is all on Sephiroth, as fair as Aerith is concerned theres is not a single uttering of God, Jesus, any kind of Saint (Christianity if you want it is in FF tactics for definate) or anything to do with Angels surrounding her, its all to do with the planet and nature, thus putting her clearly on the line of Paganistic Druid.

To further add to my argument:

There also also several mentionings of ancestors (ancients or Cetra whichever you wish to call them) as well as returning to the planet, this is something widely believed in paganism, when a living being passes on, they return to the planet giving back the lifeforce that was given to them, ancestor worship was also highly common is Celtic and Norse relgions, Dag'da being one example, a hero that lived thousands of years ago and became a patron deity of celtic faith through his heroic actions.

 

[Bambi]

Look, you have to take into account that Aerith intentionally kneels in prayer so angels can aide her... showing she has faith religiously.

What would be the point in angels coming to her side after she prays if she wasn't praying to a God for that to happen? If her faith wasn't in a Christian/Catholic God, then where did the Roman-Catholic angels come from? Why were they thrown into the game?

If there weren't religions in the world of FFVII, why make churches that are made for followers of Christ? why show temples for Buddhists? Why show a woman praying on her knees so angels can help her? Why even show angels, in the first place?

There are religions in the game, Wutai happens to be Buddhist like many Asian countries. And Aerith visits a Church, prays for angels--because she's a Christian.

Its never once stated in the game. Is it in the Ultimania?

Its purely VISUAL. Unless STATED int he game, this is just your OPINION. Alot of things in this game are left to our own interpretation, I mean look at the ending before the spin offs

You can not say she is categorically Christian when it does not mention god or jesus once

in my OPINION, it's purely visual, a mish mash of all religions/beliefs, some may be more dominant than others, but to say she is Christian is just your opinion

there are churches in DQ8. They go in there to pray to a godess, they have nuns and priests. does that make them christian? no, they are just visual because it is what we tend to be familiar with when it comes to faith and shit

and as someone pointed out, there was no cross on or in aeriths church.

 

[VinnieJones]

Whilst I appreciate you quoting my posts, I would rather you comment on all my points rather than pick holes. I'm doing all I can to try and argue with every one of your points (and stating that I don't have an opinion on the ones I don't really know), I just find it extremely frustrating how you can ignore many of my points that could prove to be significant in proving you wrong. I am sure I'm not the only one here with this opinion.

Now...

the Church Aerith loves to live in

Also, Aerith doesn't just "visit" the church, she loves it there.

first and foremost you HAVE to understand that she doesn't live there. She has a perfectly good house with her adopted mom and only visits the church.

how does loving to be in a place mean you live there? I love to be on these forums but I don't live here, I simply visit them.

Aerith obviously knows what she's doing when she prays, which means she intentionally prays so that the angels will help her

Rosa in FFIV and Bannan of FFVI have skills called 'pray', and it cures your allies. Praying in FF causes many wonderous things to happen, but does God heal your HP? do angels in Christianity give you invincibility and heal you HP and MP? they are completely different to angels in our world (though they are imaginary beings) and hence have no relation, which may mean that God does not play part in this at all.

Jewish people pray to God and Angels

which raises my point of the church having a Menorah-like object. Maybe she's Jewish.

See, the church in VII, is called a Church

I would like to point out, as a Japanese person, that the term used in this case (Kyoukai) can translate to church, but we use Kyoukai to represent any religious building; it stands for place (kai) of teaching (kyou). Hence the translators state that it's a church, but in fact it could be anything. And as we all know the translations in VII were awful, so who knows.

They have the words, damn, hell, and holy, they have churches, angels, and prayers--that's more than enough proof to show religions(if not only Christianity) in the world of FFVII.

no, it simply states that these words were of knowledge within the people in the real world; in this case the script writers. These people know about these words so just plugged them into the script of an imaginery world. If they wanted us to believe that Christianity is in the game then they would've said so, but no one thus far has officially confirmed it.

I suppose my main point is, common sense in this world and the FFVII world do not coincide.

there's Buddhist statues everywhere

but not one of Buddha himself. anyone without religious knowledge can build human statues.


I got a little lazy and lost most of my train of thought towards the end, so feel free to point things out.

 

[Rydia]

The thing is, FFVII takes place in an alternate world where Christianity or Jesus Christ does not exist. The church and the christian imagery are there just for imagery and symbolism. It was probably thrown in to look exotic. Aerith is also meant to be a pure character. Churches, angels, praying ect can all represent purity. What she does is based on the christian religion, not that she is a christian.

