I never understood the so called 'love triangle'. Tifa and Cloud were lifelong friends.
If Tifa is in the mix, all of them are.
A love nonagon
If Tifa is in the mix, all of them are.
A love nonagon
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What about Tidus and Yuna? xDDeath doesn't take away anyone's love for anything. I don't think anyone said that, it does break the fact of having a chance in real life together.
If his feelings were the same as the rest of Aerith's friends, then why, during her death, does everyone come and give their condolences to Cloud, as if he was a grieving husband? Why does Tifa state in CoT that; "...going back to the place where he and Aerith got separated meant that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart apart once again."Cloud does love Aerith, just like everyone in AVALANCHE loved her, I just don't agree/think it was a relationship love interest. I stand by what I think, he loved her as a real close friend, just like the others did.
Cloud and Tifa didn't know each other, then, though. Tifa even admits that in VII during the Lifestream scene. They spoke once, and that was at the well:I don't think so. Cloud knew Tifa when they were kids, and if you pay attention to how much he went out of his way for her to notice him, and what roads they've been on together, I find it impossible to believe he would've jumped in a magic cart with Aerith only after meeting her not too long before.
Of course in THAT situation his prediction wouldn't mean a thing. But Cloud's not with anyone and he definitely isn't married, either. Cloud's a single man.About the Cait Sith quotes, and this has been my opinion even before I got in to the pairings, you can't just assume just because a fortune teller says their stars are perfect, and that they'd be perfect for each other, their minds are set the same. I mean imagine if Cloud was happily married to someone else at that time? I don't think he'd drop anyone just 'cause his star is perfect. You take your own decisions, if I'm not mistaken, and not have yourself told by a fortune teller, that also betrayed the whole party.... Just my opinion (even before I liked any pairings - just saying).
Connection? are you talking of her knowing Cloud's past? If so, that's not true. Zack knows of Cloud's past, too. Honestly, I'd much rather have a bond or two person world than a connection as weak as just knowing where you came from. And Cloud and Aerith share a bond Tifa doesn't have with Cloud, which she is jealous of. Cloud and Aerith built their own two person world, and excluded Tifa causing her to become jealous. (as stated by DISMANTLED on Tifa's page)Love shouldn't be put in a jar with a limited amount of oxygen. You can't rush these things. There are enough little facts lingering around to have everyone know how much Cloud cares - loves Tifa. The scene in FFVII, in the lifestream, Crisis Core, the whole dialogue between the two, the connection she has with Cloud, is something no one else has, Cloud's stated the same. No matter what anyone else says, it's her opinion that matters to him.
That's not true. There is evidence. Evidence that Cloud has his own room, evidence that Tifa and him never share a bed--what more proof do we need to prove they don't share rooms like normal couples would if they've admitted their feelings and had sex on pointy rocks.Even the Cloti fans don't know the deal with the rooms in Seventh Heaven, so neither parties have room to talk about this, or make assumptions, period. There's no evidence on either side.
Yes, but Aerith's dead. What's the excuse for Cloud not kissing Tifa, despite her admitting her feelings more than once, oh, and her being alive, too?Also, no, we haven't seen them kiss, but neither have Cloud and Aerith, unless he dived into the pond during his confused mind set, heh.
She knows the details about Cloud's past in Nibelhiem... Aerith is still the one he has engraved in his heart for all of eternity. And Aerith is the one Cloud developes a special bond with, not to mention a two person world.Either way though... I agree with Quexinos, Tifa was and always will be the key to Cloud's real self, which to me, means she knows Cloud more than anyone, and... If Cloud didn't want it that way, he probably wouldn't have opened up so honestly to her in the Lifestream. <3
What about Tidus and Yuna? xD
If his feelings were the same as the rest of Aerith's friends, then why, during her death, does everyone come and give their condolences to Cloud, as if he was a grieving husband? Why does Tifa state in CoT that;
"...going back to the place where he and Aerith got separated meant that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart apart once again."
"Where HE and Aerith got separated"--why single out Cloud if his feelings were the same as the rest of Avalanche? And what about these quotes that single out Cloud's feelings from the others:
Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget. - DoC NA Manual
If Cloud's feelings were the same as the others, why will Cloud never forget her?
Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life.- Japanese DoC Manual
Engraved in his heart? Now, c'mon, why is she engraved his heart for the rest of his life if his feelings were platonic? I'm not positive, but is Aerith engraved in anyone elses hearts?
And then there's this quote that specifically says Cloud's "undying feelings" are different than the others feelings.
Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007
In this passage, Nomura clearly states that Cloud's feelings for Aerith are undying, which reinforces the idea that she is engraved in Cloud's heart forever, as stated in the Japanese version of the Dirge of Cerberus game manual. Once again, to have undying feelings for someone is a phrase with heavy implications of love rather than friendship.
Furthermore, Nomura says that each of Aerith's comrades has their own feelings and love for Aerith, but that Cloud carries his own feelings.
This would imply that Cloud's feelings are different than the feelings of his comrades. This is important because the Japanese word aijou is used in this paragraph to describe the love that all members of Avalanche (including Cloud) feel for Aerith. Now, the word aijou can mean either romantic love or platonic love. If Cloud's feelings are different than those of his comrades, then isn't it logical that Cloud's love for Aerith is romantic in nature, while the love that other members of Avalanche have for Aerith is platonic?
Cloud's feelings for Aerith are most definitally not the same as the rest of AVALANCHE. That's proven with how much Cloud's pain is focused on. If his feelings for Aerith were platonic, we shouldn't be beaten over the head with how much Cloud's heart broke, mind shattered, over her death or departure.
She watched Cloud's face which looked as if his heart was going to fall apart from the sadness of losing her, the anger and hate he had for her being taken from him.
...
But a cry came through to her.
It wasn't the sound of her cry. If it was then she would have felt the blood gushing up through her throat and the fury that forced its way out from the depths of her soul - It was the sound of Cloud's heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith's death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth.
She was surprised at the great sorrow he had for her. She was a little happy that he thought so much of her but she also felt the pain that was many times greater. There was nothing she could do about Cloud's suffering and the pain ached in her heart.
The pain continued even though she was in the Lifestream.
~Maiden of the Planet
'Taken away from him?', 'The sound of Cloud's heaart cracking?', at this point in time, Aerith felt Cloud's pain because it was the strongest cry that came through to her. Out of all of her friends, Barret, Tifa, Yuffie, Vincent, Cait sith, Red XIII, and Cid--Cloud's pain over her death was the strongest she felt. This right here proves Cloud's feelings for Aerith aren't the same as the rest.
Cloud and Tifa didn't know each other, then, though. Tifa even admits that in VII during the Lifestream scene. They spoke once, and that was at the well.
--------See, they never even spoke, how deep can a dim crush be when you never even spoke to them? Or they never even let you in their group. Going out of his way, is just opinion. I could say the same thing for Cloud going out of his way to gallantly bust into the Shinra building swarming with elite soldiers and robo-guards, risking not only his freedom but his life for a flower girl he just met a few days ago.
Cali said:Notice that Cloud ignores Tifa’s request to straighten things up with everyone for her. He also tells her that he doesn’t care about AVALANCHE, and moves to leave three times despite Tifa’s requests for him to stay. Cloud has also forgotten about the Promise when Tifa first brings it up to him. These and similar passages suggest that Cloud is long over his crush on her.
Cali said:Also, time means nothing for two people develop love. So Cloud and Aerith knowing eachother for a little time span doesn't prevent them from falling in love. And if you ask me, the two weeks + days that Cloud and Aerith knew each other just makes their love all the more beautiful and bittersweet. I mean, Cloud only knew Aerith for a short period of time, in yet she's now forever engraved in his heart for all of eternity? They only knew each other for a few weeks, but he already has undying feelings for her? They only knew each other for two weeks but they were able to build a two person world, in which Tifa was jealous of?
Cali said:Yeah, they only knew each other for two weeks, but seeing all of the romantic and beautiful things they accomplished, I say it just adds to their tragic love.
Cali said:In a matter of fact, for Cloud to have her engraved in his heart, have undying feeling/love for her, build a two person world together, and build a bond no one else had with each other, I'd say it's pretty darn impossible to develope all of that in a short time period AND NOT be in love with the person.
Cali said:The thing to pay attention to is that SE decided to make a scene like this occur between them for their future and their relationship. If Cloud and Aerith weren't supposed to be in love with each other, why make their future be a great one withe each other, and why make their stars perfect?
Cali said:And yes, Cait Sith's predictions hold a deep meaning to them, as said by Nomura.
Cali said:Besides, the quote says;
Caption:Cat Sith's lines which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith's wedding now makes it more painful. -FFVII Ultimania Omega
If the prediction of their wedding wasn't supposed to be taken seriously, why does it make her death more painful? Because now, their wedding can't happen.
Cali said:Cloud and Aerith share a bond Tifa doesn't have with Cloud, which she is jealous of. Cloud and Aerith built their own two person world, and excluded Tifa causing her to become jealous. (as stated by DISMANTLED on Tifa's page)
c.) Friend and rival?
