Defending XIII, not hating any other titles

[tiornys]

And controlling the leader does very little, all three might aswell be AI.

The problem is, whether you're using autobattle or not, it will still feel like you're using auto-battle. The only difference is not manually switching paradigms and not manually controlling one character.

Setting aside my disagreements about the degree of difficulty and "need" to carefully choose attacks in earlier FF titles, I'm going to focus here, because we're never going to agree on anything about FFXIII's combat if we disagree on this point. And I most certainly disagree: controlling the leader offers very significant gains over the AI. I could talk about various tactics and strategies that are enabled or improved by manual control, but I think it's more effective if I offer some demonstrations:

Gameplay/boss spoilers:
Enki&Enlil: http://youtu.be/vuTBBUaC0rw
Adamanchelid: http://youtu.be/dXioIoAa0eU
Adamanchelid again: http://youtu.be/DP5fuPHh4lI
Dahaka: http://youtu.be/u5V53b5X__Q
Chapter 11 end boss: http://youtu.be/E7Pb40TN2EY
Ch.11 end boss again: http://youtu.be/Z5kH1ID9qEI
Chapter 12 end boss: http://youtu.be/I-5dEeAQ3ko

It's actually alot different than the Attack, Cure, and the occasional magic attack scenario you speak of. Why? You the player have control of your entire party. You determine what happens in the battle. You don't control 1 person and hope that the other 2 dip shits take care of their end as well. There is no option to have it Automatically played out for you.
Seriously what are people going to gravitate towards? The Auto Battle feature? Or the skills/spells feature? Sure there's some that will manually do all of their stuff. But I can guarantee alot more will just play it out with Auto Battle.
And you ask if I just do the bare minimum with all of my RPG's? No I don't. I do everything to the maximum and take full advantage of everything. Why is it different with this one? Because XIII is FUCKING TRASH! There is nothing engaging in this game in the least. Seriously, why take time to develop a strategy for fights when the computer takes care of it for you? Why do more when this game is a stinking pile of shit and doesn't engage the player with a story that grabs at you? Why do more when there are no characters that you feel for and develop a love for?

Plainly put. I hate the combat system in this game. There is your simple answer to your question. THAT is why I don't bother with anything. And me thinking the missions were going to be hard I gave them a try. And once again I was disappointed. I 5 starred 65 missions in 1 try, Vorcingetorix taking me 2. I'd say thats pretty fucking good and I'm entirely satisfied with that.

Maybe the difference is simply that I feel plenty of control from giving the AI characters orders (by assigning them roles and through various tactical measures) without needing to input every action for myself (don't get me wrong; I definitely think that in-battle character switching would have greatly improved the system).

And hey, if you hate the combat and consequently don't want to invest anything into it, cool. I admit, I was pretty annoyed at various aspects of combat myself the first time I finished the game, and I wasn't initially inclined to do much in the way of postgame content. Two things saved the game for me: first, I got a chance to see what the battle system was capable of by watching some expert level play on YouTube, and second, I noticed that Sazh and Vanille had much better ability sets than Fang and Hope for chapters 10 and 11. I decided to replay the game so I could try using them instead, and I found the Lightning/Sazh/Vanille party to be a lot more fun for most fights than the Lightning/Fang/Hope party.

If you're willing, I suspect you could get a lot of enjoyment from the game by taking on the missions pre-postgame. That requires a lot more engagement with the battle system and taking advantage of your full strategic resources (party composition, leader choice/tactical control, paradigm setups, accessory/weapon setups, TP usage). Also, you might enjoy the last two vids in my previous post.




Mod edit:
*posts merged*

 

[Zeroxys]

I mean im pretty much done with this argument, but i had to put in a lil info that Razzberry & Beatrix dont see and that your arguments are indeed good, but a lil flawed. You both say You can just sit there & spam auto attack & that isnt fun.. If i recall correctly, thats how alot of the battles in FF are played out, as far as random encounters go. You just hit X/A to choose attack, then click on the monster you want to defeat. i Mean especially in 7-9 thats all i did when i entered a wild encounter was just mash X the whole time & not even look at my tv cuz i knew in 3-4 urns the battle would b over. Just food for thought.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Setting aside my disagreements about the degree of difficulty and "need" to carefully choose attacks in earlier FF titles, I'm going to focus here, because we're never going to agree on anything about FFXIII's combat if we disagree on this point. And I most certainly disagree: controlling the leader offers very significant gains over the AI. I could talk about various tactics and strategies that are enabled or improved by manual control, but I think it's more effective if I offer some demonstrations:

