Cloud's Love Triangle - The LTD of FFVII

[Six]

I personally think Square Enix designed them to be the way the it was, and still is. A love triangle. One will say it's more Cloti, the other will say it's more Clerith. What I don't agree with on what Baby Doll said, however, was that there was romance between Cloud and Aerith. If you swear to protect someone, and the worst thing possible comes between it, - death, then you'd beat yourself up over it to. Some people mistake that simple fact, and say he's devastated because he loved her so dearly "only."

However, you can't just throw away the actual facts Cloud tried getting into SOLDIER to prove himself to a girl he was in love with. Through Crisis Core, and even through FFVII, you can link it all back to the original intentions of Cloud loving Tifa.

I'm a Cloti myself, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I just think you can only have one, if you respect someone else's as well. Just saying guys.

 

[tilinelson2]

So what, anything after Final Fantasy VII the original doesn't count? And once again where did I form an opinion anywhere?

I based my opinion off the facts, I listened to the whole story and then formed a conclusion.

Me too. If you are happy with your own view, good. I´m happy with mine.
You just don´t need to dismiss the other views as irrelevant and imply that their views are less valuable than yours just because they don´t agree with yours.
You take the lines that agree with your view and give them a lot of importance, while you minimize the lines that disagree with your view. That happens with everyone, specially when there are those prequels, sequels and assorted things which rewrite parts of original story and add things that have no consistence with the previous parts.
Being so, it is no use to discuss lines with you. I respect your opinion, just respect mine.

 

[The Witch]

What I don't agree with on what Baby Doll said, however, was that there was romance between Cloud and Aerith. If you swear to protect someone, and the worst thing possible comes between it, - death, then you'd beat yourself up over it to. Some people mistake that simple fact, and say he's devastated because he loved her so dearly "only."

Okay, okay. This is where I have to stop people. No romance between Cloud and Aerith? Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?


This is to everyone in the thread now:

I'm sorry. If there was ANY romance in FINAL FANTASY VII it was between Cloud and Aerith and that's about it.

First of all, to say there was NO romance between Cloud and Aerith is just insane to try and claim. Do you really think a guy like Cloud, who didn't even help his "childhood friend" when she was practically BEGGING him to stick around and help AVALANCHE, to just out of nowhere meet some random flower girl(who he later admits to having impressive eyes, and liking her smile)just because he's the worlds kindest guy? No.


If Cloud didn't help out the woman that you all believe he loves(Tifa) than how in the hell do any of you expect me to believe that Cloud decided to risk his own life and freedom to go and rescue this woman he knew for a mere two days because he DIDN'T have some kind of attraction for her?

I'm sorry, Cloud's attraction for Aerith is proven when he accepts her date in the church. And before anyone starts tossing around the crappy "Cloud didn't accept her date" argument. Stop. Okay, because that's crap and everyone knows it. Cloud accepted her date. Hence the reason he frickin' nodded his head in approval.

So save me from any future bunk arguments like Cloud didn't accept her date. If he wasn't attracted to her, would he have really accepted her date? Of course not. Especially if his lovah Tifah was back at Seventh Heaven PAYING him to stick around.

But, no! We see Cloud, a jackass at this point in the game, out of nowhere start talking about a certain flower girl's "impressive" and "innocent" eyes or her smile that he liked.

Hell, when he's sleeping in Aerith's house Cloud even calls his meeting with Aerith AMAZING. Amazing.

Did any of you know that in DISMANTLED after Aerith dies, Cloud even goes as far as to say that Aerith used to smile like a flower. He's describing her smile to something associated to beauty... a flower. Basically, the jackass just made a poetic description of a woman's smile... and he supposedly doesn't love her. Riiight.

Cloud even says how HE'LL never hear Aerith's innocent laugh ever again. Why? Cloud isn't only remembering Aerith, he's remembering her laugh, giving it depth, and then adds how he misses it and how he'll never hear it again. If he didn't like her laugh, he wouldn't exactly be missing it would he? No.

Strange, we never see Cloud ever even SPEAK of Tifa's smile, laugh or eyes. But here he is... wasting his time describing and thinking deeply about Aerith's smile and laugh... and he supposedly doesn't love her. Riiight.


I mean, hell, not to dis on any pairing but do we EVER see Cloud describing Tifa's eyes as impressive?
Do we ever see Cloud saying Tifa's smile is a good purchase?
What about Cloud saying him meeting Tifa is amazing? Do we even have that much? No. Of course we don't. And if we did, Clotis everywhere would be harping on about how romantic it was for Cloti.

But NO! Now that it's Cloud saying all this romantic crap to Aerith... it means he TOTALLY doesn't love her... or even slightly have any attraction towards her. I can't roll my eyes more than I am right now, people.


I'm sorry, but if Cloud wasn't attracted to Aerith at this point he;

a.) Wouldn't have liked her smile

b.) wouldn't have noticed her eyes so much that he JUST HAD TO tell himself how IMPRESSIVE they were

c.) wouldn't have accepted her date in return for him risking his own life and freedom for her

d.) wouldn't have risked his own life to go and rescue her when he couldn't even stick around for Tifa... for free



And this is just in the first three days of the game. I can go, but to save myself from typing up something so long people just ignore it, I'll save it for later.


So, the next time someone remembers how Cloud wanted to get into Soldier to impress his hometown and Tifa all because of his DIM crush on the towns IT girl, remember how much Cloud notices Aerith's smile, laugh and eyes. Then add on how Cloud risked AVALANCHE, Tifa, and his own freedom and life to go and save Aerith. Then just for fun, think of how unfreezing Aerith's smile is the main push for Cloud to battle Sephiroth.

So don't be trying to feed me this crap that Cloud wasn't attracted to Aerith. Okay, cuz it's crap.


[again, this is to no particular person, just a rant against something that just annoys the hell out of me]

 

[Ilyena]

Guys, can we try and remember to respect everyone else's opinions? We've had to close these LTD debate threads in the past because they got way out of hand and this one looks like it's heading in that direction. So before the flaming starts, I'd just like to throw this out there: They are pixels. Every single one of them. Cloud, Aerith, Tifa and everyone else in the game. Is it really worth getting this heated over? Thanks and carry on.

 

[Baron Van Wolfen]

@tilinelson

Do you have a basis for that other than...your opinion? You can say that but nothing proves it, the date was indeed, because there is a love between them, hence the advertisements. They wanted our initial assumption to be that Cloud and Aerith loved each other.

You can say it had no meaning other than to make Aeriths death all the more sad; but that proves my point -- which is -- Cloud and Aerith had romance.

Since you say the date makes her death more tragic, why else would it add to the tragedy other than because of the lost romance?

Oh yeah, he completely forgot about her after her death, Damn!

「Damn you Cloud for forgetting about Aerith after her death, I mean its not like you said you wanted to unfreeze her smile, said you'd never forgive Sephiroth after he killed her, went on to become depressed in AC and live in her Church and carry an undying feeling for her...damn you!

And in Tifa's words, not only did you lose Aerith, Cloud, but you lost a part of yourself.

"he didn't seem to lose Aerith only, a piece of him also seemed lost." ~ Dismantled, pg 138 of Dismatled

I mean sure, Cloud "forgot" about Aerith after her death, the same way he forgot about Tifas promise.

That's your opinion that its a "cheap romantic device", also I don't give a crap about real life situations in a game entitled "FINAL FANTASY".

I mean to say Cloud forgot about her after her death, thats not only a cheap shot, but its also insulting to Clouds character and Aeriths, you must not have played the same game as me because I never once saw him "forget" about her, after all that's what AC is about, her forgiveness of him.

The sad thing is, nothing I just wrote was my opinion, not once, its all fact proven, interview based text, not a word of it was "my opinion".
Mean while you want stop spouting how Aeriths interactions were just service for her death -- all the while having absolutely no base.

So far I haven't seen you answer any of the questions in my previous post i.e. not challenging them.

The Cloud and Aerith pairing was to artificial for you, in a game called FANTASY?

You can have you impression of the game, but why are you here if you'll basically ignore my posts, since I'll just be posting facts/interviews and such?

@Baron Van Wolfen

"Somewhat"? Nah, that ain't it man. Mind citing where he thinks of Zack constantly? Because when Sephiroth says he wants to take what Cloud cherishes, Cloud sees Aerith 3 times

AC is about him getting forgiveness from Aerith, not Zack, I mean don't get me wrong Zacks there to, but Cloud isn't dragging around because he died, we never even hear of his guilt for Zack in FFVII not once, even after he learns about his true past.

The thing is, he only wants it and yearns for it...from Aerith.

Proof? Why would Cloud fixing his persona, affect his feelings for Aerith? I mean I could understand it affecting Aeriths feelings for him, but not the other way around, or affect how he remembered her and their relationship? That just makes no sense.

Here's a little quoty from cloud's profile:

"In AC, the Buster Sword is stuck in the ground like a grave marker at the hill where Zack died, and Cloud thinks of Zack as he looks at it." - http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/cloud.php

So yes i'm sure he must think of his besttest buddy quite a little.

Sure, he probably feels greater blame for aerith's death, due to many factors that could be cited, but IMO love is not one of them.

Well that probably is because Cloud's persona was riddled with sephiroth/zack/cloud.......with all of Zacks' memories. I've allways linked some of his affection towards aerith because of zack's persona.

 

[Six]

I'm sorry, Cloud's attraction for Aerith is proven when he accepts her date in the church. And before anyone starts tossing around the crappy "Cloud didn't accept her date" argument. Stop. Okay, because that's crap and everyone knows it. Cloud accepted her date. Hence the reason he frickin' nodded his head in approval.

While it may be a piece of crap of an explanation to you, some people, believe that it wasn't a nod. I'm one of those people. I've already said a billion times before, I'm not biased, I even thought this before I actually knew Tifa's character well enough, aka the first time I played the game. So please, don't say it's crap, because some people actually just see it as him shifting. Which CAN be that. No one has ever confirmed it couldn't have been, and a GIF stating he nods, is not going to prove your point.

Also, like I've said a billion times, Cloud does love Aerith. I personally do not think it's any kind of romatic love. Just because you describe something it reminds you of, doesn't mean you're in a friggin' theatre with Romeo and Juliet. Erm, no.

I mean, hell, not to dis on any pairing but do we EVER see Cloud describing Tifa's eyes as impressive?
Do we ever see Cloud saying Tifa's smile is a good purchase?
What about Cloud saying him meeting Tifa is amazing? Do we even have that much? No. Of course we don't. And if we did, Clotis everywhere would be harping on about how romantic it was for Cloti.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here if it's not about dissing a pairing, but even if it was, it wouldn't really matter. No, I'm not saying this 'cause it's not in Tifa's favour, if anything, it simply doesn't matter because you can look at how the characters interact. For me, Cloud and Tifa is comfortable, and realistic. They don't need an explanation, or something described as the smile of a flower, or any of that nonsense. I'm a girl, and I think that's just not needed to make a girl feel special.

However, Cloud never said any of that in game. So anyone can go on about their stories they read, and what anyone might translated. Personally, I don't have any translations, I don't need any translations. My answer for what I believe is the canon pairing is in Final Fantasy VII, the original game, where it all started.

Though, to add it in, Cloud and Tifa admitted their mutual feelings to one another. If the story doesn't end there, and with him being relieved he was able to forgive himself over both Zack and Aerith's death at the end of Advent Children, then you just favour a different pairing, which, as I've said before, I'm not going to argue.

