DarnWait I might have lied let me do my research...
Still, it's interesting to think about HOW she takes a physical form.
Can Cetra Ancients do what Sephiroth does?
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Still, it's interesting to think about HOW she takes a physical form.
Well if those who decide what is canon and what isn't haven't actually explained how it happens I suppose all we have to work with is theory, and theoretically speaking we could dream up any number of scenarios because it's not SciFi it's Fantasy.
She could have learnt to transcend the seemingly amputative use of Mako energy to manifest herself from a part of the Lifestream into physical form. That sounds too far-fetched though.
EDIT:
""The Lifestream is in fact the sum of all living things on the Planet. In the game's universe, each new life (of plants, animals, and human beings) is "blessed" with spiritual energy from the Lifestream prior to birth. Upon the organism's death, its spiritual energy returns to the Lifestream, taking back with it the memories of its lifetime, and allowing the Lifestream as a whole to grow and the cycle to continue."
-- FF Wiki
She may have learnt how to manipulate the bestowment of spirit energy, giving herself life and willfully rejoining the lifestream every now and then...
Well, technically, it IS just her bending the light and whatnot.
Let me be totally clear -- she is still touching things, the wind will still touch HER -- but the process she achieves this affect is through the careful manipulation of the surrounding environment to create a localized anomaly that looks, sounds, and feels like HER. So if she shook hands with you, you'd swear it was a real person, even though it really isn't. See what I mean? Very much there -- but at the same time, it isn't anything that's permanent.
I think Aerith very well may have manipulated the Lifestream to 'bring herself back to life'. She as a Cetra has a connection to it. Holy did squat against Meteor, until she awakened the will of the Planet and the Lifestream and basically instructed it to aid Holy. It's obvious that she has a tie to it.. she can use it.
That said, Aerith appeared to Cloud several times throughout AC. I think that may have been a ploy to jumpstart his memory. Obviously he didn't forget her, that's not what I mean. I think by appearing to him, she was able to awaken a certain part of his memory of her, bringing his guilt and his burden of her death to the surface. With it bubbling on the surface like that, and her memory fresh in his mind, she (over the course of the movie) was able to appear to him more, and more, and each time even more tangable.. First she touched his shoulder, he tried to look at her and she was gone... next she grasped his hand... and then there she was right in front of him by the end of the movie.
tl;dr I think it's a combination of his memory of her, and the Lifestream.
That said, Aerith appeared to Cloud several times throughout AC. I think that may have been a ploy to jumpstart his memory. Obviously he didn't forget her, that's not what I mean. I think by appearing to him, she was able to awaken a certain part of his memory of her, bringing his guilt and his burden of her death to the surface. With it bubbling on the surface like that, and her memory fresh in his mind, she (over the course of the movie) was able to appear to him more, and more, and each time even more tangable.. First she touched his shoulder, he tried to look at her and she was gone... next she grasped his hand... and then there she was right in front of him by the end of the movie.
tl;dr I think it's a combination of his memory of her, and the Lifestream.
Channizard said:
I wouldn't say that it's possible..... I got the general impression that even if someone wanted to go back to being alive, it's something that isn't done. Even someone like Aerith -- there are simply rules everyone has to abide by, and it just isn't fair if you can get a 'Get out of Death Free' card. Not to mention that would kinda cheapen the whole 'sacrifice' aspect there. :-\
But, let's say that she could, in some way, 'bring herself back to life'. (Well, technically, she's not actually "dead" in the sense of being gone gone gone forever and ever, disappearing into the Nothingness After Death -- it's made pretty clear that a person's 'soul' never dies.... but, moving on.)
The major problem with this theory is that she would have to return to her own body -- which is currently residing at the bottom of a lake. ._. And is probably not in the best state of, ah... cohesiveness, considering the conditions. So her using the Lifestream to sorta 'bring herself back to life', even in the most broad of terms, just doesn't seem likely.
And actually, Holy did work just as it was supposed to -- but it was Sephiroth who was preventing the actual 'message' from the activated materia from reaching the planet, which would then act accordingly. That's why Holy only activated after Sephiroth is killed.