Gameplay/boss spoilers:
Enki&Enlil: http://youtu.be/vuTBBUaC0rw
Adamanchelid: http://youtu.be/dXioIoAa0eU
Adamanchelid again: http://youtu.be/DP5fuPHh4lI
Dahaka: http://youtu.be/u5V53b5X__Q
Chapter 11 end boss: http://youtu.be/E7Pb40TN2EY
Ch.11 end boss again: http://youtu.be/Z5kH1ID9qEI
Chapter 12 end boss: http://youtu.be/I-5dEeAQ3ko

if you're setting that aside, theres no point bringing videos. That is the main point of how flawed the system really is. Regardless you seem to think you have full-control despite of you indirectly control an entire party or not, which is the problem.

The idea of controlling full-party allows you to actually build your skills and quick thinking. the thing is, it doesn't take much of an expert to do what the people on youtube did (disregarding the 5 star ratings because thats not what RPGs should be about and only gives an excuse to why this game is so easy). thats something vastly different from ffXIII and previous FFs.

And thats not what FF should be about or any other RPG for that matter. this would be fine in age of empire, but not a limited party such as 3 players. The 5 star-ranking system of battles is only making the best of the worst situation. its like you beat any level any-way, but theres a certain way to do it better.

i know it sounds like an exagerration and just plain mean, but a monkey can play this game just by training to press x and R at the right time.

I mean im pretty much done with this argument, but i had to put in a lil info that Razzberry & Beatrix dont see and that your arguments are indeed good, but a lil flawed. You both say You can just sit there & spam auto attack & that isnt fun.. If i recall correctly, thats how alot of the battles in FF are played out, as far as random encounters go. You just hit X/A to choose attack, then click on the monster you want to defeat. i Mean especially in 7-9 thats all i did when i entered a wild encounter was just mash X the whole time & not even look at my tv cuz i knew in 3-4 urns the battle would b over. Just food for thought.

That is absolutely NOT what i'm saying. I'm saying that whether you're using auto-battle or not, the pacing between manual and auto-battle will differ. and thats not the sensation you get in XIII. auto-battle is allowing the AI to do it for you, in which case for XIII, it's basically asking you "let me press the buttons for you and you'll know i'll get it right". ff12 also had auto-battle, but again these type of things are optional. With XIII you just press less buttons and do less quick-thinking other than what is needed.

any attack will work on these monsters, so theres no point pressing any directional buttoms to manuever through the command menu. (hence spamming X and R) the first attack you see is fine.And lets not confuse this game for an action-based game, spamming X or any basic attack button on an action RPG is fine because its all in real time. Chrono Trigger comes to mind when i play this game, because it takes some inspiration off of it but doesn't take what made the game engaging. for example: Chrono Trigger had a mix of magic and physical attacks among all the characters and their were plenty of monsters that were weakened to specific magic or phyical, and some even healed by certain magic or physical attacks.

but that game had no strong varying monsters, nor enough space to actually play the game significantly better and realize you are. So auto-battle is like manual.

 

[tiornys]

the thing is, it doesn't take much of an expert to do what the people on youtube did (disregarding the 5 star ratings because thats not what RPGs should be about and only gives an excuse to why this game is so easy).

From this, it sounds like you make no distinction between lucking into a win, winning poorly, or winning in style, just so long as you win. Is that correct?

 

[Razberry Knight]

From this, it sounds like you make no distinction between lucking into a win, winning poorly, or winning in style, just so long as you win. Is that correct?

Not exactly, there is a difference when you win efficiently, and when you win poorly. And when you win poorly, it costs you. however, with XIII, i don't get much of a difference.

for example: it might take 5 blizzagas to kill one enemy when it could also take 2 thundagas. it will definitely cost more MP and its best to kill more efficiently to save more MP or AP depending on the attack and game. However, XIII doesn't really have strong variation of monsters, nor strong variation of attacks within each paradigm.

