arsehole muslim extremists burn poppies


This is obviously a bit for them to get attention...and it worked.

I try to not get too overworked about the things that go down in society nowadays. Yes, what they did is disrespectful and cruel but they are going to do whatever they can to push their boundaries to the furthest possible limits (thats why they are called extremists), and they will get away with it because society is more liberal now than it has ever been so they know they will have very few repercussions for their actions, and they are using that ability to spread their beliefs in as negative a way as possible.

I feel there is a double standard though. The extremists can sit there and spew crap about Christians and the Western ways on our homefronts and thats okay...but if WE were to go over there and talk crap about Islam, Allah, or any of the above, it would likely result in an all-out war.
 
Terrible Terry Tate said:
Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you like without repercussions. Freedom of speech (or expression) means the government can't prosecute you for what you say.
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I'm not saying they should be prosecuted, I'm saying that they should be deported because they're abusing their privileges.

You're still beholden to the rules and regulations of the social entities (families/workplace, in your examples) in which you reside.
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Like the population of Britain.

Sending them off of our soil isn't suppression of free speech, it's moving them. They can still say what they like, just not here.

Oh bullshit. There's no direct threat, other than the direct violence that stemmed from the protest itself. As someone who lives in a country where our day-to-day life was actually disrupted for a short period of time by an Islamist terrorist attack, the actual threat of this small minority of people is just that: incredibly minor. It took years of planning and training to execute one major attack that was little more than symbolic in the larger scope of things. Nine years later, and we haven't heard a peep from al-Qaida since, really. Islam may become the largest religion in the world at some point in the near future, but Islamist fascism will never take hold, because Islamists are a minority within their own culture.
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I don't mean a threat to us as in we'll all be walking to work dodging snipers if we wear the wrong clothing, I mean attacks on our own beliefs and traditions. The blatant disrespect for our Remembrance Day threatens us in the sense that we are offended by this and it causes uproar.

http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/t...ouble-for-acting-as-muhammad-allah-44309.html

As an aside, if he's in trouble for acting as Muhammed, "offending" individuals, then extremists should be in trouble for offending us. "Imprisoned? Killed in public to set an example?" I don't hear his human rights coming in to question - he's allowed to say as much as he damn well pleases as much as the rest of us, yet he's condemned by religion but disrespect to our dead and their courage is "stupid but allowed".

I'm well aware that freedom of speech is one of the pinnacles of Western societies and I won't doubt that in a small sense I am suggesting they should be silenced, but what I'm getting at overall is that I think we've got the wrong idea. Freedom of speech can't be all it's cracked up to be if it causes this much unrest.
 
coffeecup said:
:/ I really think your personal opinion regarding strong deference to the dead is really biasing your view on this matter. I'm not saying it's bad to feel that way or what you're saying isn't without support. But given the foundation of our current liberal rights-based society, it would be improper to ban these opinions. What you as well as many individuals in this thread are proposing flies directly in the face of the underpinnings of the principles that Western societies attempt to preserve and defend.

Naturally if you change this foundation into something else (which is what most people are implicitly doing by supporting a more constrictive view), then banning statements like these wouldn't pose such a inconsistent problem. But...these aren't the principles of our Western society, and something that I would be wary to change anyway.
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Of course I'm biased on this, there is no standing on the fence and seeing it from multiple angles. It's a pretty straight shot.

To me, I feel this is on the same lines as the KKK. It might sound stupid, but hear me out.

Muslim Extremists:
1) Burning of poppies and protesting on anti-armistice.
2) Wearing black masks to cover up their faces

About 35 Islamic protesters, dressed in dark clothes and with many masking their faces, carried banners and chanted slogans such as "British soldiers: terrorists".
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KKK:
1) Burning a cross in front of an African American's lawn.
2) Wearing white masks to cover their face

Granted this protest happened in Europe, but I'm sure cases of this happened here, just on a smaller scale. I'm just trying to enlighten you that these people are disrespectful. I have reverence for the dead, because I have numerous folks in my family who have fought in this war, Korea, and WWII. If it were just a protest, many probably would have been like... "what's new" though since they burned poppies.. well, overstepping your line.
 