Complicated feelings toward Aerith
Cali said:Both of them share feelings for Cloud. Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had developed a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Cali said:That's not true. There is evidence. Evidence that Cloud has his own room, evidence that Tifa and him never share a bed--what more proof do we need to prove they don't share rooms like normal couples would if they've admitted their feelings and had sex on pointy rocks.
Cali said:Yes, but Aerith's dead. What's the excuse for Cloud not kissing Tifa, despite her admitting her feelings more than once, oh, and her being alive, too?
Cali said:There's literally nothing stopping Cloud from getting with Tifa, whether that's kissing her or hugging her, we haven't seen Cloud do either to Tifa. So, if he loves her and they admited their love for each other under the highwind, why no kiss scene? Why have separate rooms? It's not like anything is preventing him from being with her... so why not show a fluffy kiss scene between the two?
Cali said:If I can be frank, we haven't seen them kiss or anything because... Cloud doesn't love her.
Cali said:She knows the details about Cloud's past in Nibelhiem... Aerith is still the one he has engraved in his heart for all of eternity. And Aerith is the one Cloud developes a special bond with, not to mention a two person world.
Cali said:If Cloud didn't love Aerith, she wouldn't be engraved in his heart, nor would he have an undying feeling for her that differs from platonic love, nor would he have a special bond with her he shares with no one else, nor would he create a two person world with Aerith.
^Not sure I get what you mean
What about Tidus and Yuna? xD
If his feelings were the same as the rest of Aerith's friends, then why, during her death, does everyone come and give their condolences to Cloud, as if he was a grieving husband? Why does Tifa state in CoT that; "...going back to the place where he and Aerith got separated meant that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart apart once again."
"Where HE and Aerith got separated"--why single out Cloud if his feelings were the same as the rest of Avalanche? And what about these quotes that single out Cloud's feelings from the others:
Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget. - DoC NA Manual
If Cloud's feelings were the same as the others, why will Cloud never forget her?
Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life.- Japanese DoC Manual
Engraved in his heart? Now, c'mon, why is she engraved his heart for the rest of his life if his feelings were platonic? I'm not positive, but is Aerith engraved in anyone elses hearts?
And then there's this quote that specifically says Cloud's "undying feelings" are different than the others feelings.
Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007
In this passage, Nomura clearly states that Cloud's feelings for Aerith are undying, which reinforces the idea that she is engraved in Cloud's heart forever, as stated in the Japanese version of the Dirge of Cerberus game manual. Once again, to have undying feelings for someone is a phrase with heavy implications of love rather than friendship.
Furthermore, Nomura says that each of Aerith's comrades has their own feelings and love for Aerith, but that Cloud carries his own feelings.
This would imply that Cloud's feelings are different than the feelings of his comrades. This is important because the Japanese word aijou is used in this paragraph to describe the love that all members of Avalanche (including Cloud) feel for Aerith. Now, the word aijou can mean either romantic love or platonic love. If Cloud's feelings are different than those of his comrades, then isn't it logical that Cloud's love for Aerith is romantic in nature, while the love that other members of Avalanche have for Aerith is platonic?
Cloud's feelings for Aerith are most definitally not the same as the rest of AVALANCHE. That's proven with how much Cloud's pain is focused on. If his feelings for Aerith were platonic, we shouldn't be beaten over the head with how much Cloud's heart broke, mind shattered, over her death or departure:
She watched Cloud's face which looked as if his heart was going to fall apart from the sadness of losing her, the anger and hate he had for her being taken from him.
...
But a cry came through to her.
It wasn't the sound of her cry. If it was then she would have felt the blood gushing up through her throat and the fury that forced its way out from the depths of her soul - It was the sound of Cloud's heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith's death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth.
She was surprised at the great sorrow he had for her. She was a little happy that he thought so much of her but she also felt the pain that was many times greater. There was nothing she could do about Cloud's suffering and the pain ached in her heart.
The pain continued even though she was in the Lifestream.
~Maiden of the Planet
'Taken away from him?', 'The sound of Cloud's heaart cracking?', at this point in time, Aerith felt Cloud's pain because it was the strongest cry that came through to her. Out of all of her friends, Barret, Tifa, Yuffie, Vincent, Cait sith, Red XIII, and Cid--Cloud's pain over her death was the strongest she felt. This right here proves Cloud's feelings for Aerith aren't the same as the rest.
Cloud and Tifa didn't know each other, then, though. Tifa even admits that in VII during the Lifestream scene. They spoke once, and that was at the well:
Young Cloud "Tifa... did you forget... about those days?"
Tifa "Look... I..."
Tifa "I'm sorry... But what are you talking about?"
Young Cloud "No... it's all right. You were having a hard time back then."