Not only that but the game is set up to win 90% of the time without any need to level grind (probably why its set up to be incredibly linear).

for every FF game i believe in winning efficiently, winning poorly, losing like a newbie, and the "you had a good momentum but wasn't good enough to win" type of lost. I sometimes believe in "lucked out" and sometimes in "winning in style" but only for distinct games where i had the option of unique overkill attacks and thats not really what XIII offers me. theres not much variation of style to choose from, all of them look the same, and the AI control doesn't really allow me to appreciate every single attack they make. and as soon as you play, you can tell the attacks are different, but they simply don't leave an impact. the only thing it has to offer is gestalt mode for winning with style. But stille often times doesn't really offer much.

But XIII just didn't leave any room other than the minor tactic you need to gain 5 stars (not to win in general), but not enough tactic to win in general. Thats the problem. The game is telling me "ok, here's the catch: its very easy to win. BUT theres a ranking system to how well you win. still find it interesting?" and worst they don't tell me that "there's no permanent reward for winning it better after you beat the game, so replay value isn't there."

 

[tiornys]

for every FF game i believe in winning efficiently, winning poorly, losing like a newbie, and the "you had a good momentum but wasn't good enough to win" type of lost. I sometimes believe in "lucked out" and sometimes in "winning in style" but only for distinct games where i had the option of unique overkill attacks and thats not really what XIII offers me. theres not much variation of style to choose from, all of them look the same, and the AI control doesn't really allow me to appreciate every single attack they make. and as soon as you play, you can tell the attacks are different, but they simply don't leave an impact. the only thing it has to offer is gestalt mode for winning with style. But stille often times doesn't really offer much.

Ok. From various things you've said here and in other threads, I believe you are suffering from a common misconception. Namely, that the only (reasonable) way to kill enemies is to stagger them. And I have to say, if "stagger, kill, next" really were the extent of FFXIII's strategy, I would probably dislike the battle system as much as you do (and if I'm wrong, mea culpa; the rest of the post is written under this assumption).

But that's not the only strategy. In fact, it's not even a good strategy against the majority of encounters.

To back up that assertion, I'm going to have to into at least some detail. It's blatantly obvious that FFXIII's baseline damage amounts are poor compared with enemy HP totals. Damage amplification is absolutely necessary for efficient victories. By focusing on the stagger mechanic, you've overlooked numerous options for achieving that damage amplification. Here's a list of the most common damage multipliers, with the percentage multiplier listed alongside:

1. The Commando role (x200%-280%)
2. Bravery and Faith (x140%)
3. Deprotect and Deshell (x189%)
4. Creation and exploitation of elemental weaknesses, including the use of En-spells and Imperil (x200%)
5. The chain gauge (x100%-999.9%)

Now, the typical enemy staggers when the chain reaches something between 120% and 250%, which means the chain of a freshly staggered enemy is usually between 220% and 350%. A number of variables now come into play--how many COMs vs. RAVs are employed post-stagger, how many rounds it takes to kill the staggered enemy, etc.--but as a reasonable simplification we're looking at Commandos dealing damage at somewhere between 250% and 500% chain to achieve a kill. Factoring in the COM role bonus, the damage amplification level is roughly between 600% and 1200%.

Assuming the enemy has or can be given an elemental weakness, I can get the same level of damage amplification without touching the chain gauge. A Commando enhanced with Bravery and Enfire will deal about 600% of base damage against an enemy weak to Fire. Add Deprotect, and the damage amplification is about 1150%. Note that these multipliers compound with the chain gauge; 125% chain will improve the overall damage to ~750% without Deprotect or ~1450% with it. Note here an important principle: the chain gauge multiplies damage even when the enemy is not staggered.

A COM, Bravery, and 300% chain is 924% damage. A RAV hitting a weakness, Deshell, and 200% chain is 756% damage. COM + Faith + Deshell = 582% damage. COM + Faith + Deshell + 200% chain = 1164% damage. All kinds of combinations can get you into the "killing range" of the average enemy. Which combinations are best? That is where we begin to find strategy and tactics.

SYN buffs like Bravery and Enfire are quick to apply, long lasting, and enhance a character against all enemies. SAB debuffs like Deprotect and Imperil can take a round or two to inflict, don't usually last as long as buffs, do last longer than a stagger, and weaken an enemy for all allies. Chain build-up is slowed by chain resistance pre-stagger, builds unhindered post-stagger, offers diminishing returns as it increases (going from 100% to 200% doubles your damage, but you need to go from 200% to 400% to double it again), requires constant maintenance pre-stagger, and resets after 45 seconds or less once stagger is achieved.