I thought it was said quite plainly that the planet itself used the Lifestream as a weapon.
Baron Van Wolfen
Saint Of Posters
IMO what cloud saw where visions of aerith inside his head, as everyone has a current in them like the lifetream as stated by vincent, and aerith traverses lifestreams i think it`s safe to assume she appeared in visions to cloud(and the chilsren in the church). I also belive that was the reson for the simbolic hand he took in the bahamut fight. Its not like aerith materialized inside tha city-busting megaflare to give him a hand. I think she appeared in his head mostly for emotional support and simbolic reasons.
That's when I have to tell you this... if Aerith was just visions to Cloud and the children, why can she physically touch them? She solidifies proving she's not just a memory or something.
You do know Cloud dies in AC and is then brought back to life by Aerith, right? :/
And about her body, that's not a good argument for why she couldn't come back. She solidified without her body during AC, so it appears she has her own way of recreating her own body.
That's debatable! He may have been dying, and on his way to happy happy Neverland, Aerith basically came on scene and said 'nuff o dat shat' and juiced him with some life energy and prevented him from actually going totally dead.
Or, if he DID die, then his soul never actually reached the Lifestream -- Aerith prevented it from happening and, again, basically cast the Ultimate Cure on him. Aerith herself, on the other hand, definitely DID die, was dead for at least 2 years, and is well within the Lifestream.
When I say 'body' I mean a physical object -- complete with heart, lungs, kidneys and all. We know that Aerith's body is at the bottom of a lake. It just isn't likely that she hopped into her body (which must have magically rejuvenated itself, a feat requiring as much energy and as implausible as the food synthesizers on the Enterprise), cleaned up, got the exact same dress and clothes as before, then flew over to Edge for a cameo appearance. Could it happen? Maybe. Is it likely that's what she did? Not even a little.It's far more likely that she created a kind of psychic construct for herself. (If you don't know what a psychic construct is please read here for some clarity). Not her -- Aerith's -- real, actual body, but a semi-physical avatar of her. Note that manipulating Lifestream energy to effect the living world and telekinesis are at this point one and the same -- it's essentially moving or effecting something physical without actually touching it physically. This is important. This would allow Aerith to pop into Cloud's head -- telepathy -- and have a chat. This would allow Aerith to pop into being above Cloud's head -- teleportation -- and then fling Cloud around a bit -- telekinesis.
So it's quite possible Aerith can do all these things without ever actually reconstructing a new body from her old one -- or whatever is at hand -- or hopping back into her old body again. Aerith is -- I'm sorry to say it guys -- irrevocably dead. She can't come back to life just at the writers' whim -- but that doesn't mean she isn't entirely out of the game, either.
Baron Van Wolfen
Saint Of Posters
Maybe because she dosent actually touch them
??The Mind is very naive, an image of aerith touching someone to them, dosent mean shes actually there. She didnt materialize in front of cloud inside a megaflar, nor do i think she passed energy to him somehow(there is never an allusion to that in the reunion files and i assume the green thing that appears is aerith`s vision fading into the lifestream, i think she only ppeared to him through the lifestrem as a simbolic "last push" as a member of old avalanche). She appeared inside his head and he thought he was taking her hand, she appeared to him, in his head. Shes ot just one of cloud` memorys, she can influence peoples minds through the lifestrem, but not actually physically help or touch them
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Maybe because she dosent actually touch them
The Mind is very naive, an image of aerith touching someone to them, dosent mean shes actually there. She didnt materialize in front of cloud inside a megaflar, nor do i think she passed energy to him somehow(there is never an allusion to that in the reunion files and i assume the green thing that appears is aerith`s vision fading into the lifestream, i think she only ppeared to him through the lifestrem as a simbolic "last push" as a member of old avalanche). She appeared inside his head and he thought he was taking her hand, she appeared to him, in his head. Shes ot just one of cloud` memorys, she can influence peoples minds through the lifestrem, but not actually physically help or touch them
Okay.... right. That's why Aerith accepts something from two random children, right?