Aerith also talks about returning to the life stream. That is not a christian belief. We also learn that the planet was given life by the Centra. Also not a Christian belief. Aerith uses materia to cast magic, which magic I believe is frowned upon in the christian religion. She also doesn't attend sunday services. If she has a religion, it is not one that exists in our world.

And Aerith being a christian would be very out of place in the game. When did Jesus live on this planet?

 

[The Witch]

The thing is, FFVII takes place in an alternate world where Christianity or Jesus Christ does not exist. The church and the christian imagery are there just for imagery and symbolism. It was probably thrown in to look exotic. Aerith is also meant to be a pure character. Churches, angels, praying ect can all represent purity. What she does is based on the christian religion, not that she is a christian.

If it didn't exist there, why is it in the game? To symbolize... what, exactly?

Aerith also talks about returning to the life stream. That is not a christian belief. We also learn that the planet was given life by the Centra. Also not a Christian belief. Aerith uses materia to cast magic, which magic I believe is frowned upon in the christian religion. She also doesn't attend sunday services.

I don't attend Sunday services in a literal church but I'm still a Christian. And of course there's magic used in the game and science-fiction-type happenings, it's a Fantasy. Doesn't mean religion didn't take part in the game.

And Aerith being a christian would be very out of place in the game. When did Jesus live on this planet?

The same time, seeing how FFVII takes place in the same timeline we live in today. You know Cloud was born in 1986, so why can't Jesus have existed?

first and foremost you HAVE to understand that she doesn't live there. She has a perfectly good house with her adopted mom and only visits the church.

how does loving to be in a place mean you live there? I love to be on these forums but I don't live here, I simply visit them.

Yes... o_0 she doesn't live there. But her spirit is heavily linked to the church and she said she loves to go there.

which raises my point of the church having a Menorah-like object. Maybe she's Jewish.

Maybe. But that doesn't look like it to me.

I would like to point out, as a Japanese person, that the term used in this case (Kyoukai) can translate to church, but we use Kyoukai to represent any religious building; it stands for place (kai) of teaching (kyou). Hence the translators state that it's a church, but in fact it could be anything. And as we all know the translations in VII were awful, so who knows.

That said, you can't deny the structure of the building and how Aerith acts.

in my OPINION, it's purely visual, a mish mash of all religions/beliefs, some may be more dominant than others, but to say she is Christian is just your opinion

I do believe VII portraying many religions, from the facts of how Aerith acts, what she does, and what her most loved place is--Christianity/Catholicism seems to be pretty heavy in Aerith's life.

 

[The Illusive Man]

I noticed you seem to be only picking topic tidbits you can argue against, yet you seem to be showing an unwillingness to even consider she could be anything other than christian when all circumstantial evidence points to the fact she isnt Christian at all but either a relgion based on Druids or White Witches of paganism, or a completely made up relgion made by taking several aspects of different relgions and putting them together.

Afterall she is a CASTER, thus being completely frowned on by all Christianic beliefs, in the middle ages, people were burned at the stake for practicing anything to do with magic, and even today any clergyman to be found doing anything against Christianic beliefs can be not only removed from there position, but also Excommunicated from the faith.

 

[The Witch]

I noticed you seem to be only picking topic tidbits you can argue against, yet you seem to be showing an unwillingness to even consider she could be anything other than christian when all circumstantial evidence points to the fact she isnt Christian at all but either a relgion based on Druids or White Witches of paganism, or a completely made up relgion made by taking several aspects of different relgions and putting them together.

What are you talking about? I've answered everything I could, dude. Damn, calm down.

And I said above she could possibly be of Jewish faith, but she lacks the whole synagogue-thing.

She prays to a God so angels can help her--these angels can either be Catholic/Christian/Jewish--she visits a church, that looks identical to real churches, she uses a limit break with the word Gospel(by the way, that's one big coincidence)

now, if she were Jewish she'd be in a synagogue not a church.

Now answer me this, if there were no religions in the game, if they didn't want to symbolize Christianity in the game enough to where the player could see they were referencing to it, what would be the point in putting it in the game at all?

The fact that the developers put so much-coincidental-facts in the game, proves they wanted players to get the vibe that they were hinting at a religion. They didn't just put it in there just to do it, they did it for a reason.

 

[Rydia]

If Cloud was born in 1986 and the game was released in 1997, he couldn't possibly be 21. He would only be 11 year old. Is that something that came out of the compilation?