So we want to use buffs and COMs against multiple enemies, especially when those enemies are weak to an element. We want to use debuffs plus chain and/or COMs against isolated opponents. Chain and stagger is excellent against enemies with low chain resistance and low stagger points, while enemies with high stagger points might merit a mere 200% chain and other measures.

Against tougher enemies, we can start putting everything together to achieve ridiculous levels of damage amplification. COMs + Bravery + Deprotect + Imperil (to create elemental weakness) + Enfire + 350% chain = 4,075% damage, an excellent recipe for the rapid destruction of Barthandelus (who staggers at 250%). Against the final boss, the same recipe can be enhanced by maximum chain to reach 11,641% damage.

You said there was no variation among FFXIII's enemies; I vehemently disagree, and hopefully this discussion has begun to illustrate why.

You also said the attacks don't have any impact on you. You said this in response to the vids I posted:

the thing is, it doesn't take much of an expert to do what the people on youtube did

I have to wonder: did you even watch the vids? Especially with the last two vids, I definitely feel a sense of visceral satisfaction watching those massive damage numbers pile on top of each other.

This post is starting to become absurdly long, so I'll stop shortly. I just want to point out that I've only outlined here some of the strategies for increasing your damage output. I did not mention all of the damage multipliers, did not talk about the deeper interactions between SABs and the chain, and did not touch on single target vs. multi-target considerations. I also did not discuss defensive measures, choosing which characters to use, choosing which character to control (and effective manual command selection), how to build effective paradigms and strong paradigm decks, proper use (and upgrading) of accessories and weapons, or effective management of Items and TP.

All of these are elements of strategy, offering numerous different ways to play the game (or at least, ways to fight the battles) and tons of scope for improving your performance.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Ok. From various things you've said here and in other threads, I believe you are suffering from a common misconception. Namely, that the only (reasonable) way to kill enemies is to stagger them. And I have to say, if "stagger, kill, next" really were the extent of FFXIII's strategy, I would probably dislike the battle system as much as you do (and if I'm wrong, mea culpa; the rest of the post is written under this assumption).

focus on the topic at hand. which is just my comment. i didn't mention stagger, stagger comes more often and unintentional. And, the game is simply "kill, some various tedious options that don't really improve on anything, next"

But that's not the only strategy. In fact, it's not even a good strategy against the majority of encounters.

stagger, kill, next is just a very basic way to describe the process of the game. in reality, obviously the "strategy" is use offensive paradigms then use defensive paradigms when your hurrting to heal. And worst is during your paradigm shift, its possible to water down attacks being hit onto you.The beginning of the game, its overbearingly long tutorial already teaches you specific strategies, and its universal.

To back up that assertion, I'm going to have to into at least some detail. It's blatantly obvious that FFXIII's baseline damage amounts are poor compared with enemy HP totals. Damage amplification is absolutely necessary for efficient victories. By focusing on the stagger mechanic, you've overlooked numerous options for achieving that damage amplification. Here's a list of the most common damage multipliers, with the percentage multiplier listed alongside:

yes, but the "efficiency" is low. You would actually have to "try" to get 2 stars.

Now, the typical enemy staggers when the chain reaches something between 120% and 250%, which means the chain of a freshly staggered enemy is usually between 220% and 350%. A number of variables now come into play--how many COMs vs. RAVs are employed post-stagger, how many rounds it takes to kill the staggered enemy, etc.--but as a reasonable simplification we're looking at Commandos dealing damage at somewhere between 250% and 500% chain to achieve a kill. Factoring in the COM role bonus, the damage amplification level is roughly between 600% and 1200%.

yeah, but all that is already chained to paradigms, its not like you wont build upto it. The game was suppose to use paradigms, and when players embrace it from the beginning, you already fall into this tedious universal strategy. the chain will be built.

I'm sure you need character customization later on, but considering their all wrapped in paradigms, about 6 characters to work with, it wont be that hard to find.

Missing the point. i'll say it slowly.

the game is already set up to be easy. no challenge other than optional ones.

 

[tiornys]

focus on the topic at hand. which is just my comment. i didn't mention stagger, stagger comes more often and unintentional. And, the game is simply "kill, some various tedious options that don't really improve on anything, next"

If you're only killing one enemy at a time, you're doing it wrong.

stagger, kill, next is just a very basic way to describe the process of the game. in reality, obviously the "strategy" is use offensive paradigms then use defensive paradigms when your hurrting to heal. And worst is during your paradigm shift, its possible to water down attacks being hit onto you.The beginning of the game, its overbearingly long tutorial already teaches you specific strategies, and its universal.