She does physically touch Cloud, just the same as Sephiroth was able to. Only difference, we're not sure how she does it. Just because we don't know the answer doesn't mean she can't. She obviously can, has, and will do it whenever she likes.
Oh, well, of course it's not her literal body, as Maiden said, that's at the bottom of the lake Cloud put her to rest at. But who's to say she can't do what Sephiroth can do? He somehow materialized his body enough to where he could cause Cloud pain. If Sephiroth could solidify and not be just in Cloud's mind then Aerith can(as we were shown). And if Sephiroth can become materialized enough that he could cause Cloud pain and physically touch him as if Sephiroth was alive, then Aerith can materialize in her own way and allow herself to not only become physical but allow herself to touch Cloud and or others as if she too were alive.
Hence how she can grab Cloud's hand, speak to random children, and have the wind blow her hair. She definitely becomes physical, that much we should all know by now.
There's a flaw in that theory, though. Aerith becomes as solid as Sephiroth, and as we know, Sephiroth is able to wound and touch Cloud as if he were alive again. As we were shown, Aerith was speaking and interacting with two random children. She's not some image projected to Cloud. She's ACTUALLY there, and she's literally interacting with people.
Maybe through the course of FFVII:AC Aerith discovered she can do it somehow, maybe a vessel is only needed for Jenova's intent? Maybe Aeriths ure intent can do it more purely...?
Perhaps she just uses the Lifestream to solidify...?
Bah! Just a guess though
That actually makes a lot of senseMaybe through the course of FFVII:AC Aerith discovered she can do it somehow, maybe a vessel is only needed for Jenova's intent? Maybe Aeriths ure intent can do it more purely...?
Perhaps she just uses the Lifestream to solidify...?
Bah! Just a guess though
And maybe her ties to Cloud is strong enough that it's like the way Sephiroth solidifies. Only, instead of the negative lifestream and the puppets Sephiroth uses to become solid, Cloud's strong memory of her is enough for her to get ahold of the living world, allowing her to manipulate the lifestream until she materializes in the living world through Cloud's bond to her?
Dance In The Dark said:
Ah, I see how you're not understanding now.
Aerith can use psychic -- really, no better way to describe it -- abilities to affect the real world. Haven't I said, very clearly, that she can -- for all intents and purposes -- create an image that appears solid and feels solid and can affect things as though she were really there? It's not like I'm saying she's just an illusion -- she obviously can move things if she can fling Spiky around. Ah good, I'm sure I said she could affect things physically, just not in the physical sense you'd normally think. =3
You're confusing how Aerith's way around being dead with Sephiroth. The Remnants -- Loz, Kadaj, and Yazoo -- were literally fragments of Sephiroth's soul, who had been 'killed' by Cloud at the very end of the game -- the famous one hit battle. Each of the Remnants is supposed to represent a different part of Sephiroth.
These Remnants are literally nothing more than Jenova/Sephiroth cells (from Seph's body, which is, essentially, half alien, so it's more than enough Jenova-ish) and corrupted Lifestream, along with a fragment of Sephiroth's soul/mind/identity. To 'become whole' (read: reform Sephiroth) more Jenova cells were needed -- why and how, we'll never know that's pretty much speculation and I'm pretty sure it was just a plot device anyways. But that aside -- Sephiroth came back because he had never actually returned to the lifestream -- he had never fully "died" as you'd normally think of it. Not even the splinters of his soul/mind went back into the whole lifestream cycle.
Aerith obviously cannot come back the way Sephiroth did. For one, she's completely human. Two, her soul has returned to the Lifestream, whereas Seph's had not. Three, the cells of her body -- being utterly human -- do not have the strange properties that Jenova's and Sephiroth's do. Fourth, Aerith's soul is completely intact, not shattered.
So you see, it just isn't possible that Aerith could manifest the way Sephiroth did. Seph did it by literally gluing his soul back together with Jenova cells and corrupted Lifestream, and then using that combo to shape-change what we call 'Kadaj' to look like his own body. There are so many reasons why Aerith can't do the same thing, I can't even begin to enumerate, but it should be fairly obvious.
HOWEVER.