They do it because it is what we are familur with. Churches symbolize purity and what is good. Christian imagery is also mystical to some people, something that Aerith was supposed to be. Not that she was supposed to be a christian. Aerith also prays to the planet, which are pagan beliefs. Is she pagan? The lifestream also hints at reincarnation (river of life that circles and gives life to the planet, people return to it when they die), also not a christian belief.

She wasn't in a synagogue because there was no synagogue present. If flower were growing in a building that looked like a synagogue, a temple, a mosque, Aerith probably would have spent her time there too.

In FFX, Yuna goes into temples to get aeons. Does that make her buddhist, Shinto, or any other religion that exists in our world? No, she follows the faith of Yu Yevon. Aerith follows the belief that the life stream gives life to the planet and people return to it when they die. And she also follows that the centra originally gave life to the earth. Where on earth would Jesus come in?

 

[The Illusive Man]

What are you talking about? I've answered everything I could, dude. Damn, calm down.

And I said above she could possibly be of Jewish faith, but she lacks the whole synagogue-thing.

She prays to a God so angels can help her--these angels can either be Catholic/Christian/Jewish--she visits a church, that looks identical to real churches, she uses a limit break with the word Gospel(by the way, that's one big coincidence)

now, if she were Jewish she'd be in a synagogue not a church.

Now answer me this, if there were no religions in the game, if they didn't want to symbolize Christianity in the game enough to where the player could see they were referencing to it, what would be the point in putting it in the game at all?

The fact that the developers put so much-coincidental-facts in the game, proves they wanted players to get the vibe that they were hinting at a religion. They didn't just put it in there just to do it, they did it for a reason.

I'm actually quite calm thankyou.

Square are known widely to often include several aspects from relgious beliefs in there products, NOT just Christianity.

one of the strongest references of Christianity ever to appear in a main title FF game recieved a lot of critics, the divine comedy style battle to Kefka at the end of FF VI, Square took a thrashing from several of the Christian leaders for depicting Kefka in the position of God and using images that could be depicted as Mary and baby Jesus, in some countries the game was nearly even banned.

Again Aerith DOES NOT, I REPEAT DOES NOT pray to any Angel! She Prays to the planet! HECK the characters EVEN say that she Prayed to the planet and the planet answered her call, at NO point is an Angel EVER mentioned during the dialog.

There are only one set of relgious types that pray to the planet, or mother nature, those that follow paganistic beliefs, and the Church can easily be taken as a reference to some of the first pagans on the european continent, The Goths (the countrymen, not the lifestyle) afterall the Church is built in a Gothic style and has no Cross representation at all.

Gospel again, is not just a word used by Christians, Gospel is often a word Pagans used to cover up there Grimoire as it was illegal to take away a persons Gospel or bible, this helped them keep there rituals secret from the inquisition.

Ancestors are also worshipped heavily by paganists, as they are in several buddist beliefs, Samurai and the Norse would often dedicate a fight to the name of a Ancestor in the belief they would assist them in battle, granting them superhuman strength.

Like i said, Christianity HAS been present in FF games before, Final Fantasy Tactics has it featured as its main relgion, and FFVI had the divine comedy, but it isnt present in every single FF game, and FFVII is one where it isnt present at all.

 

[Gaige]

To be honest, I can only summarize what others have said and say that while it takes from Christian text and teachings, Aerith has aspects of her person that don't make her a Chrisitan. She worships the Planet and the Lifestream, which is actually composed of living souls that are human, and not divine. There is no real "God" as such in the game. It's simply what Sephiroth wishes to become.

Besides, isn't worshipping anything other than your God forbidden by the Ten Commandments. This is a game thread, so I won't turn this into a huge debate about what religion is right or the fine print of religions. Suffice to say, it simply takes from Christianity, the same way Final Fantasy X might take from religious cults. It doesn't make her faith Christian. It makes it Christian-esque and pagan-esque.

 

[Rydrum2112]

Terra,

Let's recap:
A. She doesn't live in a church- and even if she did then it wouldn't mean she is christian.
B. Christians didn't invent praying on your knees & She doesn't pray to god or angles but to the earth (as the creators of the game said, her name is close to an anagram of earth)
C. She has limit breaks with the word Earth so by using your logic she must be pagan.


Also about to you and sky+ "gothic christian church"- it has a menorah on top of it and it is not in the shape of a cross.