Though the dim crush made me lol. I'm just not even gonna go in to it. I respect your opinion, but I disagree with you on this whole topic, as we both know.

And on that note, Tia is right. I'm not really here to flame anyone, if anything I rather Cloti and Clerith people can respect each other. I don't understand why people would wanna tear someone's preference apart just to prove what they think is right.

No one is until stated by the makers. Everything we say is right, is how we take it, and what we make of it.

 

[Harlequin]

I'm sorry. If there was ANY romance in FINAL FANTASY VII it was between Cloud and Aerith and that's about it.

I'd say there was way more romance between Tifa and Cloud, especially considering their relationship spanned not only the entire game, but also preceded and exceded it. If there wasn't a three way romance we wouldn't be posting in a thread about this three way romance.

If Cloud didn't help out the woman that you all believe he loves(Tifa) than how in the hell do any of you expect me to believe that Cloud decided to risk his own life and freedom to go and rescue this woman he knew for a mere two days because he DIDN'T have some kind of attraction for her?

Well yeah that's undoubtable Cali but then if Aeris was the only reason Cloud was bothered to save the world for, why did he continue after her death?

Aeris may have taught Cloud to feel again, but it wasn't just Aeris Cloud felt for.

I agree though he was obviously attracted to the two ladies.

We've had to close these LTD debate threads in the past

Hahahahaha

 

[Six]

Oh, and to add in a little note, that I find super important in the game itself, to answer this:

If Cloud didn't help out the woman that you all believe he loves(Tifa)

"No matter what anyone else says to me, it's your attitude that counts." - Cloud to Tifa, FFVII, AFTER Aerith has died.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Warbourne, we'll calm down. At least I will, I'd like to keep the thread alive.

----

Dude, Colours, he did that 5 years ago when he was a kid an immature child, and Tifa went around with all the boys in town on the well, you can't honestly compare two mature adults to two children and a promise.

A Promise Cloud didn't even remember, I mean if Cloud was all so serious about his crush back then on Tifa shouldn't he have cherished and remembered that promise?

But I digress because, A) Tifa didn't notice him back then and B) They were kids, immature kids.

Why are you watering it down to 'just swearing to protect'?

The prediction Cait Sith made predicted a love/affinity between Cloud and Aerith and it is stated that his prediction makes her death all the more sad -- because now the lovers are separated. Not simply because Cloud failed to protect, what were the first words from his mouth when she died? Oh, yeah, he was recalling all of her attributes, her anger, her laughter, her happiness and how she'd never go on to do these things again. That was the first thing he said, and that transcends friendship.

You don't cherish every little thing about a friend, you only do that with lovers.

Yes, Cloud wanted to go into SOLDIER when he was a wide eyed boy, young in the world -- now he's a man, and an altogether different person, first crushes aren't serious and no where near the level of love that Cloud and Aerith had.

Citations for when Cloud and Tifa have romantic interactions in FFVII please? Because since Aeriths date is canon and the normal date, I think that means Tifa and Clouds interactions dipped below "friends" at points.

So once again, its not just that Cloud was Aerith's body guard, though that in and of itself is pretty romantic, the woman is engraved in his heart, he has his own undying feeling for her contrast to friendship, he thought about her all the time in FFVII after her death, he mopes around in AC because of her death and lastly what about the International Commercials? They all say Cloud and Aerith have a love that was hindered...?

I do only have one opinion, and I keep to it, always have, always will and always can.

Now here comes my opinion, I think Nomura saying he has no clue if Cloud and Tifa have been or are in a relationship speaks volumes on a mass level. That accompanied with the fact that Cloud and Aerith go on not one, but 2 dates I think makes Cloud and Aeriths relationship beyond just friend and a bodyguard.

Tifa was the only one who knew his past...whatever she says is all that matters. I don't see that as romantic, and its not at all refuting whats been said here. If you believe that as romantic, what about this?

27. In Gast's home, Tifa said Cloud was even more reticent after Aerith's death. She failed finding suitable words to console him, because "he didn't seem to lose Aerith only, a piece of him also seemed lost." She kept saying that she'd never forgive Hojo. ~
Page 138, the marked part

;from Tifas point of view? Or Cloud asking Aerith who he was?

@tilinelson2
I'm not dismissing you opinion, I wouldn't bother there'd be no point to that.

I am dismissing the misconception that Cloud and Tifa love each other, or have any sort of romantic relationship at all As well as the fact that Aerith and Clouds romance was simply servicing her death.

I never said your opinion wasn't valuable, I just said it wasn't necessary in a debate, and it really isn't.

Where have I minimized any line that "disagree" with my view, I disputing you opinion practically, no one has brought any quotes to me this far, just opinion -- baseless at that.

You are the only one who tried to minimize someone quotes and that was mine, you said I shouldn't take books as proof because they "came years after the game". I never minimized crap.

I do respect yours, but I won't take them into account as 'fact'. Sad news.

I'm going to ask again; anything after Final Fantasy VII the original doesn't count?

 

[Dragon Mage]

Like a fatal addiction, I gave up LTD's a while ago, but dropping in on this, I thought maybe a little perspective was needed. This isn't any actual reply to Caliquin, just providing a little 'from-the-other-sides-shoes' viewpoint. Caliquin happened to be the last one to post when I made this; it could easily have been anyone else from either ship, so please keep this in mind.

I'm sorry. If there was ANY romance in FINAL FANTASY VII it was between Cloud and Aerith and that's about it.

Hmmm, interesting you'd say so. I disagree, but it's interesting.

I'd personally say that there was fairly equal amounts of 'romance' between both points of the triangle throughout the game. Each one had its particularly high moments -- a lot is simply up to how the player interpreted uninflected, zero-facial-expression lines. There's a lot of room to interpretation. I'd say there was a good deal of romance between Cloud and Tifa, but that's not to say there wasn't any between Cloud and Aerith as well. I think SE did this on purpose, just to keep the players on their toes. Buggers.

So, both got their screen time. I don't think either got the upper hand over the other, but then, that will depend on your personal bent on the matter. One scene that a cloti shipper would see as romantic would appear much different to a clerith shipper. It really just comes down to how you -- individually -- choose to see the scene.

But then, I am separating this evaluation from my own personal opinion. I see this as SE just intentionally upping the drama, and they did a very good job of it. I see scenes that are highly suggestive for both ships scattered throughout the game. The other ship isn't the enemy in my book -- its SE!

If Cloud didn't help out the woman that you all believe he loves(Tifa) than how in the hell do any of you expect me to believe that Cloud decided to risk his own life and freedom to go and rescue this woman he knew for a mere two days because he DIDN'T have some kind of attraction for her?

Maybe because he's a really nice guy? He's a hero, yeah? Heroes do good and noble things even though they don't benefit from it. So, maybe, those of us that are on the other ship see it this way instead of seeing it as an attraction.

Strange, we never see Cloud ever even SPEAK of Tifa's smile, laugh or eyes.

I mean, hell, not to dis on any pairing but do we EVER see Cloud describing Tifa's eyes as impressive?

Well, there is the fact that Tifa isn't dead. Why would he speak about Tifa's smile or laugh or eyes? She's right there in the room with him. There's no reason for him to really bring it up, unless he's feeling particularly randy or something. I'm sure he'd be just as remorseful if Tifa died and Aerith lived (for whatever reason).

Again, I see SE at work -- they're describing the personal loss of a character in order for the player to gain empathy for that character, and increase the hate toward the villain. I know this technique -- I've used it myself in my writing. It really works a treat!

out of nowhere start talking about a certain flower girl's "impressive" and "innocent" eyes or her smile that he liked.

Well, I wouldn't be too certain about this. From my objective viewpoint, and with my host of writing techniques, I see this as the creators merely describing what Aerith is like to the player. This is necessary considering the limitations of the graphics at the time. While Yuna could look plenty pretty and innocent, we only had a blocky, unemotive face to try and see that in Aerith. So, characters need to be described by other characters out loud.

I can prove this! Aerith does the exact same thing when asking Cloud about his glowing eyes. We can't see he's got glowing eyes. There's no way that's ever indicated in the game. If it weren't for the text -- if it weren't for Aerith actually describing him out loud -- we wouldn't know. So, it was necessary for Aerith to say it so that we would know.

Also, it's really easy to make a character look like a asshole right from the get go, but something more complex like innocence is harder. Apparently, the guys at SE really wanted to hammer that in, so they made other characters comment on that particular aspect of Aerith.

hometown and Tifa all because of his DIM crush on the towns IT girl,

'Dim' is a qualitative statement.




So, yeah, anyways, maybe this explains to some clerith's out there why the other ship may not see things in quite the same light. I haven't listed or claimed anything that's wildly implausible. Either interpretation could be perfectly valid! There's really no way to definitively say that any particular moment in the quoted above is specifically Cloti or Clerith. It depends on who is looking at it.

This is why I think the LTD is just an endlessly perpetuating vice of humanity: to prove that the other guy on the internet is wrong.

Thankfully, I have found a way around this vice! Both shippers get together and get totally smashed. Then, we don't really care what the other guy thinks, because we're all slurring too much anyways! Cheers!

 

[Six]

Dude, Colours, he did that 5 years ago when he was a kid an immature child, and Tifa went around with all the boys in town on the well, you can't honestly compare two mature adults to two children and a promise.

A Promise Cloud didn't even remember, I mean if Cloud was all so serious about his crush back then on Tifa shouldn't he have cherished and remembered that promise?

But I digress because, A) Tifa didn't notice him back then and B) They were kids, immature kids.

Why are you watering it down to 'just swearing to protect'?

Tifa went around with all the boys in town? Well, I'm sorry, but I fail to see where you got that conclusion from. That just sounds like judging a book by it's cover to me. Oh, she has boobs, oh she wears skirts, she hangs around with boys, she must be going around with all of them. Come on, guys. Seriously.

Everyone always pins it down to Cloud not remember that promise. Have you guys ever thought about how messed up in the head Cloud was when Zack saved him? When Tifa found him at the train station? Yeah, excuse the guy for not having his shit straight. He does cherish and remember that promise, more than you might think.

"A sealed up secret wish, tender memories no one could ever know." He remembers all this. When he's together with Tifa in the Lifestream, certain people need to open their eyes an take it in for what it is. It's meaningful, and it states that so claimed "dim crush" he didn't cherish, meant a lot more to him.

A) Tifa didn't notice him because he always hung back, he tries approaching then coward away because he thought she was with them.
B) Immature kids? Probably just like that one statement where Tifa (a teenager if even) forced him in to making a promise?

The prediction Cait Sith made predicted a love/affinity between Cloud and Aerith and it is stated that his prediction makes her death all the more sad -- because now the lovers are separated. Not simply because Cloud failed to protect, what were the first words from his mouth when she died? Oh, yeah, he was recalling all of her attributes, her anger, her laughter, her happiness and how she'd never go on to do these things again. That was the first thing he said, and that transcends friendship.

You don't cherish every little thing about a friend, you only do that with lovers.

Cait Sith has made a lot of false statements as well. What I'm gathering here is that by what he said is you're taking it Cloud and Aerith are lovers, no one, I repeat, no one, has ever confirmed anything close to that. We know Tifa loves Cloud, we know Cloud loves Tifa, we know Aerith loves Cloud, and we know Cloud cares for Aerith. There's no lovers, if there were, there'd be no LTD, I'm afraid.