That's not to say that she still can manifest in a physical way (but again, not in the "physical" sense you and I would normally think of). Again, I return to the psionic construct example -- please make sure to read my link on that, it won't take you long to get the idea. A psionic construct is, for lack of a better term, a molded object formed from psychic substance, which can be solid when made to, but normally it isn't. All Aerith need do (I'll skip the roundabout physics explanations for brevity's sake) is to create a psionic construct that looks like her, move her soul/mind into it, do what needs doing, and then can disappear again -- just as we saw at the end of the movie. She's totally and completely THERE, in every sense you can think of her being -- but it isn't like she's standing in front of you in her own, original body.
Follow?
And haven't I specifically said that Cloud did NOT get any special treatment in this matter? HAVEN'T I SAID THAT SHE CAN MAKE HERSELF KNOWN, CAN INTERACT, CAN SPEAK TO ANYONE SHE LIKES? THAT THIS WAS OBVIOUS SINCE DENZEL AND MARLENE TALKED OF HER AS IF MEETING HER, AS DID THE LITTLE KIDDIE AT THE END? Oh good, I did say all those things.
Then why, if I may ask, do you keep quoting me and saying things I've clearly said the opposite of?
When was this ever stated? I don't recall it ever being an ability of the Ancients or Cetra, or even a special ability chosen for Aerith. Nomura has said Aerith lives on in Cloud, and that Aerith comes back as Cloud remembers her so her solidifying based on her and Cloud connection isn't far-fetched.
Aren't they as Cloud is, not truly Sephiroth Clones but human experiments injected with Jenova Cells by Hojo?
I wasn't under the impression that Aerith had completely gone back to the Lifestream yet, I thought the Maiden Book stated Aerith could not go back fully into the Lifestream?
But what effected Kadaj is also affecting Cloud through Geostigma, Sephiroth controls Kadaj the same way he attempted to control Cloud before Aerith at the Alter in Final Fantasy VII, its the same case, he can do that with Sephiroth/Jenova clones.
Marlene and Denzel don't speak to her as though she is there, she calls them on the phone as well as the other children in Edge, she also called Clouds phone and left a Message about forgiving him or not needing to really XD
Aren't they as Cloud is, not truly Sephiroth Clones but human experiments injected with Jenova Cells by Hojo?
I wasn't under the impression that Aerith had completely gone back to the Lifestream yet, I thought the Maiden Book stated Aerith could not go back fully into the Lifestream?
But what effected Kadaj is also affecting Cloud through Geostigma, Sephiroth controls Kadaj the same way he attempted to control Cloud before Aerith at the Alter in Final Fantasy VII, its the same case, he can do that with Sephiroth/Jenova clones.
Marlene and Denzel don't speak to her as though she is there, she calls them on the phone as well as the other children in Edge, she also called Clouds phone and left a Message about forgiving him or not needing to really XD
Baron Van Wolfen
Saint Of Posters
Like i said the children think she`s there, she can telepath through the lifestream, interact through the lifestream. She`s a vision, in the children`s brain and in cloud`s, or another theory is as Dragon Mage said she`s a spirit. The lifestream affects all if she wants to appear some random children and cloud, then she will appear to some random children and cloud. In their mind she is there, and if their vision of her touches them their brain will react to such and feel a touch. Seriously there is no indication of her actually materializing, i mean if she materializes inside a megaflare she would, well, be destroyed as she has the durability of a human.
FYI seph does have a body in ACC. He regened it from the scant jenova cells kadaj absorbed. He`s full comprised of jenova cell`s and he created a whole body from them in a few seconds, meaning he has rapid cell regen.
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This whole telepathy thing is really far'fetched, even by VII standards. >.< I don't understand why its so hard to believe that given Sephiroth could split himself and appear to Cloud as himself (technically Y/K/L are him, just sans Jenova cells) but Aerith couldn't. The Cetra were known for having all sorts of funky abilities and thats why Sephiroth thought himself as such a God for being a 'Cetra', because they were unique.. they could do things humans couldn't.