The only way for it to be proven is for the creators to say she is or to hear her explicitly say so otherwise you can NEVER prove she is.

 

[The Witch]

Synagogues don't put menorahs on top of their houses of holy—and it's not a menorah. Menorahs look like this; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chanukia.jpg

While the thing on Aerith’s Church has only four stick-figures. It's a church not a synagogue. And I'm not sure, but has anyone explained why Catholic designed angels come down to Aerith after she intentionally prays for the angels aide?

What about Reno’s soldiers shouting; “You’re gonna catch Holy hell” after he ruins the flowers in the Church—two things associated with religion.

And I never said she prays to angels. But she does kneel to the floor and intentionally prays so angels(catholic angels no less) can help her in battle—much like what religious people do. We pray that God will protect us with his angels.

Also, there is a cross(??)on the top of the Church; Above the tall window in the center. <--- Click to see.

Vincent also has cross-like things on his clothes; this one in particular was used in the Crusades: Click

Another Catholic Angel statue: click

I don’t think any of you answered this important question either, if there were no religions in the game, if they didn't want to symbolize Christianity in the game enough to where the player could see they were referencing to it, what would be the point in putting it in the game at all?

The fact that the developers put so much-coincidental-facts in the game, proves they wanted players to get the vibe that they were hinting at a religion. They didn't just put it in there just to do it, they did it for a reason.

 

[Rydrum2112]

They did it for a reason, they are symbols and iconography that people will recognize. If you seriously think that Arieth herself is christian or that christianity is present on gaia then any arguing here is pointless because either you are blinded by your wanting this to be true or not smart enough to see how its just symbols.


How do you then explain all the other religions that are in the present in the game?
Do you think anyone who summons Shiva is hindu how about ifrit or bahamut- anyone who uses them is Arabic. Leviathian is sumerian and on and on. They put these things in the game as icons. Why is their a ziggurat pyramid where in the temple she goes to pray at- were the ancient's aztecs or incans? if so then that is what Arieth's religion is (using your logic).

Also where is the christianity in the forgotten capitol?


And your picture of the church is not what is seen in the game as VinnieJones posted that picture earlier.

"holy hell" is an expression- i bet that isn't what it said in japanese, it was probably something that has the same connotation or idiomatic meaning.

 

[The Witch]

They did it for a reason, they are symbols and iconography that people will recognize. If you seriously think that Arieth herself is christian or that christianity is present on gaia then any arguing here is pointless because either you are blinded by your wanting this to be true or not smart enough to see how its just symbols.

I love how people revert to making fun of someone because they can't argue right. You go be all you can be, man.

How do you then explain all the other religions that are in the present in the game?

I don't have to explain it, all I'm trying to prove is that all of OUR religions in the REAL world are present in VII.

And your picture of the church is not what is seen in the game as VinnieJones posted that picture earlier.

Yeah, also, Cloud has polygon-hour-glass arms, doesn't mean his arms are really hourglass shaped, does it. Also, none of them have fingers, guess they don't have fingers.

Advent Children shows that thing not there.

"holy hell" is an expression- i bet that isn't what it said in japanese, it was probably something that has the same connotation or idiomatic meaning.

Well DUH it's an expression. But now remember the scene, Reno ruins the Church's flowers and then they shout; "YOU'RE GONNA CATCH HOLY HELL!"

Until a Japanese context is provided I'm going with the official translation.

Also, she kneels to the floor and intentionally prays so angels(catholic angels no less) can help her in battle— explain why Catholic designed angels come down to Aerith after she intentionally prays for the angels aide? -meaning she knew angels would help her after she prayed-


I don’t think any of you answered this important question either, if there were no religions in the game, if they didn't want to symbolize Christianity in the game enough to where the player could see they were referencing to it, what would be the point in putting it in the game at all?

The fact that the developers put so much-coincidental-facts in the game, proves they wanted players to get the vibe that they were hinting at a religion. They didn't just put it in there just to do it, they did it for a reason.

 

[Eight]

I have to agree with what the dude above said, I'm not being rude, but this is you just wanting to believe what you want to believe.

It is mentioned numerous times that Aerith hears the planet, she prays for holy, which comes from the lifestream, which is part of the planet, so it's understandable why people would get the idea that she is praying to the planet.

It's also worth pointing out that religion is not mentioned, and the closest thing to a god mentioned is Leviathan of Wutai.

I'm jumping on the bandwagon here and saying that various iconography is borrowed from religions for the pure sake of symbolism and representation, not to say "Oh btw, Aerith is a Christian/Jewish/Muslim/etc etc".