Young Cloud "You were so busy with your own things, it's only natural you don't remember me back then."
Tifa "'Back then'?"
Tifa "My room?"
Young Cloud "It was my first time there."
Tifa "Was... it?"
Young Cloud "I only used to look up at it from outside."
Tifa "Was that the first day you came into my room?"
Tifa "...that's right. We lived next to each other. But I really didn't know you that well."
Tifa "I've known you since we were children and I always thought we were close..."
Tifa "Now that you mention it... I don't recall you ever being in my room..."
Young Cloud "Tifa always used to be with this three-some."
Tifa "...That's right."
Young Cloud "You were all childish, laughing at every little stupid thing."
Tifa "But we were children, back then."
Young Cloud "...I know. I'm the one that was stupid. I really wanted to play with everyone, but I was never allowed into the group."
Young Cloud "Then later... I began to think I was different... That I was different from those immature kids."
Young Cloud "That then... maybe..."
(A double of the adult Cloud stands, and then it speaks.)
"Just maybe, they would invite me in."
"I thought that might happen, so I hung around..."
(The double speaks again.)
"That night I called Tifa out to the well... I thought to myself Tifa would never come, that she hated me."
Tifa "Yeah... it was so sudden. I was... a bit surprised."
(She turns to face Young Cloud.)
Tifa "But... It's true that we weren't THAT close, but..."
--------See, they never even spoke, how deep can a dim crush be when you never even spoke to them? Or they never even let you in their group. Going out of his way, is just opinion. I could say the same thing for Cloud going out of his way to gallantly bust into the Shinra building swarming with elite soldiers and robo-guards, risking not only his freedom but his life for a flower girl he just met a few days ago.
Barret "Don't get no ideas 'bout hangin' on to Shinra."
Cloud "Stayin' with Shinra? You asked me a question and I answered it... that's all."
Cloud "I'm going upstairs. I want to talk about my money."
(Cloud moves to leave. Tifa runs in.)
Tifa "Wait, Cloud!"
Barret "Tifa! Let him go! Looks like he still misses the Shinra!"
Cloud "Shut up! I don't care about either Shinra or SOLDIER! But don't get me wrong!”
Cloud “I don't care about AVALANCHE or the Planet for that matter!"
Tifa "Straighten things up with everyone for me."
(Cloud goes back up the elevator and goes to leave. He is followed by Tifa.)
Tifa "Listen, Cloud. I'm asking you. Please join us."
Cloud "Sorry Tifa..."
Tifa "The Planet is dying. Slowly but surely it's dying. Someone has to do something."
Cloud "So let Barret and his buddies do something about it. It's got nothin' to do with me."
(He moves to leave)
Tifa "So! You're really leaving!? You're just going to walk right out ignoring your childhood friend!?"
Cloud "What...?"
Tifa "You forgot the promise, too."
Cloud "Promise?"
Notice that Cloud ignores Tifa’s request to straighten things up with everyone for her. He also tells her that he doesn’t care about AVALANCHE, and moves to leave three times despite Tifa’s requests for him to stay. Cloud has also forgotten about the Promise when Tifa first brings it up to him. These and similar passages suggest that Cloud is long over his crush on her.
Also, time means nothing for two people develop love. So Cloud and Aerith knowing eachother for a little time span doesn't prevent them from falling in love. And if you ask me, the two weeks + days that Cloud and Aerith knew each other just makes their love all the more beautiful and bittersweet. I mean, Cloud only knew Aerith for a short period of time, in yet she's now forever engraved in his heart for all of eternity? They only knew each other for a few weeks, but he already has undying feelings for her? They only knew each other for two weeks but they were able to build a two person world, in which Tifa was jealous of?
Yeah, they only knew each other for two weeks, but seeing all of the romantic and beautiful things they accomplished, I say it just adds to their tragic love.
In a matter of fact, for Cloud to have her engraved in his heart, have undying feeling/love for her, build a two person world together, and build a bond no one else had with each other, I'd say it's pretty darn impossible to develope all of that in a short time period AND NOT be in love with the person.
Of course in THAT situation his prediction wouldn't mean a thing. But Cloud's not with anyone and he definitely isn't married, either. Cloud's a single man.
The thing to pay attention to is that SE decided to make a scene like this occur between them for their future and their relationship. If Cloud and Aerith weren't supposed to be in love with each other, why make their future be a great one withe each other, and why make their stars perfect?
And yes, Cait Sith's predictions hold a deep meaning to them, as said by Nomura.
Besides, the quote says;
Caption:Cat Sith's lines which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith's wedding now makes it more painful. -FFVII Ultimania Omega
If the prediction of their wedding wasn't supposed to be taken seriously, why does it make her death more painful? Because now, their wedding can't happen.