Look, I revere the dead as well and find what they're doing as disgusting (granted all my veteran family members are alive, but a friend of mine deployed in Iraq died when his vehicle was hit by a land mine a couple years ago). No one is disagreeing with you on that point.

What I'm saying as this isn't sufficient. What legal right are you trying to protect at this point? Racial discrimination =/= insulting the dead. One is more egregious than the other (imo). Where we differ is the egregiousness of this act. I also have some emotional investment; however, I recognize that individual rights that Western societies protect are much more important than my idiosyncratic feelings. It's just a difference in personal opinion at this point. How bad is this? You say this crosses the line. I say it's not enough yet.
 
so you'd rather wait for them to do something? fly a plane into a building, plant bombs in london underground. try to blow up glasgow airport? you'd rather wait til they potentially kill other people? let them remove the right to life and everything that follows under the human rights act? then we can say "oh no, that was naughty"?

i doubt thats the way you see it, but thats the way it is with everyone. give them an inch and they take a mile.

if it were up to me these people would be shot, so i suppose its just as well it isnt up to me. i'll compromise and go for dave's solution. kick the bastards out
 
When did muslim protester = terrorist? I was under the impression that we were operating under the assumption that this is not a banned organization. That's why we can talk about the freedom of expression and its limits.

I understand that there's been some additional information that links this group with a banned extremist organization, but if we alter the assumption from a non-banned to a banned organization...then there really is no point in talking about the freedom of expression at all. That point becomes moot because the gov't will go after the individuals affiliated with this banned organization even if they keep their mouth shut. Then there is no freedom of expression debate. And there is nothing interesting to discuss at all.

I'm pretty sure Shu was arguing under the similar assumption of ordinary protesters and the limits with respect to their right of freedom of expression. Because, again, why else would we be talking about it if it didn't matter?

As a clarifying note: I'm just assuming you (Jim) meant what you posted from an angle that these guys are part of a banned extremist organization. Because the alternative would just be perpetuating an incorrect stereotype that we'd want to avoid.
 
It made me sick and pissed off as hell. It angers me that they are students here and we are giving them a chance to have a life in this country which they cant gain anywhere else. Those brave men and women died for us and people need to show damn repsect. Its beyond disgusting.
 
thats not my only concern. banners and posters they held up during this "protest" had totally irrelevant messages (in arabic no less). firstly if they want to protest against something our country is doing and genuinely want to be heard (which i dont think they did, they just wanted to cause trouble) they should have the sense to do so in a language the people and our government can understand. the language of our country - english.

so for the record, no im not saying that all muslims are terrorists or all protestors are extremists. im saying these particular extremists are just out to cause trouble. they're (perhaps deliberately?) blaming the wrong people literally at the expense of those people's families. it seems like a petty argument but why should the tax payer foot the bill for police to protect these idiots when all theyre doing is spitting in our faces and attacking the officers that are there to protect them from people who, given the chance, would give the bastards what they deserved.

you can go on about human rights and freedom of expression as much as you like but i dont think lewis intended to make this a debate about those things, because really in this case you cant argue that these people were trying to achieve anything other than upsetting westerners - which is more than clear from the signs they were holding up. dont spend money protecting them or legislating against arseholes like this, just kick them out. im not a politician or a master debater so im not looking at it like "awww but their human rights". theyre coming into my country and raping its traditions, if anyone's on a crusade its them and i'd much rather they were stopped in the cheapest way possible.
 
I'm pretty sure they've got genuine feelings of distaste for the war in Iraq. From OP's original news post, it shows signs in English and states what a man said in English to the press, so i have no clue where you're getting info that they just spoke Arabic and held up only Arabic signs.

Also, I view this as pretty similar in tone for the protests you saw against the Vietnam War in the USA (a bit more extreme as they're dissing veterans who died but the underlying movement stems from the same intent). It's just 30 guys protesting against a war that they don't support. Burning poppies and saying that British veterans are going to hell are all ancillary points that stem from their initial message. That's what I got from OP's news articles.