But y'know what, I think the main matter of fact here is that, maybe it is left to us make what we want of it, if you really want to believe it's Christanity, then go ahead, but don't go trying to prove everyone else wrong if they say it's something else, their only natural reaction will be to try and prove you wrong instead, and tbf, from here, it really seems like you're fighting a losing battle. =/ You really ain't doing your theory any justice. Hell after all this, I'd say I'm more inclined to believe Aerith is Pagan.

 

[The Witch]

I'm jumping on the bandwagon here and saying that various iconography is borrowed from religions for the pure sake of symbolism and representation, not to say "Oh btw, Aerith is a Christian/Jewish/Muslim/etc etc".

Well, of course it's symbolism to religion. But WHY did they symbolize Christianity so much if they weren't hinting for the player to understand that's what they were going for?

and tbf, from here, it really seems like you're fighting a losing battle. =/

Proof would be nice.


Again, none of you are explaing why they would add Catholic angels, a gothic designed church, the word gospel, and Aerith praying if they weren't hoping to convey Christianity.

You can go ahead and say that the "Gospel" word they have is meaning something else, but the Gospel word combined with the church, angels, and prayers make one hell of a BIG coincidence.

 

[Eight]

Clearly you've been ignoring everyones point then if you honestly think you're winning this fight. And not being rude but the sarcasm isn't doing you any justice either. It's just coming off right now as an attempt to push people's buttons.

It doesn't matter if more or less were used from Christianity, it doesn't mean to say it's any more definite or not that she's Christian, symbolism isn't neccasarily that narrowed down. And not being funny, but angels come under the whole religious iconography that we've all been going on about to this point, it really isn't brain science. it's like Tales of Symphonia having angels, that didn't neccasarily mean that everyone in the game was all Christians or Catholics, did it?

 

[Rydia]

Aerith was meant to be a pure character. Angels, praying, and churches can represent purity and is what people often identify them with. I think that is what they were going for. Not that she was a christian. And like others have said she prays to the planet. That would make her pagan.

Some have compared Aerith to a christlike figure. (Self sacrificing for humanity, savior of the planet)

I honestly think the angels during her limit breaks are just there for imagery. Like during boss battles when you see the background go abstract. It's just for affect. Not that the characters are really in an endless void.

Besides, her being a christian in the context of FF7's world is so out of place that it is laughable.

This thread is LULz

 

[The Witch]

Clearly you've been ignoring everyones point then if you honestly think you're winning this fight. And not being rude but the sarcasm isn't doing you any justice either. It's just coming off right now as an attempt to push people's buttons.

And you saying I'm not "smart enough" isn't? Whatever dude, you go be all you can be, man.

it's like Tales of Symphonia having angels, that didn't neccasarily mean that everyone in the game was all Christians or Catholics, did it?

First off, not everyone will know what that is, so try and stick to FF fandom. Second of all, in that story were there churches? The word "Gospel?" And scenes of people praying?

See, this is the difference, in VII, we don't have just one of the things to show religious hints. We have more than one. We have a Gothic designed church, gospel, catholic designed angels, and Aerith praying. That's not a coincidence, is it?
If it isn't necessarily called "Christianity" in the game, the developers still put a hell of a lot of religious-type-things in the game for a reason, meaning they wanted the players to see they were referencing to religion. That's all that matters.

Why else would they put those Christian symbolic signs in the game? Like a church, catholic angels, prayers, and the word Gospel? They were showing those things so the player could safely assume that it's symbolizing a religion.

Besides, her being a christian in the context of FF7's world is so out of place that it is laughable.

This thread is LULz

Intelligence.

Aerith was meant to be a pure character. Angels, praying, and churches can represent purity and is what people often identify them with. I think that is what they were going for. Not that she was a christian. And like others have said she prays to the planet. That would make her pagan.

Actually, from what I understand, paganism doesn't necessarily mean she can't be Christian. I mean, the Bible(believe it's Genesis)speaks of lesser gods, too. So in a way, we have to understand they were there, too. I thought Aerith was praying to Holy, then if the planet heard her it would protect itself.
Again, none of you are explaing why they would add Catholic angels, a gothic designed church, the word gospel, and Aerith praying if they weren't hoping to convey Christianity.

You can go ahead and say that the "Gospel" word they have is meaning something else, but the Gospel word combined with the church, angels, and prayers make one hell of a BIG coincidence.