Is Aerith could speak and hear the Planet when she was alive, if she could see the souls of the dead and keep her soul from melding into the rest of the Lifestream (a trait of the Cetra, iirc).. then why is it so far beyond being able to physically manifest herself in front of Cloud. Sephiroth could do it, and in Maiden she expresses an interest in wanting to do the same.. except to appear as herself to Cloud, how he remembered her.
And thats what I think she was doing throughout the whole movie.. jogging his memory and trying to make him forgive himself, but even at the end when Sephiroth was dead, there was still a glimmer of doubt. Amongst the party members in the church he didn't see her there to cheer him on... that's why I think she appeared physically to him, to reassure him that 'okay Sephiroth's dead for good now, you can move on.'
Is Aerith could speak and hear the Planet when she was alive, if she could see the souls of the dead and keep her soul from melding into the rest of the Lifestream (a trait of the Cetra, iirc).. then why is it so far beyond being able to physically manifest herself in front of Cloud. Sephiroth could do it, and in Maiden she expresses an interest in wanting to do the same.. except to appear as herself to Cloud, how he remembered her.
And thats what I think she was doing throughout the whole movie.. jogging his memory and trying to make him forgive himself, but even at the end when Sephiroth was dead, there was still a glimmer of doubt. Amongst the party members in the church he didn't see her there to cheer him on... that's why I think she appeared physically to him, to reassure him that 'okay Sephiroth's dead for good now, you can move on.'
Tori Amos said:
Yeah, and it was never a stated ability of the characters to have pitched battles in midair, while speeding down a road at about 80 mph was it? They said, right in the disc, that they decided they'd do whatever they want so long as it looks cool -- making Aerith appear was not only pertinent to the plot, but it was also fanservice, so we can only rationalize things to a point.
And you obviously haven't done any research into Asian cultures have you? Thought not. Look, I've damn near written a book to explain this, and I sure as hell don't want to right a sequel. Saying that 'she lives on in Cloud' isn't all that Nomura says. He goes on to say that her memory, basically the identity of her as a person, lives on in Cloud. This doesn't mean that Cloud magicked her up from his own brain. It's a consolation to the fans that Aerith isn't utterly dead and gone, that she 'lives on' in a way through the other characters. You have to understand the cultural background of death in Eastern cultures -- it was thought that when you died you were damn well gone. See how that works?
And -- as I've said REPEATEDLY -- if it were solely on some ambiguous "connection" that Aerith was relying on to appear, then she couldn't possibly appear to the kiddies, now could she? Technically, only Cloud should be able to see her or interact with her at all, and we KNOW this isn't the case.
No, they are the splintered fragments of Sephiroth's soul. Each represents a different facet of Sephiroth himself. All laid out pretty clearly here. Please read it.
Cloud's just a regular joe that had the shit fortune to be made into an experiment. But he got better.
Aerith is an Ancient, of course she'd return to the Lifestream. Those 'books' (novellas?) are translated pretty badly, so take their exact words with a grain of salt.
Sephiroth doesn't control Kadaj through geostigma -- Kadaj ISa part of Sephiroth.
You're just not listening are you?
For all intents and purposes, this 'psionic' construct would appear to be a totally solid, real, human being. So no 'as though she were there' or anything -- it'd definitely be like she was there. Except we -- the audience, knows that she really ISN'T there in complete body like the one she was born with.
Okay? Since when, in any of my MANY explanations, have I EVER said that she wouldn't be able to interact with the real world? WHEN? Oh. That's right.
Alucardemi said:
Well at least one person as a grasp of it. I was beginning to lose hope there for a second.
Yes, I know he has a body in AC. That's exactly what I said!
Channizard said:
Oh really? And having a dead man's soul fragments try to destroy the world by stealing the head of a 2,000 year-old head of a dead alien ISN'T far fetched? Flinging a man that is easily about 190 lbs more than 40 stories (and flung by a dead person no less!) isn't far fetched!?
Oh, that isn't far fetched at all? Okay then, well telepathy should be the easiest thing to believe here. It's implied the Cetra are telepathic, not gods, not super people; the ONLY thing we positively know that's different about them is that they had the ability to talk to the planet. That's telepathy -- nothing more, nothing less.