You cherish it if you're in battle and on the road with them 24/7. Obviously we think different about this then, because I see no harm in cherishing your friends like that, and I definitely know that Cloud cherished each one of the people in AVALANCHE, including Aerith.

Yes, Cloud wanted to go into SOLDIER when he was a wide eyed boy, young in the world -- now he's a man, and an altogether different person, first crushes aren't serious and no where near the level of love that Cloud and Aerith had.

Citations for when Cloud and Tifa have romantic interactions in FFVII please? Because since Aeriths date is canon and the normal date, I think that means Tifa and Clouds interactions dipped below "friends" at points.

The date isn't canon. If it were canon, there wouldn't have been the option to get Barret on the date with you. I'm just saying. Canon is a one way thing, not on a shelf along with 5 other options.

First crushes aren't serious? Calling someone out to talk, making a promise under the stars, and keeping it all together, despite the fact his head was hazy with mako? Alright, hun. If you say so. I think differently.

I don't think he was a wide-eyed boy. I think he was very low on self-esteem if anything, so that, to me, him wanting to join SOLDIER, was definitely showing off for the girl he loved. Once again, this is how I see it.

"She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding." - Tifa's profile

"With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward." - Cloud's profile

"VII - The night before the final battle Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match." -pg. 394 (Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania (2008))

Nojima: "Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together" - Reunion Files

"Cloud is happy living with Tifa and the children." - Advent Children Making Of Documentary

Sorry, guys. I personally find that all way more meaningful than refering to a flower and a smile. Just me.

 

[Starships]

Remember guys, SE has done this on purpose. They gave us both C/A and C/T scenes so we'll get angry at each other debate. The reason why SE hasn't officially confirmed that either one of the pairings is canon, is because they want us to keep guessing who Cloud loves and keep agureing with each other, because then the game won't be forgotten and will keep on being talked about. It's a marketing ploy. There's heaps of Cloti stuff, but I won't deny that there's Clerith stuff as well. I'm just saying that we have our opinions and we shouldn't 'try and defeat the enemy ' I have heaps of Clerith friends and they're a lovely group of people, and I even chat on the Clerith forums. Just try and know each other's opinions and not get carried away with the debate.

Sorry if this made a whole lot of nonsense or just seemed bossy. But just trying to keep the peace. To be honest, we have Clotis and Cleriths, but really Cloud probably loves both of them.

 

[The Witch]

You say Cloud doesn’t nod his head. I say he does. The only difference is, there’s video proof to show Cloud’s nodding his head. His head raises upward, then falls downward—this is a move people do to confirm a deal. It’s as good as a hand shake. But, to avoid going around in circles over something as stupid as whether or not Cloud nods his head, I’ll let you all have this. Let’s all imagine Cloud’s head raising and falling ISN’T a confirming nod. But, instead, him… “shifting”.

If he didn’t accept her date in that scene, which is before he confronts Reno, why does he confront Reno and immediately start to protect her, risking his own life and freedom(along with AVALANCHE and Tifa) to assist this flower girl back to her house? I mean, as I said earlier. Cloud couldn’t even help Tifa out without being paid, in yet, here he is helping this woman he JUST met… for free. Sounds odd, doesn’t it?

I mean, he can help a flower girl he just met for free but he won’t help his childhood friend for free? Sounds very odd, if you ask me.

Very very odd.

[FONT=&quot] Also, like I've said a billion times, Cloud does love Aerith. I personally do not think it's any kind of romatic love. Just because you describe something it reminds you of, doesn't mean you're in a friggin' theatre with Romeo and Juliet. Erm, no. [/FONT]

Wait, so Cloud saying all this poetic, mushy romantic stuff about and to Aerith, means he doesn’t carry some kind of romantic love for Aerith? How? Like I said earlier, we NEVER see Cloud pay as much attention or depth to anyone else. Do we see Cloud call Tifa’s eyes impressive? or her smile beautiful? Or that him meeting Tifa was amazing? No, no we don’t.

Instead, we see Cloud go so in depth with Aerith’s attributes he compares her smile to a flower. He notices that Aerith’s laugh and eyes were innocent and impressive and later admits to missing her laugh… and people want me to believe he didn’t at least carry some kind of attraction for Aerith?

I’m sorry, but to think if he loved Tifa he’d be noticing her smile, eyes, and laugh and not Aerith’s. Can anyone explain why a man like Cloud would go so far into noticing Aerith’s laugh, smile, and eyes and have it NOT be romantic?

And I’m sorry, but if Cloud loved Tifa. He’d notice her smile, not Aerith’s. If he loved Tifa, he’s notice her eyes, not Aerith’s. If he loved Tifa, he’d be noticing her laugh and not Aerith’s.

Are you going to tell me, that if you had a boyfriend that outright noticed another woman’s attributes like comparing their smile to a beautiful flower or saying their eyes are impressive, that you wouldn’t be questioning WHY he was saying all that about another woman, especially if he never said anything like it about you before? I’m sorry, but the way Cloud noticed Aerith’s eyes, smile, and laugh isn’t something someone does when they’re not attracted to the person.

And I’d hate to say this, but at least Clouriths have a basis to go off of when thinking about WHAT he loves about Aerith. Clotis… as far as I know, have nothing to figure out what Cloud supposedly “loves” about Tifa. A fan can speculate that Cloud likes Tifa’s smile… but we never heard that from Square Enix, so it’s not true. A fan could imagine Cloud thinking Tifa’s eyes are impressive, but that’s just their imagination and until Enix says so, it’s just a fans imagination working at it’s best.

However, any Clourith could say how Cloud thinks Aerith’s eyes are innocent and impressive, or that he liked her smile and laugh, or that he thought meeting her was amazing… and have it be 100% true. No arguing around it.

What I’m saying here is, for someone to say Cloud doesn’t have some kind of romantic love for Aerith when we have him saying this type of stuff to and about her, and then turn around and say he “loves” Tifa when Clotis don’t have anything like what Cloud’s noticed about Aerith… is just… absurd.

You called all this stuff Cloud said about Aerith “nonsense” but, I’m a woman, and I think it isn’t nonsense. It’s a man showing his adoration for a woman’s attributes… something he’d only do if he was attracted to her. You say Cloud/Tifa don’t need this type of show of affection because they’re “comfortable” and “realistic” but that’s just your opinion. You’re basically saying, even though we have no reason to believe Cloud even likes anything about Tifa(likes he’s stated to like about Aerith)that it doesn’t matter. But, it does matter. It matters a hell of a lot, actually.

If we never see Cloud showing this type of depth or adoration for Tifa, you expect me to believe they’re in love because you say they’re supposedly “comfortable” and “realistic”? It doesn’t work like that.

Because, as we know, Cloud and Tifa aren’t comfortable with each other. Tifa can’t even ask him if he loves her to his face. That’s not comfortable. What’s realistic is Cloud noticing Aerith’s smile, laugh, and eyes and it being romantic. Realistically, nobody would act and say the things Cloud’s done to Aerith if he didn’t like her or was attracted to her in some romantic way.

Comfortable, is when after beating her, Cloud says to Aerith how sorry he was for hurting her, there’s no tension or stale air between them.

Comfortable is being able to stand right next to a woman and listen to their marriage be predicted.


You might not need an explanation or description to prove Cloud loves Tifa, but… that’s what proves who he loves.
Do you think if Cloud said any of this stuff about Tifa that I’d be arguing this? Because I wouldn’t. If I saw Cloud saying all this romantic stuff about and to only Tifa(like he did for Aerith)I’d obviously know who he loved. But he doesn’t.

And you’re right, he never said this in the game. Lucky for us, Square didn’t want us reading Cloud’s mind but that’s kinda why they released this book called KAITAI SHINSHO when the game was first released back in 1997. So we’d have a more in depth look into each character’s thoughts and feelings. So, this book with all this information isn't just some “book” it’s a guide book with more information about certain scenes that Enix published so fans could get more depth about certain characters, scenes, and relationships.

So, I am using the original game, aka, where it all started.

And no, Cloud and Tifa did not admit their "mutual feelings" to one another. I mean, you can interpret it that way… but it’s still an optional scene with no canon outcome. Because, the first time I played the game, I got the LA highwind scene. You can’t base a conclusion on an optional scene and say it confirms something. Because, I could do the same about Cloud and Aerith’s date.


And, I forget, just where in AC does Cloud ask Zack for forgiveness? I know he said Aerith’s forgiveness is what he wanted more than anything, but not Zack’s. Don’t get me wrong, Cloud felt bad for Zack. But the guilt Cloud felt for Aerith was way greater than his “guilt” for Zack.
I don’t just “favor” a different pairing. I only “favor” this pairing, CloudxAerith, because of all the romantic FACTS I’ve had shoved down my throat.


And, I don’t really know why the dim crush thing made you laugh. Even a Cloti translated it as dim. So, it’s not some ebil Clourith conspiracy, okay.
But you’re right, people shouldn’t tear other ships apart. I hate doing it, but if people aren’t okay with it, they don’t really have to come in here. I do respect your opinion on this, but I’m not going to just sit by and watch someone belittle Cloud’s relationship with Aerith.

[FONT=&quot] I'd say there was way more romance between Tifa and Cloud, especially considering their relationship spanned not only the entire game, but also preceded and exceded it. If there wasn't a three way romance we wouldn't be posting in a thread about this three way romance. [/FONT]

Of course there’s a threeway romance… only difference is. One side of this “love triangle” is optional. It’s up to your opinion whether or not Cloud and Tifa had more romance than Cloud and Aerith. All I can say is, we don’t see Cloud saying Tifa’s eyes are impressive or that her smile was beautiful.

[FONT=&quot] Well yeah that's undoubtable Cali but then if Aeris was the only reason Cloud was bothered to save the world for, why did he continue after her death?[/FONT]

I’m confused. Are you talking about after her death during VII? Or during AC? Because, during VII, Cloud was fighting to unfreeze Aerith’s smile. And During AC, Cloud was giving up and wasn’t fighting before he received Aerith’s forgiveness. It was only after she forgave him that he really started to try.

But, I’ll just throw this in here, during her death scene, Cloud even proclaims to Sephiroth and everyone else that Sephiroth’s “stupid plan” of destroying the world and everyone living on it(which happens to involve Tifa) doesn’t matter now that Aerith was gone. So, looks like not even Tifa possibly dying was enough for Cloud to care about Sephiroth’s plan to kill the planet. :/

[FONT=&quot] "No matter what anyone else says to me, it's your attitude that counts." - Cloud to Tifa, FFVII, AFTER Aerith has died.[/FONT]

That was when Cloud was being mindfooked by Sephiroth. On one hand, Sephiroth was saying Cloud wasn’t real. On the other hand, he had his friend who could confirm he was real. But, if you honestly think that’s something romantic, what about when Cloud asks Aerith who he is in KAITAI SHINSHO?

Maybe because he's a really nice guy? He's a hero, yeah? Heroes do good and noble things even though they don't benefit from it. So, maybe, those of us that are on the other ship see it this way instead of seeing it as an attraction.

Uhh, yeah… no. You seemed to have missed the part where… Cloud didn’t help Tifa(the woman he supposedly loves) for free. If he didn’t help his childhood friend for free, who you all say he loves, then why in the bloody hell would he help out some flower girl he knew for all of five minutes? Oh, right, because he’s a nice guy.