Connection? are you talking of her knowing Cloud's past? If so, that's not true. Zack knows of Cloud's past, too. Honestly, I'd much rather have a bond or two person world than a connection as weak as just knowing where you came from. And Cloud and Aerith share a bond Tifa doesn't have with Cloud, which she is jealous of. Cloud and Aerith built their own two person world, and excluded Tifa causing her to become jealous. (as stated by DISMANTLED on Tifa's page)
a.) FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.(Tifa's profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania)
b.)When Cloud and Aerith exclude Tifa, her emotion is sometimes becoming of jealousy. There seems to be complicated feelings that exceed mere childhood friends toward Cloud. In the second half of the story, her tone becomes more feminine. The event in the Forgotten City was the turning point. She began to face her own feelings honestly. - DISMANTLED
c.) Friend and rival?
Complicated feelings toward Aerith
Both of them share feelings for Cloud. Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had developed a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in Advent Children, two years after Aerith had departed the world.
~ 10th Anniversary Ultimania
The bit about her opinion, and I've thought this always, is true. It is only Tifa's opinion that matters. She's the only one alive that can prove he was real. But if that's romantic, what about in DISMANTLED when Cloud asks Aerith who he is?
Cloud: "Aerith is dead. Right in front of my eyes... I couldn't stop Sephiroth. She was in my reach, and all I could do is stand there and watch as his sword ran through her.
All the time Aerith used to smile, like a flower. But, Aerith won't smile anymore. I won't be able to hear her innocent laugh again.
What did she do? Why did Aerith have to die? What am I supposed to do about this anger, it's endlessly boiling and burning up my body. Yet at the same time, I was afraid. Like a chill coming from the core of my body. When I found Aerith there, offering up some prayer, what did I try to do?
If my friends hadn't stopped me at that moment, I would have struck my sword down on Aerith. It was something separate from my own will... it was like when I gave Sephiroth the Black Materia--- Who am I? I'm EX-SOLDIER Cloud... right? Tell me, Aerith---"
That's not true. There is evidence. Evidence that Cloud has his own room, evidence that Tifa and him never share a bed--what more proof do we need to prove they don't share rooms like normal couples would if they've admitted their feelings and had sex on pointy rocks.
Yes, but Aerith's dead. What's the excuse for Cloud not kissing Tifa, despite her admitting her feelings more than once, oh, and her being alive, too?
There's literally nothing stopping Cloud from getting with Tifa, whether that's kissing her or hugging her, we haven't seen Cloud do either to Tifa. So, if he loves her and they admited their love for each other under the highwind, why no kiss scene? Why have separate rooms? It's not like anything is preventing him from being with her... so why not show a fluffy kiss scene between the two? If I can be frank, we haven't seen them kiss or anything because... Cloud doesn't love her.
She knows the details about Cloud's past in Nibelhiem... Aerith is still the one he has engraved in his heart for all of eternity. And Aerith is the one Cloud developes a special bond with, not to mention a two person world.
If Cloud didn't love Aerith, she wouldn't be engraved in his heart, nor would he have an undying feeling for her that differs from platonic love, nor would he have a special bond with her he shares with no one else, nor would he create a two person world with Aerith.
(grrr, argh took a while to type up)
Mod edit: Merged posts
But please let`s face it, she never even really met the real cloud strife.
Maiden said:She was happy. She was happy that she now knew the real Cloud and was able to watch over him, even though it was just for a short while.
According to Maiden of the Planet, she got to know him during the Lifestream Event and her feelings for him didn't change at all.
Also you said she never met the real Cloud... before she died right? I'm not sure are you trying to say that her feelings should be suspect because she didn't know Cloud enough? I just want to be sure before I respond.
I know and I'm asking if you're saying she can't truly love him because she doesn't know him.Sorry if i misworded, what i meant was that she dosent know he real cloud because of that quote saying he only ever opened his heart to tifa and whatnot.
But, for him to be in a promised land that means it's his. I don't think people can visit others promised lands, right?It's not his promised land, it's the promised land.
Also, Que, I think you need to be repped before you can give out more rep as well. =)
But, for him to be in a promised land that means it's his. I don't think people can visit others promised lands, right?
And no, I've repped her twice.
EDIT: The point is, even after the highwind scene, Cloud still tells Tifa he wants to meet Aerith in "the promised land". That's very significant.
No... Cloud says
"The promised land... I think I can meet her... there"
end quote.
Notice the "I" Cloud used, why would he say he thinks he can meet her there if he wasn't intending on going there?