And no, Sephiroth didn't think he was a Cetra for that reason, he did it because it made his goal righteous, gave him a reason to spite Shinra, and besides, he read that Jenova -- his "mother" -- was an Ancient from the erroneous files of the Shinra scientists. I have explained this in the previous thread that sparked the creation of this one. I could link it to you, but you probably wouldn't give it the slightest bit of credibility anyway.
And to answer your question, the reason she can't manifest in front of Cloud and Co like Seph did is because -- I'LL SAY IT AGAIN -- she doesn't have a body, not even one she can glue together like Seph did, and her soul is nicely intact, not splintered, like Seph's.
And keep in mind that when I say 'psionic' and 'psychic' I don't mean it literally as being psychic -- this too, I have said previously -- but it's simply the closest parallel the English language has at its disposal. I can invent an entirely new word for this particular fictional phenomenon if you like.
Um, how about SHE HAS NO BODY? She has no super special Cetra cells to make one for her. Cetra were ESP sensitive humans, not shape-shifting aliens. The way Seph appears and the way Aerith appear are two totally separate means, but both have essentially the same results, with minute differences between them. Namely, Aerith's method is far more stable, whereas Sephiroth's is most certainly not.
I would just like to take this moment aside and say: Well of course she's want to appear as Cloud remembered her. Who the hell want's to see a logistically correct half-rotten, water-logged corpse walking around?
Anyways~ Please see what I have told Amos on this subject of 'appearing as remembered'.
I think no one will disagree that her final appearance was to make sure the main character didn't relapse and try to saw his head off; no argument there. It's the physics/process of it that's the vague bit.
Aerith doesn't have a body, yeah you repeated that about a bajillion times, I gathered. But neither does Sephiroth. K/Y/L all manifested themselves from nothing.. until ACC came out, we had no idea where they came from. All we really know of their origins is that they're Sephiroth's Spirit split in three traits(his mind, strength and charming good looks or summat), manifesting themselves fromk just... nothing. We actually see them appear from out of nowhere in the new ACC beginning.
The only logical explanation? Negative Lifestream/Geostigma which Sephiroth/Holy/Meteor inflicted. Now if Sephiroth can physically form himself from nothing, split into three entities even, then why couldn't Aerith do the same with regular Lifestream. Sephiroth uses his own Negative Lifestream to form his trio, why can't Aerith, who had been able to even keep her soul as one instead of it splitting like Sephiroth's, use the Lifestream which she has a connection with to physically form herself from nothing? THAT is what's so far'fetched.
But neither does Sephiroth. K/Y/L all manifested themselves from nothing.. until ACC came out, we had no idea where they came from. All we really know of their origins is that they're Sephiroth's Spirit split in three traits(his mind, strength and charming good looks or summat), manifesting themselves fromk just... nothing. We actually see them appear from out of nowhere in the new ACC beginning. The only logical explanation? Negative Lifestream/Geostigma which Sephiroth/Holy/Meteor inflicted. Now if Sephiroth can physically form himself from nothing, split into three entities even, then why couldn't Aerith do the same with regular Lifestream. Sephiroth uses his own Negative Lifestream to form his trio, why can't Aerith, who had been able to even keep her soul as one instead of it splitting like Sephiroth's, use the Lifestream which she has a connection with to physically form herself from nothing? THAT is what's so far'fetched.
That's Aeris/Aerith can use telepathy through the LifeStream!
This thread Makes me want to buy ACC just so I can participate in this thread
an share my thoughts, with esteemed Metaphycists
So of I go now to buy ACC!
I don't believe that she was physically touching anyone. It could be made to look like she was touching them, but she's a spirit, and little kids are thought to be able to come in contact with the spirit world easier... but then again, this IS final fantasy we're talking about...
In answer to the question at hand, I think there are some things that the Cetra can do, and some they can't (that Sephiroth does.)
Uhh, i'm not tryin to pick a fight, but i'm just stating my opinion.
In answer to the question at hand, I think there are some things that the Cetra can do, and some they can't (that Sephiroth does.)
Uhh, i'm not tryin to pick a fight, but i'm just stating my opinion.