Did Aeris love Cloud or Zack?

[Dragon Mage]

Forgive me, tangents like these simply draw me in. I shall have to make a new thread...

Yes, please, back on topic. I have said all I've needed to say on this matter. I only wait for someone to reply to it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Not that I was trying to hide my identity to start with, but yes, you must be quite proud of yourself for having made that little connection. I like this nick a lot better than I do HD. ^^

Proud? Not really. Not of something as trivial as making a connection based on matching key points. No more than forensics would be to match two fingerprints.

Cloud's awkwardness is certainly not an aspect of Zack...is it?

No, but it's also not mentioned until After the big reveal that Aerith was primary focusing on the Zack-y parts of Cloud's adopted Persona.

I need quotes and details on what these 'unique' traits are.

The narrator tells us this is what Aerith considers make Cloud Unique. The majority of these settle into the lifestream and call forth Zack, who thinks she is recalling him based on those concepts.
Add to that that Cloud is canonically adopting Zack's persona all throughout the time Aerith knew him.

Forgive me, but you'll have to point out the rejection. I see a bandying about and a pointing out of a flaw, not a rejection. I mean, there's not even a set of ellipses in there.
"But whenever you feel lonely, call me Aerith."

"Only if I get really lonely. Goodnight, Zacks."

While it's not a total and outright rejection, it's more of a negative reply than a positive one. It's what a woman would say to a dear friend when she doesn't want his feelings hurt. It's certainly not the type of a reply a woman would give to a man she's digging romantically.

Again, it assumes she's being serious for this one line, when the rest of her conversation with Zack was fond and playful. Heck, it was more akin to flirty banter than anything she shared with Cloud, for freak's sake.

I need quotes. Not sure what you're referring to.

"She saw him as someone full of confidence, cool and had the impression that he would disappear in an instant if she took her eyes off him."
For one.
That what she thought made the 'real' Cloud 'unique' woke up her dead boyfriend whose life Cloud had been emulating, for two.

I really didn't think much of that, especially since their relationship never got to the point where she actually did meet his parents. Meh, Zack never even got to telling his parents who she was. Again their relationship was a light taste of first love. What more proof do you need?

Context. Which CC will provide. No intended slight to Benny, but he's not part of the FFVII inner circle as it were, and if they or a game contradicts what he writes in Maiden, then Maiden loses in that regards.

I need something to back that up.

She actually knew Zack as he really was when she was alive and had a genuine relationship with him. Neither is true with regards to Cloud, and she kept focusing on the Shadow of Her and Zack, to the pointing of trying to cram herself into a copy of that old relationship in her interactions with ZaCloud.

Aerith was clearly saying that while she saw similarities between the two men at first, they're not the same. Seems to me like most of your arguments revolve around the idea that Aerith's words shouldn't be trusted. What reason do you have for not trusting her words?

The fact that her words are later proven to be wrong by the passage where most of what she thinks make Cloud Unique turns out to be Emulated Zackery.

Also, the narrator has already given us the facts...so why not just accept them? Zack was Aerith's light taste of first love and is now a dear friend to her. She loves Cloud more than her first love. There shouldn't be any arguments.

Except that the 'Cloud' she thought she loved was a cipher of said first love. Cloud was lying to himself about who he was, and Aerith got wrapped up in that too.

...guess I'm still waiting for you to name those 'unique' traits that Aerith loves so much about Cloud which had been emulated from Zack.

Have you not read Maiden? Aerith tries to think of what defined the 'real' Cloud, and thinks of things that in her words made him unique. Most of these settle into the lifestream and awaken Zack who thinks she was thinking of him.

Since we're on the topic, and if you ask me, Tifa isn't all that special. Anyone who had been there with Clould in his childhood would have had knowledge of his past and could have restored him.

Possibly, though the question of whether or not Cloud would have let anyone else in is unlikely. I mean, Zack who knew about Cloud long before the Nibleheim incident couldn't do it either.

I really don't know what all the fuss is about or why people are gloating that Aerith didn't restore Cloud. I don't think anyone was expecting her to.

Uh, who's gloating that she didn't? Though as for expecting, the dead being walking Deus Ex's is not without precedent.