Nice guys always force their “childhood” friend to practically beg them to help while being paid. How nice of Cloud to tell other people to "blow off" or "I don't care about your names". How silly of me to forget just how much of a nice guy Cloud was.

Well, there is the fact that Tifa isn't dead. Why would he speak about Tifa's smile or laugh or eyes? She's right there in the room with him. There's no reason for him to really bring it up, unless he's feeling particularly randy or something. I'm sure he'd be just as remorseful if Tifa died and Aerith lived (for whatever reason).

Umm, Aerith was right in front of him when he said how innocent and impressive her eyes were and how amazing meeting her was.
And, you can say that. But truth be told, that’s just your speculation. Fact of the matter is, Cloud’s said it about Aerith and we have no evidence to say he’d do the same for Tifa.

But, I gotta admit, I like how even you admit a guy would only say something as sweet and romantic as this to a woman if he was "randy" or something. It's funny, cuz I asked my mom if it was romantic or not she said, and I quote: "he's trying to get in her pants"

Basically, if he says it to Tifa, he's randy. But if he says it to Aerith it means nothing. I can't win against double standards if that's all everyone is gonna play.

Again, I see SE at work -- they're describing the personal loss of a character in order for the player to gain empathy for that character, and increase the hate toward the villain. I know this technique -- I've used it myself in my writing. It really works a treat!

That’s… mere baseless opinion.

Well, I wouldn't be too certain about this. From my objective viewpoint, and with my host of writing techniques, I see this as the creators merely describing what Aerith is like to the player. This is necessary considering the limitations of the graphics at the time. While Yuna could look plenty pretty and innocent, we only had a blocky, unemotive face to try and see that in Aerith. So, characters need to be described by other characters out loud.

Riight, and it had to be Cloud to say it? And, why didn’t the other characters get this same treatment? Why hasn’t Tifa’s smile been compared to something beautiful, or her eyes impressive, or her laugh innocent? And exactly, what character depth is made from Cloud saying his meeting with Aerith is amazing? You can say it’s all for character depth, but why just Aerith getting this “in depth” detail? And why just from Cloud?

 

[Six]

Cali, just because Tifa tells him to straighten things up with everyone for her, DOES NOT mean she's paying. I don't even understand where you're making this up from, but it's not true at all.

We don't see anything as an affirmative nod as far as Cloud goes, but for the real sake of not going in circles, you believe what you do, but I believe mine. I'm going to leave it at that.

Now there's a book you're mentioning, and I'll be honest, I've never heard of it, nor have I ever found myself looking up japanse things for CloudxTifa, for the simple fact I don't speak Japanese. If it's official translating, fine, I'll deal with it, but to be very fair, remember the whole koibito thing that went around? Yeah. It's just like that in a way. Fans/Translators translate things, and it comes out different because it's how they view and and because of how they view it, it's waht they make of it.

And as far as you sayig it 'sounds odd, doesn't it.' I never said he wasn't going to help her, did I? But he didn't exactly tell her "Alright, I'll date you." Even then, why would there be an option right after stating Tifa is your girlfriend or not? I'm not trying to favour this in Tifa, I'm just a little tired of people twisting Tifa in to some sort of slut who drags Cloud along with forcing him in to promises, and paying him now? Come on, Cali. =/

Edit:

That was when Cloud was being mindfooked by Sephiroth. On one hand, Sephiroth was saying Cloud wasn’t real. On the other hand, he had his friend who could confirm he was real. But, if you honestly think that’s something romantic, what about when Cloud asks Aerith who he is in KAITAI SHINSHO?

I think you're confused here. He said this AFTER he rounded everyone up in the Highwind, telling them he never made it in to SOLDIER, that he wasn't a SOLDIER 1st class, and that he was living to be someone he wasn't. He was perfectly sane there, no Sephiroth controlling him, no mako messing with his head, nothing. Just the real Cloud.

So, that, alone. Means a whole hell of a lot.

/End edit.

Either way, if that's what you really think, I'm just going to leave it at this, 'cause I'm getting a little tired of this retarded stuff going back and forth. =/ Makes me feel fucked up enough going against friends, and it's just not worth it.

You can’t base a conclusion on an optional scene and say it confirms something.

Then everything in FFVII is optional. So are your thoughts on the canon date. Cloud's love for Aerith is too, so there you have it. End LTD. Everything is optional.

 

[The Witch]

Hmm, sorry, Kira. I should have quoted it. When I said Cloud didn’t stick around for free I mean, after Tifa begs Cloud to help her and AVALANCHE out, he says no. She asks again. He says no. She then brings up the strong armed promise and then he agrees to help his “childhood friend” out only if he continues to be paid. That’s what I mean when I say Cloud couldn’t even help his “childhood” friend Tifa for free.

So… it is true. I wouldn’t lie about something.

You can't honestly expect me or anyone to believe that Cloud doesn’t nod. If he doesn’t nod, what does he do? Oh, right. Shift. It’s just a coincidence that he moves his head like that immediately after she proposes to go on one date with him in return for his protection.

Just because it’s not translated officially doesn’t mean it can’t be used. There have even been Clotis to translate all this Clourithy stuff. So again, it’s not just a biased Clourith translating all this. It’s Japanese knowing translators translating information so the fans can use it.

[FONT=&quot] And as far as you sayig it 'sounds odd, doesn't it.' I never said he wasn't going to help her, did I? But he didn't exactly tell her "Alright, I'll date you." Even then, why would there be an option right after stating Tifa is your girlfriend or not?[/FONT]

No, he didn’t say, “All right, I’ll date you babe” instead he said “it’ll cost you” to which she offers a date, Cloud nods and then continues to not only act as her bodyguard but tells her that he is INDEED her bodyguard.

We already saw Cloud say that for him to protect her, it will cost her something. If he didn’t think Aerith’s payment was sufficient enough or something he wanted, he wouldn’t have protected her. He wouldn’t have continued to protect her, nor would he have told her to her face “I’m your bodyguard, right?”

Just to recap, for him to be her bodyguard, he’d have to be paid… what was his payment from Aerith? A date. If Cloud accepts being her bodyguard, that hand in hand, proves he accepted her date offer, as well.

You answered it yourself, Kira. The “girlfriend” thing is optional. People need to really stop relying on optional scenes to try and prove a couple more canon than the other. Optional scenes(that don’t have default/canon outcomes) will not and never will have any part of who Cloud canonly loves.
Let’s stick with nonoptional scenes, eh?

[FONT=&quot] I'm not trying to favour this in Tifa, I'm just a little tired of people twisting Tifa in to some sort of slut who drags Cloud along with forcing him in to promises, and paying him now? Come on, Cali. =/[/FONT]

Who says Tifa’s a slut? I’m not. I’m just saying the facts. Fact is, Cloud told Tifa no after she asked him to help her… and he only decided to help after remembering the promise she strong armed him into and on top of that, Cloud told Barret and Tifa that he still wanted pay.

I brought this up because, you all expect me to believe that Cloud decided to risk his life and freedom for Aerith, someone he knew for five minutes, just because he was a “nice guy” no. Cloud only decided to help her because of his own self attraction towards her as a woman and because she promised him a date.

The point I was making(that I guess people ignored)was that Cloud(before he met Aerith)wasn’t the type of person to just help others out of the kindness of his heart. He decided to help her because he wanted the date she offered. And yes, because somehow, this man grew so close to her, he started to like her.

Again, I can’t emphasize this anymore than I am, if Cloud didn’t like Aerith, and just helped her because he was just a good guy, why couldn’t he even help his childhood friend(the woman you say he loves) for free? But instead, he told her no, had her practically begging for him to stick around and then forced payment for his time around AVALANCHE.

Something is up here. You all have to admit that.

And no… Cloud says it when Sephiroth is trying to screw with him.
[FONT=&quot]Sephiroth [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "Ha, ha, ha... You look like you're not feeling well." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](He disappears. Cloud turns to Tifa) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Cloud [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "...Tifa? Is Sephiroth right?" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](She doesn't speak for a long time.) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Tifa [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "Cloud..." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Cloud [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "Why are you so scared? Don't worry about me. I'm all right." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "No matter how confused I am, I'll never believe a word that [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sephiroth says." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](He looks at the ground.) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Cloud [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "It's true that sometimes I can't figure out who I am." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "There's a lot of things muddled up in my memories." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "But, Tifa......." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "But you said, 'Long time no see, Cloud' right?" [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "Those words will always support me." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "I am the one you grew up with. I'm Cloud of Nibelheim." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "No matter how much I lose faith in myself, that is the truth." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](He looks up at Tifa.) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Cloud [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "That's why you shouldn't be so scared." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "No matter what anyone else says to me, it's your attitude that [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]counts..." [/FONT]

I know I haven’t played the game in a while, but, he only says this once. And my reasoning stands the same. :/

[FONT=&quot] Either way, if that's what you really think, I'm just going to leave it at this, 'cause I'm getting a little tired of this retarded stuff going back and forth. =/ Makes me feel fucked up enough going against friends, and it's just not worth it.[/FONT]

I can understand why you don’t want to debate this among friends. Cuz, I hate it myself but, I wish you could have told me that before I wasted my time writing up a reply to your arguments. Because, the vast majority of what I just said got ignored… completely.

[FONT=&quot] Then everything in FFVII is optional. So are your thoughts on the canon date. Cloud's love for Aerith is too, so there you have it. End LTD. Everything is optional.[/FONT]

No, because not all the proof and facts for Cloud loving Aerith is optional. Really, it’s just the date scene.

What’s not optional is Cloud saying all this romantic stuff about Aerith’s smile, laugh, and eyes. What’s not optional is Cloud accepting a date from Aerith. What’s not optional is Cloud and Aerith having a date in the Moogle park. What’s not optional is when Cloud risks his own life and freedom to go and save her.

What’s not optional is when Cloud says to Aerith that he’s there for her. What’s not optional is Cloud and Aerith excluding Tifa. What’s not optional is Cloud sharing a two person world with Aerith. What's not optional is Cloud and Aerith having their marriage predicted along with being perfect for each other.

What's not optional is Cloud's mind almost shattering because of Aerith simply left his side. What's not optional is Cloud chasing after Aerith in his dream just because he didn't want her gone, which was before he knew Sephiroth was going to harm her. What’s not optional is Cloud’s heart breaking when she died. What’s not optional is Cloud proclaiming to Sephiroth that he didn’t care if he destroyed the world and everyone on it now that Aerith was dead. What’s not optional is a piece of Cloud being lost when he lost Aerith.

What’s not optional is Cloud telling Tifa that he wants to meet Aerith in the promised land. What’s not optional is Aerith being engraved in Cloud’s heart for eternity. What’s not optional is Cloud having undying feelings for Aerith that are different from the platonic love of their friends. What’s not optional is Cloud suffering in loneliness until he realizes Aerith is with him.


So, while the majority of stuff for Cloud/Tifa might be optional, there’s more than enough facts for Cloud and Aerith that aren’t optional. And this was the point I was trying to make. Cloud/Tifa “facts” and “proof” all comes down to it being optional. While the Cloud/Aerith proof isn’t. :/



(I hope my post got read by everyone debating this time, I think I deserve that much)

 

[Six]

Just to clear things up, Cali. Your post was not ignored, I read everything you typed up, like I always do. Please don't assume it's ignored for the simple fact I didn't answer to it. I felt like we were going in circles. That is all.