You are glossing over a large variety of options about how you conduct your offensive, and ignoring numerous defensive tactics that have nothing to do with healing.

Missing the point. i'll say it slowly.

the game is already set up to be easy. no challenge other than optional ones.

If you consider beating the game without grinding to be an optional challenge, then sure. How is this different from any other FF game? They are all set up to be easy outside of optional challenges.

 

[Razberry Knight]

yeah i glossed them over because i never needed them. lets not forget that paradigm shifting also provides some defense. alsothe difference between ff xiii from all of the others is the fact that you do need to level grind whereas xii you dont. xiii is a breeze.also the game is sooo linear there is simply no motive to gain them. and a game incredibly linear as xiii couldve easily featured some some options that would allow new game plus. but it doesnt.

 

[Linnaete]

I dunno, out of FFXIII and its sequel, I'll have to say that the former does a better job in terms of actual balancing, sans the occasional difficulty spikes that greet initially unprepared players. I don't feel that FFXIII is any worse than other games in terms of difficulty. It's FFXIII-2 that - perhaps because of the lack of a Crystarium cap - I find to be ridiculously easy most of the time. Now that game barely encourages the player to shift paradigms because two Ravagers and a Commando can pretty much maul through nearly everyone in the main game except for some sidequest boss fights with no real problems. Synergists and Saboteurs become very useful, if not essential, in FFXIII. In FFXIII-2, they're significantly nerfed and may as well inconsequentially be forgotten about.

FFXIII's capping of the Crystarium rigidly preserves some balance where FFXIII-2 falls short on. If the latter has a hard difficulty, that would be the ideal way to play through the game. It would definitely be more preferable to the overly claustrophobic and dictating nature of FFXIII's approach.

Of course, if given the choice, I wouldn't have any Stagger system, and I would include some form of method (a Gambit-lite method?) to help determine positioning of the characters in battle. There's only so long you can watch a regular battle go on for because the bollocks of a Stagger bar is taking five minutes to fill up, despite the best work of Ravagers, while area effect attacks arbitrarily hit party members because they're too stupid to NOT walk straight into the line of fire.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Unless every FF-game wasa a breeze or you simply had a hard time with XIII as much as any other. as for me.

also note that its completely linear, so "most" of the level grinding is going to be in the middle of point A to point B and occasional going back and forth. but tyhe game made it so the lack of towns wouldn't be a problem.


all of it was designed to get exactly what you need from those points. it's practically like Crisis Core. it's almost exactly like crisis core. the difference being, you get a reward when you complete the game, and new game + options too.

 

[tiornys]

yeah i glossed them over because i never needed them. lets not forget that paradigm shifting also provides some defense. alsothe difference between ff xiii from all of the others is the fact that you do need to level grind whereas xii you dont. xiii is a breeze.also the game is sooo linear there is simply no motive to gain them. and a game incredibly linear as xiii couldve easily featured some some options that would allow new game plus. but it doesnt.

Wait. You think you need to level grind in other FF games? I can personally attest that this is not the case from FFVI onwards (possible exception for the MMOs). In fact, I think they can all be completed on minimum XP challenges (FFXIII included), but there are a couple that I'm not sure about.

FFXIII's capping of the Crystarium rigidly preserves some balance where FFXIII-2 falls short on. If the latter has a hard difficulty, that would be the ideal way to play through the game. It would definitely be more preferable to the overly claustrophobic and dictating nature of FFXIII's approach.

Hard mode would be preferable, but in its absence we can come up with various user-defined challenges to make things harder and allow more of the battle system to be relevant. Are you interested in that kind of thing?

 

[Razberry Knight]

yeah you do in several ff games. also it offers free roam so half the time your exploring you dont know your level grinding. And there's also dungeons with new enemies that are difficult. You don't have an universal paradigm shift system that could work because certain attacks could actually heal a monster. ffx may be a different story but i personally had to level grind for ffviii trhough ffix and ffxii. but even worst is that xiii doesnt really offer much freedom between the story to even want to play it again. Its beginning/end. And when you beat it, that's it.

for example,

in crisis core there were events in the story that if you didnt get to do them, you would miss out on things further in the story and you wouldn't be able to see them again until you played it on new game+. Crisis Core also didn't offer these things on the side, they were in the middle of the story. Its sad to say that crisis core is better when it comes to that.