Wasn't it optional whether Cloud heard Tifa calling him or not? I was pretty sure it was.

Nope. While the exact line differs between versions, Cloud hears her in both versions. That, however, is less important than his calling to hers.

Where does it say that she sees them as a couple? Is Aerith not allowed to look at two people without it meaning she is seeing them as a couple?

Not by the standards of English or Japanese, no, since when one smiles on a two people, they are a couple, or a pair, or a what have you. It doesn't always include all the connotations, but two people together are a couple, to get literal about the whole mess.

It wasn't total outright rejection, but LIKE that of a rejection...not that it makes that much of a difference. More negative than positive is what I'm getting at.

And yet she kept the boy around for two years after that. Guess she got really lonely then.

Doesn't matter to me how Tifa saw Cloud. Maybe she's lying...

To? No really, who would she be lying to in the narration while looking at a scene of Cloud, Denzel, and Marlene gathered around the table?

Cloud saw himself like a young father where? Cloud saw himself as father and Tifa as mother of the family where?

Irrelevant, since I never said anything of the sort.

Again, SE tells us Cloud is like a big kid himself...so.... *shrugs*

Cloud is like a big kid in some respects. Not all.

I was referring to Cloud's feelings for Tifa...which is unclear as always. If he was confused about her question, obviously, he could not have given us an answer to that question. Is it made clear whether Cloud loves Tifa or not? Of course not.

He didn't give her an answer to that question. He gave an answer to the question she asked after the first one. And yes, it is made clear. She is the subject of his tender memories, of his secret wish. It was her specifically that he wanted to notice him. She and the children are the ones precious to him that he leaves to protect. It is her opinions that are important above all others.

The facts have been laid out in MoTP that Aerith loves Cloud more than her first love and that Zack is now a dear friend to her. To keep arguing and to ignore the answers that have already been dished out to us is to waste time.

It is also laid out in MOTP that the 'Cloud' she loved was a cipher comprised of traits he emulated from Zack with the abilities of Jenova. At best you can argue that she didn't love either man, but rather an accumulation of traits comprising the third 'person' Zacloud, since she doesn't love Zack, but was too focused on the Zacklike traits of Zacloud to really get to know Cloud as he really was.

 

[einlanzer]

Infinite chaos: you ought to go back and re-read Maiden again. Aerith entrusts all the feelings in her heart for Cloud to Tifa. That includes loving him and wanting to be with him forever. That's pretty much kills any chance of a long-distance relationship from Aerith's end - she's a Cloti when all is said and done.

 

[Rogue]

She loved Zack, or just missed him and wanted someone like him around. Other wise having some one act exactly like him would have creeped her out. I know by the game it was really your decision who you wanted to like, but the movie made it obvious that she was Zacks girl.

On another note I dont like how Tifa is looked down on compared to Aerith. Who's better, a bar tender that was Clouds child hood crush, or some girl walking the streets with flowers, who seems to know every guy character in the game already? I would like to think that Aerith was a innocent little flower girl, but come on.

 

[Edward Elric]

for everyone who thinks that aeris loved zack, you really should take the time to read MoTP. you might be surprised by what you read.

 

[Cis]

I remember in AC DVD there was preview (kinda) of FFVII. Cloud and Aerith were having a conversation

Aerith: You are... Are you SOLDIER?
Cloud: How did you know?
Aerith: That strange gleam... So what rank were you?
Cloud: Well you know in SOLDIER. First class...
Aerith: You're kidding. Same.
Cloud: Same as who?
Aerith: The first boy I ever liked. Zack....

 

[Ryushikaze]

for everyone who thinks that aeris loved zack, you really should take the time to read MoTP. you might be surprised by what you read.

And if you reread it carefully, so might you. The "Cloud" Aerith gushed over was a cipher, an emulation of Zack. The majority of the things that made this Cipher unique to Aerith's viewpoint were emulated traits that Cloud took from Zack.

It's hard to love a man when you love things about him that aren't actually his own character traits, but those of someone he was pretending to be.