 

[tilinelson2]

@tilinelson2
I'm not dismissing you opinion, I wouldn't bother there'd be no point to that.

I am dismissing the misconception that Cloud and Tifa love each other, or have any sort of romantic relationship at all As well as the fact that Aerith and Clouds romance was simply servicing her death.

I never said your opinion wasn't valuable, I just said it wasn't necessary in a debate, and it really isn't.

Where have I minimized any line that "disagree" with my view, I disputing you opinion practically, no one has brought any quotes to me this far, just opinion -- baseless at that.

You are the only one who tried to minimize someone quotes and that was mine, you said I shouldn't take books as proof because they "came years after the game". I never minimized crap.

I do respect yours, but I won't take them into account as 'fact'. Sad news.

I'm going to ask again; anything after Final Fantasy VII the original doesn't count?

They count, but their importance varies. I´ll rank their credibility, IMO.

Interviews: Do not count. Who knows how many times the authors were interviewed and how many different answers they gave in order to meet the interviewers expectations?

Ads: Do not count. Ads are not made to tell the truth.

Sparse references in manuals and books: Very little. They were not elaborated and not justified in the plot, so they may have been thrown up by someone who didn´t have anything to do with the story and wanted to spice the things up.

Prequels, sequels, in-depth official material: Varies. Most can be taken largely as canon, but everytime they contradict anything in the original game, precedence goes to original game, so it rules over the change. For example, Aerith doesn´t know Zack died in the original game, but she senses his death on Crisis Core. How to solve this contradiction? I accept the original game version because the prequel/sequel should not rewrite the original story.

So, many of the references you point, IMO, have zero or very low credibility. I stay mostly with the original version of the game for these matters and my opinion remains unchanged about the subject: Aerith X Cloud "romance" is too shallow and the possibility was throw-up mostly in order to make Aerith´s death more important.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Uhh, yeah… no. You seemed to have missed the part where… Cloud didn’t help Tifa(the woman he supposedly loves) for free. If he didn’t help his childhood friend for free, who you all say he loves, then why in the bloody hell would he help out some flower girl he knew for all of five minutes? Oh, right, because he’s a nice guy.

Nice guys always force their “childhood” friend to practically beg them to help while being paid. How nice of Cloud to tell other people to "blow off" or "I don't care about your names". How silly of me to forget just how much of a nice guy Cloud was.

I think you missed my point. I'm not contesting anything on any point. I am -- as I made profoundly clear -- just providing some perspective. You seemed confused in the post I referred to as to how others cannot see the amount of romance between Cloud and Aerith, so I outlined for you an alternate way of interpreting that particular scene in a way that wasn't romantic. Therefore, addressing the confusion you appeared to have as to how it can be seen as anything other than being romantic between C and A.

I'm not debating the LTD, I'm trying to spread some understanding of the opposite point of view. Even though you disagree with that view, at least you'll understand how others came to a conclusion different from your own. That was my goal.

mm, Aerith was right in front of him when he said how innocent and impressive her eyes were and how amazing meeting her was.
And, you can say that. But truth be told, that’s just your speculation. Fact of the matter is, Cloud’s said it about Aerith and we have no evidence to say he’d do the same for Tifa.

Was she? I honestly cannot remember. Can you please provide the script quotes? I cannot off-hand recall when he described Aerith as such while she was right there.

Also, keep in mind that there isn't any evidence that Cloud wouldn't do the same for Tifa. This is really a very weak point for both sides, because it's unsupported by any repetitive actions of the same nature.

But, I gotta admit, I like how even you admit a guy would only say something as sweet and romantic as this to a woman if he was "randy" or something. It's funny, cuz I asked my mom if it was romantic or not she said, and I quote: "he's trying to get in her pants"

Basically, if he says it to Tifa, he's randy. But if he says it to Aerith it means nothing. I can't win against double standards if that's all everyone is gonna play.

Well, in my experience, guys say all sorts of flattering things when they really want to get involved with a woman, so yeah. Saying things outright like that, without ANY subtly whatsoever, is such obvious flattery that it makes me immediately suspicious. xD

But, er, where did you get the idea I meant if he says it to Tifa, then he's randy? Or that if he says whatever to Aerith, it means nothing? I'm really puzzled, actually. Since 'confidence' and 'strength' are fairly easy things to portray (since this is what Tifa has), you don't really need any character to actually SAY that she is confident or strong. The fact that she has her own business in a bad part of town, is a martial artist, and harbors a terrorist group -- those all speak pretty loudly of 'confidence' and 'strength'.

But innocence is harder to show. For example, I could write a scene where Aerith doesn't know what rape means. (Keep in mind, this is just an exaggerated example, so please hear me out before you quote me! ) Well, instead of making her appear innocent, I just made her seem naive. Further, I could write it so that another character describes rape like a game of tag, but more violent, and Aerith believed it. Instead of making her seem innocent, I just made her look gullible.

So, really, the best way to describe such a difficult to portray and tricky quality like innocence, it's best for another character to describe her as such. Especially so early in the game, when you want to have the players immediately connect with a character and get a very good idea of who that character essentially is -- when you don't have time for the character's dialogue to portray that quality itself -- it's best to have another character say it. Since the moment you speak of was early in the game -- I think, but I'm not too sure -- this is very important.

Don't read more into my words than is there. I see it as a descriptive technique. I see that because I'm a writer and have been writing for a long while now. That's what I would do if I were in SE's place. Nothing pertaining to deep character motivations -- sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one (Occam's Razor) and I see the simplest answer being descriptive exposition. Nothing more, nothing less. If it had been said very late in the game, things might be different. But they weren't, so therefore, I see it as a writing technique.

That’s… mere baseless opinion.

Please read the entire following before quoting.

I'm going off more than mere speculation. I've been writing for years, I've been studying how to write for years, I've worked with published authors for years at Michigan University. I think I know what I'm saying when I say that this is a way to portray the personal loss of a character to solidify empathy between that character and the player; and thus, make the loss of the character all that more profound and important to the player.

I've been studying writing and all dramatic arts for a long time. I just went to a play a day ago. One of the character's dies from leukemia -- a very funny, energetic, young character, who was the only bright character in a relatively gloomy setting. Everyone in audience was crying by the end when that character died. Why? Because of the perspective of the single mother through whom we were looking at this child. For the mother, this child was everything -- she did all she could, worked and sacrificed and persevered through the worst times so she could be the best mother to this kid. So, when the kid died, and the mother started breaking up, everyone in the audience was crying with her. By connecting the audience with the mother (in FF7 this was Cloud), and then having the mother invest so much time and effort for her daughter (Cloud taking it upon himself to protect Aerith) and then killing off the daughter (Aerith dying), the audience feels the impact just as Cloud did.

This is necessary for the same reason why we don't cry about car accidents on TV. A car crash! 2 killed! No one's going to burst into tears over that. But, if you flesh out those people, if you make a whole story around them and their trials and hopes and ideals, and then snatch them away from their family, then you'll start crying. In the first case, there was no empathy with the lost ones. In the second case, there was a LOT of empathy with the victims.

This is a tried and true technique. Not baseless opinion.

Now, WITH THAT SAID, that's not to say that more could be inherent in the line you referred to. It's entirely up to personal interpretation. But what I see is descriptive for plot purposes in addition to whatever other meaning may be there. They are not mutually exclusive -- something can serve the plot and storyline while serving descriptive purposes as well. What that other thing may be, is entirely up to personal interpretation, but what I'm saying is that there is, in addition, a plot purpose as well.

Riight, and it had to be Cloud to say it? And, why didn’t the other characters get this same treatment? Why hasn’t Tifa’s smile been compared to something beautiful, or her eyes impressive, or her laugh innocent? And exactly, what character depth is made from Cloud saying his meeting with Aerith is amazing? You can say it’s all for character depth, but why just Aerith getting this “in depth” detail? And why just from Cloud?

Easy.

Because Tifa doesn't die.

:dave:

But no, seriously, she doesn't. It's important for SE to get players to emotionally invest in a character so that when the character dies, the impact is immediate and deep in the player. Tifa did not need fleshing out in the same way as Aerith did because she wasn't going anywhere. If I back my car over a frog -- so what? It's sad, but really, no waterworks are going to blast.

But if I back my car over a frog that was your personal, special pet, that you had tamed yourself... well, the loss is much deeper isn't it? Just because Tifa may not be described in the same way as Aerith doesn't necessarily indicate a romantic inclination. Tifa's qualities are easier to portray through her character than some of Aerith's qualities. (Again, refer back to the 'confidence' vs. 'innocence' portrayls above.) Other characters are not needed to describe Tifa. But that doesn't make her any less important or detailed and deep as a character. We can infer things about her simply by observing her for ourselves.

But, when other characters remark on a character -- then it doesn't leave anything to question. Also, it force the player to be aware of that aspect. For example, lets say that no one really noticed that Barret has gruff fatherly love for Marlene. But if a character says, "Yeah, he's all bark, but just goes to mush around Marlene." then we are forced to accept that as a part of his character. It's also jumping off the screen and slapping you in the face with a sticker on it that says, "NOTICE THIS." So, when others remark on Aerith's qualities in the game, we are very convinced of the truth and sincerity of this. No room for interpretation.

So, when Aerith dies, we feel the loss of all that she was as the creators describe her. If she were a bloodthirsty shrew, we'd feel differently about her death -- but since SE made absolutely clear that Aerith was quite the opposite, it increase the impact and depth of her loss. Instead of someone that was bitchy and unpleasant and leering getting what they deserved, a kind, charitable and cheerful person was killed unfairly. The perspective changes entirely because of how SE made certain to describe Aerith.

And please, don't mistake coincidence for intent. It could have been any other character to describe Aerith as such. Like... let's take Reno. He could have described her that way too. Does this mean he has the hots for her? Probably not. Maybe, but probably not. And remember, timing is important -- it's vital that you understand the essential identity of a character and connect with them quickly. Since Cloud is the one we follow, and he runs into Aerith first, it's from his mouth we get the essential identity of who Aerith is. It could have been from another character's mouth just as well.

I hope all this taken into consideration will explain to you why Aerith got noticeable treatment in this manner. Tifa was also described in a similar way, by her instructor. So she isn't the only one that is described by other characters. I think Yuffie got some description as well.

I do not ever recall Cloud saying that his meeting with Aerith was amazing.


Cheers!

 

[Saints&Storms]

Dragon Mage; Okay, if something has happened for another side of a debate you can't simply say, based on mere opinion alone -- "Cloud would do the same for Tifa", because point and case is, he hasn't, though some people here are pronouncing them Canon and already in a relationship. Its our solid fact against hollow opinion and baseless assumption. While we don't have to say; I think Cloud would do so and so for Aerith; because he HAS, you have to say so based on mere theory and thought. Ours is a fact, and you can't debate what SOMEONE else thinks would be a given, to someone who obviously disagrees. So, while you can say, you think Cloud would do the same, or he possibly could; he simply HAS not done it, or anything that resembles it. Wouldn't it be most logical for us to not only see Cloud cherishing Tifa's attributes but for us to see Cloud "lover" through her "lovers" eyes? Thats simply building a romantic relationship, or simply building a connection or bond romantic or not that's is significant to a relationship.