 

[tiornys]

I really don't see what's so different between using trial-and-error or Scan (or guesswork) to figure out which elements an enemy absorbs in a game like FFVIII, and the trial-and-error or Libra approach in FFXIII (yes, the AI can and does occasionally heal an enemy, but will immediately stop using that element once the absorption is known). Maybe my memory is just good?

It's true that free exploration lends itself to a certain amount of extra grinding, especially if you spend a lot of time "off-path". Nevertheless, I've beaten FFVI, FFVII, FFTactics, FFVIII, FFIX, FFX, FFXII, and FFXIII without deviating from the direct story path and without grinding. I believe I did the same with FFIV, but my one playthrough of that game occurred entirely within 48 total hours (I was borrowing it on a short time frame), and I don't remember a lot of details. I tend to play FF games at least twice, with one run as a deliberate, dedicated storyline playthrough to preserve some amount of challenge in the latter stages of the games. I started doing this after my first playthrough of FFVI, in which I did almost everything and was so overpowered by the time I finished the game that I cake-walked the final dungeon and crushed the four-part final boss sequence in under four rounds. You may have personally felt that grinding was necessary for those games, but that hardly constitutes an objective need for grinding in them.

Aside from a potential desire to re-experience the story, most of FFXIII's replay value comes from enjoyment of and improvement at the combat system and/or self-imposed challenges. Since you don't seem to care about doing better than "good enough", I agree that it has very little else to draw you back in.

 

[Razberry Knight]

I've played those games aswell, and i've gotten stuck a couple of times ( i actually got stuck in FFDimensions alot more than any other FF). You still haven't played FFVII and that one has the most difficult boss ever.

regardless, the difference being, FFXIII has two thirds of the game being AI controlled, with you only manually controlling your character. Yes paradigm shift does the job for you. but in the beginning of the game, it's so slow paced, that paradigm shift shouldn't even be necessary. One can manually control all 3. So unlike every other FF game, gaining momentum in battle is much easier in FFXIII then any other game out there.

with XIII you have less options to do the same impact, the "strategy" can be executed much quicker than normal 1 by 1 battle option. trial and error for the other games offers more "error" as for XIII doesn't offer that.

And that's simply what i don't want. i don't want a "personal" reward such as improving "how" i play the game, because i'll win regardless. Other FFs forced you to think of new strategies. And i don't think its good memory to remember how "easy" they were. At the time i was also new to RPGs (JRPGs to be exact) and playing the older ones with the new ones at the same time offered me alot of room to improve. But with XIII it was so noob friendly. I didn't have to "think" at all to play it. Because every outcome led me to win.

playing it better seems so pointless if i get most of the same outcome. For example: if the game offered a 70-100% 5 star rating reward through the entire game beating it, i would definitely consider replay value. But it doesn't have that.

 

[tiornys]

I've played those games aswell, and i've gotten stuck a couple of times ( i actually got stuck in FFDimensions alot more than any other FF). You still haven't played FFVII and that one has the most difficult boss ever.

Say what? Check again:

Nevertheless, I've beaten FFVI, FFVII, FFTactics, FFVIII, FFIX, FFX, FFXII, and FFXIII

Ruby and Emerald are buff; aside from them, I don't remember any FFVII bosses being all that difficult.

Other FFs forced you to think of new strategies.

By and large, I do not find this to be true. I find that most fights in most FF games are efficiently dealt with by very straight-forward strategies, whereas winning efficiently in FFXIII actually does require me to adjust my strategy on a constant basis (even when fighting the same enemies, a significant increase in my character development can change the strategy I want to use--not so much in other FFs). In other words, efficient victories in FFXIII are harder to achieve than efficient victories in most FF, but serviceable victories in FFXIII are easier to achieve than efficient victories in most FF. Perhaps the source of our disagreement is simply FFXIII's lack of resource management. I still care about winning efficiently even without having to worry about HP, mana, etc. outside of battles, while you do not.

playing it better seems so pointless if i get most of the same outcome. For example: if the game offered a 70-100% 5 star rating reward through the entire game beating it, i would definitely consider replay value. But it doesn't have that.

Really? If the game gave you a pat on the back, you would gain enjoyment from an accomplishment that was otherwise meaningless to you? Fair enough; it's clear that you and I approach gaming in rather different ways. We may have to agree to disagree.