But like I said before, if they're affiliated with a banned extremist organization whose sole purpose is to kill and destroy Western civilization, then I've got no problem with the gov't taking action. But if they're just voicing opinion against the war, then it's not kosher to the tenets of our society to just silence whoever we think is saying stupid or insulting shit. The presumption is on the former (voicing opinion), so that's why people are trying to demonstrate that they're part of a banned organization. Then freedom of expression isn't an issue at all.
 
i wasnt trying to imply they solely spoke/held up signs in arabic. regardless of what they thought they were doing - they werent doing it. what they interrupted had nothing to do with troops being in the middle east. everyone else is respectful enough to stay silent or at least not deliberately cause trouble during this time, if they refuse to adhere to our traditions they shouldnt be allowed to stay here. those who fought and died during the second world war did not do so for these cunts to piss on their graves and spit in our faces and its that simple. there are plenty of peaceful islamic people who dont condone their actions, but that doesnt mean we should ignore them cause if we do theyll just keep pushing and pushing.

when they start acting like humans then i'll consider their human rights. until then let the rspca worry about them.
 
Jim said:
if they refuse to adhere to our traditions they shouldnt be allowed to stay here. those who fought and died during the second world war did not do so for these cunts to piss on their graves and spit in our faces and its that simple
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Well there's two sides of the coin.

On one side, extremists may not be right in doing what they've been doing, and maybe the people they are doing it to don't deserve it.

On the other side, however: as much as those people may not deserve it, they asked for it.
If you step on a snake, it bites. It doesn't care what you're intentions were. The middle-east has been pillaged and plagued for 1000's of years, and new age countries stepped on it.

As much as I don't agree with their actions, I wonder sometimes if any part of the world is much different//

Let me put it in perpective: you hate them and want them out of the country because they were burning poppies.
Now imagine if they planted oil rigs every damn square mile in your country while a soldier was in the back banging your baby sister?
 
thats not my problem, or the problem of those who died in wars irrelevant to the middle east.

i cant control greedy businessmen or christianity, nor can the dead.
 
Jim said:
thats not my problem, or the problem of those who died in wars irrelevant to the middle east.

i cant control greedy businessmen or christianity, nor can the dead.
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But you have to face the same consequences as your country, just like the middle-east have to.

If it's okay for you to be selfish, how is it wrong for them to not be selfless?
It's double the irony if you ask me.
 
didnt they have to pay for the poopies? which goes to the charity :) seems to me like they failed there but i think they wasted there time, it didn't change my rememberance day and week i still remembered the soliders and donated to the poppies appeal
 
Kerrigan said:
I HAD to drag up this debate again after this article of news:

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/i...-for-burning-quran-in-carlisle-city-cent.html

I was so ENRAGED when I heard about this today. It completely supports what Lew, Jim and I have been saying about the unfairness of it all.
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It's interesting that you're choosing to side with a neo-nazi skinhead cunt. He's clearly a fucking prick who thinks that england, not scotland, should rule the world again. What other kind of cunt yells 'no surrender'.

You may find poppy burning protests distasteful, that's your perogative. But they're protesting against their families being killed by the British and American armies over oil.
You're a hypocrite if you're not prepared to condemn mr skinhead cunt for doing exactly the same thing. Except he's not complaining about his family being killed, he's complaining because his next door neighbour isn't white.
 
I'm not saying he isn't bigoted, wasn't distasteful or shouldn't be punished. I was referring to the fact that it's the same metaphorical "let's piss on something special" attitude where one party is punished and the other isn't.
 
So what you're saying is that the top dogs in the British government have told the police and judges all across Britain to ignore muslims protesting in an offensive/inflammatory etc etc matter, but to arrest and prosecute all white people doing the same?
 
If the guy stole someone else's property and destroyed it (as opposed to say buying the book himself and destroying it, or being given a copy from someone else who doesn't want it), I'd agree that he should be punished somehow. But if the problem was that he destroyed a book that happened to be considered sacred by some religious group out there, then that is special pleading, plain and simple.

What that basically boils down to is this: you can make fun of politics, you can make fun of literature, you can make fun of anything you want--you just can't make fun of religion; you're just not allowed to. Why? There's just no good reason for it. And I think it's absurd that religion gets special pleading for being the thing that people can't make fun of.

In this world, at this day and age, nothing is sacred.
 
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