Isn't that what you were just arguing to Cali? That; whats obvious to one, may not be so obvious to another? Yet, here you are, simply assuming that Cloud would do the same for Tifa, born from opinion only, obvious or simple to conclude by your standards, not so much by mine.

And the quote from Cloud is from Dismantled I believe/which was released side by side with the game. She was right there in front of him, though where she was doesn't really matter because he's still cherishing her attributes something he lacks to have done for Tifa or anyone else for that matter, once again setting Aerith not only apart from his friends Barret, Tifa, Vincent etc. but above them on a scale of Clouds romantic affection.


So, simply if there isn't evidence that something has not happened, the means it has happened? Or that we may assume it can, would or has? In that case; there isn't evidence that Cloud and Aerith have not had sex, so I can assume they have? Simply because...there isn't evidence...it hasn't happen?

Wow...

Immediate flattery? You say that and I say love at first sight, or damn near close to it. So, let me get this straight, you're trying to say...what exactly, about Cloud immediately thinking of Aerith in high respects of physical attraction? That he wanted to get in her pants or something or he had an ulterior motif? I am pretty confused here, you are being pretty vague in your post so far.

Ofcourse, Tifa is strong and confident, but what exactly are you getting at here? Because we were saying its romantic or affectionate for Cloud to note and seem infatuated with Aeriths physical appearance. Again we are saying its romantic and shows Clouds feelings of love/attraction for him to note Aeriths physical attributes and not only notice them but compare them to flowers or call said attribute amazing.

I mean sure you could say that they only used Cloud as a vessel to prove or show Aeriths innocence, but why use Cloud? Why not Tifa? Or Yuffie? I mean its kind of straw-man to say they only wrote Cloud saying that merely to show her innocence, but the real question is...Why use Cloud, why not Yuffie who also felt emotional for Aerith at her death? Or Tifa who also feels the blame for her death as well? Why use the same guy who has gone on two dates with her to unromantically prove her innocence?

I mean essentially getting an idea of the Character through the difficulty of the game would be a viable argument if, it wasn't Dismantled which this was said in, by the time you read Dismantled you have most likely beaten the game or spoiled it for yourself by reading Dismantled first. But no, they decided to release Dismantled for a more in depth look at the characters, they not only revealed more of Aerith's Character through Cloud's eyes, but more about Clouds character by giving us HIS opinion on Aerith.

I mean, I could just as easily say, they have revealed more about Clouds thoughts and opinions by showing us his thoughts of Aerith, and they revealed more about Cloud's character by doing so than they did Aerith's.

It was a writing technique, by both ways and definitions. But you can simply say its a writing technique and have it be so, then you are doing what you scolded Cali for again, holding your opinion above another, and we really can assume that it is one thing simply because it is obvious...to you. I have written, my sisters a writer and my Grandfather is a published author, and I am pretty sure we all agree that they are doing this; to show Clouds inner feelings and thoughts, which reflect equally on his Character, I mean why say something about Aerith in Cloud profile? Why not describe Aerith, in Aeriths profile?

there you go again, trying to hold YOUR opinion abpve all else, as though thou art so holy, I mean seriously, my grandfather is a published auther of many books, and he'd agree with me. Simply because you say something doesn't make it so.

I mean they are showing Clouds thoughts about Aerith, in his profile, and you want to assume that its merely because they want to show Aeriths character? In Clouds character profile, they want to go in depth about Aeriths Character? Something ain't adding up, to a serious degree.

I agree they are making Cloud invest in Aerith both romantically and protectively, but simply saying that SE did it as fan service for Aeriths death is not only bold but again your mere opinion, I mean we could also feel attached to Clouds investment were it romantic, the comparison you made there to the play you watched doesn't solidify Cloud investment as purely platonic, because the very same scenario could be played for a romantic cause, especially since nearly right before Aeriths death we have a wedding/affinity prediction which said by Nomura makes Aeriths death all the more tragic...so by your own admission, Dragon Mage, SE did make us invest in Clouds investment, they made us feel what Cloud felt, by showing us what he felt to make Aeriths death all the more sad in our eyes, because Cloud and Aerith could not continue.

Again yes, we know these thinsg were done to make Aeriths death not only more sad to us but to Cloud, hence the affinity prediction and what Nomura said about it. We grew attached to Cloud and Aeriths romance, had it ripped away after all the great things we saw them go through, and say and do with each-other. We not only invested in Clouds investment, Aerith, but their romance as well. I mean this could easily be said by bringing the international commercials into the frame; because they speak of a love that could never be, because of Aeriths death.

And also, why use Cloud to make her death more tragic, if it were not romantic? Why make a affinity fore telling their romance and call it all the more sad on account of Aeriths death; were it not Clouds Romantic Investment that were were to feel for?

Now, I would agree with you, were Clouds opinion on Aertiths innocence, amazing eyes, and laugh which is like a flower in the game, but they weren't, they were separately released in an in depth book; which in and of itself is MEANT for character depth; so I ask again, why not put Aeriths character description in her bio/profile instead of using Cloud, someone she had a romantic investment in and had gone on two dates with, as a vessel for telling us about her? Why use and show Clouds opinion on her and her attributes and not any other character? Were it not romantic?

Because Tifa doesn't die?

Okay then, why insinuate at all that Cloud has feelings for Tifa then? Wouldn't Cloud's romantic preference be of some importance? I mean its a video game with oodles and oodles of profile books, why not give us some thoughts of the protagonists "love interest"? Are you saying Tifa isn't important? Because we do get some depth to Tifa's character in her profiles as do we for the other characters, but we just DON'T get them from Cloud's eyes her supposed "lover". As we do for Aerith. I mean you could easily keep saying they are doing it for Aeriths Character but in a Character profile book, it seems just as easy to have done that in her profile. You could also easily keep saying they did it to make her death more sad, as could I about her affinity telling since its officially been stated. The difference is, you are assuming it out of your opinion and I am building a conclusion from what Nomura himself has actually said...oh and the international commercials.

Again, simply saying its easier to describe Tifa through her own character instead of others as you argument is your opinion, because there is an affinity/marriage prediction, and Nomura says THAT is what makes Aeriths death all the more sad. And an affinity telling is point blanca romantic. No if's and's or but's.

And again; why use Cloud? Why use Cloud; the same guy who oh so coincidentally happens to have gone on two dates with her, agreed to protect her in payment of dates, sat by her at a bonfire and said he was there for her, disregarded the planet after her death, sadly protested about how she's never get mad, laugh, or cry again, and continued to protest his pain for her, who went on even after her death to say he always thinks about her, drag about because he let her die and live in solitude? What is the need of continuing Cloud sadness, if all the things he said about her truly were to make US more involved in her? Why the need to continually make Cloud so involved in her? Do we really need to see Cloud guilt carry on to feel more invested in her death? Was it for us players or was it for Cloud? Because right now, seems like it was more for Clouds story development and romantic involvement in her.

All I have to say to you saying it simply had to be Cloud to say all of this is no, because we get numerous character opinions on numerous matters in Dismantled we have Tifa's point of view and we have Clouds point of view, each character profile goes into depth about their view on things, their feelings, their ideals and their descriptions. For example; they gave Tifa's perspective on Cloud and Aeriths two person world, and how she gets jealous, they show Clouds perspective saying Aeriths smile was a good purchase, and they show Aeriths perspective on her feelings for Cloud which is; undoubtably love. The book was meant to give depth to all Characters, not just Aerith, the characters opinions on many things are given in Dismantled, so once again; Why show Cloud giving all these special compliments to Aeriths attributes and Character?

They did it with Tifa in FFVII, was it to make us mourn Clouds death? No, its because Tifa had romantic feelings for the man, so they gave us her view on him in FFVII.

|Tifa
"......If only Cloud was here, everything would be fine."
"Cloud would......"
"Stand that cocky little way he did, and tell us what to do." |


They gave the viewers Tifa noticing CloudS personal attributes, why? Because she feels romantically about him, not because we are supposed to grow attached to him to build up for the climax of his death, or the loss of him, but because we are supposed to see that Tifa has feelings for him.

Cloud HAS said his meeting with Aerith was amazing, in Dismatled, sorry you don't recall it. But I feel inclined to ask, because the answer begs the question; does that mean it would be significant?

 

[Dragon Mage]

Babydoll: I would appreciate it if you took the hostility down a notch. Thank you. I've never started supporting one side of the ship, whatever side that is, so you're passionate reaction against me is really not necessary.

Dragon Mage; Okay, if something has happened for another side of a debate you can't simply say, based on mere opinion alone -- "Cloud would do the same for Tifa", because point and case is, he hasn't, though some people here are pronouncing them Canon and already in a relationship.

Thing is, this isn't mere opinion. I'm not even claiming it's canon. Where did you ever get that idea? Simply by observing the dramatic build-up, the climax, the stunning loss of a beloved character, and by assuming that SE would keep this plot outline despite which character was lost, I can say with fair certainty (but not total -- I cannot speak for the creators, obviously) that no matter which character was lost, there would be an appropriate response of grief from the other characters. Now, it doesn't have to be Tifa -- it could be Barret. Or Vincent. Or Cid. Even Red. I'm not basing this on any assumption of underlying character motivation, which I can only guess at, to be quite honest. I'm not looking at this from a shipper point of view. I'm saying that Cloud would do the same for Tifa only on the basis that this is the kind of story and reaction that Square-Enix wanted to tell, regardless of which character died.

So, in essence, what I'm saying is this:

Imagine that the FF7 universe took an alternate timeline. In this alternate timeline, let's assume that Yuffie died. The reactions of the other characters (including Cloud) would be the same towards her death as was towards Aerith's -- but this is because that is the kind of story that SE wanted to tell.

Nothing to do with character romance whatsoever.

Its our solid fact against hollow opinion and baseless assumption.

I'll say it again, so my intent cannot be mistaken: I'm not arguing any kind of pairing here. I've presented no evidence other than alternate interpretations to that very same evidence that has been presented -- by your side at that.

I compare this to an optical illusion. Let's say that you are of one pairing, and I'm the other. We both look at the same evidence, like so:

I say I see an old woman. You say you see a young woman.

We are both correct -- but what we actually see is up to our own prejudice. For whatever reason, I looked at a scene you saw as obviously CxA -- and I never saw any romance. You looked at a scene I saw as obviously CxB (or whathaveyou), yet you never saw any romance.

With this kind of subjectivity in what supports what from the game, it's very hard to claim that anything is solid evidence. Really, what you see is what you get -- and not everyone sees the same thing. HOWEVER that doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. They are both right, absolutely and positively right. Just not right to everyone.

While we don't have to say; I think Cloud would do so and so for Aerith; because he HAS, you have to say so based on mere theory and thought. Ours is a fact, and you can't debate what SOMEONE else thinks would be a given, to someone who obviously disagrees. So, while you can say, you think Cloud would do the same, or he possibly could; he simply HAS not done it, or anything that resembles it. Wouldn't it be most logical for us to not only see Cloud cherishing Tifa's attributes but for us to see Cloud "lover" through her "lovers" eyes? Thats simply building a romantic relationship, or simply building a connection or bond romantic or not that's is significant to a relationship.

This is a very biased argument for either side to make. Just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Isn't that what the entire CxA pairing is based on? Just because Aerith is dead doesn't mean Cloud couldn't stop loving her after she died.