Also, AG, I'd like to respecfully disagree with the closing of the other thread Regarding Zack's feelings towards. Its question is not identical to this thread's, and I feel it is a worthy topic of discussion.

 

[Serah]

OT for just a moment but Ryu, you constantly seem to always challenge AG. As a moderator of this section, AG is perfectly well entitled to close any thread he deems necessary. People can discuss the whole Aerith loves Zack, did Zack love Aerith, etc...in this thread. There's nothing wrong with that. It all falls into the same subject and there is no need for 2 threads that may go into the exact same discussion. This isn't ACF.

 

[einlanzer]

This is what AG just said a few pages ago:

You can debate fine well who Aerith loves without bringing clouds feelings into it, this thread is not about whether Aeriths feelings for the one she loves is Reciprocated.

You guys are contradicting yourselves, that's why it's getting confusing. Are we allowed to discuss Cloud/Zack's feelings here or not?

 

[Daenerys]

This is what AG just said a few pages ago:

You guys are contradicting yourselves, that's why it's getting confusing. Are we allowed to discuss Cloud/Zack's feelings here or not?

Yet, i was blatently ignored on that anyway, As Tifa and Cloud as a couple is still frequenting the conversation. and you guys have been talking about Cloud and Zacks feelings despite the fact i said it.

 

[einlanzer]

I don't understand. Are you saying it's OK to discuss Cloud and Tifa's relationship here, then?

You guys say you don't want multiple threads, yet the Zack/Aeris thread gets closed and the "What if Aeris never died?" thread, which is clearly a Cloud/Aeris thread, stays. Isn't that part of this discussion too?

I'm not questioning how you guys run the place, but I'd like to get your topic policy straight. That way I don't waste my time posting somewhere that's going to get deleted or locked. Are we having one big Love Square discussion in here?

 

[ChocoBongo]

Same here. I stopped posting here because it seemed arbitrary as to when one of these character debate thread was accepted and when it was not, and as to which characters could be chatted about.

I fail to see how you can discuss Aeris' love for Cloud without discussing Cloud's reciprocated feelings. Same for Zack.

In my experience as a moderator, I've found it is possible to over-moderate a discussion. If a discussion gets nasty, come slap some bottoms, but otherwise, how these characters feel about each other - and identifying how these characters feel about each other - is part of an adult debate, whether anyone feels like its going over old ground or not!

It would help everyone if we knew what you policy is on this front, because it doesn't inhibit a community from posting naturally if they feel their points are going to be deleted/closed, regardless how civil and objective they are offered.

Peace guys.

 

[joeyfinalfantasygod]

My point of view is that Aeris was only in love with Zack but Cloud tried so hard to be Zack that she fell in love with him .Remember Cloud was living Zacks life through out the game his story was Zacks. I think thats why Aeris loved him she saw Zack in Cloud.

 

[PinkDiamond07]

She did NOT love Cloud. She loved Zack, and Cloud reminded her of Zack, so it was just the physical similarities, and the "1st ranking SOLDIER" that reminded her of Zack, thus she had SLIGHT feelings for Cloud.

Oh lord were do you people come from
She loves Cloud ! It states that her ture feelings for Cloud are revealed . While Cloud & Zack shared similarities , she preferred Cloud DUH and the book was called Maiden who Travels The Planet look it up.

Dont go calling people stupid or slow please. SS.

 

[Serene]

^^Seconded. For the record, "Maiden" did not come with the movie. "Case of Barret," "Case of Denzel" and "Case of Tifa" did, but Maiden was not included and in fact was not written by the same author.

And yes, we've all read "Maiden." We've all read that the qualities that Aerith associated with Cloud are actually Zack's. We've all read that, while thinking about what makes Cloud "unique," Aerith's thoughts managed to conjure up Zack. Perhaps Aerith was hurt, lost and confused? As much as her fans like to elevate her to a deity, she actually does have flaws. She doesn't know everything.

 

[Serah]

We've decided to go ahead and create a stickied thread on this subject, so I will be closing this now. Please keep all LTD stuff there. Feel free to discuss the events from FFVII all the way up to AC ^^ Have fun!
http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/final-fantasy-vii/ffvii-ltd-debate-thread-13208.html