 

[Cardinal Copia]

Venturing a little off topic here but I have to tell you Tiorny's that I did in fact re buy XIII. I was watching those videos you posted and when I watched the Barty 40 second speed run and I heard his song hit it struck something that said "Dude get this again."
So here I am playing a game again that I've been slamming.... :fail:

 

[Razberry Knight]

Say what? Check again:


Ruby and Emerald are buff; aside from them, I don't remember any FFVII bosses being all that difficult.


By and large, I do not find this to be true. I find that most fights in most FF games are efficiently dealt with by very straight-forward strategies, whereas winning efficiently in FFXIII actually does require me to adjust my strategy on a constant basis (even when fighting the same enemies, a significant increase in my character development can change the strategy I want to use--not so much in other FFs). In other words, efficient victories in FFXIII are harder to achieve than efficient victories in most FF, but serviceable victories in FFXIII are easier to achieve than efficient victories in most FF. Perhaps the source of our disagreement is simply FFXIII's lack of resource management. I still care about winning efficiently even without having to worry about HP, mana, etc. outside of battles, while you do not.


Really? If the game gave you a pat on the back, you would gain enjoyment from an accomplishment that was otherwise meaningless to you? Fair enough; it's clear that you and I approach gaming in rather different ways. We may have to agree to disagree.

Please, don't insult me. Having an actual reward than personal challenges is something most players want. It's not called getting a pat in the back it's giving you motivation to embrace the system for what it is (or what it should be). How is XIII a good game if most of it is mainly driven by you're personal challenges? That is ridiculously sad. I bet I can enjoy XIII simply by putting myself the challenge of "playing it as much as I can without killing myself". But you can't expect ANYONE to enjoy a game for something that should've been there but isn't. Crisis Core was even more linear than XIII and had very little areas to go around. But the game knew it was linear, so it added more mechanics to actually make it worth replaying.

Winning efficiently is just as easy as any other FF game because two third's of your party are controlled through paradigms, one third you control and as you level up and complete the crystarium and play the story, it doesn't take a lot of effort to "finding the right combination". But winning sufficiently just as much of reward than others. And what's worst, you usually get 3-5 stars. Winning sufficiently is much difficult in other FFs (as you said) but that's the part that makes them better than FFXIII. I never died once in XIII, but in other FF's you get that issue once or twice through the process of going through a level grinding (especially when i just don't feel like grinding).

I don't buy that other FFs are just as easy. You control your entire party in those games, making command choice much more time consuming and nerve racking. Even if you had a simple strategy, executing it was always the moment of truth. With xiii, it's all dumbed down for you. And paradigms are even set up to chain attacks.

 

[tiornys]

Please, don't insult me. Having an actual reward than personal challenges is something most players want. It's not called getting a pat in the back it's giving you motivation to embrace the system for what it is (or what it should be).

I apologize for inadvertently insulting you. That wasn't my intent (I actually edited my first reaction before posting because I thought it sounded insulting when I read the post preview, but I clearly didn't edit it enough), and I may well have interpreted your comment differently from what you meant.

As for the rest, I'm sticking with "agree to disagree."

Venturing a little off topic here but I have to tell you Tiorny's that I did in fact re buy XIII. I was watching those videos you posted and when I watched the Barty 40 second speed run and I heard his song hit it struck something that said "Dude get this again."
So here I am playing a game again that I've been slamming.... :fail:

Cool! Nothing wrong with playing something that has flaws worth slamming--and FFXIII definitely has flaws--as long as it also has strong points. I saw you're planning to do an NCU run--hopefully that'll be fun! I don't know if I'll ever try that challenge; I'm a bit intimidated by the Destrudo dodge and the grinding. On the other hand, I do have some boss strategies I'd like to test NCU....

 

[Cardinal Copia]

Cool! Nothing wrong with playing something that has flaws worth slamming--and FFXIII definitely has flaws--as long as it also has strong points. I saw you're planning to do an NCU run--hopefully that'll be fun! I don't know if I'll ever try that challenge; I'm a bit intimidated by the Destrudo dodge and the grinding. On the other hand, I do have some boss strategies I'd like to test NCU....

Yeah for some whatever reason I up and decided to do a NCU run through the game. I'm not looking forward to all the game overs and the 40 minutes boss fights. It's definitely intimidating when you think about the idea because you think of how tough some enemies are when you're leveled, and then you think of no upgrades stat wise? It spells trouble lol.