See, it's a very twisted way to argue things. Obviously, my example in incredibly flawed, but so is your argument. I can also say, if I were to take the opposite standpoint, that Cloud never wanted Aerith's affection because he never went out of his way to get it -- where we already know that he did all he could to garner Tifa's affection because he's actually HAS done it (joining SOLDIER etc.,), has actually SAID specifically that is why he wanted to join SOLDIER. So, according to this argument, your evidence that he wanted Aerith to like him is based on mere theory and thought, and mine is based on solid fact. So, while you can say, you think Cloud wanted Aerith's attention, he simply HAS not done anything to get it, or anything that resembles it.

See how easily I can twist this mode of 'evidence'? It's really a matter of copy and paste -- I could put anything in this and it would be true according to the way it verifies it's 'proof'. This is simply a logical fallacy, and I urge you to reconsider using it in the future, since it is so easily undermined.

Again, please don't assume that I'm actually arguing my above example as proof of any pairing -- it's merely an example, nothing more. I have absolutely no opinion on the LTD here.

Isn't that what you were just arguing to Cali? That; whats obvious to one, may not be so obvious to another? Yet, here you are, simply assuming that Cloud would do the same for Tifa, born from opinion only, obvious or simple to conclude by your standards, not so much by mine.

Yes, that is what I'm saying exactly. But as I said earlier, I'm not limiting my example to just Tifa, to only Tifa -- it could be any character, and you'd get a similar reaction. I'm looking at a picture much bigger than just character relationship, and looking at what the creators were actually doing, the overall structure of the story. Take a moment, please, and think about it -- if the story called for a character death, followed by the other characters grieving, especially Cloud, for that lost one, than you could put any character into that electric chair and come up with the same result. But this is assuming, of course, that SE wanted that kind of a story line regardless of which character died. Like I said, I cannot speak for the creators, so perhaps some character death's would not be as profoundly felt as some others. It really all depends.

But since I cannot speak for the creators, it is safe to assume that this story framework is the one they intended; and as such, any character that dies would have the same result, respectfully.

And the quote from Cloud is from Dismantled I believe/which was released side by side with the game. She was right there in front of him, though where she was doesn't really matter because he's still cherishing her attributes something he lacks to have done for Tifa or anyone else for that matter, once again setting Aerith not only apart from his friends Barret, Tifa, Vincent etc. but above them on a scale of Clouds romantic affection.

I've never heard of Dismantled, and would be much obliged if you could please provide the appropriate quote, link, or video so I could observe exactly what you're talking about for myself. I want to see the actual thing myself, so as to avoid any biases there may be in another's retelling of the scene.

See, now right here you're doing exactly what I've been talking about all along! You say that Cloud is cherishing her attributes which he doesn't do for any other character, correct?

Well! If I were to take the standpoint of CxT -- theoretically speaking, of course -- I could say that he absolutely makes clear that he cherishes Tifa's attributes as well, in a myriad other scenes and scenarios and bits of dialogue. This is simply what I personally saw and interpreted. You see only him cherishing Aerith's attributes, which is what you personally saw and interpreted. Both do exist, both do make an appearance to whatever degree, but which you see as being true is up to personal interpretation. I'm actually quite happy you said this, because it is a perfect example of what I've been talking about all along.

The scale of Cloud's romantic affection made me lol, though. I wonder if in the remake they'll actually make a meter for that kind of thing? xD

So, simply if there isn't evidence that something has not happened, the means it has happened? Or that we may assume it can, would or has? In that case; there isn't evidence that Cloud and Aerith have not had sex, so I can assume they have? Simply because...there isn't evidence...it hasn't happen?

xD I believe you're getting things a little mixed up.

You're only half right. Just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it has happened, as you say.

Instead, just because something hasn't happened doesn't exclude the possibility of it happening in an alternate timeline. So, as an example, let's assume that in the original game Cloud and Aerith did not get frisky. Okay, so they didn't, but that means that in an alternate timeline/plot of the story, things went differently so much so that they did get frisky!

And this can work just as well for any ship/pairing/side you want. As in my response to the first quote, this is a very bad way of trying to prove anything because it can actually prove whatever you want. But in that case, everyone is happy, right? Cookies for all!

Immediate flattery? You say that and I say love at first sight, or damn near close to it. So, let me get this straight, you're trying to say...what exactly, about Cloud immediately thinking of Aerith in high respects of physical attraction? That he wanted to get in her pants or something or he had an ulterior motif? I am pretty confused here, you are being pretty vague in your post so far.

I was talking about immediate flattery outside the context of the game. In real life, actually.

But, assuming I was talking within the context of the game, then yes -- you see love at first sight, I see suspicious flattery. We look at the same thing, but see something different.

My example of Cloud getting randy was just that -- an example, an analogy, a brief hiatus from any kind of reality. Don't take it so seriously. I was merely trying to show that one person can see one thing, and another person can see another. I picked what those two things in the example you refer to at utter random. I could just as well have said that his "immediate flattery" was nothing more than him being autistic and saying exactly what his first impression was. Or something equally ridiculous. Take your pick -- it really doesn't matter.

So, no, I wasn't saying that he had an ulterior motive or being randy; it was just an example of how that scene could be interpreted differently by different people. See?

Ofcourse, Tifa is strong and confident, but what exactly are you getting at here? Because we were saying its romantic or affectionate for Cloud to note and seem infatuated with Aeriths physical appearance. Again we are saying its romantic and shows Clouds feelings of love/attraction for him to note Aeriths physical attributes and not only notice them but compare them to flowers or call said attribute amazing.

My pointing out of Tifa's (theoretical) strength and confidence was just another example. I was addressing Caliquin's response, so I would encourage you to read our entire back-and-forth for full understanding. In essence, let's assume I don't see Cloud remarking on Aerith's innocence as romantic because I'm looking at the scene from a viewpoint that isn't considering relationship dynamics, but writing techniques.

Consider the limited graphics. Hard to show certain aspects, right? Innocence is one of those harder things to show in either dialogue (which runs the risk of making her look gullible or naive, please see my example to Caliquin), or show physically with the limited graphics. So, in order there be no confusion that Aerith is perceived as innocent by the players, another character has to remark on that directly. So in this scenario, I wouldn't see Cloud remarking on her appearance to be romantic, but to be a form of exposition.

I can rationalize that he doesn't do this for Tifa because those two qualities of her I mentioned are much easier to portray, whereas something like innocence is much harder to portray.

Therefore, I come to a different interpretation/conclusion from the same scene as you did. And that is the reason why. Am I saying this is absolutely TRUE? Of course not. It's just one way to explain how my personal experience affects how I interpret the scene in a way so different from yours. Understand?

I mean sure you could say that they only used Cloud as a vessel to prove or show Aeriths innocence, but why use Cloud? Why not Tifa? Or Yuffie? I mean its kind of straw-man to say they only wrote Cloud saying that merely to show her innocence, but the real question is...Why use Cloud, why not Yuffie who also felt emotional for Aerith at her death? Or Tifa who also feels the blame for her death as well? Why use the same guy who has gone on two dates with her to unromantically prove her innocence?

Instead of making any kind of long example, I'll just say it simply. Because he was there. Maybe, in an alternate universe, when SE made this game, they did have Yuffie or Barret or Tifa comment on it. We'll never know. It's just how it worked out. You will see that as meaningful -- whereas I could see it as coincidence. It is utterly dependent upon our individual prejudices, nothing more and nothing less. Does it change the actual fact of what happens in the game? Not at all. That is totally uncontested.

I'm just saying that Cloud describing her attributes openly is a way to portray her innocence -- but I never said that it wasn't romantic. Whether it is romantic or not is entirely up to personal interpretation.

In this light, since so much is obviously up to personal perception, I see such debates over the LT as rather moot, since you can never fully persuade someone who thinks otherwise to see the same that you have in a given scene -- your interpretation is formed from your own experiences in life, philosophy, and attitude. It's a bit much to fully impart all that which made you form the conclusion you did (and I, and others did) to someone else who has a whole different set of experiences they are drawing from.

I mean essentially getting an idea of the Character through the difficulty of the game would be a viable argument if, it wasn't Dismantled which this was said in, by the time you read Dismantled you have most likely beaten the game or spoiled it for yourself by reading Dismantled first. But no, they decided to release Dismantled for a more in depth look at the characters, they not only revealed more of Aerith's Character through Cloud's eyes, but more about Clouds character by giving us HIS opinion on Aerith.

I mean, I could just as easily say, they have revealed more about Clouds thoughts and opinions by showing us his thoughts of Aerith, and they revealed more about Cloud's character by doing so than they did Aerith's.

Again, Dismantled... I've never heard of it before, and would love a link to this.

But it sounds like an addition/flavor text to the game. Keep in mind that while flavor text can be great, the entire 'On a way to a...' series was just feeding the fans and little more. I'd be leery of taking anything like that as absolute seriousness about the characters. Remember, in 'On a way to a smile' (forget which one) Cloud is described as laughing.

Cloud.

Laughing.

The same character that is so solemn and serious that they named a song in AC "Cloud Smiles" because it just so happens to be playing during a scene where he smiles.

Yeah.

But in any case, you are right -- description in this way tells us more about Aerith as well as Cloud. As the old saying goes, "You can tell a lot about a person by what they laugh at." Same holds true for their opinion/thoughts on certain things, whatever it may be.

It was a writing technique, by both ways and definitions. But you can simply say its a writing technique and have it be so, then you are doing what you scolded Cali for again, holding your opinion above another, and we really can assume that it is one thing simply because it is obvious...to you. I have written, my sisters a writer and my Grandfather is a published author, and I am pretty sure we all agree that they are doing this; to show Clouds inner feelings and thoughts, which reflect equally on his Character, I mean why say something about Aerith in Cloud profile? Why not describe Aerith, in Aeriths profile?

I won't confirm that it is totally a writing technique because I've never seen this Dismantled you refer to, but from your description alone I can say yes, it is a writing technique.

At what point have I held my opinion above any other? I'm merely going into great detail to describe how the same scene can be interpreted differently, and in a way that isn't romantic at all, by any side. Just because I describe a scene as not being CxA romantic doesn't automatically mean I'm defending CxT romance. It just means I didn't see that scene as romantic, in any way, shape, or form, pure and simple. I've never said that my view was right and right alone. In fact, several times I've made a point of saying that just because what I see isn't the same as what you see, doesn't mean that what you see is any less valid.

Don't assume I'm automatically combating you just because I don't see the same thing as you do. I'm really being very neutral as possible.

You're grandfather is a published author? Huzzah! Can you PM me any of his books/articles/whathaveyou? It's always a joy to meet and know a fellow writer, even if by proxy!

Also, remember that Cloud is the main character here. It's through his eyes which we explore this world. We will naturally see the most of the story and world through his mind and thoughts, definitely including something as dramatic as a character death.

there you go again, trying to hold YOUR opinion abpve all else, as though thou art so holy, I mean seriously, my grandfather is a published auther of many books, and he'd agree with me. Simply because you say something doesn't make it so.

You're being rude and insulting. I respectfully ask that you desist in such behavior in the future.

Refer to my above reply concerning me holding my opinion "above all else".

Keep in mind that just because you say something doesn't make it so as well. That road goes two ways.

I mean they are showing Clouds thoughts about Aerith, in his profile, and you want to assume that its merely because they want to show Aeriths character? In Clouds character profile, they want to go in depth about Aeriths Character? Something ain't adding up, to a serious degree.

See, this is where that personal interpretation comes in that I've been talking about.

You see this -- describing Aerith through Cloud -- as a romantic implication. Which it certainly could be; no one's to say for sure except the creators.

I however, coming from a different set of experiences than you, am aware that Cloud is our viewpoint character. As I said above, it is through him that we see this world; he is our lens to the game. I see this as simply being the viewpoint character describing Aerith so we players know who she is like. And yes, all that I said about portraying difficult qualities also applies here. To me, this is not necessarily a romantic implication simply because Cloud is saying it -- who else should be describing it if not the viewpoint character?

So in MY view, everything is adding up quite nicely.

Do you see how 2 different perspectives can produce drastically different conclusions?

Now, I would agree with you, were Clouds opinion on Aertiths innocence, amazing eyes, and laugh which is like a flower in the game, but they weren't, they were separately released in an in depth book; which in and of itself is MEANT for character depth; so I ask again, why not put Aeriths character description in her bio/profile instead of using Cloud, someone she had a romantic investment in and had gone on two dates with, as a vessel for telling us about her? Why use and show Clouds opinion on her and her attributes and not any other character? Were it not romantic?

Yet you've actually to provide and prove that this book exists; indeed, if it is even a book. Is it a novella? A long story? A short story?

Also, all books are, at some degree, about character depth. You simply cannot write a book with an engaging story, interesting and realistic setting, without having characters the reader cares about to explore it. So I, seeing this argument you made here, would dismiss that as being indicative of any romance between Cloud and Aerith. However, that is NOT what I'm doing; I'm merely providing a contrast between different perspectives and how things are interpreted differently. This is the intent I've been constantly repeating, and I'm beginning to feel like a demented parrot.

Because Tifa doesn't die?

Okay then, why insinuate at all that Cloud has feelings for Tifa then? Wouldn't Cloud's romantic preference be of some importance? I mean its a video game with oodles and oodles of profile books, why not give us some thoughts of the protagonists "love interest"? Are you saying Tifa isn't important? Because we do get some depth to Tifa's character in her profiles as do we for the other characters, but we just DON'T get them from Cloud's eyes her supposed "lover". As we do for Aerith. I mean you could easily keep saying they are doing it for Aeriths Character but in a Character profile book, it seems just as easy to have done that in her profile. You could also easily keep saying they did it to make her death more sad, as could I about her affinity telling since its officially been stated. The difference is, you are assuming it out of your opinion and I am building a conclusion from what Nomura himself has actually said...oh and the international commercials.

In fact, we do get plenty of who Tifa is through Cloud's eyes. Perhaps, because of your bias, you do not see it or perceive it as something else.

Did you entirely read everything I wrote? Please, provide quotes of what you are referring to so I know what you HAVE read and know about and HAVEN'T. I said 'Because Tifa doesn't die' because it's important to create a connection with the character that DOES die so that when they are killed, the impact is all the more deeper. Tifa is just as important as any other character -- but Aerith has a lot of emotional baggage to drop on the player. It's important we connect with her THROUGH Cloud as much as possible. So we feel the loss of her not only ourselves, but also empathize with that loss in the main characters as well.

Please, read everything I write down. I take a long time to sufficiently examine, consider and respond to your replies, so please do the same. It would take this entire discussion a much shorter time to conclude.

Again, with the insults. You are not doing yourself any favors.

We all assume things from our own opinions. I'm using my knowledge and experience in writing for this particular case. You are using your knowledge and experience from your life to see this as a romantic indicator. Neither of us are 100% right yet neither of us are 100% wrong. We are right as long as we remain within the context of our personal interpretation and experience.

International commercials made me laugh, though. I've never seen nor heard of any international commercial confirming your claims, even after an hour-long search on YouTube. Therefore, I'm logically left to conclude that you are lying, unless you proved links to what you are referring to.

Again, simply saying its easier to describe Tifa through her own character instead of others as you argument is your opinion, because there is an affinity/marriage prediction, and Nomura says THAT is what makes Aeriths death all the more sad. And an affinity telling is point blanca romantic. No if's and's or but's.

I find this entire paragraph nearly impossible to parse.

The fact is that we readers are actually quite astute and adept and taking a little clue and expanding on that clue appropriately.

Tifa runs a bar by herself in a slum. She harbors a secret anti-government terrorist group in her basement. These things are so obviously indicative of a strong, independent woman that no one needs to say that she's strong or independent. It's actually fucking obvious. So no, this isn't my opinion but plain and clear fact -- one of those few that isn't up to personal interpretation. Tifa can take care of herself. Fact. No if's and's or but's.

You will have to elaborate on what you mean by a "affinity/marriage prediction" for this is obviously something you know that not everyone else is privy to. Judging from 'affinity' you're basically saying that because Cloud describes it, that means he has an affinity for Aerith and that is OBVIOUSLY romantic?

Isn't that ignoring the fact that Cloud is the viewpoint character and assuming -- from your own opinion -- that he automatically has an affinity for Aerith just because he describes her?

See, I can twist and stretch this in just as many ways as you can, and we'll both be right, but only to a point.

And again; why use Cloud? Why use Cloud; the same guy who oh so coincidentally happens to have gone on two dates with her, agreed to protect her in payment of dates, sat by her at a bonfire and said he was there for her, disregarded the planet after her death, sadly protested about how she's never get mad, laugh, or cry again, and continued to protest his pain for her, who went on even after her death to say he always thinks about her, drag about because he let her die and live in solitude? What is the need of continuing Cloud sadness, if all the things he said about her truly were to make US more involved in her? Why the need to continually make Cloud so involved in her? Do we really need to see Cloud guilt carry on to feel more invested in her death? Was it for us players or was it for Cloud? Because right now, seems like it was more for Clouds story development and romantic involvement in her.

Two dates is subjective -- depending on your choices as a player, he may not have gone on a date with Aerith at all. And if memory serves, he only goes on one date with her at all -- when at the Golden Saucer, Aerith says it's time to cash in on that date. They never went out on a date prior to that.

So, only if your choices are right, does Cloud ever go on a date with Aerith. And that is only once.

Again, refer to what I said when I pointed out that Cloud is the viewpoint character. As you list all these things, I see nothing that I wouldn't do for a best friend if I was in his position. To my personal experiences, I see this as him treating her at the very least as a close friend. Was she more than that, though? THAT'S where your cumulative experiences in the game and in real life will decide the answer to that. For me, personally, the answer is no. For you, obviously, the answer is yes. That's just how it falls. Neither of us are wrong or right, but as far as we know, we're both. I'm right to myself, but wrong to you; you're right to yourself but wrong to me.

The need to make Cloud so continually involved in Aerith is simple, from an objective, non-shipper point of view.

He is the viewpoint character. It is through him we see, hear, and feel what goes on in this world. In order to make the loss of Aerith profound and deep to the player, it is necessary to make her important to Cloud -- because it's his experiences we are feeling, his struggles we are involved with. If Aerith's death hurts the player, it must also hurt Cloud as well, if only because he is the proxy for the player. To make her important to us, she must be important to the person who perceives her for us -- and that person is Cloud.

So in this case, FROM A PURELY MECHANICAL VIEWPOINT all that work was for the player, not Cloud.

Now, does that mean you are wrong in saying that her loss was profound to Cloud? NOT AT ALL. You're absolutely correct. May it indeed mean his involvement and romantic feelings for her? It absolutely could. Do you know FOR SURE that's what it is for? No. You do not. Not until Nomura writes you a letter by hand and sends it to you saying that you are write, you do not know for sure.

I don't know for sure either, for that matter. We could both be totally wrong. Or I could be totally write, with my own Nomura-written letter confirming everything I've said.

Until that happens, though, we'll both just have to accept that what looks like proof to you may not look like proof to another. The example of the 'mechanical viewpoint' is just one example of myriad ways that entire summation can be interpreted. I picked that one because it had nothing to do with romantic inclination for or against any pairing. That is why I chose it.

And while I'm fairly certain I'm write that to make Aerith and her death important to the reader, she must be made important to Cloud whom is our lens to the world as well, I'm not 100% positive. I have no proof other than the writing techniques and strategies used by writers for centuries. I'm just inferring that is what's happening. Just as you are inferring your own interpretation from your perception and experiences.

All I have to say to you saying it simply had to be Cloud to say all of this is no, because we get numerous character opinions on numerous matters in Dismantled we have Tifa's point of view and we have Clouds point of view, each character profile goes into depth about their view on things, their feelings, their ideals and their descriptions. For example; they gave Tifa's perspective on Cloud and Aeriths two person world, and how she gets jealous, they show Clouds perspective saying Aeriths smile was a good purchase, and they show Aeriths perspective on her feelings for Cloud which is; undoubtably love. The book was meant to give depth to all Characters, not just Aerith, the characters opinions on many things are given in Dismantled, so once again; Why show Cloud giving all these special compliments to Aeriths attributes and Character?

I am disregarding all proof of Dismantled since I have yet to see it and judge for myself and check the veracity of your arguments.

For the purpose solely of the game, however, Cloud is the viewpoint character -- it is only natural for everything perceived in the world to be filtered through Cloud first. This is how a viewpoint character works, as I'm sure you -- a fellow writer -- already know.

|Tifa
"......If only Cloud was here, everything would be fine."
"Cloud would......"
"Stand that cocky little way he did, and tell us what to do." |


They gave the viewers Tifa noticing CloudS personal attributes, why? Because she feels romantically about him, not because we are supposed to grow attached to him to build up for the climax of his death, or the loss of him, but because we are supposed to see that Tifa has feelings for him.

The part of the game you are quoting is actually still staying true to the fact that the perception of the world and other characters is being filtered through the viewpoint character. In this case, that viewpoint character is Tifa. We switched from Cloud's POV to Tifa's because Cloud is out of the picture for the moment. But still, all rules and consequences of viewing things through a particular character still apply, despite who that character is.

In this case, the character is Tifa. And yes, actually, by her describing Cloud in such a way, we feel more for him and Tifa as characters -- it colors his personality and demeanor for us, in this case in a affectionate way. Tifa thinks Cloud is gone (though not dead) and we feel that loss through her describing her own personal loss of him not being there. Tifa has feelings for him, yes -- but now, with our main character gone, we feel like the party has just had its head lopped off, unsure of what to do or where to go. Just as Tifa does, and as Tifa describes.

However, keep in mind that while Tifa says these things, from those words alone it doesn't indicate that she actually loves Cloud. They're "childhood friends," remember? She misses the characteristics of a long-time friend as well as a leader of their group through many perils. It doesn't totally indicate romance... Tifa is very shy on that matter, though the fact that she cares for him deeply is apparent, if it's true love is another. We never see that she actually loves him until the very end.

Cloud HAS said his meeting with Aerith was amazing, in Dismatled, sorry you don't recall it. But I feel inclined to ask, because the answer begs the question; does that mean it would be significant?

I don't recall it because it's from something I've never seen or heard of before and, quite frankly, I'm not even sure is official. It would be significant because... Well, need I say the word 'koiboto"? Same thing here, different side of the coin.


I'm glad we've had this discussion, and I hope you find this interesting, even if you don't agree on all points. In fact, it's to be expected that you won't agree on all points, but I still hope you find it interesting and informative nonetheless



Sincerely,

Dragon Mage